Beorning Update Incoming

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Dec 14 2018, 05:09 PM
Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

I'll look at whether it makes sense to fold the speed buff into basic bear form and remove the specific wanderlust form. The speed buff cancels in combat regardless, so that might work technically, but there are a few other factors I need to consider behind the scenes before I do that.

As for wrath, the change I made to base wrath burn vs. generation in bear form actually shouldn't have made as big a difference as we're seeing - it's mostly just a convenience benefit and a minor wrath bonus in combat. More significant in blue line obviously, but still really only amounts to a total difference of 2 wrath/sec.

Thrash generating wrath obviously makes a pretty big difference and perhaps the two together are sufficient to explain the much higher wrath generation - but I'm still dubious. I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

I don't want to choke it off mind you, but I do want wrath to remain a real consideration when you're trying to decide how to run your rotations, and when/how often you break out into man-form for faster generation, or whether you're willing to suck it up and stick with thrash and other bear form generation mechanisms like CotW - but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin
Dec 14 2018, 05:19 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

-Vastin

Sounds good. Every form should have a benefit. Best case would be that they are equally good but needed to different things. remember that other classes do not need to do this and focus or whatever and esp power is not an issue at all anymore so the wrath problem is unfair compared to other classes.

What about the armor issue? Is it intended that the armor we bought for ash is not heavy armor and that the values are all messed up? Will there be a hot fix?
Dec 14 2018, 05:32 PM
Happychappy

Other classes have no power management issues either. Most are very efficient and barely need to take a potion here or there. Does anyone actually need a lore master for power transfer nowadays? probably no. Not at higher levels anyway. Share the power doesn't seem to do much when i use it on my new LM.

Beornings should not have it harder than them really. Or change the others also.
Dec 14 2018, 05:49 PM
Siddharta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

Abyss set is bugged, it works ok for the first 3 uses, but on 4th i applies a full HoT, so it is not fixed.
Beorning currently is the most overpowered healing class ever i guess
Dec 14 2018, 06:35 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by snacktime

Bear feels much better now. Wrath is arguably broken since you rarely run out of it why is it there, but I'm not so sure wrath wasn't broken at design time. It took so long to build wrath in man form that often by the time you switched, it was too late. Mob was dead, player was dead because you didn't heal them, etc..

Having bad dps in man and good dps in bear is I think a broken design. That just doesn't feel good. Man having a different set of skills that are different yet you have a reason to use them, is a better design IMO. Man for healing, buffing/debuffing, etc..

Blue beor must tank in bear form permanently/ first is more easy for devs to adjust/fix or call it whatever, second is more natural. Same to red bear. If you wana do dmg you go damn beast. We dont need clunky shape changes. About yellow i dont know. Healer rolle dont fit beor at all.
I dont know why you all complain about perma bear form ? If we go human we need bonuses from blue / 30% armor +20% hp/ to aply to both forms.
Or we face caping mits problem AGAIN. I dont like the choise to over cap my bear form to not take dmg when i`m in human. Neither i want to just bring to cap bear but to take #### ton of dmg in human form. Both blue and red bears are fine now. We are not op. Stil in the bottom of the dps chain, but atleast we are here. About blue, we are stil behind guardians and captains. Duno why you call for nerf for just fixed class.
Lets do it like this. You say beo is OP, then post video to prove it. I say beo strugle and i`l post video prove. Or even better, post a screenshot of your beor lvl...
Call for a nerf, show us the reason.
Dec 14 2018, 06:49 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin

Vastin dont balance the class around sugestion of ppl who run landscape and low lvl instances.
On rly long and hard fights/ at one you need to kite/ when you cant stay on target all the time and generate resources, wrath just vanish because of recuperate and claw swipe spam. You hardly use other skills as beor when you kite, and we all know most of lotro fights are based on kiting.
Wrath is ok/ in blue atleast. Dont make us go in human form again. With the dmg scale in last expansion this mean one thing > dead bear.
Tried to stack both bear and human HoTs. Didnt work. It barely outheal the dmg we took at the moment we stay in human form to cast hearten.
Solution is to ad some time / like 5 seconds / to swipe dmg debuf. This will give us some aoe dmg reduce. Because of constant thrash and heal spam in our rotation, and with the current duration of the debuf we can barely stack/keep it 3 times.

And one question. Why you give us option to generate wrath in bear form, while in the same time try to bring back the old way of wrath generation /human form/ ?
Dec 14 2018, 07:07 PM
Vastin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siddharta

Abyss set is bugged, it works ok for the first 3 uses, but on 4th i applies a full HoT, so it is not fixed.
Beorning currently is the most overpowered healing class ever i guess

Yes... yes they are. :p

Luckily this was an easy one to find and fix. Still going to have to go through the release cycle so it'll be a little while before the fix makes its way through to live, but this one is already on its way.

-Vastin
Dec 14 2018, 07:08 PM
snacktime

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hildilas

Sounds good. Every form should have a benefit. Best case would be that they are equally good but needed to different things. remember that other classes do not need to do this and focus or whatever and esp power is not an issue at all anymore so the wrath problem is unfair compared to other classes.

What about the armor issue? Is it intended that the armor we bought for ash is not heavy armor and that the values are all messed up? Will there be a hot fix?

I think it's too late for that design, but I'm with you on this. I think wrath was broken at design. Or rather how they tied it all together is broken.

Doing good dps in bear form and mediocre dps in man form, if dps is mostly what you are doing in man form, that's not the most fun experience. You can retain the wrath building by adding more synergy between man and bear vs making them compete directly with each other.

How you do that at this point I don't know. But I do know I'm strongly in favor of fairly heavy wrath generation in bear form. Not where it is now, as wrath is here to stay so it should have some meaning. But I don't want to be spending 2/3 of my time doing mediocre dps compared to bear form. I'd still play the class but most likely avoid dps roles if at all possible.

Healing/tanking don't suffer as much from the direct man/bear competition thing. And at least in yellow which I've played more, wrath generation makes it a bit OP.

This is all landscape/T1 stuff, I don't play end game.
Dec 14 2018, 07:08 PM
Drengeir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

-Vastin

Hi Vastin!

I will admit I was skeptical about a lot of these changes at first, but having played many hours of my bear over the last two days, I will say that the class finally feels like what it was meant to be. I know some people have found the multiple stances inconvenient, but it hasn't bothered me personally. Getting rid of Wonderlust and adding the bonus to bear-form stance might help with that though. Here are just a few things and suggestions on how the class feels right now, and possible fixes to help. This is for Red Line only

Getting rid of out-of-combat wrath degeneration is the best thing for a casual player. It allows us to run into combat as a bear (if we so choose) and helps the class feel like its roots (I do understand that the expose buff is still necessary, but I'm talking landscape specifically). If you do decided to nerf the passive wrath generation in Bear Form, it may help, but it is very minimal anyway.

Next, please allow Bash bleeds to stack again. Right now the fact that Vicious Claws refreshes the bleeds is virtually useless because when Bash resets its CD you just use the skill again. It just takes a little strategy out of playing the class.

In terms of wrath building and skills that consume wrath, I think there is just a few small adjustments that need to be made (and some larger suggestions). Having thrash build wrath is awesome, as it allows us to fight a little longer as a bear than before. However, rn there aren't enough useful bear-form attacks that consume wrath that fit in to a regular rotation. Vicious Claws can deal good damage with the legacy, but the CD is now longer. Same goes for skills like Armour Crush (if slotted) and relentless maul. The CD's are so long that if you wanna stay as a bear then you just keep using thrash for a while anyway. Switching to man form doesn't help much either as the DPS does drop and the most useful skill is the expose weakness buff.

SO - my thoughts on how to combat all this. I think rotations could become more fluid and have more options if some of the other wrath consuming skills had there CD's reduced. For a skill like Relentless Maul, I think it could be made more useful if either A) the damage was drastically increased (the legacy adjusted from about 30+% to maybe closer to 60+%) or B) the CD was dropped. If either of these things happened, you could increase the wrath cost of the skill to help balance out the building and usage of wrath. Obviously I would like Bash bleeds to stack again. And finally Execute. I understand why the free usage was removed when the skill procs, but the attack still doesn't do enough damage to justify losing all wrath. I would say either allow the skill to crit again/always crit or increase the base damage of the attack drastically. Otherwise the moment of opportunity proc needs to be altered. Maybe have it consume a large chunk of wrath when it procs, but not all wrath? Something like up to 40 or 50 wrath? That way the skill does not drain all wrath and can be once again thrown into rotations (again the CD could be dropped, though if some of these other fixes go through it would be less necessary to do so).

WHEW. Sorry, I know that was a lot. Hope any of that feedback helped or the suggestions helped, or something. I am very happy with where the class is after a lot of these changes and would like to see Red line begin to get closer to its fullest potential.

Thanks!
Dec 14 2018, 07:10 PM
Aelbryht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

-Vastin

I've been trying out red line while questing around Eregion at level 50 on Anor (without an LI) and I notice most of my attacks can just randomly add an extra 3 wrath, even normal auto-attacks. Whether in man or bear form. So if I use Bash at 100 wrath for example, it will drop to 80 then suddenly spike up to 83 instead of just climbing 1 at a time like normal.

Has something gone wrong behind the scenes with:

Quote:

Wrath Return Legacy: Only attacks that spend wrath can benefit from this refund legacy. Non-attack skills no longer incorrectly benefit from this legacy.

?

*EDIT* - It's the same in blue line except my passive gain is 3 at a time in bear form, and these random extra chunks of wrath are +5 instead.
Dec 14 2018, 07:19 PM
Drengeir

Oh, sorry, and one other thing - Call to the Wild.

Right now skills that consume wrath have such long CD's that the skill feels next to useless (beyond the fact that it's currently bugged). If all skills that consume wrath had wrath costs increased and CD's decreased, then Red Line would probably feel more balanced and a skill like Call to the Wild more useful. Though I ideally still think the legacy should be altered to give phys. mastery as well increase duration (like the non-imbued version)
Dec 14 2018, 07:38 PM
CaerArianrhod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I don't want to choke it off mind you, but I do want wrath to remain a real consideration when you're trying to decide how to run your rotations, and when/how often you break out into man-form for faster generation, or whether you're willing to suck it up and stick with thrash and other bear form generation mechanisms like CotW - but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin

Don't change it to early.
I did some t2 6man instances with the Beorning as healer, i still had to change forth and back from bear to man form to get wrath quickly back to heal up the group. The wrath generation is nice, but considering T3 i would wait a bit and see. If you mean with "CotW" Call To Wild, it is only a red skill, in yellow we have only one short-CD skills with sure wrath generation: Thrash. All other skills are depending on chance.
Dec 14 2018, 08:23 PM
JERH

Having spent some more time on my beorning today I wanted to reinforce a few points made in just previous posts. Blue has enough bear form wrath using skills on short Cooldowns like claw swipe that you can use up wrath and go down somewhat quickly. Offsetting this is if counterattack procs you zoom right back up nicely. If not you can drop below 50 easily. In blue there is no loss of crit like in red so no side effects.

As pointed out red has no real users of wrath on short enough cooldown ( most skills 12s, 16s, ...) to use up the thrash increase. This seems good to allow the +15% crit bonus to stay on. Every 15 seconds I need to hit slash, then refresh expose, composure if healing needed, then thrash (and then bash) to go back into bear stance. This also keeps wrath at max in red. With only 1 short cooldown bear skill it makes for some awkward pauses.

So, very good work so far and I look forward to some tweaks that balance out the different blue, red, and yellow play styles.
Dec 14 2018, 08:55 PM
Henna95

Would it be possible to make shape shifting to be an immediate skill, like the previous skill was.
Currently changing forms feels much less responsive than what it used to feel before the update.
Dec 14 2018, 10:39 PM
Arkinon

I've got to agree that now it feels clunky changing forms whereas before it flowed smoothly. Adding the speed buff out of combat to regular bear form would help and just revert it to turn it on or off with the one button like it used to be if it is possible. If not I will get used to it I guess.

I love the other changes for my blue line Beorning though as now I really feel like I am experiencing the text that reads being mainly in bear form for the line. Even my buddy that I play with all the time noticed I was in bear form more now. Of course I am only mid-level so I'm not able to say what these changes do in the end game.
Dec 15 2018, 02:20 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

Good to hear and lot of changes are quite good you have made, however healing is overtuned in my opinion.

And I know you are still working with maul, not sure if you know this very annoying bug on it. Skill cost 20 wrath but you need to have actually over 40 wrath to it work. If you do maul and you have only lets say 38 wrath, maul will cancel almost instantly what means that you jsut wasted 20 wrath for nothing. This goes to all traitlines.
Dec 15 2018, 05:36 AM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by snacktime

I think it's too late for that design, but I'm with you on this. I think wrath was broken at design. Or rather how they tied it all together is broken.

.

Nah I didn't want to say that anyway because I read everything and knew that it won't be an overhaul. BUT it actually should be easy to have wrath/get wrath because of how easy other classes get "theirs". I don't think about power on my warden/lm/burg/ hunter, I don't think about focus on my hunter...and they don't even need to press an extra shapeshift button in between.

We have two skills that transform us to man/bear. It would be amazing to shapeshift automatically by pressing every "grey" button.
Dec 15 2018, 06:03 AM
Dinara

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

I'll look at whether it makes sense to fold the speed buff into basic bear form and remove the specific wanderlust form. The speed buff cancels in combat regardless, so that might work technically, but there are a few other factors I need to consider behind the scenes before I do that.

As for wrath, the change I made to base wrath burn vs. generation in bear form actually shouldn't have made as big a difference as we're seeing - it's mostly just a convenience benefit and a minor wrath bonus in combat. More significant in blue line obviously, but still really only amounts to a total difference of 2 wrath/sec.

Thrash generating wrath obviously makes a pretty big difference and perhaps the two together are sufficient to explain the much higher wrath generation - but I'm still dubious. I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

I don't want to choke it off mind you, but I do want wrath to remain a real consideration when you're trying to decide how to run your rotations, and when/how often you break out into man-form for faster generation, or whether you're willing to suck it up and stick with thrash and other bear form generation mechanisms like CotW - but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin

Dear Vastin,

I have the deepest respect for you and truly appreciate all that you do for this game. I would just like to ask you one thing, please please please don't mess with the wrath for the Red line solo player.
Before you made the changes there was no reason or actual way to fight in bear form for more than 15 to 30 seconds. Now, it's actually fun and resembles many solo players image and understanding of the Beorn.
If you want to make the changes for the leet raiders to the other lines to make it more difficult for them as they seem to enjoy, go ahead by all means. But please leave the Red line alone.

Thanks for your time.
Dec 15 2018, 07:59 AM
Menegris

I want to mention that even with Slash working in beo form like on one of the Bullroarer tests (dunno if it was bug or not), even with that thing beorning already can play Red line/do dmg without need to switch in man form very often. Using Call To Wild, wrath potions, Expose in rotation (yes, only in beo form) and ofc Slash let you stay in bear form for 3+ min. I think its more interesting to maintain your wrath by your skills and rotation than just have permanent wrath. Here is a screen of 3 min combat bear form only before last big update (as you see no man wrath generation skills at all). Also it shows that earlier almost all beorning dmg was from Bash bleeds.

https://i.imgur.com/BjGKinI.jpg
Dec 15 2018, 10:16 AM
Atreius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henna95

Would it be possible to make shape shifting to be an immediate skill, like the previous skill was.
Currently changing forms feels much less responsive than what it used to feel before the update.

yea, I used to be able to use a skill like bash and immediately switch to man form while the skill executed. Now it's mostly like bash > wait for bash to end > actually able to transform.

Kinda liked it like it was before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Good to hear and lot of changes are quite good you have made, however healing is overtuned in my opinion.

And I know you are still working with maul, not sure if you know this very annoying bug on it. Skill cost 20 wrath but you need to have actually over 40 wrath to it work. If you do maul and you have only lets say 38 wrath, maul will cancel almost instantly what means that you jsut wasted 20 wrath for nothing. This goes to all traitlines.

I always felt it was like this, but thought I just cancelled the channeling by error somehow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinara

Dear Vastin,

I have the deepest respect for you and truly appreciate all that you do for this game. I would just like to ask you one thing, please please please don't mess with the wrath for the Red line solo player.
Before you made the changes there was no reason or actual way to fight in bear form for more than 15 to 30 seconds. Now, it's actually fun and resembles many solo players image and understanding of the Beorn.
If you want to make the changes for the leet raiders to the other lines to make it more difficult for them as they seem to enjoy, go ahead by all means. But please leave the Red line alone.

Thanks for your time.

I am not looking to insult or be mean, but you are either exaggerating or maybe didnt play the class properly, or you also need to understand that you are playing the wrong class if you think staying 90% in bear form and 10% man form is a good thing.
This isn't the Guardian Druid from WoW.

Man form need to keep its weight (if it sucks then just buff it), you either rebuild the whole class to work only in bear or you just break the class. And Vastin/SSG can't/won't do that kind of heavy revamp, so our best option is to keep the class how it was built from the start and try to tweak it up to good levels of perfomance.
Dec 15 2018, 10:18 AM
Lampion-Snowbourn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :) -Vastin

Thank you for that! I was wondering why it was released on live, even though it feels like it might be meant for Bullroarer, but now I see there's a lot more feedback coming from live. :)

Just a suggestion to stances: if wanderlust would be addition to bear form, then could it be that the default form is man form (stance), and you toggle bear stance with one button?

As you have to get out of bear form to use quest items, it's really necessary to put the stance to a shortcut, and one button less for shortcutting really makes the difference.

Thanks for the efforts once again!
Dec 15 2018, 10:47 AM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menegris

I want to mention that even with Slash working in beo form like on one of the Bullroarer tests (dunno if it was bug or not), even with that thing beorning already can play Red line/do dmg without need to switch in man form very often. Using Call To Wild, wrath potions, Expose in rotation (yes, only in beo form) and ofc Slash let you stay in bear form for 3+ min. I think its more interesting to maintain your wrath by your skills and rotation than just have permanent wrath. Here is a screen of 3 min combat bear form only before last big update (as you see no man wrath generation skills at all). Also it shows that earlier almost all beorning dmg was from Bash bleeds.

https://i.imgur.com/BjGKinI.jpg

Dear friend. First can i suggest you to NOT give feedbacks and bad ideas until you know the class.
Wrath potions ? Hello ?
Red beor can fight in bear for without need to switch to human from very often? Hello ?
In red bear you have one resource generating skill with decent dmg / but no more than that/ (Thrash), one bleed which you aply no more than 1 per 13 seconds (bash), one 30 seconds cd execute /which you need to use at full wrath/ and bees every 12 seconds. If you use Relentles maul for ST is fine, stil 30 sec cd skil.
So after you aply this rotation you have like 10 seconds thrash spam until you have your dots ready to reaply.
So far so good. As you say you dont need to switch to human form often. But you do. All skills i mention so far, will let you do less dmg than yellow cpt / if you use only them in rotation. Every fight you start with expose /human form skill only/ then you do 3 times thrash and aply all bear from skills i mentioned. Then you hit thrash again/ to keep it 3 stack/ then Slash / which move you to human form/ then biting edge to aply those jucy bleeds, then back to bear form and repeat.
You need to switch to human EVERY 15 seconds to keep your expose buff up / -40% target`s mitigation/

So 15 sec is not very often ?
And again, learn your class better. Then give advices. Some devs have bad habit to listen to all posts in the forums, picking the worse ones. And we dont want that do we...

Cheers.
Dec 15 2018, 10:57 AM
Deadly_Myths

imo after some tests in redline on my bear, man form right now is so uselss. you can sustain wrath from trash in bear form so easily which is really bad and makes no point of man form at all. you don't have to worry about wrath at all which was the fun part before that how to manage your wrath properly.
Dec 15 2018, 11:07 AM
zipfile

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

And again, learn your class better. Then give advices. Some devs have bad habit to listen to all posts in the forums, picking the worse ones. And we dont want that do we...

Cheers.

Much like you calling out other people who don't tank and then claiming Beornings have no AOE skills to grab aggro?
Dec 15 2018, 11:14 AM
Atreius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Dear friend. First can i suggest you to NOT give feedbacks and bad ideas until you know the class.
Wrath potions ? Hello ?
Red beor can fight in bear for without need to switch to human from very often? Hello ?
In red bear you have one resource generating skill with decent dmg / but no more than that/ (Thrash), one bleed which you aply no more than 1 per 13 seconds (bash), one 30 seconds cd execute /which you need to use at full wrath/ and bees every 12 seconds. If you use Relentles maul for ST is fine, stil 30 sec cd skil.
So after you aply this rotation you have like 10 seconds thrash spam until you have your dots ready to reaply.
So far so good. As you say you dont need to switch to human form often. But you do. All skills i mention so far, will let you do less dmg than yellow cpt / if you use only them in rotation. Every fight you start with expose /human form skill only/ then you do 3 times thrash and aply all bear from skills i mentioned. Then you hit thrash again/ to keep it 3 stack/ then Slash / which move you to human form/ then biting edge to aply those jucy bleeds, then back to bear form and repeat.
You need to switch to human EVERY 15 seconds to keep your expose buff up / -40% target`s mitigation/

So 15 sec is not very often ?
And again, learn your class better. Then give advices. Some devs have bad habit to listen to all posts in the forums, picking the worse ones. And we dont want that do we...

Cheers.

You know, I think writing this rotation actually is a simple way to see why Wrath generation currently doesn't work in Red Bear.

This is why I think so: Before the changes (when Wrath generation sucked too much actually) you did this rotation, not only because you needed to do it to achieve 100% of your damage, BUT BECAUSE you also needed the Wrath it gave you. So it basically it was a natural thing, just the flow of things.

After the changes, the rotation is still pretty much that... the only change tho is that since wrath generation is a complete joke, you actually do this rotation just because you need it to unleash 100% of your damage, not because you also need the wrath. Because you probably don't, you probably are sitting at so much wrath since your Execute is on Cooldown, and u have simply 0 way to spend it beside Bash/bees every like 10+ sec.
Dec 15 2018, 12:53 PM
Pfeifenkraut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback! :)

I'll look at whether it makes sense to fold the speed buff into basic bear form and remove the specific wanderlust form. The speed buff cancels in combat regardless, so that might work technically, but there are a few other factors I need to consider behind the scenes before I do that.

As for wrath, the change I made to base wrath burn vs. generation in bear form actually shouldn't have made as big a difference as we're seeing - it's mostly just a convenience benefit and a minor wrath bonus in combat. More significant in blue line obviously, but still really only amounts to a total difference of 2 wrath/sec.

Thrash generating wrath obviously makes a pretty big difference and perhaps the two together are sufficient to explain the much higher wrath generation - but I'm still dubious. I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

I don't want to choke it off mind you, but I do want wrath to remain a real consideration when you're trying to decide how to run your rotations, and when/how often you break out into man-form for faster generation, or whether you're willing to suck it up and stick with thrash and other bear form generation mechanisms like CotW - but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin

Yes, please do put Wanderlust in bear form, that would be so much more smooth to use! Also, it would be nice if the different form icons looked different in some way, even if it were just a different colour.

I definitely get too much wrath as opposed to how quickly I am able to use wrath. But other than a full red bar, it isn't making me more powerful. I still solo faster on my Minstrel, Hunter, and Runekeeper.

Being able to stay in bear form is amazing! Form changes should be a choice, not a constant necessity (which is really, really annoying). However things end up, whatever tweaks you have to make or power level Beornings are, I will play my Beorning if I can mostly stay a bear, and I'll abandon it again if it goes back to constant bear-man-bear-man spam.

Thanks for all your work on this!
Dec 15 2018, 01:12 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Much like you calling out other people who don't tank and then claiming Beornings have no AOE skills to grab aggro?

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

I don't also understand why you seems to be so negative that hoods is getting new sherif? Sure there will still be jobs for guardians, beornings are not going to replace guardians because guardians are still superior most of the situations.

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

BTW, I can showoff also playtimes:

Beorning
You have been playing for: 2 months 3 days 22 hours 43 minutes 19 seconds

Guardian
You have been playing for: 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours 53 minutes 9 seconds

Warden
You have been playing for: 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours 25 minutes 47 seconds

Hunter
You have been playing for: 5 months 4 days 14 hours 19 minutes 7 seconds

Lore-Master
You have been playing for: 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours 28 minutes 57 seconds

Want me keep going? There is still 5 classes left and yes I also have them. So you may know guardian, but I know them all. Not saying that I know them inside out, every little secrets of every class but I know them enough to know where they are good, how they works and where they are not good. And no, I am not trying to say that I am best player, I just know all classes.
Dec 15 2018, 01:50 PM
zipfile

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Damage multiplier on either hadn't been scaled since 105 days. War-chant at least scales somewhat with main-hand damage, but shield-taunt is as reliable as giving scissors to Parkinsons patient and telling them to cut snowflakes.
So, no, neither of those are reliable, as a single Raging Blades of a Champ, ROA of a Hunter etc. would immediately cause them to move away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

Yesteday, I had a Beorning tank Storvagun. Pull and gather time on the adds, while not exactly as quickly as on a Guardian, still seemed pretty damn good and nobody was in any danger from them. Yes, this is extended to the last part where Ancient Snow Beasts respawn.
Clearly, he must've unlocked the secret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

So, an extra target Shield-Taunt with half the range, which I'd much rather take than 4 targets 10m range. And a DOT on top free of charge. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

I don't also understand why you seems to be so negative that hoods is getting new sherif? Sure there will still be jobs for guardians, beornings are not going to replace guardians because guardians are still superior most of the situations.

Much like Hunters were upset when RKs were pulling ahead, what else does a Guardian do other than tank? Beornings are by far the superior healers already to Minstrels and only rivalled by Rune-keepers, who got the bonus of damage reductions. If the only role Guardians have is being contested so heavily, you'll see the discouragement to play a Guardian when Beornings can dual role so easily.
Weren't you upset a few ago about Rune-Keepers outperforming Hunters? Isn't this an ironic twist.*

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

Yes, I have. My Beorning, while forgotten, did see some heals in COS T2C during the farming days of LVL 115, when there were plenty of Arias to throw away. Made pretty much from necessity to overcome gearing grind.
Also, I've seen what a capable Beorning can manage and it's horrifying given the current state of how trait trees work. If every trait tree was a role and we cast away the old system of how classes were designed, then nobody would or should care. But as it stands, this is endangering the only role a class has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

BTW, I can showoff also playtimes:

Beorning
You have been playing for: 2 months 3 days 22 hours 43 minutes 19 seconds

Guardian
You have been playing for: 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours 53 minutes 9 seconds

Warden
You have been playing for: 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours 25 minutes 47 seconds

Hunter
You have been playing for: 5 months 4 days 14 hours 19 minutes 7 seconds

Lore-Master
You have been playing for: 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours 28 minutes 57 seconds

Want me keep going? There is still 5 classes left and yes I also have them. So you may know guardian, but I know them all. Not saying that I know them inside out, every little secrets of every class but I know them enough to know where they are good, how they works and where they are not good. And no, I am not trying to say that I am best player, I just know all classes.

Weird flex, but ok.
Clearly you missed the point why I posted the playtime, so I suggest you read Pavlins response.
*Nice to see your most showcased playtime is a Hunter.
Dec 15 2018, 02:20 PM
Menegris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Dear friend. First can i suggest you to NOT give feedbacks and bad ideas until you know the class.
Wrath potions ? Hello ?
Red beor can fight in bear for without need to switch to human from very often? Hello ?
In red bear you have one resource generating skill with decent dmg / but no more than that/ (Thrash), one bleed which you aply no more than 1 per 13 seconds (bash), one 30 seconds cd execute /which you need to use at full wrath/ and bees every 12 seconds. If you use Relentles maul for ST is fine, stil 30 sec cd skil.
So after you aply this rotation you have like 10 seconds thrash spam until you have your dots ready to reaply.
So far so good. As you say you dont need to switch to human form often. But you do. All skills i mention so far, will let you do less dmg than yellow cpt / if you use only them in rotation. Every fight you start with expose /human form skill only/ then you do 3 times thrash and aply all bear from skills i mentioned. Then you hit thrash again/ to keep it 3 stack/ then Slash / which move you to human form/ then biting edge to aply those jucy bleeds, then back to bear form and repeat.
You need to switch to human EVERY 15 seconds to keep your expose buff up / -40% target`s mitigation/

So 15 sec is not very often ?
And again, learn your class better. Then give advices. Some devs have bad habit to listen to all posts in the forums, picking the worse ones. And we dont want that do we...

Cheers.

If you read my post more attentively you can see that i was talking about previos situation, not live update. And thanks for sharing your rotation, i am sure its very usefull even if your discription seems a little bit messy^^
Dec 15 2018, 02:23 PM
ColMcStacky

I just want to leave a bit of feedback regarding tanking, as it's mostly what I've been doing on my Beorning since the update. Honestly, it feels great. I'm really happy with how it is currently, but I'd like to caution against nerfing the Wrath regen in bear-form. As it stands now (and how it was in the past), bear-form is superior to man-form while tanking mostly because of the morale/armour buffs, but also because of the skills available. Nowadays, not only can we stay in bear-form almost indefinitely while tanking (only dropping to man-form to re-up Guarded Attack when we get unlocky with procs), but we have enough Wrath regen to actually have a nice skill rotation in bear-form. Before, we couldn't use our skills because we had to maintain Wrath. Now, this isn't an issue in the least, mostly due to the change of Thrash giving 5 Wrath. I think it would be a benefit to keep this, at least in blue line. I'd hate to have to AFK tank again to conserve Wrath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

It's true that Beornings have limited range on their skills (most are 5m, Thunderous Roar is 10m, Vigilant Roar is 30m), but honestly it isn't much of an issue in my experience. And we don't need anything like Shield Bash or War-Chant because our two main taunts in bear-form actually have threat reflects attached to them that last 14s, so you can have a permanent uptime on it. Even with less "traditional" agro generating skills, bears are swimming in threat to the point where I can't lose something if I try. Honestly, I think it may be a bit too strong. It may help if the reflect is only attached to Thunderous Roar and not Vigilant Roar so that way it stays as more of a threat cooldown. It just seems overpowered to me to have a permanent threat reflect up on a tank with such an availability of taunts.

Personally, I don't even trait the Biting Edge taunt anymore. We don't need it. And even still, it seems like either Biting Edge or Guarded Attack (not sure which yet) has a threat modifier attached to it, where just using it holds a boss for longer than it should before even using a taunt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

I have to say that at the very least I agree with his point in that Beorning tanks are probably a bit too overpowered, but not so much his way of approaching the discussion. Not that I don't like it mind you; we have been underpowered for nearly 5 years now, it'd be nice if we have a few months to shine before we are more balanced. But for trash pulls, I would say that Beorning is at least on-par with Guards. We have more phys mits, less tact mits and cooldowns, and better threat generation as far as I can tell, however you value those components. On single target boss fights though, I think we become overpowered because we can forgo traiting Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide, and instead dip far enough into yellow to grab an in-combat rez. I'm honestly not too thrilled about Captains having this while tanking, especially in conjunction with Last Stand (although that's a discussion for another thread), but having another tank capable of having an in-combat rez (albeit at a high cost) is not something that I believe will benefit class balance in the long run.
Dec 15 2018, 02:56 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

I have to say that at the very least I agree with his point in that Beorning tanks are probably a bit too overpowered, but not so much his way of approaching the discussion. Not that I don't like it mind you; we have been underpowered for nearly 5 years now, it'd be nice if we have a few months to shine before we are more balanced. But for trash pulls, I would say that Beorning is at least on-par with Guards. We have more phys mits, less tact mits and cooldowns, and better threat generation as far as I can tell, however you value those components. On single target boss fights though, I think we become overpowered because we can forgo traiting Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide, and instead dip far enough into yellow to grab an in-combat rez. I'm honestly not too thrilled about Captains having this while tanking, especially in conjunction with Last Stand (although that's a discussion for another thread), but having another tank capable of having an in-combat rez (albeit at a high cost) is not something that I believe will benefit class balance in the long run.

How we are OP when we are way /stil/ below cpt and guard ? And even below wrd if we speak about trash/kite tanking?
Easy to keep agro on what ? On ST ? I agree with you, but only if you tank it toe to toe. When it comes to kite you have nothing outside one 10 sec cd / 5 sec force duration/ taunt, and one skill at 75 seconds cd.
Going to the bottom of the yellow only for one battle ress will kill you as a tank. Simply not worth it. You sacrafice both utility and mitigations.
Here is the build i run now https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
I do swith to hearten sometimes but i prefer stampede because it help me kite when i need and in the same time helps my fellows stay on the target + is overal good to have increase speed even for casual instances.
Hardened heat point is useless but i have no where to pui it anyway. Same as oposite pressence/ i hardly switch to human form to use it for agro grabing but is good to have.

With proper swipe menagment weakenning blow can be skiped/ as i did, because is human form too and is rarely used. I dont see the reason we have assertive roar/ 10% hp for 10 seconds after we use useless skill in human form ? why???
Thunderous roar is a must for aoe agro grabing. Outside that you have rellentles maul but is mele range and make you statick/ cant chanel it on move.
Thickened hide sinergy verry well with the 15% morale shield we get from shake free from yellow line / i mostly use as a shield than a break to be honest":)

Take down is usefull when you need to stun single mobs/ helps you save lumber from red + aoe skill fro multy target stun.

Even with cd increased vicious claws + rending blows make us the best induction interupters in the game right now. This helps dps focus on damage instead of keeping mind on boss/add casts. I do even take rending blows when play red. Having 2 interupts is nice. And fate/yellow line/ provide some nice crit chanse and some mits.
Tested many builds over the years and i find this more suitable for my play stile.
And yes i go deep in red to get that % morale heal but is hardly worth it tbh. Now when we have heavy armor and we can stack both hearten/if needed/ and recuperate/ extra heal is not nesesery. And we dont want healers to die of boredoom :D
So yes, imo blue just need revoke on aoe range taunt. Atm feels we have none.
And again, great job so far Vastin. Now we feel like propper class.
Dec 15 2018, 03:11 PM
camenecium

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

Second [...] is simply to make the core play cycle of the class smoother and more entertaining.

My beorning is not my main, and I play him mostly for questing, exploring, and some light group content. For me, the class is indeed smoother and more entertaining. I'm looking forward to the polish cycle and will probably start a new bear to relearn the class once it's released. Here's what I think after a few hours on my current bear:

Wanderlust is something I've wanted since Day One, so I'm very happy to have it. I'll echo others in saying that three stances is probably not the ideal solution. I think having separate toggles, one for bear/man form and one for Wanderlust is best: I liked having one key to hit to change form and would hope we get this back. I'd prefer Wanderlust to work like Hunter's Find The Path instead of Warden's Forced March, so I can turn it on when I'm solo or with a group of other beornings and just leave it on. I definitely don't want to have to turn it back on after every kill on the landscape; the current behavior where I have to manually toggle into regular bear-form or man-form when I'm unexpectedly attacked on the landscape is not ideal either. I also want to be able to turn it off so I'm not running ahead of others when casually grouping and in bear-form. Classes have been getting their toggles/stances earlier and would like to see Wanderlust available sooner, if not from Level 1. Since it's Christmas, maybe an unlock (maybe replacing an existing class trait like Feral Presence) that bumps the speed up to average horse? :cow eyes:

Wrath Mechanics overall feel better--and completely different. I can start and end fights as a bear in landscape now, where before I rarely had enough time to build wrath and change without going out of my way to pull multiple mobs. Wrath is now something you have and choose to spend while considering what you might need to do in 20-30 seconds. I understand that some people really like the swapping back and forth that the old wrath mechanic required, but honestly I found it tedious and de-emphasized why I wanted the class in the first place--being a bear. One bear's trash is another bear's lunch. (OK, all bears like eating trash and pic-a-nic baskets, but you know what I mean.) I do think, as others have mentioned, that man-form needs to find a new draw since it no longer has the monopoly on wrath generation and since bear-form is persistent, perhaps as an off-healer with one or two cross-line heal/buff skills? That would make it more appealing to swap to man in groups while still roaming the wilds solo as a bear.

Skill Bar Management has gotten a little more complicated in Blue and Yellow, or maybe I just didn't play in them enough to notice it before. One thing that draws me to the class is the Goldilocks number of skills: It's a nice break from my lore-master's skill-a-palooza! So I spent more than a half hour putting my skill bars back together for each line (partly because of line-switching cooldown, ugh) and didn't get to a happy place. I like to have the trait-line-specific any-form skills on both form's main bars and in the same positions, and that's just barely possible as long as I don't add skills from other lines. I wonder if one or two skills should leave bear form and go to man form in blue and yellow, both for skill bar balance and to make man form more appealing overall--not sure which, just a feeling. To reiterate from Wanderlust, as a keyboard player I really prefer a single skill to toggle combat man/bear forms. I've tried using the two gateway skills to switch forms in combat, but it just doesn't work smoothly with the blue and yellow lines filling up the main skill bar compared to red; it requires a key-chord. Especially now, having the single-skill toggle back on my 'H' key would be great since almost all form transitions are voluntary now.

Red Line just doesn't have enough skills in either form, unlike the other lines, so ideally I'd like to see one more skill for general rotation and one as a minor finisher when I'm not quite ready to commit to Execute and its cooldown. (This isn't really a new problem.) That said, I do find myself using Execute more freely since it won't force me out of bear-form. It could have a little quicker cooldown if we're can't get some kind of minor finisher. This is probably beyond your polish iteration but should be on the next cycle. A bleed version of Claw Swipe might be nice to get some more AOE into red bear form. Maybe it could be a finisher with results scaling based on current Wrath.

Dual Wielding is still something I'd like to see despite the (ahem) implementation details. TBH, it's a bit of a cosmetic preference for me with dual-wielding daggers in man-form feeling more bearish than a giant sword or club, i.e., fighting with "claws" and roars in both forms. Of course, I am not willing to give up the DPS for that look right now!
Dec 15 2018, 03:12 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Damage multiplier on either hadn't been scaled since 105 days. War-chant at least scales somewhat with main-hand damage, but shield-taunt is as reliable as giving scissors to Parkinsons patient and telling them to cut snowflakes.
So, no, neither of those are reliable, as a single Raging Blades of a Champ, ROA of a Hunter etc. would immediately cause them to move away.

All matters and you may forget that usually at least I will continue shield-taunt with shield-smash. So not only it does quite good damage, it stuns for 3sec and also does interruption. Now that 3 sec gives you time do do few more of many guardian AOE skills. When mobs gets out of stun, you may actually have already redirect up so even more initial aggro for you when they start to hammer you and you reflect damage. (Yes beorning HAD reflect but doesn't have anymore)

If your dps is that stupid that they do not allow you do build at least little aggro, then they deserve to die. Because of challenge change, dps need to play smart, same as guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Yesteday, I had a Beorning tank Storvagun. Pull and gather time on the adds, while not exactly as quickly as on a Guardian, still seemed pretty damn good and nobody was in any danger from them. Yes, this is extended to the last part where Ancient Snow Beasts respawn.
Clearly, he must've unlocked the secret.

As you pointed out, guardian does that job better. I haven't tanked at 120 with my beorning, don't have gear. But I used to tank at 100 and 105 cap quite much, also tanked some 2 dps cos runs with my beorning. It sure isn't as easy to play like guardian when you need to pick up mobs from here and from there, before changes there was at least short cd OP thunderous roar to pick stuff. (Yes that skill was ridiculous OP and it had to go, now it's much better, not saying it's perfect but it's better than it was)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

So, an extra target Shield-Taunt with half the range, which I'd much rather take than 4 targets 10m range. And a DOT on top free of charge. Thank you.

You know, that dot sure is game changer. /s
I'm quite sure that shield-taunt followed with shield-smash is better duo than claw-swipe initial + bleed + weak outgoing damage debuff. (That debuff tanks mastery, thats why it's weak)
Specially against mobs what are not immune to CC, that 3sec stun from smash gives you precious time. Time to build more initial aggro, time to hold mobs little longer before you gotta blow your challenge CD.
Beorning gotta keep running from mob to mob spamming claw-swipe to get them grouped, only when mobs are grouped you can pop example maul what gives you 5sec and if mobs are going to run away after that, you pop thunderous roar and then you should have them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Much like Hunters were upset when RKs were pulling ahead, what else does a Guardian do other than tank? Beornings are by far the superior healers already to Minstrels and only rivalled by Rune-keepers, who got the bonus of damage reductions. If the only role Guardians have is being contested so heavily, you'll see the discouragement to play a Guardian when Beornings can dual role so easily.
Weren't you upset a few ago about Rune-Keepers outperforming Hunters? Isn't this an ironic twist.*

Yes, RK's should not do more ST dps. Hunter should be top dog when it comes to ST and we are again getting there, wrong direction.
Beorning however is not going to make guardian jobless. Guardian simply is still superior because of better cd's and better base avoidance. Only where beorning gets small adventage is phys mitigation if both goes to 290k (New T3 cap).
Beorning will be most likely wanted mostly as healer, so nothing for guardian to worry about. Cappies should be worried because I think beorning can be quite strong offtank now because better mits and you can trait combat rezz to blue line if you are ready to give up thunderous roar and thickened hide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Also, I've seen what a capable Beorning can manage and it's horrifying given the current state of how trait trees work. If every trait tree was a role and we cast away the old system of how classes were designed, then nobody would or should care. But as it stands, this is endangering the only role a class has.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of trait trees. In my opinion there should be a cap how much points we can spend to trait trees, or secondary tree should cost 3 points so we cannot reach bottom from secondary tree.
Trait trees makes some classes benefit much more from trait points, example hunter could prolly use like 50 points more and gain more dps. When RK as example don't gain like no dps after 70 points, maybe accurate number is even less.

So can we look how this beorning change goes? I don't think there is yet enough data available to show that guardians are now useless and I highly doubt that guardians are in any danger.
Dec 15 2018, 03:20 PM
zipfile

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of trait trees. In my opinion there should be a cap how much points we can spend to trait trees, or secondary tree should cost 3 points so we cannot reach bottom from secondary tree.
Trait trees makes some classes benefit much more from trait points, example hunter could prolly use like 50 points more and gain more dps. When RK as example don't gain like no dps after 70 points, maybe accurate number is even less.

So can we look how this beorning change goes? I don't think there is yet enough data available to show that guardians are now useless and I highly doubt that guardians are in any danger.

On this I agree.
Dec 15 2018, 03:21 PM
camenecium

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

It's true that Beornings have limited range on their skills (most are 5m, Thunderous Roar is 10m, Vigilant Roar is 30m), but honestly it isn't much of an issue in my experience.

I haven't really paid attention to skill range limits, but I wonder if increasing it a little on the low end would help with visual clipping. When I'm going bear-on-bear on the landscape, we tend to be embedded in each other for most of the fight.
Dec 15 2018, 03:31 PM
ColMcStacky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

How we are OP when we are way /stil/ below cpt and guard ? And even below wrd if we speak about trash/kite tanking?

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Easy to keep agro on what ? On ST ? I agree with you, but only if you tank it toe to toe. When it comes to kite you have nothing outside one 10 sec cd / 5 sec force duration/ taunt, and one skill at 75 seconds cd.

Easy to keep agro in any situation, even if threat-wipes are a mechanic. Why would kiting be any worse than on Guard? not only do we have a 30m range single target taunt, and a 45s (not 75s, if you use legacy) 10m 10-target taunt, but we also get a permanent threat reflect which will maintain agro on every single thing that attacks us, even if we aren't taunting them all. On top of that, we get 50% uptime on both +25% run speed and +10% Evade chance, which helps for kiting too. And even then, I don't think we should support kiting anyway, as it really is just annoying more than anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Going to the bottom of the yellow only for one battle ress will kill you as a tank. Simply not worth it. You sacrafice both utility and mitigations.
Here is the build i run now https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
I do swith to hearten sometimes but i prefer stampede because it help me kite when i need and in the same time helps my fellows stay on the target + is overal good to have increase speed even for casual instances.
Hardened heat point is useless but i have no where to pui it anyway. Same as oposite pressence/ i hardly switch to human form to use it for agro grabing but is good to have.

I think if you tried out these AoE tank and single target tank traitlines, it may help a little bit more maybe. The latter isn't for all single target encounters, mind you; only when you know you won't need Thunderous Roar and you think you can get away without Thickened Hide. You really don't sacrifice utility or mitigations to trait either one of these lines, as you have nearly everything that both blue and yellow offer in both traitlines.
Dec 15 2018, 05:29 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? :D All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?
Dec 15 2018, 06:08 PM
mrfigglesworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? :D All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?

althought I agree guard and captain aren't going anywhere because of bpe advantages, crit D advantages, and cd advantages, the fact that you don't even know what skills debuff phys mits and inc dmg and say thickened hide is on a 3 min cd makes me suspect your knowledge of the class bro.
Dec 15 2018, 06:37 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

althought I agree guard and captain aren't going anywhere because of bpe advantages, crit D advantages, and cd advantages, the fact that you don't even know what skills debuff phys mits and inc dmg and say thickened hide is on a 3 min cd makes me suspect your knowledge of the class bro.

You gona kill me because mistyped 2 with 3 ? go for it, i deserve it....
If you use armour crush to aply dmg taken debuf on target, or if you use it to deal dmg, then you do it wrong. For this you have captains....
Swipe debuff is hard to keep up / 3 stacks atleast/ because his short duration/ 12 seconds/ atleast in fights where you need to move alot.
You get 10% phisical mitigation from guard. Tell me from where he get this 15% dmg reduce/ and its sounds like he mean total dmg reduce not just phisical.
About how well i know my class, you can read my previous post (page 6)
And please google ""sarcasm""
Dec 15 2018, 07:12 PM
ColMcStacky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

75% phys mit compared to 70% phys mit means you take ~8% less physical damage on a Beorning. We have 5% less tact mit, which at 65% compared to 70% means we also take ~9% more tactical damage.

Thickened Hide is actually a really good cooldown, being nearly as strong as Shield of the Dunedain, having a longer duration, shorter cooldown (2min, not 3min like you said), and healing you 1% for each hit you take as well. Self heals aren't that strong, point taken; I get about 2-2.5k HPS while tanking now. I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? :D All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?

In my own experience tanking, it seems like Beornings will become more desirable than Guards. Whether they will completely eclipse Guards is a completely different story (and I doubt it), but in most situations I do believe that we will be objectively better.

With respect to the morale bonus, I was comparing Beorning to Guardian. Guards don't have a morale bonus, so it is a benefit, likewise with the armour buff.

And yes, +15% incoming damage debuff is from Armour Crush, your second interrupt. -15% Physical Mitigation debuff is from Debilitating Bees in yellow line. These are two pretty significant DPS buffs a Beorning tank brings to the group, and Guards don't have anything comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

If you use armour crush to aply dmg taken debuf on target, or if you use it to deal dmg, then you do it wrong. For this you have captains....
Swipe debuff is hard to keep up / 3 stacks atleast/ because his short duration/ 12 seconds/ atleast in fights where you need to move alot.
You get 10% phisical mitigation from guard. Tell me from where he get this 15% dmg reduce/ and its sounds like he mean total dmg reduce not just phisical.

How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"? It is a valid benefit that Beornings bring to a group over tanking Guards and Cappies. Claw Swipe's debuff really isn't worthwhile because its additive with mastery (at least last time I checked, that is) so it isn't actually -9% damage, it's more like -1.5% damage on t2 (probably less on t3).

If that's the impression I gave you, then I apologize, I must've misspoken. I was referring to Armour Crush and/or Debilitating Bees, depending on which one you were referring to.

Just to clarify my position, I don't believe that blue-line needs a massive nerf. I really like how it feels. Right now, I would like to see the yellow line rez, Overbearing, moved into the yellow sidebar so it isn't accessible by tanking bears. Other that that, I don't think bears need any real nerfs in blue-line. I was simply outlining the benefits a Beorning has over other tanking classes, not asking for these things to get nerfed.
Dec 15 2018, 07:34 PM
mrfigglesworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.

bubble i think
Dec 15 2018, 07:53 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

75% phys mit compared to 70% phys mit means you take ~8% less physical damage on a Beorning. We have 5% less tact mit, which at 65% compared to 70% means we also take ~9% more tactical damage.

Thickened Hide is actually a really good cooldown, being nearly as strong as Shield of the Dunedain, having a longer duration, shorter cooldown (2min, not 3min like you said), and healing you 1% for each hit you take as well. Self heals aren't that strong, point taken; I get about 2-2.5k HPS while tanking now. I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.

In my own experience tanking, it seems like Beornings will become more desirable than Guards. Whether they will completely eclipse Guards is a completely different story (and I doubt it), but in most situations I do believe that we will be objectively better.

With respect to the morale bonus, I was comparing Beorning to Guardian. Guards don't have a morale bonus, so it is a benefit, likewise with the armour buff.

And yes, +15% incoming damage debuff is from Armour Crush, your second interrupt. -15% Physical Mitigation debuff is from Debilitating Bees in yellow line. These are two pretty significant DPS buffs a Beorning tank brings to the group, and Guards don't have anything comparable.

How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"? It is a valid benefit that Beornings bring to a group over tanking Guards and Cappies. Claw Swipe's debuff really isn't worthwhile because its additive with mastery (at least last time I checked, that is) so it isn't actually -9% damage, it's more like -1.5% damage on t2 (probably less on t3).

If that's the impression I gave you, then I apologize, I must've misspoken. I was referring to Armour Crush and/or Debilitating Bees, depending on which one you were referring to.

Just to clarify my position, I don't believe that blue-line needs a massive nerf. I really like how it feels. Right now, I would like to see the yellow line rez, Overbearing, moved into the yellow sidebar so it isn't accessible by tanking bears. Other that that, I don't think bears need any real nerfs in blue-line. I was simply outlining the benefits a Beorning has over other tanking classes, not asking for these things to get nerfed.

There is your meat shield / https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
So you go bees and sacrafice usefull skills only to take something which is provided by support classes like LMs, or burglers ? Or from yellow bear ? They dont stack you know. Pluse if you go yellow bees you screw blue ones bonus, because guess what, they dont stack.... About "How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"?"" you use them when they are needed. Not like spam them because they are not on cd... About hide, yes is nothing, compared to the guard and captain defensive tools.
Your rolle as a tank is to survive and maybe provide some utility. If you want to be jack of all traits, please be my guest. But dont tell me this is the right way of tanking.
Dec 15 2018, 09:07 PM
ColMcStacky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

There is your meat shield / https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
So you go bees and sacrafice usefull skills only to take something which is provided by support classes like LMs, or burglers ? Or from yellow bear ? They dont stack you know. Pluse if you go yellow bees you screw blue ones bonus, because guess what, they dont stack.... About "How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"?"" you use them when they are needed. Not like spam them because they are not on cd... About hide, yes is nothing, compared to the guard and captain defensive tools.
Your rolle as a tank is to survive and maybe provide some utility. If you want to be jack of all traits, please be my guest. But dont tell me this is the right way of tanking.

Oh. Where did I sacrifice the bubble on Shake Free? If you look at both traitlines that I linked earlier (AoE and https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg), they both include the 15% bubble. With the reduced cooldown I find it very helpful actually, especially when you are in a fight where stuns aren't an issue.

And yes, I don't trait the blue bees because they don't really help all that much, and they don't stack with yellow bees. I would rather have the mitigation reduction than the slight slow, although that's more a point of personal choice than anything; they can both be useful situationally. I just personally prefer yellow bees, as attack speed debuffs don't really affect your TPS that much on bosses that have scripted attacks (which are most bosses).

Regarding Thickened Hide, if you really think it's nothing, then you won't lose anything if you don't trait it. I think it's a fairly potent cooldown, and that only having one cooldown is simply a trade-off of using a bear tank considering everything else it brings to the table. While another would be nice, I don't really see the need for it. Beornings do need to have some downside after all. That is one area of tanking where other classes have a better appeal, which is important. Let each tank shine in their respective area of expertise (except for Chanks apparently, but that's a tangent for another thread somewhere...).
Dec 16 2018, 02:34 AM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

Oh. Where did I sacrifice the bubble on Shake Free? If you look at both traitlines that I linked earlier (AoE and https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg), they both include the 15% bubble. With the reduced cooldown I find it very helpful actually, especially when you are in a fight where stuns aren't an issue.

And yes, I don't trait the blue bees because they don't really help all that much, and they don't stack with yellow bees. I would rather have the mitigation reduction than the slight slow, although that's more a point of personal choice than anything; they can both be useful situationally. I just personally prefer yellow bees, as attack speed debuffs don't really affect your TPS that much on bosses that have scripted attacks (which are most bosses).

Regarding Thickened Hide, if you really think it's nothing, then you won't lose anything if you don't trait it. I think it's a fairly potent cooldown, and that only having one cooldown is simply a trade-off of using a bear tank considering everything else it brings to the table. While another would be nice, I don't really see the need for it. Beornings do need to have some downside after all. That is one area of tanking where other classes have a better appeal, which is important. Let each tank shine in their respective area of expertise (except for Chanks apparently, but that's a tangent for another thread somewhere...).

When ppl want to see something as black they will always do. Even if its white like milk.
Thanks for the links, they speak so much. And now i can see the way you think. I`l never go with such builds. They make no sence. Even for pvmp. And i`l tell you why.

Dont thik i try fight you. I dont lose my time in meaningles fights. Take my words as a advice. Is up to you.
One more /2/ thing before i start. I said ""sacrafice useful skills"" (didnt mention bubule) and that hide is nothing COMPARED to other tanks defensive cds. This not mean is nothing in general. Its a nice skill and is the only one we have. So now back to your builds.
As i said they have LITTLE sence if you use them for pvmp. I dont pvp in this game so pvp talk done.
About pve.
Bee color is personal choise. But i pick blue over yellow because of some reasons. First is more cheap. Second i do prefer to have slow attack on add instead to have my yellow bees useles only because i have support class in fellow who have similar skill. What if you have burg lm or yellow bear in fellow ? Stil agree yellow are more useful ones but this hardly justify the price of SP.You have armour crush wich increase target dmg take as 15% and in the same time you have spend 6 points in bee to get 12% phisical dmg taken incrase on target? Why? They dont stack. Must be some logic i miss.
I see you link this build as aoe one https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg. but i see nothing aoe in it. Anyway.
You pick nature mend and hardened hearth? how often you go to human form to use them? So you sacrafice 30% armor and 20% to get like 10k heal and some wrath from hh which you dont even need as a blue bear. Or you starving from wrath? Then you do it wrong. Why you skip quick recovery? Its changed in this patch and now is worth sloting. You go down in yellow to pick st range stun from leveling roar but in the same time you skip red aoe stun from lumber? You alse skip 5% crit and 15% thrash dmg/ your spamable skill. And all this ONLY to pick one combat ress? What about Healing Increase trait? With this build most/all/ of your heals come from HoTs which in best case are like 4k tick. Why you increase them with 10% ? for 400 more heal per tick ...?
If you want self heals, slot quick recovery + crit chanse/ this make your initial tick of recuperate much stronger and when it crits its like 15k heal. And you usualy spam it.
Phisical mitigation increase 3/5? Wont even coment that.
Is hard but i`l pretend i didnt see the skiping of hide and the only useful aoe taunt you have. Is hard but i try.............

Second build https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00002.jpg. Literaly the same, if not even worse
You again put meaningles points in hardened hearth. You again get ranged st stun skiping the aoe one. You again have 10% healing increase / 10% of nothing is stil nothing/
You again have debuf from bees/ which dont stack with one from blue line/ and all this is to get 5% ST dmg reduce for 12 seconds every 30 sec. Yes is 5% because you have 15% from armour crush.
Atleast you slot hide and roar this time.
Its admirable that you spend lots of mithril to unlock 3 extra trait trees. Is not bad to experiment with builds. Now you need practice.
If you just undust your bear, i play mine from release date. So instead of getting it as a fight, try to see the advices i give you. I`m far from the best beorings in this game, but i`m very close behind them.
And pls get that last SP. 91 atm.
Cheers

ps

The only human talent i justify is opposing presence. Its rarely used but i may come handy in some situations/ to grab aoe mele agro without waste t. roar or when r. maul is on cd/
Dec 16 2018, 08:30 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

I just wanna point out that beorning damage reduction abilities aren't powerfull as people think they are. Reason is that they just tanks mastery %, not real outgoing damage so how effective they are, it depends of mob mastery %. Also they are not reliable because they have damage element with them and they can get BPE, so if you want them to be reliable, you need to slot lot of finesse. And this finesse issue goes to beez, armour crush etc.
So it's better to use just self buffs in compare because anything what goes outside requires luck because I don't think any tank slot enough finesse to get buffs out reliable. I have on RK now almost 90k finesse and I am still getting too many resists so new finesse requirement for T3 is prolly close what we had at 115 cap so for tactical skills over 100k (I had 120k on rk) before this latest patch my rk had 73k finesse and it seemed to be ok, but this patch pushed finesse requirement way up.
Dec 16 2018, 02:13 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Second build https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00002.jpg. Literaly the same, if not even worse
You again put meaningles points in hardened hearth. You again get ranged st stun skiping the aoe one. You again have 10% healing increase / 10% of nothing is stil nothing/
You again have debuf from bees/ which dont stack with one from blue line/ and all this is to get 5% ST dmg reduce for 12 seconds every 30 sec. Yes is 5% because you have 15% from armour crush.
Atleast you slot hide and roar this time.
Its admirable that you spend lots of mithril to unlock 3 extra trait trees. Is not bad to experiment with builds. Now you need practice.
If you just undust your bear, i play mine from release date. So instead of getting it as a fight, try to see the advices i give you. I`m far from the best beorings in this game, but i`m very close behind them.
And pls get that last SP. 91 atm.
Cheers

Actually for PvE blue/yellow is way to go. You rather wanna trait yellow beez that blue beez because blue beez does not make any sense for PvE because specially bosses do scripted attacks so attack duration/induction debuffs makes no sense but -15% mitigation debuff makes lot of sense when you actually can land that debuff with low finesse.
I do not trait blue beez because it's useless for PvE, if I did PvP then it could make some sense to trait it and use it for healer.

Also it's perfectly fine to trait incombat rezz and not trait thickened hide and thunderous roar for off tank situation. You also get natures mend by doing that and you can pop rush, start kite and go man form do mend, hearten, mend, back to bear form and you have got some nice heal done to yourself now that mend is just 3sec and when you use rush and kite you get like now hits on that time.

I'm not saying that you do it wrong. I'm just saying that there is different ways to play beorning, I did saw one beorning using lumber when I was grinding CoS and it worked very well there but it just doesn't fix for my way to tank with beorning.
Dec 16 2018, 03:50 PM
jomanjy

can we get any clarification if beornings heals will remain the same or get nerfed ? it is way too strong compared to other healing classes right now. beornings needed a lot of buffs and reworks but 35k+ ST hps and 110k+ HPs is stupid imo.
Dec 16 2018, 04:37 PM
mrfigglesworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomanjy

can we get any clarification if beornings heals will remain the same or get nerfed ? it is way too strong compared to other healing classes right now. beornings needed a lot of buffs and reworks but 35k+ ST hps and 110k+ HPs is stupid imo.

confirmed getting fixed, the armor is healing for 100% instead of 33% for each fellow with the encouraging roar hot atm.
Dec 16 2018, 04:57 PM
jomanjy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

confirmed getting fixed, the armor is healing for 100% instead of 33% for each fellow with the encouraging roar hot atm.

yeah good to know that but still 35k ST hps is way too strong.
Dec 16 2018, 05:02 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomanjy

yeah good to know that but still 35k ST hps is way too strong.

Answered you in the other thread, too. But this is the official Beo Forum so.

1. Rks don't just "heal"/help with hps. They Support one target actually better than a mini even though the hps is lower.
2. Minis are bugged and some skills were nerfed too much. Minis are crying for a fix right now and not because of the Beo.
3. The Beo Hots esp the Tier 3 Hot generates extremely high crits. Tbh they could just take away the Tier 3 Hot of Encouraging Roar and the one target HPS would be lower.
Also - even though I really love it, the % heal that Comes with Bond of Trust is not needed anymore and should maybe be changed to sth else or nerfed to 1% or whatever.

@vastin: pls do not nerf the "whole" Thing. Step by step. There is a bit of time until the T3 Raid. T2 will be easily possible with or without a "not nerfed" Beo.
Dec 16 2018, 07:04 PM
Argira

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hildilas

Answered you in the other thread, too. But this is the official Beo Forum so.

1. Rks don't just "heal"/help with hps. They Support one target actually better than a mini even though the hps is lower.
2. Minis are bugged and some skills were nerfed too much. Minis are crying for a fix right now and not because of the Beo.
3. The Beo Hots esp the Tier 3 Hot generates extremely high crits. Tbh they could just take away the Tier 3 Hot of Encouraging Roar and the one target HPS would be lower.
Also - even though I really love it, the % heal that Comes with Bond of Trust is not needed anymore and should maybe be changed to sth else or nerfed to 1% or whatever.

@vastin: pls do not nerf the "whole" Thing. Step by step. There is a bit of time until the T3 Raid. T2 will be easily possible with or without a "not nerfed" Beo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomanjy

agreed with most of what you said.

i am not sure if you play RK or not but if so you'd notice RK bubbles didn't scale well at all for tanks. in T3 it is literally 1 hit from mobs and with it going off the -10% incoming damage/+10% inc healing goes away as well so you can basically keep only 1 defensive buff which is RSoW (-10% incoming damage). what makes RK is good atm -imo- is their heals are scaled good and they have a broken skill called fates which is -60% inc damage with a 1m cd and it should be nerfed tbh.

and i don't want beornings to be nerfed like minis. they were useless for so long and they needed huge buffs to be good. i just want it to be close to other healing classes not doing 10k+ hps difference.

RK does not have any defensive cooldown besides fates, so they can be compared with beornings.
Also just because RK has a broken skill, it doesn't mean beorning heals must be broken aswell.

In my opinion heals should be like this: RK healer should be the best ST healer, Minstrel should be the best AOE healer and Beorning should be the best burst healer.

I also think Minstrel changes need to revert back, because at this moment minstrel is completely useless in any content compared EVEN to blue line captains!
Dec 16 2018, 07:30 PM
TheRedfox

Since Vastin could probably use feedback at different level brackets. Did some GA/Fornost instances on level at lvl 30-32 brackets as yellow line heals on the legendary servers. With the limited heal skills available at that level bracket, it kept me on my toes and wrath moved around a lot. I needed to use ferocious roar a lot to keep wrath up. So just keep in mind that lower levels feel spot on for heal builds and hopefully keep it that way with any changes that might be done next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

I just wanna point out that beorning damage reduction abilities aren't powerfull as people think they are. Reason is that they just tanks mastery %, not real outgoing damage so how effective they are, it depends of mob mastery %. Also they are not reliable because they have damage element with them and they can get BPE, so if you want them to be reliable, you need to slot lot of finesse. And this finesse issue goes to beez, armour crush etc.
So it's better to use just self buffs in compare because anything what goes outside requires luck because I don't think any tank slot enough finesse to get buffs out reliable. I have on RK now almost 90k finesse and I am still getting too many resists so new finesse requirement for T3 is prolly close what we had at 115 cap so for tactical skills over 100k (I had 120k on rk) before this latest patch my rk had 73k finesse and it seemed to be ok, but this patch pushed finesse requirement way up.

To your first point regarding damage reduction skills, if you're referring to debuffs like Weakening Blow (Slam blue-line debuff) and Piercing Roar, then I definitely agree. As they're additive with mastery, they are fairly underwhelming. I only trait the latter because it costs no wrath, it's usable in bear-form, I have the trait points, and there's nothing else I'd rather get. Whenever I get around to finishing the Black Book on my bear for the 91st trait point, I'll end up getting the slow attached to Piercing Roar most likely, but even then it won't be too helpful in many situations as I hate kiting.

Regarding debuffs such as Armour Crush and Bees being resisted/avoided, I have a combination of reasons for traiting (and thus using) them. For starters, you need to invest points somewhere in the traitline, and they are partly a point-sink to get further in the tree. When it comes to actually using them, Wrath regen is pretty strong in blue-line at the moment (which is a really good thing) and I figure why not use some of it? Personally, I've always favored more support-heavy styles of gameplay (hence my LM being my main), so if I can adopt this type of gameplay on my Beorning as well, then I will. Even if they do get resisted/avoided often, it doesn't necessarily make these debuffs detrimental to use since Wrath is so easily recoverable, so I just view it as "icing on the cake" so-to-speak when they actually hit. That said, I haven't done t3 yet since avoidances were broken with u23.1.7, so we will see what happens when I finally get around to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Bee color is personal choise. But i pick blue over yellow because of some reasons. First is more cheap. Second i do prefer to have slow attack on add instead to have my yellow bees useles only because i have support class in fellow who have similar skill. What if you have burg lm or yellow bear in fellow ? Stil agree yellow are more useful ones but this hardly justify the price of SP.You have armour crush wich increase target dmg take as 15% and in the same time you have spend 6 points in bee to get 12% phisical dmg taken incrase on target? Why? They dont stack. Must be some logic i miss.
I see you link this build as aoe one https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg. but i see nothing aoe in it. Anyway.
You pick nature mend and hardened hearth? how often you go to human form to use them? So you sacrafice 30% armor and 20% to get like 10k heal and some wrath from hh which you dont even need as a blue bear. Or you starving from wrath? Then you do it wrong. Why you skip quick recovery? Its changed in this patch and now is worth sloting. You go down in yellow to pick st range stun from leveling roar but in the same time you skip red aoe stun from lumber? You alse skip 5% crit and 15% thrash dmg/ your spamable skill. And all this ONLY to pick one combat ress? What about Healing Increase trait? With this build most/all/ of your heals come from HoTs which in best case are like 4k tick. Why you increase them with 10% ? for 400 more heal per tick ...?
If you want self heals, slot quick recovery + crit chanse/ this make your initial tick of recuperate much stronger and when it crits its like 15k heal. And you usualy spam it.
Phisical mitigation increase 3/5? Wont even coment that.
Is hard but i`l pretend i didnt see the skiping of hide and the only useful aoe taunt you have. Is hard but i try.............

Lot to unpack here. First off, yeah, I guess I mislabeled my trait lines. Regardless, whichever has Thunderous Roar traited is the AoE line. Whichever has Overbearing is for single target bosses.

As I said in a previous post, yes, Bees color is a personal choice. I just prefer the offensive debuffs as opposed to the defensive ones since attack duration debuffs do nothing against scripted attacks that most bosses have.

Quick Recovery is a fairly useless trait honestly. If you invest 2/2 points in it, it increases what (for me) is a 3.8k heal to a 4.6k heal. Rather than add 900 morale to a heal for 2 points, there are other things I'd rather pick up. If the buff applied to initial and HoT, then I would trait it, or if it increased the initial by a more reasonable amount.

Bees (yellow, at least) and Armour Crush do actually stack; I just tested it now. Even so, you can use either situationally. Armour Crush benefits everyone, Bees only physical damage although to a larger extent than Armour Crush.

I don't see how investing points in Hardened Heart would be useless but not invest points in In Harm's Way, but OK. Regardless, I use both as a point-sink to get further in the trait tree. I don't need the Biting Edge taunt or the Slam debuff (and both are man-form, so as you pointed out, fairly useless). Also, I don't want to fully trait Sacrifice, as this build is for a boss fight situation and I don't want to kill the tank (myself) while trying to save a Hunt*rd or something.
With regards to Nature's Mend, likewise, it's a point-sink to get far enough to pick up Overbearing. Besides, in situations where I may die and get rez'd while tanking, Hardened Heart is still useful to generate Wrath quickly to get up and running again.

I get Leveling Roar from yellow rather than the AoE knockdown from Lumber again because it's a point-sink to get further into yellow. Everything else in yellow up to that point that I didn't trait is not very useful in the situation that the line is built for. It's really just an arbitrary choice.

"And all this ONLY to pick up one combat ress?" Yes. In-combat rez's are very useful, especially if it's the tank (most survivable group member) who has it. This one in particular is on a 3min cooldown, so very respectable. I'd rather see the rez either completely unavailable when not spec'd yellow or have an 8-10min cooldown when not in yellow, but so long as it's available, I will take advantage of it when possible.

Traiting the 10% Healing Increase from yellow makes Recuperate a stronger overall heal than Quick Recovery does, at least for me. Granted it's more points invested, but it's not wasted points as I need them to get to Overbearing. Here's my heal values as followed with each traited: (I can provide screenshot if you don't believe me)

Recup. (base) With QR (2/2) With HI (5/5)

Initial 3128 4123 3327

Low HoT 2189 2189 2538

High HoT 3128 3128 3625

Low Total 3128+6(2189)=16262 4123+6(2189)=17257 3128+6(2538)=18356

High Total 3128+6(3128)=21896 4123+6(3128)=22891 3327+6(3625)=25077

As you can see, both the low and high-end total heals from Recuperate are better (at least using my stat numbers) when using Healing Increase than when using Quick Recovery.

If I had more points, I would trait Physical Mitigation Increase more, but I don't at the moment. When I finally get around to finishing the Black Book and getting my final trait point on this toon, it'll be at 4/5, and I think 1% loss is acceptable in the process of picking up an in-combat rez.

To get Overbearing, you have to skip Thickened Hide and Thunderous Roar. This build is for a single-target boss fight though, so Thunderous Roar is next to useless there, and Thickened hide, while nice is not a mandatory skill. It's just my personal preference to have a setup like this right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Second build https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00002.jpg. Literaly the same, if not even worse
You again put meaningles points in hardened hearth. You again get ranged st stun skiping the aoe one. You again have 10% healing increase / 10% of nothing is stil nothing/
You again have debuf from bees/ which dont stack with one from blue line/ and all this is to get 5% ST dmg reduce for 12 seconds every 30 sec. Yes is 5% because you have 15% from armour crush.
Atleast you slot hide and roar this time.

As stated above, Hardened Heart is really just a point dump. I've actually toyed with the build more though since posting, and moved those points to fully trait Sacrifice in blue (In Harm's Way and All On The Line).

Also as stated above, Healing Increase is better for your self-heals than Quick Recovery (or at least for mine).

Again, I explained my Bees choice above.

And yes, I traited Thickened Hide and Thunderous Roar for my AoE build because I'm not trying to invest too heavily into yellow. This one is more of a general build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlin

Its admirable that you spend lots of mithril to unlock 3 extra trait trees. Is not bad to experiment with builds. Now you need practice.
If you just undust your bear, i play mine from release date. So instead of getting it as a fight, try to see the advices i give you. I`m far from the best beorings in this game, but i`m very close behind them.

There's no need to be so condescending. You've explained your reasoning for what you do, and I've explained mine. Can't we do this respectfully? And yes, I have multiple trait lines unlocked because I enjoy having multiple builds to tailor to different situations. I don't see why this should be a bad thing. Because of my experience playing my bear (not a lack of it), I found having different set-ups to be very helpful in different situations.

If you must know, I have leveled my bear on and off since they were first created, finally getting it to cap during the Throne of the Dread Terror raid and using it in there from time to time on t2c with a few different groups on my server (Landy). I've played it fairly steadily ever since. I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm just discussing different ways of traiting and explaining my reasoning for it while also stating that I believe the yellow capstone Overbearing needs one of two things to happen to it: either it has to be made a yellow sidebar trait, and therefore unattainable from blue-line, or increase the cooldown to 8-10 minutes when not in yellow-line. If I came across as combative in any way, then I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

Dec 16 2018, 08:53 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argira

In my opinion heals should be like this: RK healer should be the best ST healer, Minstrel should be the best AOE healer and Beorning should be the best burst healer.

I also think Minstrel changes need to revert back, because at this moment minstrel is completely useless in any content compared EVEN to blue line captains!

Why shouldn't all have the same ~% hps on singletarget and Group? All classes have the skillset for this. Theoretically speaking...

Woah you really think that the blue captain is better than the mini? The last time I checked the blue captains heals were stuck at lvl 95 or sth. Actually it didn't make a different If you took a blue or yellow captain^^....
+ minis are not useless at all. Minis are healing T3 Content, too.

And I'm sry but everyone should admit that the T3 Hot of ER is a bit too high. The krits of that Hot are sometimes higher than a main mini heal....
Dec 17 2018, 12:52 AM
Timberfox

Encouraging Roar

Why doesn't Encouraging Roar grant Wrath? I was playing in Yellow Tree today, and was trying to heal the Tank, but I had to keep jumping into the fight to build Wrath so I could continue to heal. Vastin said, "...the wrath REALLY floods in during combat..." Well, I can tell you that in one case that is not at all true.
Dec 17 2018, 01:17 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Do you really need more avoidance? On top of that, they get a ton of mitigations, on top of which they get extra morale and armour in bear form, on top of which you also want 50% avoidance?

I totally forgot what guardian gets by traiting blue.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Guardian%27s_Defence

All kind of cookies, including increased armour. So yes, beorning gets 20% more armour but when you add up your shield, I'm quite sure that guardian is still ahead on pure armour value.
And as you have already proven yourself, guardian is also ahead of BPE values, not to forget that guardian can trait +5% for block and parry, beorning has nothing to boost static avoidance and very little to actively boost it.

Oh and lets not forget https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Adaptability even more cookies for guardian when it comes to avoidance. Yes it's not much but everything counts.

I just wanted to bring this up because beorning 30% armour buff has been such a big deal and everyone has forget what guardian gets. Only way to make fair compare is to put all cookies to the table.
Dec 17 2018, 06:27 AM
Estelrandir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

Thrash generating wrath obviously makes a pretty big difference and perhaps the two together are sufficient to explain the much higher wrath generation - but I'm still dubious. I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

thrash change itself has the biggest impact in my opinion:

In old times: tier 1 + tier 2 + tier 3 = 30 wrath cost
now: tier 1 + tier 2 + tier 3 = 15 wrath gain

E.g., if we have 50 wrath, after 3 hits with thrash in old times we would finish with 20 wrath, now we finish with 65 wrath. That´s 45 wrath difference.

And then there is chance that skills which cost wrath will gain 3 wrath. It´s not about spending cost and gaining 3 back, it is neglecting the cost and gaining three. E.g., the bash costs now 20 wrath. If the legacy triggers, we pay 0 and get 3, so we end on +3 instead of -17.
Dec 17 2018, 08:22 AM
Aelbryht

Has no one else noticed unexpected extra wrath gain when you're using attacks/skills? Even without the LI legacy I seem to be benefiting from the chance to return wrath and it's applying to wrath builders and auto-attacks as well not just the wrath spenders.
Dec 17 2018, 09:01 AM
zipfile
Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

I totally forgot what guardian gets by traiting blue.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Guardian%27s_Defence

All kind of cookies, including increased armour.

https://i.imgur.com/5gBbQrc.png

Highlighted what actually matters, rest is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

So yes, beorning gets 20% more armour but when you add up your shield, I'm quite sure that guardian is still ahead on pure armour value.

Only hope token present, /w heavy shield and (in)famous GD trait
https://i.imgur.com/vIVZPxC.png

Here are values without shield and GD
https://i.imgur.com/FMeyOGC.png

Let's use the same value for a Beorning and see how it stacks up:
Morale: 213131
Armour: 184600

So, 6k less armour, but a ton more morale. Again, only hope token present.
This trait alone makes Beornings much better at tanking stronger enemies that don't care about BPE ratings, which have been plenty of ever since Osgiliath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

And as you have already proven yourself, guardian is also ahead of BPE values, not to forget that guardian can trait +5% for block and parry, beorning has nothing to boost static avoidance and very little to actively boost it.

Which again, is irrelevant, given how many enemies have special attacks that are actually damaging, list of the most dangerous ones I have written elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Oh and lets not forget https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Adaptability even more cookies for guardian when it comes to avoidance. Yes it's not much but everything counts.

Counter-quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipfile

Adaptability bonus is far too low
Adaptability Block bonus gets removed when you use War-Chant
Adaptability doesn't work on partial hits
Adaptability doesn't add and tier up it's bonuses properly when hit (there appears to be a hidden timer of between 3-4 seconds between uptiers)
Taken from the bug list I keep updating in hopes of a spring cleaning, I guess, which can be found here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

I just wanted to bring this up because beorning 30% armour buff has been such a big deal and everyone has forget what guardian gets. Only way to make fair compare is to put all cookies to the table.

Stuff above.
Dec 17 2018, 03:23 PM
Joedangod

2 years ago we brought our old, rundown car to the garage. We pointed out that the windows didn't roll down all the way, the radio would randomly switch between stations, the headlights blink SOS in morse code whenever you turn them on and going over 60MPH would cause the front-left wheel to fall off. We then left the car with the garage, hoping they'd be able to fix the issues and getting her running properly.

2 years later the garage called us back and showed us the old car. They'd poked holes through the windows so we could get that airflow we wanted, reduced the number of stations on the radio so it wouldn't switch so frequently, set the headlights to be on 24/7 so we could always see and chained the front-left wheel to the passenger seat so it couldn't get away from us anymore.

Sometimes I guess you just have to give up, dump the car in a salvage yard and find a new mechanic.
Dec 17 2018, 07:22 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipfile

Let's use the same value for a Beorning and see how it stacks up:
Morale: 213131
Armour: 184600

So, 6k less armour, but a ton more morale. Again, only hope token present.
This trait alone makes Beornings much better at tanking stronger enemies that don't care about BPE ratings, which have been plenty of ever since Osgiliath.

Which again, is irrelevant, given how many enemies have special attacks that are actually damaging, list of the most dangerous ones I have written elsewhere.

You are all a time trying to proof how irrelevant BPE is. If thats truth like you are putting it out, then we all can agree that all tanks and in fact all classes should loss ability to BPE, would that be good?
Because again in your own words, BPE is irrelevant.

If we have some braindead fight like Fingar where BPE didn't matter, it sure does matter on lot of other fights. It's perfectly fine that we have some special attacks what you cannot BPE but not all attacks are like that. Abyss boss 1 BPE did matter, in CoS BPE did matter, new instances BPE does matter or please go tank TG without shield and let me know how it went.
Also even that crit def may be irrelevant for raid, at least it has been on few raid now, it usually isn't irrelevant for other instances. So again that guardian +10% does matter.

You cannot just think everything raid in mind because again, there is other stuff outside of raid, this game is not just raiding, in fact right now there ain't no raid to run.

Now lets take more cookies in because you just keep ignoring the facts. What if guardian have picked right race, example dorf? It gets +1 phys mit, so dorf guardian takes always 3,33% less damage than other race guardian. Is this also unfair? Should dorf guardian lose their adventage?

How about WH +2% phys mit? I'm sure that awesome guardian like you does know that sometimes you can even pop WH pre-fight because there is skill reset when fight start, yes? Or you can pop it anyway because most of the time things only heat up after few minutes and you most likely have WH off cd when you may really need it.
And hey wasn't it actually you was telling how useless WH is? That if tank ever need to use it on raid, healers are bad? Quite irony here. So if its useless in your opinion, then you should pop it start of the fight because it makes you take 6,67% less phys damage.

Okey so 70% vs 75% mitigation difference is 16,67% less damage for beorning. Yes that sounds much. But when we add thouse dorf and WH buffs,
73 vs 75 is 7,41%
72 vs 75 is 10,71%

Maybe we should also look about redirect? 35% damage cut is quite big deal and I'm sure that awesome guardian like you can time use of redirect when you are going to get big hit right?
And did I already say that beorning guarded mitigation buff is not 100% uptime, however it does tier also down so you do not fully lose it if it doesn't proc or you don't refresh it. If there is fight where you don't get proc, you end up hopping man form every 10sec because buff last 12sec and when you hop to man form, you will lose armour buff and morale buff. Armour buff you get back when you go bear form, but morale buff must be again healed up.

EDIT: Also it seems that you should check your math because I have on guardian 186624 armour and if I remove shield, hop to red line, I am at 132779 if I multiply that by 1,3 I get 172613 what beorning would get with that same gear. That is over 14k difference and if I had teal shield from instance, that cap would increase around 20k, I think you can do a math on your own how many essences that is. Lets say 2 to be generous toward guardian. Thats 8770 morale that guardian can catch up that beorning 20% morale buff, what I again repeat is not 100% uptime if you need to hop back to man form.
Dec 18 2018, 09:51 AM
Ornelas

Red tree - Sharpened Claws

A thing that as been bothering me is the use of Ferocious Roar with the set bonus of Sharpened Claws (+100% crit change of your next attack) only in man form.

Assuming that now the most common rotation of Claw beorning is generating around 60-80 wrath as man form and then make the transition to bear form to use trash/bash and finally delivering execute at full wrath, repeating the cycle. Since the Ferocius Roar has almost the same cooldown as the highest damaging skills: Execute and Relentless Claws, shouldn't the Sharpened Claws buff be paired with these two abilities?

I find it awkward while i am skin changed into a bear with Execute or Relentless Claws nearly refreshed and then having to change to man form, using ferocious roar to get the buff (which btw has a destincly bear sound!) and then switch back to bear so i can finally use execute/relentless claws with the crit bonus.

Besides you get a sweet start up wrath generation, right after using Execute.

Another thing that I found out is that when i use Ferocius Roar and then Relentless Claws, is that every single hit during that channel critically hits, not just the first one, which makes it even more appealing to use it right after Ferocious Roar.

Am I wrong? Am i missing something?
Dec 18 2018, 01:09 PM
Vastin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ornelas

Another thing that I found out is that when i use Ferocius Roar and then Relentless Claws, is that every single hit during that channel critically hits, not just the first one, which makes it even more appealing to use it right after Ferocious Roar.

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin
Dec 18 2018, 01:19 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

Not in my hunter but Hunter dots are obsolete anyway ...
My warden dots seem to work properly as well.

But tbh this Combo of skills on Beo got us krit hits with every hit of the AOE damage skill (only know the German names..edit: Relentless Maul) before update I think.. remember talking to someone about this. At least there was a chance.
Dec 18 2018, 01:20 PM
Antophant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

He means "Relentless Maul" the channeled AOE skill, DoTs are currently unaffected by Ferocious Roar.
Dec 18 2018, 01:24 PM
Sarthien90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

It's not the case on my hunter (but I think bleeds are 'broken' anyway since a patch a few weeks ago, because they do less damage than the tooltip says, even on a training dummy 45 Levels below, but that's another matter :D)
Dec 18 2018, 01:34 PM
Arathrinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

This applies to LM's as well with Nature's Fury, when the initial hit crits all the subsequent dot's crit. Not sure about the lightning procs though. However, this has been the case for a long time.
Dec 18 2018, 01:51 PM
Gertes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

Not a DOT but the champion heal skill, fight on, on crit also all HoT impulses crit.
Dec 18 2018, 01:51 PM
Daniyel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

Hello,
Any runekeepers can confirm?
I thought Smoldering Wrath skill would be a great comparison, but since it's a channeled skill and not a DoT, I'm probably wrong about that.

on live today (u23.1.8)
I found that out of the five hits of smouldering wrath, 2 were crits and 3 were regular hits.
Dec 18 2018, 02:13 PM
mrfigglesworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

a similar outcome occurs when a blue captain gives his rk song brother 100% crit chance on tact skills followed by the rk using a channel skill called smouldering wrath. every smouldering crits.
Dec 18 2018, 02:17 PM
Ornelas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antophant

He means "Relentless Maul" the channeled AOE skill, DoTs are currently unaffected by Ferocious Roar.

Yes I do! My mistake, sorry
Dec 18 2018, 02:21 PM
B749

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

I saw this for the first time the other day while testing out some of the bee swarm DoTs - but I didn't (intentionally) make any changes to the beorning's DoTs that would cause them to become all or nothing crits. Has anyone seen this on other classes DoTs recently?

I need to figure out if there was an unexpected code change potentially affecting all DoTs, or if there is a specific Beorning buff/ability that is triggering this effect.

-Vastin

This has been around since the Beorning class was released. Relentless Maul always gets auto crits on all ticks if used right after Ferocious Roar (with the Red line setbonus trait Sharpened Claws, of course). Whether or not it is WAI, I don't know -- but rest assured it's not being caused by any change you made.

There are some other skills in the game that behave oddly with crits (such as RK's Combustion, which either crits on all targets or crits on none of them, or Burglar's Cunning Attack where using Aim will cause all following ticks of the bleed to crit). Might be worth looking into if you have the time, but I'd say there are more pressing issues in terms of class balance :p
Dec 18 2018, 02:37 PM
Aelbryht

Other than Relentless Maul, the only other Beorning skill I've seen with that all crit behaviour is Composure.

I think it's part of what makes it so strong since you go from 5% per tick to ~6.75% and, since all 8 are guaranteed at that higher level, it means the overall amount healed jumps from 40% to ~54% of your morale. Red line is also where we have our highest crit % so it's a pretty common event.
Dec 18 2018, 02:59 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by B749

This has been around since the Beorning class was released. Relentless Maul always gets auto crits on all ticks if used right after Ferocious Roar (with the Red line setbonus trait Sharpened Claws, of course). Whether or not it is WAI, I don't know -- but rest assured it's not being caused by any change you made.

There are some other skills in the game that behave oddly with crits (such as RK's Combustion, which either crits on all targets or crits on none of them, or Burglar's Cunning Attack where using Aim will cause all following ticks of the bleed to crit). Might be worth looking into if you have the time, but I'd say there are more pressing issues in terms of class balance :p

Can confirm that this is nothing new, relentless maul has always worked like this in red.
Dec 18 2018, 03:23 PM
Vastin

Ah, very well. At least I didn't break it with the latest update. ;)

In that case I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.

-Vastin
Dec 18 2018, 03:30 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

Ah, very well. At least I didn't break it with the latest update. ;)

In that case I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.

-Vastin

Good to know.

Any news on incoming beo nerfs or adjusting minstrel group heals? I feel sry for minstrels to be honest.
Their group heal sucks compared to the Beo's and there is no plausible reason why.
Get your minstrel dev mate and get healers on par pls. It is not good for the community.

Will there be a fix on the armour issue soon?
Dec 18 2018, 03:38 PM
maradakia

Is the Wanderlust run buff even working? I don't see any actual speed difference between bear form and Wanderlust. Has anyone tested this?

Can the coding and mechanics for when riding a mount not be applied here so that Wanderlust can be a true travel skill, and not just a non-combat run buff?

Couldn't it have the same 78% speed, and have the same "dismount" effect when hit x amount while in this form, dropping you out of Wanderlust?

How is a 40% (not yet working?) run buff that cancels out at soon as you enter combat, and which disables most of your skills in the meantime anyhow, the bear travel we were looking for?

It still forces Beornings to have to take man's form and ride on horses when travelling : (

Isn't it worthwhile both thematically and financially to make this a proper travel skill, so Beornings can remain in bear form when travelling at mount speed, and also opening up the possibility to add and sell Beorning travel (mount) variants on the store, buying different ones to have various different and cool appearances to choose from for your bear when travelling?

Instead of the 40% non-combat run buff skill, can't we make the speed 78% like a true travel ability, and use the same coding from all other mounts for getting "dismounted" (removed from this form) when attacked?

I really don't want to see this hope die here.

From the initial Players Council development of Beornings until now there has been a great deal of interest in this, and it has only grown over the years as more and more people feel the frustration of being a Beorning, who want to run free as bears, but who are instead forced to take man's form and ride on horses if they want to keep up. The inability to properly run around and travel in bear's form was a real bummer when it was first made that way. I was so excited when it looked like this was finally going to be fixed, as was written:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

In the meantime I'm also working on:

- Travel Form (because, duh)
--- Seriously, this is the main thing Beorn uses his bear form for in the books. :rolleyes:

-Vastin

Is this getting killed for the foreseeable future? I really hope not.
Dec 18 2018, 03:51 PM
Vastin

Quote:

Originally Posted by maradakia

Is the Wanderlust run buff even working? I don't see any actual speed difference between bear form and Wanderlust. Has anyone tested this?

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin
Dec 18 2018, 04:48 PM
maradakia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin

Does that mean an actual travel skill as a replacement for riding on a horse could possibly still happen, or is that totally dead as an option?

I don't know about others but I really don't have any interest in just a run buff for our Beornings, even a quick one.

The point was to not have to travel on horseback but instead to be able to travel as a bear, given that Beorn only ever travels in bear form, and specifically he accompanies others who are galloping for days on horseback, keeping pace with them in bear's form, and he most certainly would never ride on a horse.

And since Wanderlust loses the speed buff when entering combat, and our skills are disabled when using Wanderlust anyhow, could Wanderlust not simply be 78% speed so we can keep pace with people on their horses? It goes about it in a different way but effectively has the same limitations as mount skills do anyhow - you can't use any other skills while using this, and combat knocks you off - or in this case cancels your speed buff entirely. Maybe I'm missing something but this seems like a reasonable option and solution. While a Wanderlust at 78% speed would allow Beornings to not need to ride a horse, but to roam as bears, it wouldn't give any advantage over riding a horse - actually the opposite. Whereas you can take a few hits on your horse before being dismounted, in Wanderlust you lose all of your speed as soon as you enter combat. For those who want to opt to ride a horse, they can, but for the rest of us, with that one drawback of any combat ending the skill, this should be a viable option.
Dec 18 2018, 06:48 PM
snacktime

So have been playing beorning on Legendary servers. I run T1/T2 instances and haven't done any raiding yet. Definitely a casual player.

While I realize that content is ridiculously easy now days, on beorning blue line it's over the top. In angmar at levels 47-49 I was doing all the small fellowship/fellowship quests solo without much effort. Bogbereth I was tanking fine, ran away as it was just taking too long. I'm sure I could do the same content on a hunter/mini/LM. it's the difficulty that is so low compared to other classes.

Blue line for landscape feels OP not just due to how much wrath we have but the increase in dps also. I almost never dropped out of bear form, so I wasn't even using ferocious roar or hearten most of the time. The only time I used FR is when I was fighting multiple elites and wanted FR->Relentless maul for the crits. If I had to drop out of bear more often, it would be more challenging, but definitely still easy in comparison to most other classes.

Instances were a different story. I still felt pretty tough but focus changes to holding agro and positioning, and I found that much more challenging then I remember it being on guardian.

Anyways, the point of this was to give some feedback from casual players on Legendary servers, which seems to be the bulk of the population on that server.
Dec 19 2018, 03:51 AM
mrgray28th

relentless maul red line

Hey vastin, I know you are probably slammed with stuff like this but it has been a thing for a while. The red line trait "Brutal Energy" (requiring 20 trait points in red line) is not working properly. The trait states that Relentless Maul deals it's damage in half the time it previously did, however the damage remains roughly the same. This effectively halves the potential damage from relentless maul using the red line trait.
https://i.imgur.com/9ZnEPCf.png
Dec 19 2018, 05:30 AM
snacktime

I think I found where some of the extra wrath is coming from, unless this is some feature of red line I'm not aware of.

Auto attack crits are generating 3 wrath in red line. Doesn't do this in blue, and I didn't test yellow. Happens in both man and bear form.
Dec 19 2018, 06:48 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by snacktime

So have been playing beorning on Legendary servers. I run T1/T2 instances and haven't done any raiding yet. Definitely a casual player.

While I realize that content is ridiculously easy now days, on beorning blue line it's over the top. In angmar at levels 47-49 I was doing all the small fellowship/fellowship quests solo without much effort. Bogbereth I was tanking fine, ran away as it was just taking too long. I'm sure I could do the same content on a hunter/mini/LM. it's the difficulty that is so low compared to other classes.

Blue line for landscape feels OP not just due to how much wrath we have but the increase in dps also. I almost never dropped out of bear form, so I wasn't even using ferocious roar or hearten most of the time. The only time I used FR is when I was fighting multiple elites and wanted FR->Relentless maul for the crits. If I had to drop out of bear more often, it would be more challenging, but definitely still easy in comparison to most other classes.

Instances were a different story. I still felt pretty tough but focus changes to holding agro and positioning, and I found that much more challenging then I remember it being on guardian.

Anyways, the point of this was to give some feedback from casual players on Legendary servers, which seems to be the bulk of the population on that server.

You are speaking of blue line and how you pop FR to get crit for maul. In blue line when you pop FR you get extra max morale for 10sec, in red line when you pop FR it makes your next skill to crit and in yellow line when you pop FR, it makes your next heal to cost no wrath. And all of this if you have traited them for blue or yellow. Crit is tied to red line, so it cannot be even traited to other lines.
Dec 19 2018, 07:05 AM
snacktime

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

You are speaking of blue line and how you pop FR to get crit for maul. In blue line when you pop FR you get extra max morale for 10sec, in red line when you pop FR it makes your next skill to crit and in yellow line when you pop FR, it makes your next heal to cost no wrath. And all of this if you have traited them for blue or yellow. Crit is tied to red line, so it cannot be even traited to other lines.

Ya you are right I had that mixed up. I was bouncing between red/blue while doing the content.
Dec 19 2018, 07:58 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgray28th

Hey vastin, I know you are probably slammed with stuff like this but it has been a thing for a while. The red line trait "Brutal Energy" (requiring 20 trait points in red line) is not working properly. The trait states that Relentless Maul deals it's damage in half the time it previously did, however the damage remains roughly the same. This effectively halves the potential damage from relentless maul using the red line trait. http://prntscr.com/lwvf2c

Also it looks like that in red line maul only does 3 attacks even that channel duration is 4.3.sec
In blue line it does 3-4 attacks with same 4.3sec channel duration.
And in yellow line it does 7-8 attacks with 8,5sec channel duration.

So maul need still some love, not only that red line tree trait is too weak for what it claims it does, you also lose 1 pulse in red line. It seems to do just 3 pulses in red line all a time, yellow gets sometimes all 8 but sometimes just 7.

I don't know why we are not getting reliable 4 hits in blue what we should get or 8 in yellow what we should get. In red it seems like you never get 4 pulses, it's always 3. After last pulse animation keeps going but you do not get hit registered.
Maybe that channel duration needs little buff or 1st pulse needs to happen exactly that moment when you use skill.

Right now I see delay there, I don't know how much exact delay is because sometimes you get benefit and 1st pulse at same second, but most of the time you get this:

Code:

[12/19 02:53:50 PM] Heuheuheu applied a benefit with Relentless Maul on Heuheuheu. [12/19 02:53:51 PM] Heuheuheu scored a critical hit with Relentless Maul on the Training-dummy for 11,833 Beleriand damage to Morale.

Channeling starts when you get benefit and if there is 0,5sec or sometimes even more delay before 1st pulse, there ain't no time for all pulses. Thats my theory.

And lets not to forget that wrath bug is still there. You need to have 40+ wrath to use maul, if you use it under 40 wrath it will cancel before full channel.
Dec 19 2018, 10:53 AM
Seschat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vastin

The Beorning movement buff should work fine on its own - BUT - it can be overwritten by other movement buffs, which don't stack as a rule.

There's already a fix in the pipe to make the Wanderlust buff a much higher priority, so that it will beat most other movement buffs.

-Vastin

My Hunter friend is greatly amused by his ability to turn our Beorning friend's bear form on and off by toggling his movement buff button.
Dec 19 2018, 05:09 PM
Hildilas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

....

Talking about wrath you are right. It was actually fun to change forms really fast to get the best rotation. I just don't want them to nerf the healing magnitudes too much. :P
Dec 19 2018, 05:22 PM
xDRunnerXd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hildilas

Talking about wrath you are right. It was actually fun to change forms really fast to get the best rotation. I just don't want them to nerf the healing magnitudes too much. :P

It should be.
AOE heals are a lot stronger then anywhere need currently.
Dec 19 2018, 05:32 PM
Menegris

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

https://i.imgur.com/fZNOQ6A.jpg
Dec 19 2018, 06:20 PM
Antophant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menegris

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

https://i.imgur.com/fZNOQ6A.jpg

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.

Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.
Dec 19 2018, 07:03 PM
Menegris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antophant

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.

Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.

I though that dummy has no mits so Expose didn't burst our dmg here, maybe i am wrong:/
Dec 19 2018, 07:31 PM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menegris

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

https://i.imgur.com/fZNOQ6A.jpg

Quite awesome example, 3 top hitting "skills" are bleeds and 4th is auto-attack, so over half of the damage done is quite much free damage. Yes sure this is better example than one before what shower bash doing like 80% of damage. At least you seems to have some rotation and your not spending much time in bear form? By looking skills used it looks like you you just hop bear to refresh bash and armour crush and spend most of the time in man form refreshing bleeds, because i don't see trash tier 3 there.
Dec 19 2018, 07:40 PM
Pavlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antophant

For landscape/solo that's good enough DPS but you will quickly find out in instances/raids that due to Expose you won't benefit from Mit debuffs resulting in a Bear DPSer doing around half the DPS of Hunters/RKs/Wardens and even Champs.

Could easily buff Red line Beorning DPS by another 50% and nerf Expose to around 10% and end up around the same landscape DPS but more competitive group DPS.

Do you keep expose buff and bee debufs up ?
And why you use slam?
And cut at half aout attck damage/ on real fight atleast.
Dec 19 2018, 07:44 PM
Antophant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menegris

I though that dummy has no mits so Expose didn't burst our dmg here, maybe i am wrong:/

The dummies in the crafting area on Beta have Mits, some BPE and don't reset combat every 20 secs for DPS parsing.
Dec 19 2018, 08:28 PM
Menegris

Also i didn't notice that Expose Weakness Buff refreshes not only after switching into bear form but after switching back to man form too. So its easy to keep it up all the time with just single use of Expose.
Dec 20 2018, 06:05 AM
Starina

I do not agree with those who are crying for a beorn heal nerf. I healed the FI on T2 last night in the company of a top champ and a very good guard, and it was still hard work. I am fine to go into heal on my bear, but I don't want it to be a labour of insane passion for healing when I play my bear. Minis were op healers for a long time and I always was told it wasn't that hard to heal on mini, yet beorn shall be nerfed again? Yes, easy content is easy for a bear to heal - so is it easy for minis and rks, and harder content requires to be more on your toes with all 3, but make it a struggle and beorns will again lose their spot in raids, because we can still not really compete in dps. I have not tried tanking as of yet, but I doubt they will be anywhere near as good as guards when it comes to tanking, so healing it is for us right now in most cases.

There are some players out there who love to heal and want to do nothing but, yet I doubt most bears leveled to be hard working healers, I know I didn't, and I find healing harder content on bear just enough challenge to step forth as a healer. Make it a struggle and I will just not bother because I do not see why beornings should be in pain when minis for the longest time weren't with their healing. I heard no cries when minis were healing fine and easy, but now that the bear is finally given some love, it seems a problem.

I personally would have much preferred a dps spot in groups, healing is not what I love with every fiber of my being these days, but I can deal with it as is, as healing on bear is enjoyable enough - and as I said, it was by no means easy, and aside from the last years gaming, before then I always played healing classes in games, so I do know when healing is easy, compared to when it is fun, and when it becomes too much to bother with. Right now the bear is in the fun category for me personally with heals. You must look at hard content, not the stuff even my LM can manage to heal.
Dec 20 2018, 08:12 AM
JiiPee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starina

I do not agree with those who are crying for a beorn heal nerf. I healed the FI on T2 last night in the company of a top champ and a very good guard, and it was still hard work. I am fine to go into heal on my bear, but I don't want it to be a labour of insane passion for healing when I play my bear. Minis were op healers for a long time and I always was told it wasn't that hard to heal on mini, yet beorn shall be nerfed again? Yes, easy content is easy for a bear to heal - so is it easy for minis and rks, and harder content requires to be more on your toes with all 3, but make it a struggle and beorns will again lose their spot in raids, because we can still not really compete in dps. I have not tried tanking as of yet, but I doubt they will be anywhere near as good as guards when it comes to tanking, so healing it is for us right now in most cases.

There are some players out there who love to heal and want to do nothing but, yet I doubt most bears leveled to be hard working healers, I know I didn't, and I find healing harder content on bear just enough challenge to step forth as a healer. Make it a struggle and I will just not bother because I do not see why beornings should be in pain when minis for the longest time weren't with their healing. I heard no cries when minis were healing fine and easy, but now that the bear is finally given some love, it seems a problem.

I personally would have much preferred a dps spot in groups, healing is not what I love with every fiber of my being these days, but I can deal with it as is, as healing on bear is enjoyable enough - and as I said, it was by no means easy, and aside from the last years gaming, before then I always played healing classes in games, so I do know when healing is easy, compared to when it is fun, and when it becomes too much to bother with. Right now the bear is in the fun category for me personally with heals. You must look at hard content, not the stuff even my LM can manage to heal.

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.
Dec 20 2018, 01:05 PM
Gertes

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.

Not only the heal is extremly strong, also the support that a bear can offer on top of that comes close to a yellow burglar. I really like the bear pre changes more, the heal was not super op, but still OK. And what he lacked in healing was mitigated by his strong damage/debuff support. Also his sacrefice is so strong, its basicly a panic cd for the tank, but in the hands of an healer.
Dec 20 2018, 03:23 PM
ColMcStacky

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiiPee

Look, if you don't wanna heal with beorning, you don't have any interest to even gear it correctly for healing and thats why you have trouble healing even easy content like FI's.

I heal Thigil Gundu T3 with my beorning and I can say that it's easy. You have HoT on tank what pulse every 3sec and it does 20-60k heals every pulse depending if it crit or not. That HoT alone is more than enough healing for many instances. Then you have splash heal what refresh your HoT what can do even bigger heal, roar can crit easily over 70k heal. And then you have bellow what also can crit over 60k and it can do that to every party member.
Man form things aren't that good but mending can crit also 60k and it has shortest CD of all healing skills. Hearten isn't strong but it still can do way over 10k crit pulses prolly even 15k if maxed outgoing healing what I still don't have and it pulse every second.
Soon maul is fixed so it also heals beorning what makes it very good skill to use when everyone has taken lot of damage. Maul crit pulses are way over 30k and it does 7-8 pulses.

So I really don't understand why someone have troubles to heal with beorning? Do you know that you actually need to max your tactical healing rating from your carving and add healing rune to your relics? They do a big difference now as you can see this picture. 1st row is with healing rune and maxed tactical heal rating and maxed healing legacies, 2nd is just with maxed healing legacies.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gk9ctsig9skt2y/scaling.png

There was time when tactical heal rating didn't matter for beorning, maybe you are not aware that it was fixed recently.

Mini or RK just can't come even close to HPS what beorning can currently push. Before beorning changes, we was already top on that chain and now we are even more ahead. With this change they increased beorning heals and increased cooldowns little, but not enough because our heals went up, not down. And in my opinion that CD increase was bad move anyway, it makes beorning healing even more burst what is already was. I would like to see heal values nerfed and shorter CD's that way we would get more steady healing and we could actually spot heal better party members who needs healing. Currently you need to rely quite much to Abyss 4-set bonus to take care of party healing what it does very well.
Beorning who doesn't have that Abyss set, will face troubles trying to heal full group without cappy.
I would say that Abyss set actually made beorning a good healing class at 115 followed with mini nerf what was very much required and requested long time. This direction where beorning is going, is making beorning very OP healer just like mini was.

The problem is that without the Abyss set, unfortunately Beorning AoE heals are terrible.

If you ask me, not only does the Abyss set need to be fixed (which Vastin said it will be), but the Encouraging Roar HoT needs to be reduced. There is no reason to have a permanent HoT that is that strong. I would much rather see an Encouraging Roar HoT that on t3 is 1/3 its current strength, but have our shorter cooldowns on Encouraging Roar and Rejuvenating Bellow that we used to have. And the current situation with the Abyss set basically creates a situation of haves and have-nots. Sure "anybody" can run an underleveled t2c raid 4-20 times to get the set bonus, but on the less populated servers, this might as well be as rare as the old, golden Warden earring from 85 cap.

Having this trait replace the Vicious Claws buff wouldn't be too bad I don't think, as I don't know anyone who actually uses this trait. It doesn't even matter that it's on the first tier of the traitline, as Encouraging Roar is yellow-line only, so the trait would be useless for hybrid builds. Just make it a 3 point investment for 10%, 30%, 50% of the HoT's total strength on the entire group (as the potency hopefully would be reduced substantially at t2/t3, thus the AoE component would need a bit of a buff).

TL;DR I would much rather see the AoE HoT at a lesser potency rolled into the traitline somewhere, and simply have the set bonus be +x pulses or increased AoE HoT magnitude or something along those lines.
Dec 20 2018, 03:42 PM
mrfigglesworth

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

The problem is that without the Abyss set, unfortunately Beorning AoE heals are terrible.

If you ask me, not only does the Abyss set need to be fixed (which Vastin said it will be), but the Encouraging Roar HoT needs to be reduced. There is no reason to have a permanent HoT that is that strong. I would much rather see an Encouraging Roar HoT that on t3 is 1/3 its current strength, but have our shorter cooldowns on Encouraging Roar and Rejuvenating Bellow that we used to have. And the current situation with the Abyss set basically creates a situation of haves and have-nots. Sure "anybody" can run an underleveled t2c raid 4-20 times to get the set bonus, but on the less populated servers, this might as well be as rare as the old, golden Warden earring from 85 cap.

Having this trait replace the Vicious Claws buff wouldn't be too bad I don't think, as I don't know anyone who actually uses this trait. It doesn't even matter that it's on the first tier of the traitline, as Encouraging Roar is yellow-line only, so the trait would be useless for hybrid builds. Just make it a 3 point investment for 10%, 30%, 50% of the HoT's total strength on the entire group (as the potency hopefully would be reduced substantially at t2/t3, thus the AoE component would need a bit of a buff).

TL;DR I would much rather see the AoE HoT at a lesser potency rolled into the traitline somewhere, and simply have the set bonus be +x pulses or increased AoE HoT magnitude or something along those lines.

we still have relentless mail and bellows. without the group hot we would still be better than minis and rks in group heals.

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

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	Recup. (base)	With QR (2/2)	With HI (5/5)
Initial	3128	4123	3327
Low HoT	2189	2189	2538
High HoT	3128	3128	3625
Low Total	3128+6(2189)=16262	4123+6(2189)=17257	3128+6(2538)=18356
High Total	3128+6(3128)=21896	4123+6(3128)=22891	3327+6(3625)=25077