(S)He wouldn't. They're coming along anyway. Purchasing HD would be for the quests and BB(EB). But (s)he asked about PvMP, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarooOstrich
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(S)He wouldn't. They're coming along anyway. Purchasing HD would be for the quests and BB(EB). But (s)he asked about PvMP, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarooOstrich
That was exactly my point. And yes, my statement is as unsubstantiated and unverifiable as his was. It was deliberately meant to be so.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
Making the acquisition of some trait points part of completing HD content makes the purchase and play through effectively required for Freeping, where Freeps before could get by on leveling with existing purchases of scaling content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Forgive me if I sound skeptical, but if I want to try to hybridize, I have to purchase HD and reach cap? And from what I understand, it's only a few points.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Sounds like I was right about the MMO trinity being alive and well.
So why couldnt those players just remove those skills from their skill bars and leave the rest of us to enjoy all our skills?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
That's one way of looking at it. Not how I'd personally view it. For one thing you won't necessarily need to purchase HD to reach cap. You can level other ways. And as far as character development goes, I am excited about having goals to work toward this expansion. I don't view that as a negative at all. Quite the contrary, I view it as a massive, massive positive. It's literally been YEARS since I had any excitement about where my end-game characters could go from here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
The non-hybridized character is still fun and playable. The more hybridized character may be even more so, and it's well within reach.
Oh, I suppose it will be helpful, but not required. You're talking about 5 or 6 points (I think. Could be wrong. Might be 7) Again, if you don't want to buy don't. If those couple extra points are that important then I guess you'll be buying. Seems rather silly to do it just for the points, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
You do realise that every single one of your posts is full of this hate , venom and vile you keep speaking of, dont you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firemane0
But I guess thats ok
You have been a gamer for 35 years you say, so its safe to assume you are 35 then, may I politely suggest you act with a touch more maturity when on the forums and speaking to other people, because your attitude so far is abismal.
One thing that people seem to gloss over with the "we'll get more points every level cap increase" is that the devs specifically said that in the future, they would probably add more ranks to existing parts of the tree as well as add new tiers to the tree. When I have seen this done in other games, the goal is to keep the same ratio of spec/off-spec points- in other words you may never get above 10-15% of your points in an off-spec if you want to do your spec well. I very much doubt we'll get much in the way of more points without being given a lot more things to spend them on in-spec to specifically keep us from going off-spec. The whole point of the penalty is to keep us from utilizing off-spec skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
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Originally Posted by Stephen1981
For the same reason the doctor doesn't tell you, "oh just pretend you're healthy." It doesn't solve the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Lets say its 5 or 6 points out of a stated max of 65. That's 7 or 9% of your base effectiveness. Certainly seems like it'd make an impact in PvMP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Ah I see. Thanks for replying hehe *sheepish grin*Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
I guess all we can do now is wait until the 18th to try it out.
I didn't say it wouldn't be impactful. I said it wasn't REQUIRED. Impactful or not, it still seems rather silly to buy an Xpac just for a few points. Now that I think about it, I think those extra points are for CLASS deeds, not zone deeds. If there are a couple for zone deeds (slayer deeds, for example) I'm not aware of them. The extra class deed points you'll get anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
According to the log in graphs readily available no beta phase ever reached 50000 logins for a whole week only about 40k to be more accurate, now if every one of those 40k logins were individual people and each person logged in just once a day that make 5714 beta players, but if you expand that and say that its more likely that people would log on more than once a day lets say twice, that now leaves 2857 players, 300 out of 2857 = 10.5% and 10.5% is a pretty damn good sample size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
http://lux-hdro.de/images/live/weekly-logins-us.png
I believe how effective and at exactly what level will really depend on class and what you are trying to accomplish. For example, on live I have a trait/gear set up that can get my swift bow induction down to 1.3 seconds. I like fast inductions and trait to decrease inductions and cool downs regularly. So I decided to see how close I could get to that one my Beta Hunter. At 85 it was nearly a waste of time, by 91 I was able to get 1.5 second induction without gutting everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
I don't mean to imply that the true utility classes (LM and Cappy) will ever be able to function as they did in the past. In some ways they are more powerful at the cost of the being completely able to do multiple things well at the same time.
There was no such thread though. There was and still isnt an official discussion thread for the trait tree system, which by the way was is mighty strange considering it is the single biggest change in this expansion, there is one for crafting, one for regions, but not one for the change that causes huge upheaval to every single player in this game and no-one has ever said why.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
When was Beta open for 7 days in one week? It seems it was mostly 4ish IRC...
For PvP to early to say your gonna have to wait for the freep classes to be finished and balanced properly first, after that the creep classes will need attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamewizard
As for challenging group content, that is a resounding and absolute no, if that is a major draw for you in MMOs, HD is not for you(or me) I am afraid,
However get yourself a beta key from facebook and check it out yourself, you may find something for you.
I want to mention here that I went back and edited my post while you were responding. I changed "epic battles" to "the Deeping Wall raid".Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
The solo spaces are, I'll freely admit, fairly simple to complete. I think that's ok for solo content. Platinum medals are harder than facerolling through crafting instances or Gondamon skirmishes, and that's about all we need from solo stuff.
The raid is genuinely quite hard, though, by almost any definition. I haven't heard of anybody getting higher than an overall Silver completion on it yet, and I think most kinships are going to need several attempts before they even get an Iron medal.
I've heard others report that they got repeat items from the reward boxes, but I didn't see that myself. I suspect it's possible, just unlikely to happen until you've collected several medal reward boxes already.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Whenever discussions of hybrid builds come up, I'm reminded of the parable about the blind men and the elephant. In the parable, each of the blind men is feeling different parts of the elephant and therefore each thinks that he is looking at a completely different kind of animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
The problem when discussing the idea of hybrid builds poses essentially the opposite problem. Everyone is using the same term, but I strongly suspect it means completely different things to different people.
So, I look at the fact that I can split my points in half and get the Tier 7 capstone from my spec and a Tier 4 trait from another one, and I say, "Yeah, hybrids are looking good". Others are seeing the same thing and saying, "Hybrids are impossible". Neither of us is really wrong, we're just working from different definitions of what a hybrid is.
I feel the same when people talk about "support" classes. Some people say the Captain is not a support class after the changes. I say it still is. That's not because either of us is lying, it's because "support" is not a well-defined term, and we're using different definitions of it.
There are 5 points to be had from class meta-deeds. I have not personally seen them either, but evidently there are deeds within the Helm's Deep zone that grant 5 more trait points. I believe they're associated with Book 13 of the Epic, but don't quote me on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Well, and in some cases repeats may be desirable. For example, if it dropped me a really awesome bracelet, ring or earring I may want two of some (or all) of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
But the doctor doesnt then go to a healthy person and start giving them needless medicine either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
My point is skill bloat is a personal problem not a gamewide one I loved having all my skills and used them readily on all of my classes. I needed no medicine, I didnt even ask to go see a doctor
I'll make this one post on Beta, and I'm done with discussing it. We all know where this thread is headed and personally I want no part of the ritual Turbine-bashing some people find so entertaining. Because it's (a) pointless, (b) pointless and (c) pointless. It won't change the game, force Turbine to sell it to another developer, cost people jobs, or force WB to invade Boston and bang heads. It's venting, pure and simple.
My memories of beta, in no particular order or level of importance:
Turbine didn't listen to us.
Untrue on many levels. Where they didn't respond is when people called for the outright removal or postponement of the trait tree implementation. There were threads on this subject long before beta, and as I posted then I don't think this was ever on the table. Turbine have been pretty clear on this all along, that some people thought they would just cancel the whole thing after beta one is frankly ridiculous. I wonder how many people would expect Blizzard to drop Pandas from Pandaria, or in fact any developer of any MMO to just scrap months of development on the say-so of a group of players in a beta test? The feedback that was given, on the content and composition of trait trees (amongst other things), caused a lot of changes from beta one to now. Of course, not every suggestion was adopted, it would be unrealistic for this to happen, but to characterise this as some sort of stonewall is factually wrong.
We couldn't give feedback on trait trees.
Apart from taking over the general discussion forum as a whole? If the beta forums were visible people would see just how untrue this is.
Turbine staff were rude and sarcastic
Hmm, really? Saying that staff members should be "shot in the face", "incompetent", "be sacked" etc. etc. is pretty damned rude too. And those who can read the beta forums, the sarcasm level is pretty high throughout. Should Turbine staff follow different standards to players? Some people clearly think/thought so, personally I don't subscribe. Holding others to arbitrary standards which I don't feel constrained by would be the height of hypocrisy, which is why I'm not going to do it. Sapience posted (paraphrased) "Trait trees are coming. Period.". This was apparently rude, unprofessional, insulting and demeaning. Or a very straightforward statement of fact. Which you read it as depends on where you sit on the "We hate Sapience" question, if indeed you have an opinion at all.
Which leads to - we weren't allowed to be negative, we were howled down by Fanbois
Monumentally untrue. There's negative and positive feedback in abundance on the forums. And those who were positive didn't exactly have a great time, being told they were "unskilled", "didn't know how to play their characters/classes", and my favourite "because you don't know how to play your class you are not allowed an opinion, leave beta now". Both sides of the argument had their supporters who went too far IMHO, "too far" to me being the complete loss of rational civil discussion and the adoption of personal insults as a way to prove their points. Reading this thread I imagine most can see these attitudes even now.
Hyperbole
Loved by forums and the enemy of real discussion. One recent thread had a poster saying "half the players will leave on the 18th". Had this poster spoken to half the players? Doubt it. Not to be outdone, a few posts down we got "No, two-thirds of players are leaving". Wow. And so it continues, each post attempting to be more strident and eye-catching than the last, and we end up with (from memory on the specific classes) "ALL Guardians, Lore Masters, Champs and Minnies are leaving". All of them. Really.
This was the story of the beta forums, bellicose inflated claims repeated over and over as people found out that saying "I'm leaving" didn't cause too much of a stir. Not that it would, we hear it too often. We've heard it over and over from people still posting and playing now. For all that some people will be leaving (as in delete account, walk away, anything else isn't "leaving" at all), we know from past experience there are people who will threaten to do so, and then not leave.
The casualty of all this brinkmanship and grandstanding was as always calm rational discussion, which got swamped, certainly in "General Discussion". Spirited discussion is one thing but "MY way or I'm leaving" really does accomplish nothing.
Trait trees
Are a damned sight better now than they were at Beta 1. For which you can thank those who instead of just threatening to leave worked hard, analysed, discussed and prompted, causing a lot of changes in their content. And no, I'm not including myself, RL work has been extreme since August, and I've found myself without the time and concentration remaining to do what I would call a proper job of beta testing. Having said that, I have Hunter, LM, Champ, and Guard at level 85 and I've found viable and enjoyable builds for each. YMMV. And check out the player-authored guides, they're pretty good and unbiased. Something else I wasn't involved in, but a lot of hard work was done and the authors deserve thanks.
Level 85 focus
Especially with reference to trait trees, this was too high. People were concentrating far too much on what their traits would be NOW, how many points will we have NOW....and usually just ignoring the players at the previous 84 levels. Using my hunter as one example, it would have been better for me when leveling to get a trait point for that class skill, to put towards a trait spec I was using, rather than a trapper line trait which i would never use (I've never liked the line, whether it was within a tree or not). These changes affect everyone and give them real choices and options at lower levels. All of which was pretty much ignored. Maybe we should be given the option to use synthetic builds for beta tests, at differing levels? At least that way we would have to consider what the effects would be at level 25, 30, 35....
The other stuff
Landscape is predictably very well done, as are the Epics, and even the quests, although as in every MMO you still need to kill ten rats sometimes. Didn't spend much effort on BB/EB so I'll not comment on those, it wouldn't be fair. I'm taken by the story, the atmosphere and the characters. So yes, I'm looking forward to the 18th.
Going forward
Every single player regardless of level can experience the trait trees and some other changes on the 18th without spending a copper penny. I would advise anyone who hasn't been in beta to stick around for ten days and try them out. What have you got to lose? Opinions are just that, opinions, you may find you agree, you may not. Trying it out for real is the best way to go IMHO.
So, too long and rambly, but that pretty much sums up Beta for me. And yes, my money has already accompanied my opinion and I've bought HD, for which I am apparently "stupid", so be it. For those continuing to Mordor, great, see you along the way. For those not, happy trails, enjoy your other game(s).
Well to use my main as an example, I play as a champ and I find myself currently using both single target and AOE (shing shing) traiting a bit of red and yellow hybrid. But with the changes I'll have to sacrifice something and go either deep red or yellow. I looked at the changes and a part of me wants to run red. But the new yellow looks like more my playstyle. So in a way, Im forced to pick one of two paths for a majority of the game. I know you can hold at least 2 builds and swap them, but I don't relish the thought of battle,swap,battle,swap repeated ad nauseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidus
This probably is better posted on the champ forum, but I just wanted to show some of my thoughts about the changes. I am cautiously optimistic about them, sure. But I'd feel alot better if I were to see them myself, ya know? :)
As someone who's been playing the game for four years, I didn't participate in the beta because, with a toddler at home, I could't commit to having the time to play through the design changes and provide meaningful feedback.
I originally started reading this thread hoping to get a good understanding of the changes coming from those who experienced the beta themselves. Instead, it's been like watching a train-wreck in slow motion. I know that I shouldn't keep reading and yet was unable to pull myself away from the fiasco that is this thread. The condescension and attacks upon other players is utterly astounding. Now that I've finally made it through to the end (as it is now) I can say that I've learned little and will instead rely on the guides in the various class forums for that information.
My last comment would be this: Be nice. Disagreement is fine, but please don't put something in writing that you wouldn't tell a friend to their face. Please don't use 'passion' as an excuse for bad manners. LOTRO has always boasted that its community is one of its best features. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread.
Ok well lets use 4 days then and lets look at that graph closely(its hard to see the exact figures) but using a ruler and paper those BR figures only reach halfway to the 50k line so thats 25k, but lets be generous and say 30k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidus
30k logins / 4 days = 7500 logins per day, again lets assume each one of those logins is a different account i.e 7500 players, thats if each of those logins was a different person and each of those only logged in once a day, is that at all likely? no.
so lets say each person logged in on average twice a day again thats now - 3750 players, and 300 of that = 8% and that is still a very good sample size.
The reality is though I am willing to bet that average logins from each player is above 2. Given that on the first 2 stress tests on GLFF at prime time when all players could win a lifetime sub for just being on was never any more than 800 people.
so 10000 people in beta? not a chance.
Not really. What is bizarre was the use of that metaphor at all. I don't call it creative to try to fix something if the tools you have are inadequate. I call it stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Sorry, just a quick note here. I was able to get "shing shing" across all three lines. Yes, I had to skimp a bit on others, but I was able to. I think I was even able to get the improved version in Red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
I think its disingenuous to cast speculation that is wholly tilted toward a descending opinion. Perhaps I am naive, but I think better of humans than that. I think they like to give feedback whether as an opportunity or as a recognition and I believe those on Beta and other places have that intention in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
I am sorry, but I don't think the lack of substance to where a perspective resides is wholly left on either those embracing a strategic direction or those resisting it. I think a good company and sincere research can weed out the statistical far ends on either side, which is why median is relevant and not just averages.
Comments like: "This is wonderful go Turbine all the way!" are just as dangerous and empty as "This sucks and Turbine is killing the game!"
Let's try to have a bit more spirit of generosity in how we treat our fellow players, customers, and friends otherwise this all ends up being rather dismissive. People comment for the most part IMO because they care.
Realistically it wouldn't likely be like that at all. It would be more like, "battle battle battle battle battle ... ... swap battle battle battle battle." In other words, the situations where you'd feel the need to swap builds would likely be relatively rare for most content, even at lower levels. For example, if I'm a champ doing the Sharkey's brigands questline in Bree-land, I'd probably stick with AOE for the entire line, unless I found the boss to be too challenging (not likely).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
I don't think skill bloat is an individual player problem; I think it's a development problem. It's very difficult for Turbine to design group content for classes that can do everything. It's much easier to design content for the trinity. Turbine either doesn't have, or is unwilling to devote, the resources needed to develop content for classes the way they currently are in live. The solution to this development problem is to "streamline" the classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
I don't agree with it, but there it is.
That's my understanding as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly
That's a good example of how the trait trees are designed. Some of the "classic" skills are embedded in one trait tree or another, rather than being general-availability skills. But good effort was made to move the most important ones (e.g., Captain Marks and In Harm's Way) to a position where players who feel those skills are vital to their play style could grab them even if they wanted or needed to choose a different specialisation. A lot of words were spent hashing out exactly where various skills should be placed, and most of the requests were honoured to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Over the years, I've come to loathe the whole idea of "general" forums. Comparing this thread to the class threads is an excellent example of how I developed that opinion. Forums with tightly-focused topics almost always produce much better threads, because they can keep people on point. Lack of focus tends to breed threads where people go back and forth arguing twenty different things at once and then, because all the different threads of argument become impossible to follow, turn to picking sides and attacking each other instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brom_Ironfist
I mean, class threads in both the live and beta forums usually get pretty heated, but people at least do a better job of restricting the debates to "this specific change is bad and here's what should happen instead" rather than "you and everyone who agrees with you are terrible people and should be ashamed of yourselves".
The resourcefulness, problem solving and adaptation that comes in situations where one has limitations, that is the very essence of creativity. The more extreme the limitations, the more creative the resourcefulness. Necessity is the mother of invention. Have you ever seen Apollo 13? But I will concur, the metaphor became absurd over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
To be fair, I've never once seen the former, while the latter exist in abundance throughout the forums, fansites and in-game chat. That doesn't necessarily explain anything, but it may shed some light on why some people are getting a bit knee-jerk when they see a comment that has that flavour.Quote:
Originally Posted by JTollers
Yes, this was my experience as well. There was a great deal of effort and time put into making the most cherished skills as available as possible to players, regardless of build.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
I wholeheartedly agree with this. And, as has already been pointed out, the beta forums have dozens of threads devoted to general topics, so it's false to say there was no discussion of, or venue to discuss, those topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
I should be enthusiastic about an upcoming expansion. I've seen beta and can't say I'm looking forward to any aspect of the update. Of all the things they could have spent development time on - kinship revamp, pvmp map, new instances, scaled moria instances, a decent glff system, challenging content - I can't think of much I'd like to see less than this 'candy stall accident' change to skills and traits.
I don't envy the people who make decisions over which direction the game takes. So many different gaming styles and opinions to cater for, and since it went F2P the need to insert profitable in-game perks and gimmicks. Having said that, I struggle to imagine how they could have got it more wrong for me this time round.
Thats great for landscape content but what about group content such as t2 raids? where you have other factors in your group like other players, that have a job and can die/crash/go afk etc etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Its all great running about by yourself , but there are other people who enjoy grouping up and tackling content
But they are not developing group content and have spent the past few years making the game solo-friendly. This is what I don't understand? Why are they giving us classes for grouping without developing grouping content? And isn't that going to hinder the entire game up to lvl 85 since it was all designed for solo classes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieja
I've seen reports that they did repeat from (earlier?) betas. If that is not so, then I've criticised unfairly on that aspect. If it is a change which has been made since, then thank you to the devs. In any case, thank you for at least giving me hope... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
edit: ah, thanks Furtim for confirming that I'd not imagined it. Take point on two of things. 8 of them. 10 of them. 20 of them. That's where frustration lies sadly.
I think the message we are getting is that from the developers and publishers of the game skill bloat was a very real problem in some aspect or another. Just because we as players didn't recognize that does not make it less true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
That being said I think we have seen signs of this in ways we did not recognize like raid bosses being immune to certain skills or abilities.
I am helicopter engineer if I see someone trying to calibrate a compass with a hammer its doesnt matter how "creative" he is being with it, he is using the wrong tool, and I would suggest he starts using the right one. If someone has taken the correct tool out of his toolbox (a non-magnetic screwdriver) he doesnt do the job till he can get the right tool and do it correctly. have you ever seen air accident investigates?Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Yeah, but players that have had the experience can say overall, "I don't think even skill bloat whether one agrees with it or not was even successful." The LM for example on live can get up to 42 skills, and with a mix build can get 41 in what is coming should nothing change. The biggest drop is one line full dedication nets you 32 skills (a loss of 10). However, going vanguard in BB will net you an additional 12-15 skills if i recall, and that is outside of all the new interfaces you get for each item you can interact, which each one of those has 9-15 roughly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieja
There is much more to click and do and consider. This is just one example, perhaps other classes saw something different, but whether you like it or not, that is the State of Affairs. Whether that achieved the intended goal in eliminating skill bloat, I cannot speak to.
That is not really the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
1. Protector of Song has access to Tale of Tales, which gives three different Tales skills, one per stance (in fact, the Tales are merged with the stances themselves, applying when you change stance). Not only that, but these three variants are better than the Tales we have on live, offering Fate, Will, Vitality, Armour, Tactical Mitigation and one of the following: Finesse, reduced power costs, or improved Incoming Healing.
2. Watcher of Resolve has a spec bonus of +70 Fate and +70 Will. While it only applies to the Minstrel, it is an obvious throwback to the Tale of Heroism.
I get that you mean Tales are no longer available as basic skills, and no longer available to all builds, but that is part of the design principle of making Protector of Song the Minstrel buffing line, and giving it a few things that make it a worthwhile choice over Protector of Song. If a Minstrel can access all his/her buffs while in the healing line, then why would he/she try out Protector of Song at all?
Some skills are gated by line and some are found in the trees. No one is arguing that this is not the case. However, the functionality of many removed skills has been merged with other skills, and Minstrel Tales merged with stances when traited Protector of Song is just another example of this.
-Bel
Allow me to re-phrase it, then. If I see you trying to freeze a pond for ice skating with a book of matches and a blowtorch, "creative" is not the word I'm going to use to describe you. Apollo 13 is a good example. They had to come up with creative solutions to problems, true. But they had the tools available to put those solutions into practice. Without the tools to put the solutions into practice, the solutions made for a nice mental exercise and nothing more. Without the tools, the solutions were impossible to accomplish.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
So, first you are making the assumption that an observed effect has an assumed cause. It is true-ish. The fact that all classes can sort of do the job of several roles means that people didn't HAVE to group much any more. (No, I'm not suggesting no one ever groups.) Many times I've seen "I soloed *insert 3-man here*". You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to solo a 3-man. Since more people were soloing, there was not as much call for "group" content. When you are a company, you have to make decisions based on weird things like "Do enough people do this to justify X expenditures?" With these changes, fewer people will be able to solo 3-mans. More people will have to find a group. Therefore, in the future, more group content can be justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cefely
If anyone remembers Siege of Mirkwood's launch, they will recall how vocally disappointed many people were by the lack of progression after Moria. We wanted new traits, new trait slots, new skills, and just a general sense of improving over what we had before. While part of the problem was the 5 level gap and the poor gear on offer, a lot of it had to do with the fact that our classes had been virtually backed into a corner, with nowhere else to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Consider what our classes got with Siege of Mirkwood. We only get a level 62 skill each at launch, and these were in many cases very underwhelming (consider, for example, the Captain level 62 improvement: Fighting Withdrawal, which just removes the -30% damage penalty of the rarely used Withdrawal). In fact, Hunter and Warden did not get any new combat skills at all, receiving just a port to Mirk-eaves.
Fast forward to the next update three or so months later, when we finally got our level 64 skills (after much complaining), and again these are fairly unimpressive, mostly minor improvements to existing skills, like a small power restore.
It is not that players don't want upgraded skills, or didn't appreciate the token upgrades they got. It's that the upgrades are and feel unimpressive, and thus our characters are essentially set in stone at a much earlier level, only increasing in potency by a tiny magnitude over time.
Add to this the fact that many skills have already received upgrades by now, and some started to receive upgrades to the upgrades (Light of Elendil, for example), and we see that it was a very inelegant system that was simply unsustainable.
I certainly was not the only one commenting on the lack of progression after Moria.
-Bel
You'd think someone would stop and ask the people soloing 3 mans why they do it. Is it lack of sufficiently challenging things to do? A class which needs some rebalancing (ie nerf)? Someone just very drunk doing it for giggles but who'll spend the rest of the week solo in order to get the mats and gear to allow him to attend a Friday night raid? Should he stop soloing lest the raid be turned off because clearly he likes soloing far more than raiding? Not sure. Seems a bit more complex to me than reading numbers. Sure it must be to Turbine too to filter out cause and effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
It is my understanding that there will be a official global chat channel with this expansion (in addition to our normal player-created chat channels), so that is an improvement from my perspective, and something that I've advocated for pretty passionately over the past couple years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBlackSheep
Grouping has never been more relevant than it is with this new expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Yeah, I don't know how many items there will be available, but I imagine they will be adding more over time to maintain the appeal of Big Battles. I hope so, anyway. You can LOL at my hopeful naivete if you wish! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Here's another metaphor that got more and more absurd as it was stretched further. These points you make might be appropriate if the metaphor was a clear parallel to the situation in LotRO, but it's not. The reality is, we have a toolbox with appropriate tools, it's just that some people wish we had all the tools all the time. There is, in fact, never a scenario in-game where we have not got a tool that is appropriate to the task. There is never a situation in game where we have a tool that is as out of place for what we're presented with as a blowtorch at an ice rink. I wish I had more to add to this but we're getting so hypothetical now that it's become a meaningless discussion. If you were talking directly about actual situations regarding skills in-game, I would be more engaged in this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
Dont remember anyone soloing on level raids, or am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Also one of the reasons people have been finding content easier is that everyone in rohan was running around with FAs symbols ans multiple gold items, In RoI you had to actually complete the content to get the best gear, pugs for orthanc even with just a couple of weeks left till Rohan launched would be lucky to have 2 or 3 players wih a single FA in it or Saruman cloak/necklace.
Pugs for Erebor had the whole raid with FAs and almost everyone had at least 1 gold item, a couple would have gold items in every slot possible, gold rings that proc, cloaks that proc, necklaces that proc, it was ridiculous , it was no wonder that content seemed easier we were taking it on jacked up on Tom Bombadils secret stash of fury powder
When making analogies, it's easy to let the analogy get away from you. Analogies are only useful if they reflect the thing being analogised. Since we're talking about a game, a game analogy is going to be closer than a tool analogy.
When people ask to be able to do everything, it just reminds me of that Calvinballish game of oneupsmanship that kids play with each other. "I shot you!" "I had a bulletproof vest!" "Doesn't matter, the gun I shot you with was a bazooka!" "My bulletproof vest blocks explosions, though."
Is it fun? Of course! If it wasn't, kids wouldn't play it. But, at some point, they get tired of it and go play football or something instead.
To my knowledge there is no official global chat channel coming any time soon. Nor was one ever tested during the Helms Deep Beta. There was at some point prior to the announcement of Helms Deep a discussion about possibly making an official channel, but I dont know if anything else ever came of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Have you raided? What mini in his right mind would go with a tree line that would give his group buffs but not be able to rez? Please click my link below and watch some of the video's Ramble On has done T2CM. I used all my skills and kept buffs up for my raid. Now instead of being able to do all those things, I am now only able to do one or the other? That's not options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
ok lets talk skills in game then,Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
I am a champ traited for dps in a raid , all is going well, until the tank crashes , no warning just stops tanking, the big nasty troll and his adds make for the minnie (or me) explain what tools I have to , grab aggro of that troll, stay alive and keep the raid going till the tank gets back?
In game scenario 2
I am on my rk again dpsing quite happily, this time our healer has a lapse in concentration and doesnt notice the big red square he is stood in and dies, explain what tools I have to step in keep the raid alive long enough until the minnie can be rezzed, healed back to full, rebuffed and got his bearings back enough to take back over and allow me to go back dpsing again?
So to clarify your point, there USED to be no situation in game where we didnt have the correct tool in the bag, now after these changes the game is FULL of situations where we wont have the correct tool in the bag.
LMAO!! I have to say, sometimes I read these forums and feel like I'm in 3rd grade again.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
This is exactly my take on things as well. I have been lamenting the lack of meaningful progression for ages. I think the unsustainability of the system is obvious when you take a closer look at our character class development since level 50-60. Now, I think a lot of people are questioning that skill trees are the best solution to that, and I think that's impossible to say. I'm inclined to say that with the passionately expressed desire of many to be able to hybridize more and do more with their characters in off-trees, it seems Turbine has created a scenario that will give the classes somewhere to go from here. Whether people are able to see it right now or not, I think this approach will prove to be a much, much more manageable and sustainable one than the one we had. So in that sense it's a success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
While I have a minstrel at cap, I haven't really played it much, and I haven't participated in beta either. That said, even I am aware that there's only so much fun in spamming heals (addressing which, as you might be aware, had been one of the primary design goals of earlier minstrel revamps, so they would get away from spamming bolster courage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
I would wager a guess that this would a prime reason people appear a bit irritated that those tales, buffs, damage skills et cetera, as you even acknowledge, are buried within other trees, reducing the blue minstrel to spamming heals.
SNy
Hope so too :) If only because one of my toons must have a grudge against the RNG at all times ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
It is directly parallel, using Apollo 13 again. The tool in that case was the power left to the astronauts aboard the craft. All the creative solutions they could come up with were for naught, without the power to implement the solutions. lotRo is the same. You say we have all the tools, but some of them will be gated and unreachable on the fly. If you are in combat and need to trap adds, but you are traited so that you do not have traps on your bar, all the created scenarios you can concoct will not trap a single foe. It'll be like Apollo13, with no power: solutions without the tools to implement them.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
I saw it mentioned more than once in Q/A's and interviews with gaming sites that there would be a global channel. Perhaps Sapience can clear this one up for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Well, this helps to explain the many posts from beta testers in this thread noting that their feedback was ignored. It's pretty easy to ignore criticism if you funnel it all into one thread. Sounds like the kind of response which would lead a consistently polite poster to become this exasperated. And that's the kind of response I've seen all through this thread, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SapienceFurtim's "B" answer is the most accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
Was Fredelas seriously banned for that post? Because whoever did that has serious ego issues.
People can say what they want and spin all the analogies they want. Bottom line is - come Nov 18th people will be all judging for themselves whether they are having fun or not and then voting with their wallets. I'm not having fun so my vote is in. If people think that by some unlucky happenstance the few dozen malcontents in LOTRO all somehow got into beta then I suspect you, or more likely -Turbine accountants in the coming financial quarters - are going to be in for a surprise. But who knows. Nothing said here by any side will have any effect.
People know when they are having fun or not and if they are not, there's plenty of other companies happy to take their money.
My thoughts as well Crell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
It was my hope the polls could be used in a constructive manner especially given the forum anarchy that existed when I first posted.
Turbine left them up *bows* and, while they might feel hesitant to acknowledge this, I hope they did indeed consider this information of use.
Edit: I just read the reply by Sapience where "lightning rod" was the "most correct" of 2 options... Should have provided a greater range of options like the poll I say! :p
Disheartening personally... as was much of my BETA experience.
Again, CONSTRUCTIVE feedback and criticism. There is a subtle difference that escapes many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naraca
Except that didn't happen at all. In fact, the beta forums are filled with dozens of threads that are critical of the changes in general, and all the threads discussing more specific topics (such as class threads or threads discussing specific battles) were also full of criticism. There was definitely no limitation to people's ability to give critical feedback in beta. Much of the feedback was dominated with criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naraca
That is a bit baffling, isn't it? I meant to reply to your original post on the subject early on in this thread, but forgot. That question has been on my mind as well: Why strip the classes down into specific roles if they're not creating group content? It's got to be for future projects. I think I recall a blue name say this class revamp is to lay the ground work for future development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cefely
So maybe the poll wasn't as much of a lightning rod as it was thought to be?Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Hard to say. I think they at least had the effect of giving people a means of trying to quantify their rage. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ShireDweller
I find these kinds of questions strange, frankly. I think grouping is always relevant in LotRO, and these changes definitely make it more relevant than before. There's still a ton of group content in the game. I might start asking those questions if they began removing that content, but right now those questions don't really make a lot of sense to me. We are in a MMO, we have group content, I've seen nothing that makes me doubt there will be more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieja
But yeah, they did say that future development is one of the many reasons why some of these changes were made.
about time to warn the masses. This is no longer LOTRO. I picked this game because of the way it played . I preordered HD like a fool. I regret it. Playing it on beta makes me sick . I used to love the game so much i spent all day playing when i was off. NOW at least i will have time to fish and take photos again. Thanks Devs for forcing me to kick the habbit.
BUT since i was taught to always say something nice . The graphics are stunning. Game play on the other hand... trait trees have to go. Big Battles have to go. bring back skirms and raids . Give a tank something to do again .
I know I'm going to feel the progression when I'm leveling and I'm finally able to add 73 mastery to my build - there's a lot of junk in the trees, not just skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
I thought these Polls were actually some of the 'best behaved' threads in all of Beta. Posters mostly followed the rules and very few posts within each version were disqualified.Quote:
Originally Posted by FittyBolger
People that think Beta means anything are completely jaded.
Betas these days are basically free looks at what they are going to put out, they might change a skin or two, maybe adjust some damage here or there, but 95% of stuff people see in a beta is what is going into the game.
People that actually think what they say as 'beta testers' is somehow going ot manipulate or even change the development path are seriously deluded.
yea i get that but does not mean people not happy will not vote with their walletQuote:
Originally Posted by rodarin
Insofar as the general plan and framework is concerned, I totally agree. Once something hits beta, it's happening in that format whether you like it or not, and any attempt to try to change course is futile. However, any claim that beta is meaningless and that nothing changes, and that beta testers don't have an impact is completely untrue. I have been involved in LotRO betas, and I can say firsthand that a LOT of changes are made, a great many of which are directly driven by player feedback and suggestions. This was perhaps more true during the Helm's Deep beta than ever before. I realize some player classes had more challenges with this process than others, but the hunter you will see on live was hugely influenced by the beta testers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodarin
Completely untrue in this case. There were MANY changes in beta, not all the ones some people wants but there were meaningful serious changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodarin
There are arguably some dud traits remaining, but I think most of them were changed throughout the course of the beta. Most ratings traits were converted to percentages, allowing us (I believe) to go over the cap. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider +5% damage, evade, critical defence, etc. as "junk." A handful of dud traits may remain, though not all of these need to be selected (you can, in many cases, pick a different trait in order to get to the next tier, or spend your points in another tree). I expect some of these will be changed or moved around in the coming months, and this is where player feedback is important (as it was in beta to get those rating traits converted to percentages).Quote:
Originally Posted by Namesse
-Bel
Maybe they are going to go back to developing lots of traditional raids & instances then? A lot of people would love that. If this is why, I wonder why they don't say so? Seems like it would be something they would want us to know, as it might do a lot to get the morale up again for the raiders, if there are any left. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Frieja
It is just a total 180 from how they have been developing the game for years now, so I guess we'll have to wait & see.
There were indeed many changes that the beta testers worked hard to achieve. Though we cannot copy & paste from the beta forum, anyone who is serious about their class & how it will play should talk to those who closely involved in testing their class on beta to get an idea exactly what was presented in the first beta and the delta between that and what's in the latest (5.1).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidus
I don't want to say that we owe some gratitude to the class testers & those who worked hard to get the changes accepted and implemented, but it's not far off.
Just need now to get the minstrel fixed.
I have done all the betas but this one, they dont change much, beyond what I said, they adjust reps numbers and damage numbers but they dont change a lot of anything else. Semantic maybe. Or maybe this one beta was totally different than the previous 5, who knows.
Regardless this is now a free to play game, you get what you get, you can stomp and cry all you want, and the 'we vote with out wallets' ####. Yeah they dont care. I imagine they have sold as many pre orders as they always do. If not then I doubt it changes anything going forward. But since they are 'forcing' you to buy the expac to now get the epic story line then who really knows for sure.
But I havent heard anything that would make me spend actual cash to buy it. But that has been the case since Moria, the last one I did spend actual cash on, and even that one was borderline, but head and shoulders above any other expansion and half expansions since.
Let me get it right sir, with all my respect for you, you want to tell us that the number of ppl who asked for skills rewamp/remove is bigger than the zillions of ppl who are moaning now on forums, including me, about making us bots and destroying our versatility and fun of play? And Turbine as nice and listening team immediately took all the efforts to quickly make the changes? I wonder what 5 years kids coming from pandas found the skills too many or too unexciting ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
After so many pages with an average or 90% of NON agree with changes and less than 10% happy with the new system, does Turbine still thinks that this awesome idea was ok? I never saw on forums complainings about skills, only about bugs, stuff unfinished, broken or missing, also lack of content. I wonder why those was never fixed though ...
and apologies for offtopic.
Funny thing about that. With HD, you are expected to vote with your wallet BEFORE you can see whats in the box if you were not in Beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kongas
Sigh.. But,... I guess if they see server population drops about a month after..
Why a month? Because, those who come back to power level and get to end game, sounds like they will be done in a month, or less if they are too frustrated by the changes. This pretty much happens every new expansion anyways. Three months, max. Entire kins drop in on the new release, level and get into the new "raid" content, beat it and then leave, to repeat the process in another game.
What will then happen? Those who still daily log in and try to play the characters that they did not abandon for months at a time. If, they have low level tunes that are now FORCED to group on content in barren wastelands of server space, without another player in the Lonelands, or a kinnie willing to help them, they will be extremely frustrated. (Good thing the LFG tool works so well.. after all, I NEVER get directed tells from a level 46 in Moria to my level 85 in Hytbold saying, "I dont know you, come power level me, because you have the same quest as me.") IF, by that time, they still do not like the way their characters play, they will be gone soon after.
Now.. lets see if a positive works. Long time players continue to log in and server populations stabilize. Players learn to work with the new tools and learn new builds. Eventually, they forget this storm and remember the good old days before trait trees, but will be unwilling to go back to them.
BUT, what happens when Turbine wants money again? Will they say.. "Ya know, Turbine knew what they were doing after all, so I will blindly give them money for the next XPac?" Or, will they be more likely to say, "Turbine barely pulled this off last time.. lets see what happens after launch and check playability, then decide to buy."
(BTW, RoI (and the mess with wardens) made sure that my wallet stayed in my pocket for pre-orders after that. I got Rohan about a month after it was released with TP with my annual sub. Looks like HD will be the same. It is now just a matter of, will it be soon after launch or when it goes on sale. I already put the date of my annual sub expiration as the name of the sub, so I dont forget again.)
So.. I would guess voting with the wallet will be delayed until the next expansion or the next sub renewal. Who knows, maybe everything will be all rainbows and unicorns, come launch day and all this gloom and doom will be gone. Oh, wait I said the same thing with RoI.
I have no real big feelings about the trait revamp either way, but why would you think you're forced to group on solo content ? The landscape is generally easy enough there should not be a problem soloing it(Unless it is an actual group quest), even with the revamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
Now, for an attempt to ask a real question:
Was this ever proposed in Beta? To change the skill trees to be something like this:
Primary line all one point top to bottom
Secondary and third line
First Tier only 1 pt,
Second and successive tiers 2 pt
As has been mentioned, true hybrid classes like LM and Captain will definitely need access to more than just one line. Could this achieve the effect we need in those classes?
... Which rather limits your ability to speak about whether Turbine was responding to feedback and making serious changes during this beta, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by rodarin
Yes, many alternatives to the out-of-spec costs were proposed. I think I might have suggested at one point that Tiers 1-2 could be "exempt" from the out-of-spec costs or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
Honestly, I don't think I've seen any suggestions, concerns, or objections since the NDA drop that weren't brought up at some point during the beta process.
I think that I'll be able to adapt ok to the changes, but I am really unhappy about one thing with the introduction of the trait trees. I crafted a First Age 1h sword for my Guardian and spent a lot of TP making it as I wanted, to use to get to 95 and a new sword. But now I find that sword is going to be gimped pretty hard. I have major legacies and 3 minor legacies on it, all at rank 9, but on Nov 18, if I choose one of the tanking builds, (blue or yellow), 2 of my major legacies will be useless to me and one of the minor's, because they are split off into the red tree. I think it is safe to say that will discourage me from spending any more TP on any future weapons.
*edit* 4 major, not 5
Yes there was a thread along those lines that was kept open and encouraged to continue. Nothing has come of it, but perhaps it has ideas they will use in following patches and tweaks. There are a few cool ideas in that thread, including a way to purchase out of Specialization Set bonuses and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
We were told, in no uncertain terms, that the skill trait system was going live as it was. They had no intention of changing anything about the general setup of the trees. They took and responded to feedback about the specifics of individual trees only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
The problem isn't so much with the sample size, but its composition and generalizability. The more random the sample (vs self-selected) the better your chances are that you can make sound statistical inferences (avoid Type 1 and Type 2 errors as well as avoiding confirmation bias).Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Zillions? I'm not saying everyone is happy, that clearly is not the case, but actually if you go back through the 28 pages of this thread it's the same names popping up over and over, it's not 'zillions'. I agree, it's certainly controversial but exaggeration doesn't help anyones cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by andracy
Actually in one of the "The Trees Must Go" Threads that got locked people were directed by Sapience to the thread I mentioned, where we absolutely discussed revisions to how traits were costed and more. It remains unlocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthrax
They definitely were not interested in feedback about how the Trees needed to be scraped or a complete mechanic overhaul, and were quite clear that 2 points off spec is going live, but they also allowed discussion on fine-tuning the system for a later patch.
I have 3 minstrels at cap and I do participate in this beta. When in current raids on live I used to use all my skills including Call to Greatness, Song of Aid (things buried in yellow line now), Rally (only available blue line now), all the little niceties that I don't necessarily have. I could increase my group's dps (Anthem), increase the tactical mitigations of my group (Anthem), give myself a power return (Anthem)...and on and on. These were contributions I could make so we weren't always dependent on me standing there just hitting BC, BC, BC, BC...and it made it possible to take down T2 and T2c content. On the other hand now Bolster procs a group-wide heal of 3k and better, Chord is a big initial heal plus tics, and Triumphant Spirit has a 5-10k+ group heal with a 45 second cooldown in blue line with an LI legacy. Those are now the only 3 skills I need to heal any group content. Period. *yawn* Pardon me if I don't see this as an improvement, just a boring dumbing down of a class I happen to love more than any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNy-lotrolinux-EU
Yellow line can't rez anybody in combat because it's buried on T6 of blue line. Who is going to take a healer into a group that can't rez if something goes wrong? Are we required to take captains with us now if we want to trait yellow?
I don't want to find content challenging because I'm limited to 3 buttons. I want to find content challenging because it was well designed.
Yeah, it really sounds like the mini didn't get the dev attention and love some of the other classes did in this beta. I really hope this gets addressed in the time remaining, or in future updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaniemooch
Good thing it isnt gazillions... Then i would be sincerely concerned....Quote:
Originally Posted by andracy
Versatility has been destroying the game so far... I was thrilled when they announced the changes... Kill the versatility pls! Kill it with fire!
Just to clarify - this guy got banned because he was active on another Site? This seems a poor excuse. Not sure what OTOH means.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
I thought maybe some would appreciate being able to see a 'side by side' comparison (as it were) of live gameplay vs the same gameplay in beta. First I copied my lvl 26 LM over to the beta server. Then I recorded playing Trouble in Tuckborough first on Windfola and then doing the same in beta:
Beta vs Live - Solo LM Skirmish
I figured some would be interested in seeing how the changes effect low level characters and the kinds of gameplay changes they can expect to see. Before recording I had not looked at the LM changes at all and so this was kind of a "what will it be like on Nov 18" kind of thing.
Of course the usual disclaimer: anything and everything in the beta footage is subject to change between now and Nov 18.
OTOH - On the other hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feleg
And whatever site this was (I have no idea) I hear they posted entire copies of some of our beta threads.
Sorry I'm traited Lightning, no Fire till we're outta combat and I can switch specs....Quote:
Originally Posted by zagreb000
This has remained constant from the most passionate player base on both sides. The volume of posts does not necessarily equal the same volume of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runesi_EU
There's quite a few of us involved in beta who did not flout the NDA and who also post on the above-mentioned forum. So you'll find that the reason you're giving above is not factual. The last time I checked it's not against any rules that that one cannot post on this forum as well as post on 3rd party web sites. Otherwise what would happen to kin, raid alliance and other specialist forums?Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
In any event, giving ones opinions on the reason for a person's ban from this forum with the basis of that being pure conjecture is rather distasteful. Not sure what it adds to this discussion apart from trying to smear the character of the person involved. Only you know that.
Anyhow, that's all I am going to post now on this forum until the 18th and instead I will be squeezing the last drop of fun from all my characters before the changes hit us. If I buy HD it will be after go live and because I've got the TPs already accumulated so it won't cost me a penny.
Cheers all.
Yup, quite a lot of people don't realize it. Even some loremasters don't realize it. They get lumped in with other tactical classes (or worse someone calls them "casters"). It probably should have become a passive in the new system, except that could be considered broken since it would be restricted to just one of three trees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
But ya, we won't ever see the pre-Moria freedom all classes used to have. It's been a long journey of being squeezed into pre-approved builds and roles. If I managed to swallow trait set bonuses I suppose I can force down trait trees as well.
The players did have some very good discussions regarding this, you are absolutely correct. Any dev interaction in those discussions I believe was from a purely theoretical standpoint- they never had any intention of altering the "skill system" that was in place, as Sapience made abundantly clear. And I have zero faith that the 2 point penalty for off-spec will go away anytime soon. They'll only relent if their revenues take a steep nosedive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
Or use turbine points. You don't have to pay for those. Yes the price is high to grind it out but it's a small amount for VIPs (9 months of subbing earns the TP you need, and VIPs have no need to use TP anywhere else but to get an expansion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
While the Big Battles Provide exp, you need the quest to gain it. You do not gain exp for killing monsters...Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmattabir
Also, the exp gain is comparative to your Level. A lvl 15 character would get xp relative to his level and much less than a lvl 85. The jewelry rewards are also level scalable.