I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Hm, then it comes to a simple difference of opinion. That being said, others have done the math (look at the first post); I find the grind to be massive from any standpoint. Considering just how many Scrolls of Empowerment it requires now, I'm not sure how you could think otherwise. That being said, at least I'm clear on your standpoint now.

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The OP has put forth several mathematical calculations.

One set compares LIs to ILIs. This math is comparing, in effect, the cost to get a Yugo vs. the cost to get a Mustang. A "maxxed out LI" is a very different item than a "maxxed out ILI." At least, if you're going to compare them, add a multiplier to the maxxed out LI cost, so that we're talking something arguably comparable. We can then argue about whether the current multiplier ought to be 2 or 3.

If you do a straight comparison, of course the cost/effort to get a maxxed out ILI is substantially more than the cost/effort to get a maxxed out LI. The same way a Mustang cost substantially more than a Yugo.

The math set in the OP adds a huge multiplier to the ILI side: 10 character, and 24 ILIs. This multiplier is highly subjective, of course. I could want 3 ILIs for 12 characters, and then the multiplier would be 36x. In any event, as I note above, I do agree that the grind to max out multiple ILIs for multiple characters can be crushing. So how do you make it less crushing for the MCCS player like the OP, and not trivialize it for those with a single character with two ILIs (and there are a lot more of the latter)?

In addition, he also does the calculation in terms of pure SoMs, which are not the most effective way to gets ASEs. SoMs clearly are the route for crystals now, and I wouldn't "waste" SOMs on ASEs. Even if you have surplus SOMs, I'd save them for the next boost in ILI tier caps.

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Originally Posted by botoo

To the OP: it is our own choice to think of gearing up all toons

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Wait, does Turbine gives us the choice to gear up all toons? Since when? =P

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Originally Posted by botoo

Imho you can't blame Turbine if you look at a 5 year grind for all toons.

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You're forgetting that prior to U16 *everyone* was able to grind for all toons in a matter of months. But things have derailed BIG time since U16 and gone worse with U17. So do you think after all these years being able to play more than 9+ characters I suddendly have to stick to only to 2-3 characters and leave the others behind? 10 characters is perfectly normal since there are 10 classes and *MANY* people do play 10 characters. So I think the grind which should be the basic part of the game should be something achievable for players that have 10 characters. You guys are taking my example here but the grind isn't achievable even for people with 4-5 characters.
At U18 we'll be looking at the apolocalypse of grinds.

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Originally Posted by botoo

And since the current 'content' can hardly be qualified as interesting or challenging we better look elsewhere for fun in MMORPG's.

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The content is still challenging and fun but the rewards do not have any appeal. It doesn't mean that we won't be getting new content next year and with the amount of pressure on the team to make a new raid I don't doubt that we will even get a new raid in 2016.

I have to agree the grind is driving me away I have a main and 9 alts and I have no inclination to play there is just to many things to grind and I really don't have the time to do it I used to log every day and play for hours now I'm lucky if I log once a week :(.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

It's only spot on if you ignore the fact that a "maxxed LI" under the old system is not equivalent to a "maxxed ILI" at present.

In fact, in looking back over this thread, it appears that the folks making this cost comparison argument are overly focused on the "maxxed" part of the description. The label is irrelevant; what matters is the difference in power between the two. Considering the significant increase in power in the ILI at tier 44 than an LI at tier 6, it certainly ought to take more effort to get your ILI "maxxed out."

In addition, a straight comparison of a singleold-style LI to a single ILI no longer works, if it ever did. With the last tier increase taking the place of at least one round of discard-and-replace under the old system, you should be comparing the current cost of the current ILI to multiple LIs under the old system.

If a maxxed ILI were equal in power to a maxxed old style LI, then I'd be right in there complaining with you. Fortunately, this is not the case. (In fact, the ILI was equal in power to a maxxed old style LI well before we incur any significant expenditure of ASEs.)

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Oh, come on man. You're better than that.

You just spent the last several pages claiming that the grind hasn't increased appreciably. With some rather specious arguments to boot (Oh no! Finding a symbol! So hard!)

Someone finally bothered to fully crunch the numbers for you and objectively demonstrate that the grind has tremendously, objectively, increased.

And then, without even pausing to take a breath, you give us this (above)?

For two LIs (weapon + class item), the number of scrolls needed went from ~30 to ~150. And that's not even counting Star-lit Crystals.

And faced with those stark numbers, we get "Oh, but the LIs are better when you max them! So I'm still right!"

Really? That's how you argue? I see a lot of intellectual dishonesty on these forums. . . but this here might be my favorite example.

Have the decency to at least acknowledge that your prior argument was dismantled before you pivot and move to another.

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Originally Posted by Volsi

The grind is a big hill to overcome at this point but it is doable. What bothers me more and more is why are we doing it? I have naively held out that raids and traditional instances were on there way back. Even if there were traditional instances what are they going to offer for loot at this point... essences... essence jewelry... first age symbols... scrolls... crystals? What they can offer for loot at this point is just Meh. Everything has been broken down to component levels and there is nothing to get excited about.

I remember the joy of seeing Captain Arm drop in BG for a kinnie, or hoping to win the Wig-feld drop in Rift, or running the moria instances over and over to get painted vein or insidious cuffs. At this point there is no carrot to dangle, no legendary loot, just more of what we are grinding for and can obtain several different ways.

Overall I am getting very tired of being all dressed up with no were to go.

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This was very well-said.

I do think part of the problem is now WB/Turbine is coding for a different audience. The game that was designed for us at release was one that was driven primarily by creativity (to start with, profit motive took over at some point). When the sell-out to WB happened some high level meetings must have taken place and in those meetings someone pulled out a spreadsheet and some charts and convinced the rest of the group that the solo player was a more lucrative demographic to pursue (combined with the skeleton staff Turbine was left with - made sense).

Now, it's all RNG, anyone, despite effort and skill level can be geared as well as anyone else.

I still sport the Captain's Arm as my cappy's cosmetic as well as Noris from the Rift on my LM. Statements from a bygone golden-era.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

You're not going to buy a Mustang for the price of Yugo.

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Okay, so this is where you're now hanging your hat. The other hat hangar having been burned to the ground.

Let's review:

"A Mustang isn't that expensive compared to a Yugo!"

Of course it is. Here are the numbers! It's a tremendous difference in price. And, whereas we used to go from a Mustang to a Mustang Cobra every so often at a reasonable cost, we're now being asked to pay what's more like the immense difference between a Yugo and a Mustang even [i]more often[i].

"But look at the leather upholstery!"

(/painful-car-analogy)

First, you can't/shouldn't go from "it's not that bad" to "but look at everything you get" without acknowledging that the first argument fell apart.

We've been maxing our LIs as a means of maxing our toons since Moria. Though you claim not to be engaging in the "want vs need" argument, what's left of your position depends on it. The amount of work necessary to max out an LI has objectively increased dramatically. Whether you think what you get in return is valuable doesn't really enter into it. For those who maximize their toons, they'd despair of this immense, apparently regular/routine, increase in grind regardless of whether the legacy improvements were half what they are, or triple what they are. The increase in capability is essentially arbitrary. Especially in this game's current context.

You see this as Turbine moving the marathon's finish line every six months, but giving you an ever-better feast at the end to reward people for running the extra distance (with the option to just buy a ticket to the feast if you eschew the marathon, of course). For those people whose goal it is to just finish the marathon occasionally, what they're serving at the "finisher's banquet" is irrelevant. They don't need or want better crab cakes or a slightly better vintage of champagne. They just like to finish the marathon occasionally. And the fact that the finish line is being moved more often and the distance it's moved seems to be increasing each time causes them to despair of running marathons at all.

And the above is rendered all the more galling because it's strongly suspected that they keep moving it so far, and so often, because each time there are a bunch of people who just "buy the ticket" and gorge themselves at the banquet. They don't run the marathon at all. Then they tell those who do that they have no right to comment upon how they "enjoy their game."

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Originally Posted by Hurin

Oh, come on man. You're better than that.

You just spent the last several pages claiming that the grind hasn't increased appreciably. With some rather specious arguments to boot (Oh no! Finding a symbol! So hard!)

Someone finally bothered to fully crunch the numbers for you and objectively demonstrate that the grind has tremendously, objectively, increased.

And then, without even pausing to take a breath, you give us this (above)?

For two LIs (weapon + class item), the number of scrolls needed went from ~30 to ~150. And that's not even counting Star-lit Crystals.

And faced with those stark numbers, we get "Oh, but the LIs are better when you max them! So I'm still right!"

Really? That's how you argue? I see a lot of intellectual dishonesty on these forums. . . but this here might be my favorite example.

Have the decency to at least acknowledge that your prior argument was dismantled before you pivot and move to another.

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Sorry, my original argument stands. The flow of successive arguments in this thread led to the subsequent points. My points have shifted to different aspects because the type of grind, and the measurement points, under discussion have shifted during the course of the argument. A summary might help you understand my points so far.

My first point was that the grind that was reduced or removed was the destroy-and-replace grind that we had with the old LI system. We destroy all the effort we put into the old LI, and then effectively re-grind to get back what we just destroyed. As the last update demonstrated, that grind has largely gone away. Instead, we lose none of the effort we put into our current ILI, and instead build upwards from its current position. No one can seriously argue that the destroy-and-replace grind of the old LI system has not gone away with ILIs.

My second point was that the ILI grind in this last update was reasonable, at least for a single player with two ILIs. I measure reasonableness by how long it takes and how much effort it requires. A couple of weeks and modest effort to get from 100/35 to 100/44 for two ILIs is a reasonable grind.

My third point was that, since some folks want to engage in comparative math and measure the cumulative or total amount of resources/effort it takes to "max out" an ILI vs. an LI, at least engage in a true comparison based on the relative power of the item.

Surely you're not claiming that a maxxed out LI is equivalent to a maxed out ILI?

And surely you're not arguing that it should take the same amount of effort or grind to max out an ILI vs. an LI?


So, what is it you really want?

A Mustang, but for the cost of a Yugo?

No one gets a Mustang, we all have to drive Yugos?

Everyone can have 10 Mustangs, but for the cost of a single Mustang (or, God forbid, a single Yugo)?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And that's exactly why I like discreete gear with an ilvl system, because if you fall behind (or have to check out for a while), then getting back in the game is as simple as collecting whatever the top tier gear is at the time.

The essence system is the itemization game dev (if they even exist anymore) throwing their hands into the air and loudly proclaiming "I GIVE UP!". The only way this system is going to work in a sane manner is if the essences become really common, and essences can overwrite one another. Until that happens, the system is yet another poorly executed system that had the intentions in the right place.

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Fair point. I never was in favor of attaching an AA system to a piece of gear. As it is, the max tier levels for our ILIs will continue to increase periodically, just like character level caps. Even with splits of free tiers and unlockable tiers, the total number of unlockable tiers will continue to increase with time.

Since I can't imagine Turbine trashing ILIs at this point, or turning them back into discrete gear that we replace (since the whole point of ILIs was to eliminate that replacement), the trick is whether there is some means to help those who come back from a break or are starting from scratch to get back into the game.

Would a Gift of the Valar for ILIs work to move someone from the start to 50%? Or something similar that allows us to unlock a block of tiers (say, 5x1 or 5x7)

How about some form of super-ASE, that unlocks the next tier for all legacies?

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Originally Posted by Hurin

We've been maxing our LIs as a means of maxing our toons since Moria. Though you claim not to be engaging in the "want vs need" argument, what's left of your position depends on it. The amount of work necessary to max out an LI has objectively increased dramatically. Whether you think what you get in return is valuable doesn't really enter into it. For those who maximize their toons, they'd despair of this immense, apparently regular/routine, increase in grind regardless of whether the legacy improvements were half what they are, or triple what they are. The increase in capability is essentially arbitrary. Especially in this game's current context.

You see this as Turbine moving the marathon's finish line every six months, but giving you an ever-better feast at the end to reward people for running the extra distance (with the option to just buy a ticket to the feast if you eschew the marathon, of course). For those people whose goal it is to just finish the marathon occasionally, what they're serving at the "finisher's banquet" is irrelevant. They don't need or want better crab cakes or a slightly better vintage of champagne. They just like to finish the marathon occasionally. And the fact that the finish line is being moved more often and the distance it's moved seems to be increasing each time causes them to despair of running marathons at all.

And the above is rendered all the more galling because it's strongly suspected that they keep moving it so far, and so often, because each time there are a bunch of people who just "buy the ticket" and gorge themselves at the banquet. They don't run the marathon at all. Then they tell those who do that they have no right to comment upon how they "enjoy their game."

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It sounds like you want the game to be "finished" at some point. To use your analogy of a marathon, it is a race with a fixed distance and a clear finish.

But that's not an MMORPG. If it were, the finish line initially have been level 50. And LOTRO, like most MMORPGs, continues to move the "finish line" further down the way. The incremental move from the former finish line to the new finish line is not as long as the original marathon, of course, but the overall race unquestionably becomes longer.

And that's fine, because this is an MMOPRG, not a race with a fixed distance or finish line. The day there's no chance of further character level cap increases, or at least some form of Alternative Advancement system, the game is dead. Stick a fork in it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

It sounds like you want the game to be "finished" at some point. To use your analogy of a marathon, it is a race with a fixed distance and a clear finish.

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No. That's what you wish I were saying so that you could lay down that overly used cliche of a reply. Which is what you need to do when you don't have an actual reply that addresses what I said.

Funny how someone says: "We just want to occasionally finish the marathon." And you reply with "it sounds like you want the game to be finished at some point."

That's called setting up a straw man.

Everyone here understands the nature of MMOs. They expand. Grinds are reset. Etc. What is new here is that there is a new influence on how far and how often the marathon's finish line is moved. Let's see if you can guess what that is. . .

I've done every grind in the game, tyvm. I've been here since the beginning (as have you, apparently). I don't really need to have this game or how it has worked over the years explained to me. You, however, seem to need to have how it is currently working and how it has changed recently explained to you. Because you seem intent on insisting that it's all just more of the same. It's not. Because the influences and motivations behind the designs are demonstrably not the same as they used to be.

P.S. Read the marathon analogy again. It's not about wanting to be "done". . . it's about keeping the annual marathon's distance reasonable even as it increases. And, for extra credit, there's also a strong hint about the influences causing those distances to become unreasonable and increased more often.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

My first point was that the grind that was reduced or removed was the destroy-and-replace grind that we had with the old LI system. We destroy all the effort we put into the old LI, and then effectively re-grind to get back what we just destroyed. As the last update demonstrated, that grind has largely gone away. Instead, we lose none of the effort we put into our current ILI, and instead build upwards from its current position.

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The former LI system worked exactly the same way, just at a much lesser cost. Example - We got a level 95 weapon, we did the grind to take it to it's full potential (cost was reasonable, and could be done on quite a lot of alts if you put the time and effort in - 5 or 6 was easy). When level 100 came around, we broke that level 95 weapon, and picked up a new level 100 weapon - which **and this here is the part you seem to be missing** "at the very point we got it, before doing anything at all to it - was better than the level 95 weapon we worked on previously". We then leveled that new level 100 weapon up and spent scrolls on it to max it out (again, at a reasonable cost and grind time).

What we have now is exactly the same - except for cost, grind time and the fact that we do not destroy it. Example - Get level 100 weapon, grind it (at huge cost), next update comes, keep weapon (which is not at the start of update any better than before) - then grind it further (at huge cost).

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

My second point was that the ILI grind in this last update was reasonable, at least for a single player with two ILIs. I measure reasonableness by how long it takes and how much effort it requires. A couple of weeks and modest effort to get from 100/35 to 100/44 for two ILIs is a reasonable grind.

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Granted, the grind is doable and comfortable for one alt needing two weapons. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. Presumably though, when those weapons are done, and very strong because of the work put into them, you will expect the next level update mobs to be a lot tougher right? Else, what is the point in working on stronger weapons. So, in come the much tougher mobs, and the one alt with the great weapons, fights fine. What about the alts that didn't work their weapons because the grind is too uncomfortable or unreasonable when we start talking about more than one alt with just two weapons?

Do we just struggle through the next update mobs on those alts, then eventually be too weak to hit anything by the update after that or the one after that? Or do Turbine balance it, make future update mobs a bit more squishy on the next update (then a lot more squishy on the update after that, and so forth), and totally negate the hard work of the one alt with just two weapons?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

LIs need a catch up mechanism, because if someone falls behind (or if someone wants to make a third, fourth, or fifth LI for their character), then it's a whole lot of "not fun".

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This^^^

So much this.

I don't want to get to U19/20 and have alts that can't hit flies because their weapons are too weak, or have mobs so easy that my mains that do max imbued weapons can auto-hit while I go make coffee because Turbine had to find balance between characters that have imbued maxed weapons and those that don't.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

My second point was that the ILI grind in this last update was reasonable, at least for a single player with two ILIs.

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84 Scrolls of Empowerment. That's what you're declaring "reasonable" five months after the initial release of the Imbuement system where re-maxing our LIs required a whole other boat-load of scrolls.

So, at a faster than semi-annual pace, 84 scrolls of empowerment. Per toon. Minimum.

Reasonable.

And it's reasonable because we can get them so easily? All we have to do is run DA Training instances every day for. . . 120 days (84 scrolls X 10 gold tokens = 840 / 7 gold tokens per day). . . but you can of course shave those days down a bit by doing the same warbands over and over too. I'd say do Big Battles too, but you yourself said that you should be doing those for the Star-lit Crystals, not scrolls.

Oh, yeah, let's not forget about the Star-lit Crystals.

I don't think you can even really hear yourself now.

We've got an endgame entirely centered upon (mostly) solo content where we awake in the morning with a to-do list filled with the same monotonous mini-content we did the day before. We log in and do our drudgery so that we can get our LIs maxed out in order to then go and do essentially nothing with them. And we finish just in time to have the goalposts moved farther down the field, but have only the very same drudgery to accomplish to get there. Try to really get that. They are just raising the denominator on us now. We get to 84/84 scrolls needed and they say: "Great, now you're at 84/172. . . now go do all that very same content again." And that's fine with you. Totally reasonable.

And no. Not MMOs are like that. And LotRO wasn't always like that. I know, I was there. And I defended the grinds when those grinds were reasonable and not a direct means of generating revenue.

Worst part: It's this way on purpose. Because for every person that despairs and quits, there's probably two who are still so hopelessly addicted to this game and/or so naive that they break out their wallets instead of realizing that the game is literally being made to annoy/discourage you into paying them to avoid it.

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Originally Posted by Arnenna

Granted, the grind is doable and comfortable for one alt needing two weapons. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact.

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At the heart of the issue regarding the grind is not whether it is "doable" or whether one is comfortable with it whether it is one char or a dozen. Rather it is whether as customers who are consuming LOTRO as online entertainment it is something that we want to do.

Turbine sees its customers as something along the line of virtual crack addicts - willing to put up with whatever inconvenience or cost in order to get our character's to the peak or their effectiveness or to the end of the story. What they miss - and it's a facet of many other MMOs that are struggling - is that they need to create the desire in us to want to do it. Indeed their philosophy is to make it so bad so that we buy to avoid it - but they miss the obvious risk to their revenues in that we'll just reject their content proposition in its entirety - so I'll not play and I'll not pay thank you.

Now, in some MMOs (and indeed other computer games in general) that "grind" has been in the form of "just do x/y/z and I can get to the next level" - a virtual page turner that people want to consume because it is compelling / fun / exciting and so on. Other MMOs at least add the grind as a character enhancement - so that there is the feeling that we are progressing and developing character power even - such as STO's specialisations, WoW's Garrisons and (the best so far I've seen) SWTOR's Legacy and new Alliance systems.

So in short, Lotro's content in U17 is no longer exciting enough and as such I can't bothered with the grind It's a thanks but no thanks because Turbine are giving me no reason, no desire, no expectation to want to go through it. So in that case when faced with doing just enough to get through the content and leaving it at that then that's what I will do.

P.S. The breaking point for me was when I went and got my third alt to 100 (from 85 where he had been parked indefinitely along with many others) and decently equipped only so that he could run the DA Training dailies so that I could generate the Scrolls I needed faster. . . for my second alt. Which I only had reason to bring to 100 so that she could help me generates scrolls for my main. It was at that point that I realized that this game wasn't for me anymore. And that I was probably only needing to do quite so much of this because the intent behind the design was for me to buy those scrolls.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If I were able to redo the entire LI system, and fully embraced imbuing, then it would make a lot of sense to have items that set the cap to specific point (unusable if cap above that point), and spread jump to scrolls throughout the area (so, like 5 in Moria, then like 40 or 50 in Gondor, with increments between the two). Make it so that each widget requires about a day or two of dailies for the area, and it lets players catch up, while still allowing the grind to be present for those that really want to perfect LIs.

It also allows players to create multiple LIs of reasonable power relative to the cap, because each additional LI would only take a week or two of grinding. This also means that if someone checks out for a couple of updates, they can get themselves caught up by the time they finish up the quest content.

By also creating this item, it means that the landscape content designers can assume a relative power level for the LIs, so they can increase difficulty of the landscape content from "killed by bad breath" to "mostly harmless", and possibly up to "flails a mean noodle".

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This issue of potential weapon imbalance (and hence, future mob difficulty development to match) has me well and truly spooked out, I'll be honest. I decided to test it out a little, and ran up an RK to cap over the last few weeks. I geared her up in some decent essence armour and full bling, then ran her daily using different weapons.

At cap doing North Rammas, carrying level 100 weapons, non imbued but maxed - comfortably fine, not anything you could call major dps though when you compare it with fully maxed imbued.

At cap, doing North Rammas, carrying level 95 fully maxed weapons (around equivalent to missing one update's worth of imbued LI grind) - yeah, it was ok, but not by any means what I call fun. Too slow, sluggish, lots of kiting around (which is fun when needed, but not during daily landscape quests that you have to do everyday).

At cap, doing North Rammas, carrying fully maxed level 85 weapons (around equivalent to missing two update's worth of imbued LI grind) - this was a struggle, like running through soup, very not fun. Took way too long.

At cap, doing South Rammas, carrying fully maxed level 85 weapons (around equivalent to missing two update's worth of imbued LI grind) - yeah, sitting duck.

I makes me wonder, when the level 100 imbued system brings weapons that are in the region of 100/172, will it be like that RK running South Rammas in level 75 weapons in a comparison.

I see this current grind causing huge imbalance in future updates between those that use the store/stay awake all day every day on vast amounts of caffeine, to those that don't.

The only question in my head is not if there is imbalance (because their will be), but what will Turbine do when a percentage of the player base can fight the new difficulty, and the rest of them can't. The probably answer to that, is they will bring difficulty down - so all can manage (rather than leave it high, where only some can). And that will be sad.

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Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes

At the heart of the issue regarding the grind is not whether it is "doable" or whether one is comfortable with it whether it is one char or a dozen. Rather it is whether as customers who are consuming LOTRO as online entertainment it is something that we want to do.

Turbine sees its customers as something along the line of virtual crack addicts - willing to put up with whatever inconvenience or cost in order to get our character's to the peak or their effectiveness or to the end of the story. What they miss - and it's a facet of many other MMOs that are struggling - is that they need to create the desire in us to want to do it. Indeed their philosophy is to make it so bad so that we buy to avoid it - but they miss the obvious risk to their revenues in that we'll just reject their content proposition in its entirety - so I'll not play and I'll not pay thank you.

Now, in some MMOs (and indeed other computer games in general) that "grind" has been in the form of "just do x/y/z and I can get to the next level" - a virtual page turner that people want to consume because it is compelling / fun / exciting and so on. Other MMOs at least add the grind as a character enhancement - so that there is the feeling that we are progressing and developing character power even - such as STO's specialisations, WoW's Garrisons and (the best so far I've seen) SWTOR's Legacy and new Alliance systems.

So in short, Lotro's content in U17 is no longer exciting enough and as such I can't bothered with the grind It's a thanks but no thanks because Turbine are giving me no reason, no desire, no expectation to want to go through it. So in that case when faced with doing just enough to get through the content and leaving it at that then that's what I will do.

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Yes, I get all that :) We need to want it. I still want it, but I'm still relatively new, and have still, lots to do in the game that is exciting and fun for me. But, I'm in all honesty, starting to flag a bit, and I find myself becoming stubborn, and looking for reasons not to play. It wasn't very long ago that a great movie couldn't distract me from the game - I'd just record it for later (much later). Now, I look at the movie guide each morning, and find myself thinking, I hope there's something good on tonight.

It just feels very sad.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

... My second point was that the ILI grind in this last update was reasonable, at least for a single player with two ILIs. I measure reasonableness by how long it takes and how much effort it requires. A couple of weeks and modest effort to get from 100/35 to 100/44 for two ILIs is a reasonable grind. ...

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So, according to you, one can fully level up two imbued legendary weapons in about 14 hours of play time.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That's where the approach to alts should have been: I'm leveling it because I want to play this class at level.

Never what you've described, as that's bad design.

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Though I think it's understood, I just want to state for the record, I originally brought my stable of 7 alts (all but RK, WRD, and now Beorning) up to level cap, polished them, and kept them in that state through Mirkwood so that I could play them in raids and other compelling endgame content. Mostly to help kinmates get their stuff. Back in the day, having a "spare" Minstrel for and additional Rift run was very useful.

Now, they're just another vehicle by which I can compound the daily to-do list of drudgery.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That's where the approach to alts should have been: I'm leveling it because I want to play this class at level.

Never what you've described, as that's bad design.

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Agreed, but that is what this grind has reduced it to. If I were inclined to do so, I could run my ten capped alts through all the DA dailies and DA instances every day, and probably get between 5 - 7 scrolls per day (depending on the rng of silver tokens of DA). That's enough to sort out one alt every 2 weeks thereabouts, so a total of 20 weeks - 6 months to do it all. (assuming I play every day all week long).

But, I'm not inclined in any way shape or form to do that, because a) it would be immensely boring. b) it would be all there is time for. And c) that's not what my alts are for, or my mains, and if they are doing that all day, then they don't have time to do what they are really for . . . . playing other parts of the game, which is the reason I want to progress them in the first place. I won't allow this grind to kill off my alts that way.

I rolled a captain because I want to experience playing a captain, taking her into group instances, and other game content. I ran warden, burg, beorning, guardian, RK et al for the same reasons.

If I wanted to alt for scrolls, I would have just created 10 minstrels or 10 hunters and made it a lot faster for myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arnenna

Granted, the grind is doable and comfortable for one alt needing two weapons. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. Presumably though, when those weapons are done, and very strong because of the work put into them, you will expect the next level update mobs to be a lot tougher right? Else, what is the point in working on stronger weapons. So, in come the much tougher mobs, and the one alt with the great weapons, fights fine. What about the alts that didn't work their weapons because the grind is too uncomfortable or unreasonable when we start talking about more than one alt with just two weapons?

Do we just struggle through the next update mobs on those alts, then eventually be too weak to hit anything by the update after that or the one after that? Or do Turbine balance it, make future update mobs a bit more squishy on the next update (then a lot more squishy on the update after that, and so forth), and totally negate the hard work of the one alt with just two weapons?

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Just curious, since I've only gotten as far as DA. Are the 100 mobs in DA (say the training exercise) noticeably easier to beat than the 100 mobs in MT? If not, there may be no need to fear that mob difficulty will get out of hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That's what the dev team lost sight of: We play alts because we want a different play experience (or fulfill a different grouping role) at level cap. We don't play alts to accelerate our grind.

That's why catch up mechanisms are so crucial to MMO design, and not having any real way to catch up is what's demoralizing us even further than the craptastic engine already is.

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Not just at level cap, though. Another thing that's put me off alts is that there is only one way to proceed thru the later content - the quest design is so on-the-rails from Rohan on that every single alt does exactly the same thing in the same order to get the trait points available.

At lower levels you have the option of choosing different zones to focus on, providing some variety to the leveling experience. (Moria is a rite of passage for everyone but it's not so rigidly structured as the later zones.)

Once we have to start running errands for the thanes, it's all same-old same-old and I can't take it anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vilan

Just curious, since I've only gotten as far as DA. Are the 100 mobs in DA (say the training exercise) noticeably easier to beat than the 100 mobs in MT? If not, there may be no need to fear that mob difficulty will get out of hand.

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They are slightly tougher, but not that much at the moment. But, in all honestly, if we think along the lines of the mobs will never get tougher, then why would we ever need better weapons? Presumably at some point, when the weapons (of some only) get a lot better, then the difficulty of mobs must go up, or else it defeats the purpose of bettering weapons doesn't it? If they don't up the difficulty, then everything will be way too easy for characters carrying those uber weapons, but if and when difficulty does go up, what happens to all the characters that didn't have enough time, money (TP) or the inclination to do this grind?

Either chars that did grind imbued weapons will find mobs way too easy, or chars that didn't grind imbued weapons will find them too difficult - they can't have a split difficulty level on mobs that please both. There will be imbalance, whether we like or or not.

If they did not intend this grind to be for one's characters (main and alts), and clearly, they didn't, hence we have players in here saying, we don't need to bother with alts as some form of defense for the grind, then they are going to have to come up with some form of progression for them to keep up with increased difficulty. If not, then God forbid, we will eventually arrive in Mordor and fight mobs on the same difficulty level as are in Morlad. That wouldn't be at all fitting for Sauron's doorstep.

Just a FIY if Turbine are reading. I need 8 more morale essences by the weekend. I know where they live, and I know what I need to do to get them. I've done the grind for more than 35 already on other alts. I also need a handful of empos, but not as much.. Tonight, I logged in, switched to the kinship tab, puffed up ready to start grinding - then just chatted all night long with kin mates. No grinding, no fighting, no mobs, no playing. Everyone is tired of it, and slowing down. Me included, and I would have bet my bottom dollar 6 months ago that you'd never hear me say that.

Think I will go to the cinema on the weekend instead, as hubby has suggested :) The group will just have to find another healer. I'm all burned out on the grind.

And now, I'm off to bed, to watch a film and drop off to sleep, at 11.30 lol, when I'd usually have at least 4 hours more game time ahead of me yet.

Have a great night all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vilan

Just curious, since I've only gotten as far as DA. Are the 100 mobs in DA (say the training exercise) noticeably easier to beat than the 100 mobs in MT? If not, there may be no need to fear that mob difficulty will get out of hand.

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No, not that I've noticed. That's not to say that the difficulty might not be jacked up when we get to Mordor, so Arnennas's concern is something to watch for.

On another note, several pages back I talked about relative efficiency in obtaining ASEs. Let's take a detailed look, starting with EBs (I will use the OP's base numbers for the calculation).


1. EBs
ASE cost = 250 SOMs
100 SOMs per battle
20 minutes per battle
300 SOMs per hour

0.4 ASE/battle
1.2 ASE/hour
(This is the best source for crystals, at 0.6 crystals/hour. Thus, for the last update, which requires 4 crystals per ILI for unlocking, it would take 13 to 14 hours of EBs to obtain those crystals.)


2. DA Training Runs
ASE cost = 10 Gold Tokens of DA, 30 Silver Tokens of DA
Each DA Training Run = 9 Gold, 10-20 Silver (typical range)
6-8 minutes per DA Training Run
To make up the additional Silver, add a Mason (EE) run:
Each Mason Run = 12-18 Silver (typical range)
10 minutes per Mason Run
Due to variability of Silver drops, let's round up on time (total 20 minutes), and assume 9 Gold, 30 Silver per combined run.

0.9 ASE per run
2.7 ASE/hour

(Note that this is one where having multiple level 100 characters is a significant advantage since that ups the possible runs per day. Depending on your luck on silver drops, you could exceed 3 ASEs per hour.)


3. DA Quartermaster
ASE cost = 100 Amroth Silver Pieces (ASP)
West Gondor warband run = 33 to 39 ASPs (let's use 35 as average)
12 to 15 minutes per warband run
140 ASP per hour

0.35 ASE per run
1.4 ASE per hour

(I often tack on a run through TC at the end of this run, thus adding 20-25 additional ASPs. This takes another 15 to 20 minutes, and lowers the efficiency a little, but boosts me to 0.55 ASE per run.)


4. Osg Dailies
ASE Cost = 100 East Gondor Silver Pieces (EGSP)
East Gondor Osg run = 32 EGSPs (starting from Faramir's Lookout to pick up the Siege destruction daily along the way)
22 to 25 minutes per Osg run (let's round up to 30 minutes)
64 EGSP per hour

0.32 ASE per run
0.64 ASE per hour (the way the Osg dailies are laid out require taking more time, thus making this the least efficient method to obtain ASEs)


5. South Rammas Dailies
ASE Cost = 30 Smiths Tokens (ST)
South Rammas run = 12 ST
9 to 12 minutes per run (this can vary depending on how many people are with you in the public instance; let's round up to 15 minutes)
48 ST per hour

0.4 ASE per run
1.6 ASE per hour


****

From the above, the DA Training Run is by far the most efficient, and everything else except for the Osg dailies are more efficient than EBs. EBs, however, have the advantage of not being limited to a single run per day. This is why my current daily routine includes:

1. DA training instance + Mason (or other DA daily) = 0.9 ASE

2. DA warband run = 0.35 ASE

3. South Rammas run = 0.4 ASE

That's the core, and nets 1.65 ASE per day as my base in under an hour. Best of all, as I am a time-limited player, I don't have to do these all continuously, and can do them in small, bite-sized chunks. In fact, I often can do some or all of these before I get in the game "for real."

Depending on what's going on with the kin, and the amount of time I have, several things can be stacked on top of this core routine:

4. EBs. I try to run at least a couple EBs per day. Adds 0.8 ASE, although I prefer to save SoMs for crystals. This is the tool for boosting ASE production per day, if you're trying to obtain ASEs quickly. Do two hours of EBs, and you've earned 2.4 ASE.

5. Tarlang's Crown. Adds 0.2 to 0.25 ASE. If I happen to see someone in WC starting a TC run, I get the 4 TC (Bank) dailies instead of the Mason, and then pick up the other 2 elsewhere.

6. Osg Dailies. Adds 0.32 ASE. Because of the time it takes, I only do this as a break in the routine.

There are other boosts to your overall efficiency here to not forget about. I earn decent marks and meds from the EBs (and warband boxes), so you can count on additional ASEs from the Skirmish vendor over the course of time. Also, you can sell those bank, mason, etc. tokens, and use the proceeds to buy silver tokens, or even ASEs directly. How many varies with market conditions on your server.

So, assuming worst case scenario where you start with none of the above resources in the bank, and have no level 100 alts to run their own core routines, it should take no more than 20 to 30 days after the last update for a player to max out their two ILIs from tier cap 35 to tier cap 44. This assumes an average of about 3 hours a day of playing time.

Most of us do actually have a decent amount of these resources stored up, fortunately, so this grind will be lessened.