Introducing the 2013 LOTRO Player Council

Any chance of Council members being given a chance disappeared when their names were published. Just because other players can't openly prejudge, smear and insult council members on these forums, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

That being said, I hope the Council is given a go. It remains to be seen how it stands up to the challenges which will come its way - the first resignations, the first time Turbine says "no", the first time someone puts friendship above NDA and spills the beans because he or she felt it was "important" etc. All these things will happen, hopefully the council as a unit will be able to work through these challenges and produce results for everyone.

Bon Voyage!

The fact that there was no attempt made to include at least one player for each server and hat that has only come about through happenstance clearly shows that the councillors are not representing individual servers. Rather counsellors represent specific playstyles and game mechanics e.g. PvMP, raiding, housing, creeps, crafting, etc. So even if the counsellors from your server do not share he same interests as you there are other counsellors who will and who have been chosen to represent your interests. Simply put it would be unfeasible to have a counsellor from each server that represented every single interest from that server and that server alone as it would result in a council composed of hundreds of players.

At any rate I will be doing my best to represent my fellow players from across all servers and I encourage you to contact me with any feedback they may have on any aspect of the game. You can contact me using one of the following methods:

email: mrwarg AT theartofwarg.com
Twitter: @scotsboyuk OR @theartofwarg

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Originally Posted by Kalluin

First, congratulations to all Council members. May your work help the game keep the pace of time.

Second, a word of concern after looking at the list. Laurelin server is a rarity since it has the only RP flag across all servers - something inherited from Codemasters that, at least, Turbine has kept -. But I am sad to find no members from the roleplaying community from the only RP flagged server in this game. At least some people from RE-Landroval's RP community made it there - congratulations to Harperella -, but for me this is a clear message from Turbine: the only RP server's RP community has nothing to say at Council level.

A really, really sad day.

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This is incredibly disappointing to hear.

No one, to my knowledge, from Landroval is a heavy RPer. I do not know of the selections from Belegaer or Estel.

Please keep heavy RPers in mind when such things come into play, I suppose is all I can say. We're probably as small as the hardcore t2c raiding community, if not smaller, but we're around (and many of them hate the musical instruments and the song spam and generic emote spam it brings up, to throw another perspective at you folks. I don't mind it, myself, since I hang around it from time to time, but this is a playstyle perspective that should be acknowledged).

So, if you're a heavy RPer, Kalluin, I guess you just have to inform the non RPers selected from your server on what exactly they're representing. *shrug* My other server is renowned for its raiding community and had no one from there selected, so relying on other server's reps may be something you'll want to do, too.

Shame you guys are bound by a NDA though lol.

Edit: Imladris' two representatives are heavy RPers? That is very interesting, and sort of funny that the two labeled RP servers got no heavy RPers from them :P

But, hopefully they've been to other RP servers (Crickhollow has RP as well) to see how other places are :)

I am trying to give you all the benefit of the doubt, though. Good luck handling the council!

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Originally Posted by Devro

I also have pretty much the same pedigree that you are claiming. And was actually selected as one of the council members. What you have to keep in mind here is that you actually have no clue how things will actually work. You are making pretty bold statements about what will or will not be accomplished with this council. Your opinion about what should happen with the game is one of hundreds of thousands of differing opinions. The main goal here I believe, is for developers to get some feedback on their ideas from the average player. Raiders want more raids, crafters want more crafting, solo people want everything geared towards solo play. And everyone wants the best gear in game.

What you have to keep in mind is that if you skew the slider in the direction of ANY certain type of play, you make people who aren't in that group lose interest. If I had to play with people who only like to raid all the time, I would get very bored quickly. Same for PvMP.

What I suggest is that you try using a little patience and wait until things shake out before you start spreading the hate and ill-will. This is something new, and it is going to take time to do anything.

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Yes however once again you show where the program is flawed. Because no two players have the exact playstyle. Sure the groups as you says want that but beyond that it is a fine line. Just because you or another raider like x raid that is shown to you is no guarantee the other thousands of players in the community will like it. If anything goes wrong the council is marked by this and usualy in this type of situation things get ugly. By accepting the possition the council is also accepting the negative consequences that come with it when it backfires.

Thats why this type of stuff should be pitched to the community as a whole in the form of polls not a select handfull.

The program hasn't even fully got off the ground and it already has issues. For instance the name and miscommunication have a lot of people thinking this is a community program and that their voices will be heard.

Hey Delmore, Looking forward to working with you also.

As for getting into game, I just started a new job Monday and I am preparing the office and getting ready for a three week east cost trip followed by two weeks in Germany, so a bit crazy right now.

Also when I finished last night about 9:00p I thought about logging on but was just imagining the tells I would receive. LOL So I decided to just spend time with the family last night.

I am going to try and get in for a bit tonight, so maybe see you them. Cya all in game, if you are on the BIG E that is!!!! :D

With that I am off the forums for the rest of the day.

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Originally Posted by jakeprecision123

Yicky, I suppose, was selected to represent the PVP side of Elendilmir, which is reasonable. I'd say almost everyone who PVPs knows him, and he's been leading pvp raids for a long time. So, can I assume that you represent the PVE side of elendilmir? Since you've stated yourself that you've spent 0.1% of your time in the moors, I guess it's a safe assumption that you are our PVE guy.


However, who are you? 95% of our server's population don't know who you are. Okay, so you've not completed t2 raids and t2c raids on level. Elendilmir is a server that has quite a substantial raiding population, and has achieved a number of world firsts. Can you represent that population having not done the raids and experienced it in its full glory? Nope. Perhaps I am mistaken on Elendilmir's PVE population. Perhaps, the PVE players are casuals like yourself who want to enjoy the content and read every quest text.

If I were to tell you how t2 raids can be improved, would you understand the mechanics, having not experienced them? However, I cannot blame you because you were selected. I can only grimace the choice of selection, and the person(s) who made that decision in picking you to represent us.

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So, let me see if I understand this. According to your definition, approximately less than 1% of all the players on here are in top tier raiding kins. And of that less than 1% of the population there seems to be the same % of representation in the Council. The VAST majority of players on this game are casual players who just play for fun. So yes, I would say the representation so far looks pretty fair and balanced as far as what people are looking for from the game.

What you seem to selfish to understand is that there are a LOT more opinions of where the game should go than just those famous 0.5% of people who live their lives just to beat the hardest part of a video game. Devs spend a lot of difficult time trying to keep the game balanced as to attract as many people as they can (for obvious economical reasons) So to trash their choices about who best represents the majority of gamers before one word is even said about ANYTHING just shows how flawed your understanding of Game-a-nomics is.

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Originally Posted by Starbuck1771

The program hasn't even fully got off the ground and it already has issues. For instance the name and miscommunication have a lot of people thinking this is a community program and that their voices will be heard.

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When the council was first announced, I shared all the same concerns you have. I was convinced that it would be full of yes-men, have no communication, be a scapegoat for all Turbine's bad decisions while taking no claim for the good ones, and overall just be a PR stunt for Turbine to say "we're listening, but you can never know who we're listening to or what they're saying".

But despite being a naysayer that was probably blacklisted (if you still think I'm a fanboi, check my post history), I applied anyway. My reasoning was if my suspicions were right, I would never have a chance and the end result would be identical to if I had never applied at all. But if I didn't apply and the council was a real attempt at dong good, I would miss my chance to have a real effect on the game.

If the council has the kind of power that it's implied to have, we should be able to force some sort of meaningful two-way communication (not just some "letter from the council" every 6-8 months). If we don't have enough power to accomplish that, chances are it'll end up being little more than a focus group for the theme of next month's My Little Pony costume of the month.

But please, at least give us a chance to see how things will work before trying to divide the community between the 'chosen few' and 'everyone else'. At the moment, the council has not even been officially formed yet, it only exists as a list of names and a PR page. If you're right, if it is an ineffective PR stunt, I'll be standing right beside you with the predictions of doom and gloom. But if we do have the power to mold it into something effective, the last thing we need is hundreds of players calling for our heads on spikes before we even get the chance to start communicating with anyone.

I really really hope I'm proved 100% wrong, but somehow I think the whole council is a simple PR charade.

Many many times in my working life I have witnessed false positions created to boost morale etc. the people getting these positions getting overly excited and proud to be given a chance, all really really believing they will be able to make a difference.

I know full well that 6 months + they are all going to come to the conclusion they have zero influence and everything that was promised failed to materialise. Sadly I was almost always right in this.

Some how I see the same happening here.

Good luck to you all but don't be surprised if it doesn't end up as you think it will.

I do not believe, for all the people out there complaining about their server representations, that anyone is actually representing ANY server. As I understand it, they are seeking the opinions of the council as a whole, and not as related to their specific server. It makes it far more organized than if someone has to go through and look for good ideas on the suggestion forum. Most normal players don't even use the forums. This way The Devs can get a better feeling of what the majority of people actually think, instead of just the Loud people that complain in the forums about how such and such is unfair.

When I filled out my application, I did not even mention which server I played on( and yes, I play multiple servers). They only thing they really asked was "what is the main area that you would like to help work on?"

So before you start trashing us, please keep in mind, maybe you're in a raiding kin and the people on the council from your server aren't into raiding....Maybe on another server, their reps are into hardcore raiding, but the majority of the people aren't. People are just going to try to help make the game as fun as it can be, and the quickest way for your opinion to get ignored is by trying to ram it down someone's throat.

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Originally Posted by Starbuck1771

Yes however once again you show where the program is flawed. Because no two players have the exact playstyle. Sure the groups as you says want that but beyond that it is a fine line. Just because you or another raider like x raid that is shown to you is no guarantee the other thousands of players in the community will like it. If anything goes wrong the council is marked by this and usualy in this type of situation things get ugly. By accepting the possition the council is also accepting the negative consequences that come with it when it backfires.

Thats why this type of stuff should be pitched to the community as a whole in the form of polls not a select handfull.

The program hasn't even fully got off the ground and it already has issues. For instance the name and miscommunication have a lot of people thinking this is a community program and that their voices will be heard.

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Agree 100%

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Originally Posted by Glumposneak

I really really hope I'm proved 100% wrong, but somehow I think the whole council is a simple PR charade.

Many many times in my working life I have witnessed false positions created to boost morale etc. the people getting these positions getting overly excited and proud to be given a chance, all really really believing they will be able to make a difference.

I know full well that 6 months + they are all going to come to the conclusion they have zero influence and everything that was promised failed to materialise. Sadly I was almost always right in this.

Some how I see the same happening here.

Good luck to you all but don't be surprised if it doesn't end up as you think it will.

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It reminds me of the 'Grift of the Magi'. It would be very entertaining if the end results are the same.

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Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

When the council was first announced, I shared all the same concerns you have. I was convinced that it would be full of yes-men, have no communication, be a scapegoat for all Turbine's bad decisions while taking no claim for the good ones, and overall just be a PR stunt for Turbine to say "we're listening, but you can never know who we're listening to or what they're saying".

But despite being a naysayer that was probably blacklisted (if you still think I'm a fanboi, check my post history), I applied anyway. My reasoning was if my suspicions were right, I would never have a chance and the end result would be identical to if I had never applied at all. But if I didn't apply and the council was a real attempt at dong good, I would miss my chance to have a real effect on the game.

If the council has the kind of power that it's implied to have, we should be able to force some sort of meaningful two-way communication (not just some "letter from the council" every 6-8 months). If we don't have enough power to accomplish that, chances are it'll end up being little more than a focus group for the theme of next month's My Little Pony costume of the month.

But please, at least give us a chance to see how things will work before trying to divide the community between the 'chosen few' and 'everyone else'. At the moment, the council has not even been officially formed yet, it only exists as a list of names and a PR page. If you're right, if it is an ineffective PR stunt, I'll be standing right beside you with the predictions of doom and gloom. But if we do have the power to mold it into something effective, the last thing we need is hundreds of players calling for our heads on spikes before we even get the chance to start communicating with anyone.

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Well said.

Names were announced yesterday and it seems some are already saying it's failed, lets give it a chance first!

Permit me to stick my head above the parapet and make a few observations, a few people seem to be upset at the makeup/playstyles of the 75 people chosen but in all honesty for every playstyle from every server (29 of them if I can count correctly) to be represented we'd end up with a council in the hundreds and imagine if you will trying to get 300 people to agree on what to have for dinner, you'd end up with lowest common denominator, say beans and rice or in a more Lotro focused direction you'd get a wall of white noise and frankly nothing of any use.

No-one was picked based on server basis, that's been explained by Sapience and he's the only person in this conversation actually in the know about the criteria used when picking - he was involved after all. One other thing that comes across is that some people seem to feel that it's going to be an unmitigated disaster, they may be right but in all honesty give us a chance, even we don't know yet what our involvement is going to be and how much - or how little - influence we'll have, as of right now the only thing we've seen that everyone else hasn't is the text of the non disclosure agreement so I personally understand that everyone isn't going to be thrilled but at the same time no-one knows what to be unhappy about. Stick with us folks, if I was outside of the process I'd have questions of my own but really, no-one can set peoples minds at rest until we have an idea of our level of involvement and even then it's going to have to be NDA permitting.

We all approach Lotro in our own way, there are casual players who drop in and out when they feel like it, theres the solo players who do their own thing and group up for the odd instance etc (that'd be me), theres hardcore raiders who chase after uber elite everything they can get their hands on and there are people who like nothing more than standing in the Prancing Pony chatting in the 3rd person to each other etc. etc., yes there are many more playstyles too and whilst I don't particularly find standing in the Prancing Pony talking in the 3rd person the last word in entertainment to some it is, that's great, go ahead in your own way and enjoy the game but my point is this, just because I don't follow your style I don't look down my nose at it or undermine your chosen styles relevance, besides, even if I did, I'm one of 75 and I highly doubt one person will be able to lead the whole council in a direction that follows their own personal agenda.

We're 25 (and a bit) hours old, please don't stick the nails in our collective coffin just yet.

I only have three words to say...

Bring

It

On

Never even heard of 2 picked for Elen Server, or ever seen them in GLFF or OCC. >_<

Well... long as Fire RK's got some much needed buffs, or Armor set that actually helps Fire RK's.. (Writ for fire changes? really?) -_-
Give me 2-3seconds of eassy of fire free cast.

Well Gartz to Elen Members then, who ever you actually are.

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Originally Posted by Yuffie67

Never even heard of 2 picked for Elen Server.

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Seriously, no one has been picked in order to represent there respective server!

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Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm

You say it isn't an accurate representation of the player base.

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I should have said, "It's not an accurate representation of the player base on Landroval".

There were 5 people chosen from Landroval, three of them from the same kin. Raiding and PvMP is different on every server, and I would like a 'voice' on the council for raiding as it is on my server. I'm not confident that the players listed from my server can speak to our wants or concerns. There's no way no 'raiders' applied. Not all of them are angry diaper-babies like me.

Also, some of the other posts in this thread indicate that top tier raiders were passed up on other servers as well.

I'm hopeful that this player council can have a positive effect on the parts of the game that I enjoy best. That doesn't mean that I am optimistic.

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Originally Posted by FarFooFaFa

I should have said, "It's not an accurate representation of the player base on Landroval".

There were 5 people chosen from Landroval, three of them from the same kin. Raiding and PvMP is different on every server, and I would like a 'voice' on the council for raiding as it is on my server. I'm not confident that the players listed from my server can speak to our wants or concerns. There's no way no 'raiders' applied. Not all of them are angry diaper-babies like me.

Also, some of the other posts in this thread indicate that top tier raiders were passed up on other servers as well.

I'm hopeful that this player council can have a positive effect on the parts of the game that I enjoy best. That doesn't mean that I am optimistic.

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It may well be that none of the players from Landroval picked are "hardcore raiders", I don't know. But I'm sure at least some of the 70 or so people picked will be raiders.

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Originally Posted by Yuffie67

Never even heard of 2 picked for Elen Server, or ever seen them in GLFF or OCC. >_<

Well... long as Fire RK's got some much needed buffs, or Armor set that actually helps Fire RK's.. (Writ for fire changes? really?) -_-
Give me 2-3seconds of eassy of fire free cast.

Well Gartz to Elen Members then, who ever you actually are.

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If I am over on Elen freep glff/ooc it will be on Orenia or Shaxell

Typically you will find me in Creep OOC as that is my main. :)

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Originally Posted by FarFooFaFa

Raiding and PvMP is different on every server, and I would like a 'voice' on the council for raiding as it is on my server.

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There are 29 servers.

Assuming that each server gets one raid representative, that's a council of 29 who discuss nothing but raiding. If you add PvMP, that's a council of 58 who discuss nothing but PvMP and raiding. If you add skirmishes, that's 87 who discuss nothing but skirmishes, raiding, and PvMP...

Even if turbine strictly limited the representatives to the five categories named in the application (PvMP, PvE, Solo, Raid, Role Play), that's a minimum of 145 council members, double our current number, just to represent five categories out dozens.

If every server had one representative from each category relevant to that server, the size of the council would likely be just as large as the current active population of the forums. Does that seem reasonable for a council intended to streamline ideas to the devs?

YesMaam, I really liked your post.

My application fits your profile as well: I wrote long form, I used it as an opportunity to introduce myself as an individual and provide an example of my communication style. I wrote a cover letter instead of sending a resume (or, rather, tried to show who I was more than tell). I figured that in submitting my account name to Turbine they would already know my stats. What they couldn't tell from my user name was how I communicated, what my interests and strengths were outside of LOTRO, why I love the game and why I want to continue contributing to its community.

I would not be surprised if this round of volunteers was selected because of how the electors felt they would work together (in addition to play style/demographics....but definitely not server!). Dissenting opinions and different viewpoints are critical to the success of any group that is tasked with problem solving, but so is the ability to present those opinions and share those viewpoints in a constructive manner.

I completely understand people wanting to have someone on the council who clearly expresses the interests that they want heard. I'm not the raiding player you're looking for; I'm sorry. But I'm very invested in this game. I think everyone who volunteered (regardless of selection) is. And I am very glad that this is set up with limited terms that don't repeat. This is just round 1! :)

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Originally Posted by Delmore

If I am over on Elen freep glff/ooc it will be on Orenia or Shaxell

Typically you will find me in Creep OOC as that is my main. :)

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Ahhh, I've seen those 2 names pop up, If your on Creep side, that explains why.
I don't go near PVP since lv50cap anymore.

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Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

There are 29 servers.

Assuming that each server gets one raid representative, that's a council of 29 who discuss nothing but raiding. If you add PvMP, that's a council of 58 who discuss nothing but PvMP and raiding. If you add skirmishes, that's 87 who discuss nothing but skirmishes, raiding, and PvMP...

Even if turbine strictly limited the representatives to the five categories named in the application (PvMP, PvE, Solo, Raid, Role Play), that's a minimum of 145 council members, double our current number, just to represent five categories out dozens.

If every server had one representative from each category relevant to that server, the size of the council would likely be just as large as the current active population of the forums. Does that seem reasonable for a council intended to streamline ideas to the devs?

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Not every server had 5 people picked. Landroval did. That present an opportunity to pick players from diverse styles of play. Instead we got three people from the same kin.

~That~ is what does not seem reasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by Glumposneak

I really really hope I'm proved 100% wrong, but somehow I think the whole council is a simple PR charade.

Many many times in my working life I have witnessed false positions created to boost morale etc. the people getting these positions getting overly excited and proud to be given a chance, all really really believing they will be able to make a difference.

I know full well that 6 months + they are all going to come to the conclusion they have zero influence and everything that was promised failed to materialise. Sadly I was almost always right in this.

Some how I see the same happening here.

Good luck to you all but don't be surprised if it doesn't end up as you think it will.

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Congratulations to everyone who was chosen, but I have to agree with Glumposneak. I cannot imagine this council being anything other than a sham. It has no discernible purpose.

It can't be for feedback. Ostensibly the developers already know what we think. They read the forums. They play the game. They read our complaints.

It can't be to increase communication back to the community. If, for example, the developers wanted to explain their design intent for Burglar mounted combat*, they have had months to say something.

It can't be to engender more trust from the community. If anything, it will divide the community. If Turbine implements something unpopular and claims that the council supported it, it will just infuriate us instead of merely annoying us.

It has the stench of a poorly thought out PR stunt. If anything good comes from this, I'll eat my words. But congratulations.



*Really, why is there only one trick and why can't it be used during combat? C'mon!

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Originally Posted by FarFooFaFa

Not every server had 5 people picked. Landroval did. That present an opportunity to pick players from diverse styles of play. Instead we got three people from the same kin.

~That~ is what does not seem reasonable to me.

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They HAVE picked players from diverse styles of play.
It's irrelevant that they picked 3 from the same kin from Landroval.
They are NOT server representatives.

(I've put the important words in caps. There seems to still be a misconception that the players from each server are representatives of that server. Hardcore Raiders will have representatives, as much as other styles of play will have representatives. Then there are those of us that aren't subscribing to any particular style of play, and don't believe in style of play vs style of play vs style of play.)