Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Darlgon]

Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of AOE wound/poison removal, when we are no longer able to do this in HD? The ability to trait for it is gone, now it's single target only.
Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of +15% melee damage via "Sword and Staff" legendary, when we no longer have this trait or this stat?
Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of Improved Staff Strike, which we lost? (+5% maximum morale, +25% damage, +25% crit chance, +50 crit damage, +50% devastate damage, 5s stun on crit)? These stats are gone with that skill, and I'd very much like to hear how their functionality was not lost. Maybe you know something that I'm simply missing? But then again, my LM is merely my main, surely if it had been my occasional alt instead, I would have been much wiser about this functionality business and rushed to embrace all the changes and nerfs.

First, let us look at what I said:

"...arguably we did not lose the functionality of any skills we lost."

I have bolded the two key words. The first demonstrates that I am positing an argument, and since I don't know the intricacies of every single class, there could be flaws in that argument. From what I have seen and played, however, most of the functionality of skills that were removed still exists, but in a different form. I gave several examples from Captain to illustrate this. There are other examples, however, where this is not entirely the case, and I think Agile Rejoinder for Hunter is perhaps one of those (I haven't checked recently to see if a suitable heal has been added elsewhere as a replacement).

The second word is very important, as I and others are discussing removed skills, not traits.

1. The skill Knowledge of Cures has not been removed. Sure, its AOE functionality has been taken away, but in its place Lore-masters can remove 3 Fears, Wounds, Diseases and Poisons, not just Wounds and Poisons. So, in one sense it is a nerf, but in another it is a buff. A tier six bonus for the Ancient Master makes it instant-cast, which should help with applying it to people. Most, if not all, classes have also had their effect removal skills buffed to apply to all types of effects, so the need for the Lore-master alone to remove them is less vital than on live.

2. Sword and Staff is not a skill, but a trait. Some of those bonuses are distributed around the trees, however. For example, the parry boost can be found in the Fend Them Off trait, along with additional buffs to avoidances and fire damage. From what I can see, I don't believe there is an equivalent to a melee damage buff, but then I'd argue that a Lore-master doesn't really need it, especially given the slew of new elemental damage skills, procs, etc. I highly doubt Lore-master DPS is going to suffer because of slightly less melee damage.

3. Master of the Staff (which turns Staff Strike into Improved Staff Strike) is not a skill, but a trait. Improved Staff Strike, the skill, does not give all those bonuses you listed. That said, several of the bonuses you list are made up for in one way or another with traits on the trees, including a morale one (which provides a boost to morale for you and your pet), lots of damage increasing traits (check the red line), and the Sword and Storm trait in Master of Nature's Fury, which lets Staff Strike call down lightning, dealing extra damage and stunning the target. From what I can see, much of the functionality of the trait you listed still exists.

You label the above two as "skills" when they are in fact traits, and no one is arguing about that at all. There is no doubt that the traits have changed considerably, with losses and gains, just as they have done in every expansion pack to date. I doubt that bothers people as much as the thought that a skill has been axed completely, with no functional alternative. That is the concern I was addressing, and I think in the majority of cases players will find the functionality of removed skills still exist in one form or another.

-Bel

Thank you for proving people who have no idea how to play a LM, should not be commenting on them, much less determining what skills they use. For reference:

1. "Proof Against All Ills" is a trait to change what was for a long time always a single target skill "Knowledge of Cures" into an AOE cure of Wounds and Disease. It USED TO BE INSTACAST, but Turbine decided people were spamming it too much and put a cool-down on it. The poster you quoted did not say which skill, but we called the skill PAAI, because it is an enhanced skill granted by a trait. What would have been wrong with making taking it back to that, then making it affect Fears and Poisons? (You know, like they did with RKs and Minis with the last xpac.) And.. does anything in ANY of the instances actually CAST THREE DEEP of ANY one, much less three of those on a single target at one time?

2. His complaint was that we lost the ability to use the trait Sword and Staff. If you had that legendary traited, you could do 15% more damage with your staff and sword. With that trait equipped, LMs hit harder on ALL MELEE SKILLS. On the current build, we can do as much as 1/3 our DPS with hitting things with our sword and staff in melee. It affected ALL our SKILLS. Your answer, we should stand back and pew-pew with the hunters is. .. horrid.

3. SIGH.. here.. read the wiki:

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Improved_Staff-strike

Improved Staff-strike is an even more powerful DPS skill than Staff-strike, dealing 25% more damage, having a 20% higher chance to hit critically, and hitting 50% harder on both critical and devastating hits. It deals even more damage when used in response to a flank event. On top of that, it causes a relatively long stun of five seconds if it hits critically or devastates (and the chance of that to occur is higher than that of other skills).
Improved Staff-strike always deals Light damage, regardless of the damage type of your staff. The trait required for the skill in addition increases your morale by 5% of your maximum morale, making somewhat up for having to go in melee range in order to use the skill.

Once again.. it was a trait that increase the power of a skill, making a new skill, so YES, it is a SKILL.

And saying that, well.. "its now distributed among other trees" is just silly. In no way can you say that the "functionality" was not lost. You cannot get all three if its in all three trees. Its like saying "Oh, you want an Egg McMuffin? Well, you now have to choose if you want the Egg, the Canadian Bacon or the Muffin, as we no longer offer our signature sandwich. But we will put ketchup on whichever you choose." That is no longer an Egg McMuffin. To say that any of them still exists is an insult to the LM community.

Oh, and, one other thing.

There isn't really anything similar to session play in Epic Battles. You play your own character. The drops, while semi-random, are far from useless. Not only do they have great stats, which far surpass what we have on our level 85 characters -- there are also ones that give class set bonuses.

-Bel

The more I read about epic battles, the more they sound like large scale versions of the skirmish Siege at Thangulhad, plopping boulders on incoming enemies. Or, the many sessions where you put aside all your skills and have to learn to use new ones if you hope to survive. (Example, the one where you turn into a champ to try to defend against the Balrog.) Sure hope I am wrong on that.

I am curious tho.. Class set bonuses? I thought all that was dropping was jewelry. Do THOSE have class set bonuses?