Vastin, RK is close, just needs this minor suggestion

[hunter4215]

I want to say that the most recent RK buff was almost exactly what was needed for the class to catch up in DPS. In terms of single target dps on a training Dummy is not far off from other classes. If still argue they need a raw 5-10% damage buff but that’s not the suggestion I want to make.

The suggestion I want to make is actually to change the Lore-Masters’s Benediction skill. The current skill is -10% fire mitigations, and -20% with catmit. If however this could be changed to just -tactical mitigation, it would balance RK’s in raids, because that is still the issue.

RK can do fairly well in three mans or solo content because their writ of lighting at t3 is going to debuff lighting mitigation by 15%. However, every class in a raid scenario gets huge support for their DPS besides the RK. Beorning are debuffing -15% physical mitigation to targets, helping champs, burgs and wardens do a considerable amount of damage. Plus the Warden is either doing 5, 10, or 20 depending on what line they’re in.

By adjusting the LM’s debuff, it doesn’t break anything. Hunters will still do their same DPS and all the physical classes will as well. The only thing this would fix is bringing RK’s actually into raids. If anything this brings in more balance. It would help beorning bee’s a bit and maybe some of the LM’s non fire skills. Besides that it doesn’t totally break any meta or other class balance

Lastly, can there be a way to spread writ of lighting? In raid scenarios it takes like 7 seconds to get a fully tiered up writ of lighting on a target. It makes it pretty difficult for the RK to be able to swap targets fast to a pin, cocoon, mammoth, anything. This hurts their overall contribution to a raid as well. Maybe have essence of winter spread writ? Feels like having a way to spread writ makes a lot of sense for raid context and before AoE skills like vivid or static. This would also make the frost skills have some relevancy since they really don’t at this point

[Joedangod]

They above suggestions aren't bad but if they do get implemented the RK will probably need a nerf to DNF duration and raidwide bubble access outside of Blue.

[hoibideptrai]

DNF is a life saver in 3 man, bubble is the only thing that bring a RK into tier 3+ raid
if you remove that why bring a RK into tier 3+ raid when we can just bring another champ/hunter

[Lunasa]

The suggestion I want to make is actually to change the Lore-Masters’s Benediction skill. The current skill is -10% fire mitigations, and -20% with catmit. If however this could be changed to just -tactical mitigation, it would balance RK’s in raids, because that is still the issue.

...

By adjusting the LM’s debuff, it doesn’t break anything. Hunters will still do their same DPS and all the physical classes will as well.

Hunters will be affected by the proposed change. Fire oil does not turn Hunter's skills into tactical skills, so -tactical mitigation will be of no use for them. However I do like a proposal of adjusting the debuffs other classes bring to a raid in order to strengthen the position of tactical dps.

Update: my mistake here. I was mislead by another LM skill Warding Knowledge which is acting on the damage source rather than the damage type.

[BinaryTertiary]

Hunters will be affected by the proposed change. Fire oil does not turn Hunter's skills into tactical skills, so -tactical mitigation will be of no use for them. However I do like a proposal of adjusting the debuffs other classes bring to a raid in order to strengthen the position of tactical dps.

lol no

fire (and light) oils don't change them to tactical skills that's irrelevant

damage type does change

so it would not be a change that affects hunters negatively. in fact, it benefits light oils

[Joedangod]

DNF is a life saver in 3 man, bubble is the only thing that bring a RK into tier 3+ raid
if you remove that why bring a RK into tier 3+ raid when we can just bring another champ/hunter

Because its DPS should be competitive, if the DPS is competitive you can just y'know, take whatever class someone wants to play.

If RK has competitive DPS and retains access to DNF we end up with that dumb situation we've had before where 90% of a raid group can die and come back via a spam of chain rezzes. Hard pass on that, thanks.

[hunter4215]

Because its DPS should be competitive, if the DPS is competitive you can just y'know, take whatever class someone wants to play.

If RK has competitive DPS and retains access to DNF we end up with that dumb situation we've had before where 90% of a raid group can die and come back via a spam of chain rezzes. Hard pass on that, thanks.

Every class should be at a spot where their DPS is competitive and can be brought along to a raid. RK has 0 place inside a raid unless they're healing, in which that's only really useful in Shelob atm. They don't add to or support any other classes' DPS enough to bring any raid benefits besides their DNF. What encounter are you in when 90% of the raid group needs to be rezzed or dnf? Most raid groups have 1 Bear Rez, 1 Mini Rez, 2 from Red Cappy, 2 from Yellow Cappy, and I'd say 95% of the time, not all those get used. I don't see how DNFs are a pillar of your argument as to why RK's should be kept out of raids lol.

[Brinuw]

I dont think changing BotR would really do anything.
As it is now physical mits can get pretty much reduced to nothing with proper class synergy (AC/Rend/Marked Target/Bees/Penshot). The onky one of those that doesnt effect tact mit as well is Bees, which is the same magnitude as Writ of Lightning (15%) so in theory lightning mits should be in the same boat. If anything just changing Writ of Lightning to a flat tactical mit debuff rather than just lightning mits would give it more synergy over all with the LM, bear, mini, and warden. Sure thats not really increasing rk personal dps but gives them added utility outside DNF.

Also nerf DNF to 1 target while in yellow or red. 2 in blue is fine.

Overal if yellow RK needs any further support I like the idea of having it come from utility rather than just a bump to damage. Could give a +incoming tactical crit chance debuff to skills like Ring of Fire or Coda of Melody without altering the current dps hierarchy too much yet giving RK more of a competetive spot.

[Joedangod]

I don't see how DNFs are a pillar of your argument as to why RK's should be kept out of raids lol.

In a scenario where Yellow RK has Champion equivalent DPS most raid groups would opt to stack Yellow RK's as their DPS instead of the current meta of stacking Champions.

Stacking RK's isn't really subject to diminishing returns like most class stacks are. If I stack two Beornings the second bears bees are mostly wasted, if I stack two Wardens in a group the second Wardens marked/diminished target debuffs are mostly wasted. With two RK's...DNF kinda gains more value as a greater number of raid members are covered.

Sure, DNF doesn't really come across as being valuable right now because we're in a world where characters have received major stat bloat and content isn't scaled accordingly. As soon as difficult content pops up DNF's value will utterly skyrocket. Just look at pre-WotP Rukhor kills on high tiers, plenty of kins had large numbers of their raid group die and be rezzed at the end of that fight. If you've stacked 3 RK's in a group a sole survivor Captain in Last Stand can effectively pick 7+ characters up with a single rez.

Arguing to maintain the impressive defensive support RK offers when DPSing whilst also insisting it should pull top-tier DPS is inherently biased, you don't want balance, you want RK's to be guaranteed a spot in every run.

[Omen_Kaizer]

What's the offset needed to balance DNF? Max 90% of the bottom of the rest of the pack, in a raid setting?

[Joedangod]

What's the offset needed to balance DNF? Max 90% of the bottom of the rest of the pack, in a raid setting?

Why on earth do we want to keep DNF? It's a button you tag someone with every 2.5 minutes, it's not a major part of the class, you don't even think about it 99% of the time. Just bring red/yellow DNF back down to the ~40s duration it used to have and let RK's compete as fully fledged top-tier DPS.

[hunter4215]

Yea no idea why this conversation how so much mention of DNF. DNF is really not that impressive. Plus the t5 Mechanics in AD literally are not allowing more than 5 death.

The thing is that every class, mostly seen on YouTube, is getting the realitlvey similar Dummy parses. Champs, RK, Burg, ~170-190, Hunter: ~220+, Warden ~200+, and then once in a raid, the RK falls 100-150k behind, sometimes 200k+, the DPS classes it's matched up similarly above. This is because the -tatical mitigation debuffs are less abundant than physical ones. It would take no time at all for SSG to test adding -20% tac mit on a mob and the RK being where everyone else is. And please don't make Writ of Lighitng -15% tac damage, keep at lighting. tac damage would actually buff hunter to the point of needing a nerf, and if fire RK's were viable, them as well.

Lighting RK is close, just push it over the line

[Melkorben]

The suggestion I want to make is actually to change the Lore-Masters’s Benediction skill. The current skill is -10% fire mitigations, and -20% with catmit. If however this could be changed to just -tactical mitigation, it would balance RK’s in raids, because that is still the issue.

I totally agree with that idea but it should be combined also with the LM Tar skill.
In that case the synergy of LM/RK will finally come back and it might also help for LM DPS to be an option.
IMO, LM support should be focus only on damage kind (tac/phy) and not on source (fire/light/frost/etc).
Someone here suggested to use Ring of fire skill as an *effective* debuff skill and Im totally in favor- good idea as well!

[Joedangod]

Yea no idea why this conversation how so much mention of DNF. DNF is really not that impressive. Plus the t5 Mechanics in AD literally are not allowing more than 5 death.

And AD is frequently mocked for being a pretty bad raid that brought unnecessary stat bloat and is overall a step down from Remmorchant.

When talking balance you have to account for everything in a specs toolkit. Fail to do that and you end up with people making ridiculous complaints that their Red Captain doesn't pull competitive DPS, it's not meant to, it sacrifices personal DPS for group buffs. Yellow RK is not currently meant to be pulling competitive DPS, it sacrifices personal DPS for defensive support abilities like heals/bubbles/rezzes.

Red RK during 105 with searing procs rotation was outright my favourite DPS spec in the entire game, I'd love to see it return but I absolutely would not accept it becoming a competitive DPS whilst retaining DNF in its current state. DNF is not a major part of red/yellow. I don't get why you insist on having so much of Red/Yellow RKs power budget tied into a button you fire and forget once every 2.5 minutes.

If it's as worthless as you say you'd hardly notice the nerf.

[Curhadbor]

To pin all your hopes on the removal or nerfing of DNF to improve yellow or red is ridiculous. Why do you think nerfing or removing DNF will gain a dps improvement which is what 99% of these treads of late have been about? If SSG does as you say, why o why do you believe they will give your favorite red or my favorite yellow, a dps improvement?

[Joedangod]

To pin all your hopes on the removal or nerfing of DNF to improve yellow or red is ridiculous. Why do you think nerfing or removing DNF will gain a dps improvement which is what 99% of these treads of late have been about? If SSG does as you say, why o why do you believe they will give your favorite red or my favorite yellow, a dps improvement?

If less of the Red/Yellow power budget is tied into random support abilities like DNF then it can have more of the power budget assigned to DPS.

Asking for flat buffs and no nerfs to areas where RK is overperforming is just pure power creep. No thanks, I want balanced classes, not another FotM situation.

[Chris91]

Asking for flat buffs and no nerfs to areas where RK is overperforming is just pure power creep. No thanks, I want balanced classes, not another FotM situation.

We are pretty far from that though. RK in general always does a little better with casuals than more serious players because DNF benefits people who are prone to standing in fire and because the class has a comparatively easy rotation without weaponswapping.

Yet, even amonst casual players, the group where RK dps generally overperforms by a little (while underperforming amonst more serious players), noone wants them.

Also, you can't claim that defensive support and dps have a 1:1 value equivalence, because for dps what matters is basically "which offensive support do we need and then how much dps does a class do". Defensive support doesn't matter in an age where dps to avoid dealing with mechanics is king.

[Joedangod]

Also, you can't claim that defensive support and dps have a 1:1 value equivalence, because for dps what matters is basically "which offensive support do we need and then how much dps does a class do". Defensive support doesn't matter in an age where dps to avoid dealing with mechanics is king.

I haven't ever claimed that they do have a 1:1 equivalence of any kind, merely stated that the % of power tied into defensive support could be reassigned to DPS if DNF/Raidwide bubble access outside of blue is nerfed.

You can't ignore the defensive support RK brings just because it's not relevant at this current moment in time. If they purely buffed RK's right now and made them a competitive DPS option we'd run into a problem as soon as Gundabad is released and our current stat bloat is cancelled out by the cap increase.

[Chris91]

You can't ignore the defensive support RK brings just because it's not relevant at this current moment in time. If they purely buffed RK's right now and made them a competitive DPS option we'd run into a problem as soon as Gundabad is released and our current stat bloat is cancelled out by the cap increase.

It's not just not relevant because of the current stat bloat. Outside of a select few encounters hard and soft enrages have dominated raids since the helms deep class revamp and defensive support has been relegated to "if dps and offensive support are equal then you'd think about it but you'd take the class with 5% more dps over the class with 25% more defensive support any day"

Also RK has the worst offensive support on top of the worst dps right now.

I'm not a fan of DNF in the first place and I'm actually fine with nerfing it (in dps specs). My point simple is if you believe you HAVE to nerf DNF to counterbalance a dps increase you misrepresent the current balance situation.

[Joedangod]

My point simple is if you believe you HAVE to nerf DNF to counterbalance a dps increase you misrepresent the current balance situation.

That point is simply wrong.

If Yellow RK's did Champion DPS, they'd outright be the best DPS spec to stack and people would be stacking them. Yellow RK's actually gain value from stacking as you can tag even more raid members with DNF and have an easier time keeping writ active on multiple adds.

DNF absolutely is valuable in legitimate progression situations which is what the majority of people are operating under. Being able to shrug off a few extra people screwing things up is a pretty big deal. DNF doesn't promote good gameplay, it's a tag you apply once every 2.5 minutes to mitigate someone else's mistakes. You seem to want to completely discount the impact of DNF because it's not particularly relevant to T5 players at the current moment (and yes, it will become more relevant when stats cease to exceed content so much). You can't do that, you can't just observe DPS in isolation and think "This needs to be higher". It'd be like looking at Yellow Captains terrible-mediocre aggro and thinking "Well this needs to be improved".

[Curhadbor]

No, perhaps I should make myself more clear. They have in the past, nerfed RK's and other classes without giving anything in return. You think if they nerf DNF we will get something in return. You are dreaming. Your logic makes sense but SSG does not use logic all the time. In fact, when it comes to nerfs, they rarely use logic.

[Joedangod]

You think if they nerf DNF we will get something in return.

No, I'm saying if yellow RK is to receive further DPS buffs it needs to have DNF nerfed. Outside of that they've needed to nerf DNF for years, people have been calling for that to happen for years, I've been calling for it to happen for years. Too much power is tied into such a poorly designed ability for a DPS to have. The current state of DNF is fine for blue but it should not be accepted in red/yellow.

So yes, absolutely buff the DPS but at the same time nerf DNF.

[BinaryTertiary]

there is no practical reason to have dnf in any other line that blue

dnf is a massive (and unneeded) crutch same as captain having access to rez in all lines

with the dnf gone from dps lines the dps can go as high as the moon if you want it to but as long as dnf exists it shouldnt

[Shanaar]

Changes too a class hits more then just raids, just saying. So when saying this ability is too powerful in raids it can have a important role for other aspects in the game.
There is more aspects of gameplay then just raids, I hope everyone is remembering this and too balance all game around raids ( 1 aspect) of the game that is broken since class stacking is possible in raids too gain a big advantage.

The fix is pretty easy since only the raid aspect need changes too it, and not the classes. Just but a certain number of revives possible in raids in each fight and everyone happy :-) (could be 4-5).

On the other hand I would myself like too se abit more complex rotations of yellow/red line rk. I like the champion alot where yellow and red line have a better way of mixing togehter.

[Joedangod]

Changes too a class hits more then just raids, just saying. So when saying this ability is too powerful in raids it can have a important role for other aspects in the game.

Nerfing DNF and boosting Yellow RK DPS would be a net benefit to the spec in all content. DPS specs should compete on DPS, not on who has the most overpowered tertiary support abilities. Under no circumstance should RK be allowed to have competitive DPS and current DNF, it's one or the other and personally I would much prefer a DPS spec to be focused on DPS.