Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Burglar Developer Diary

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape. Because the Burglar had fairly recently had a ‘Month of’ update we decided to keep the changes focused around polishing some of the rough edges. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Tim 'Raskolnikov' Lang and post your comments here!

I'm not a fan of giving dual-wielding and medium armor to Burglars from the get-go.

I think the game is a lot more fun when you progress from lower abilities to higher abilities. You feel like you're actually "learning" or gaining knowledge. Giving players all of their passive abilities from the get-go seems to undermine this. I was able to level my burg without any difficult, I don't see this change doing anything other than taking away some of the sense of accomplishment.

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Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.

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Seriously? Why? What's behind that change? To run around in the moors and bug people? Doesn't the burg has enough annoying skills?

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Burglars can now use “Riddle” and “Confound” on any creature type (ie; any genus).
Level 74: Improved Startling Twist – Now affects up to three targets that are affected by Tricks.

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Does any of you guys care about pvp in that game?

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Originally Posted by Cirdan

I'm not a fan of giving dual-wielding and medium armor to Burglars from the get-go.

I think the game is a lot more fun when you progress from lower abilities to higher abilities. You feel like you're actually "learning" or gaining knowledge. Giving players all of their passive abilities from the get-go seems to undermine this. I was able to level my burg without any difficult, I don't see this change doing anything other than taking away some of the sense of accomplishment.

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It's only level 10, I don't really see what the big deal is. It's not a sense of accomplishment if you hit level 10 and learn dual wield and medium armor, its just something they should start with anyways. I know people who hated leveling the burglar until they got dual wield at level 10, just makes things more fun, and makes more people inclined to play a burglar since the first 10 levels are better.

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Originally Posted by SnakeShaker

Seriously? Why? What's behind that change? To run around in the moors and bug people? Doesn't the burg has enough annoying skills?



Does any of you guys care about pvp in that game?

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If those changes only bother you because of PvP, shouldn't you play a game that is more PvP focused? This game is not, and will not ever be, PvP focused. There are PLENTY of games for that.

If it still bothers you, tell the creeps to play smarter, if a Burglar is being attacked by 3 creeps, and he throws a trick on all of them, and they all get hit with startling twist, that's their fault.

The riddle change is fantastic for PvE. Why should we PvEr's not gain a fantastic skill upgrade because of how it affects PvP in a PvE focused game?

It's all buffs so not much to complain about if you play a QK Burg. They will be even more dangerous in the Moors and largely self-sufficient everywhere else. I can use Subtle Stab a lot during a Glee cooldown. Makes that Glee swap bag even more useful.

If you wanted to become a MM Burg- probably still not enough for you. My only disappointment is that I mistakenly thought all of the captsones in the crit response chain were going to be delinked from the chain. Looks like it is only for traited one. Not a big deal either way really.

"Riddle" and "Confound" working on all creatures really makes sense.

NOT.

Since when could one tell a riddle to an irrational creature?

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

If those changes only bother you because of PvP, shouldn't you play a game that is more PvP focused? This game is not, and will not ever be, PvP focused. There are PLENTY of games for that.

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So you say the Improved Riddle is a pve skill? In which specific situation at pve would it be useful to give a npc a daze and stay unseen? Tell me just one.

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

If it still bothers you, tell the creeps to play smarter, if a Burglar is being attacked by 3 creeps, and he throws a trick on all of them, and they all get hit with startling twist, that's their fault.

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Oh, it's their own fault. Don't be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

The riddle change is fantastic for PvE. Why should we PvEr's not gain a fantastic skill upgrade because of how it affects PvP in a PvE focused game?

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Disable it at pvp. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by RedMeister

"Riddle" and "Confound" working on all creatures really makes sense.

NOT.

Since when could one tell a riddle to an irrational creature?

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Wargs and other creatures (like the Eagles for instance) can talk.. So it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

It's only level 10, I don't really see what the big deal is. It's not a sense of accomplishment if you hit level 10 and learn dual wield and medium armor, its just something they should start with anyways. I know people who hated leveling the burglar until they got dual wield at level 10, just makes things more fun, and makes more people inclined to play a burglar since the first 10 levels are better.

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It's not an "amazing" accomplishment, but it helps to make the player feel like they've "earned" something and creates a sense of "learning" about being a Burglar. The idea being that they had to master one weapon before they could adequately wield two. Classes are easy enough to level right now. Players can get level 10 soon enough with or without dual-wield.

This change obviously won't make or break anything. I was just putting in my two cents on why I think the game would be more immersing and enjoyable for new burgs if they didn't make this change.

AHhh...creep tears...nom nom nom.. ahh yes, they taste so good.. nom nom.

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Originally Posted by SnakeShaker

So you say the Improved Riddle is a pve skill? In which specific situation at pve would it be useful to give a npc a daze and stay unseen? Tell me just one.



Oh, it's their own fault. Don't be ridiculous.



Disable it at pvp. Problem solved.

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Just one? Okay. How about when you're soloing and you go to pull multiple mobs. There's 2-3 mobs standing together. Sneak up, riddle one, surprise attack the other. Bam. One mob is dazed and you got a nice big crit to start on the other mob.

The fact that you couldn't come up with that idea makes me wonder if you've even leveled a burglar.

Yes, letting a burglar stun all 3 of you IS your fault. Whose else would it be? Why do PvPers always immediately jump onto blaming the skill design but never blaming themselves for getting beat?

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Originally Posted by Cirdan

It's not an "amazing" accomplishment, but it helps to make the player feel like they've "earned" something and creates a sense of "learning" about being a Burglar. The idea being that they had to master one weapon before they could adequately wield two. Classes are easy enough to level right now. Players can get level 10 soon enough with or without dual-wield.

This change obviously won't make or break anything. I was just putting in my two cents on why I think the game would be more immersing and enjoyable for new burgs if they didn't make this change.

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I understand what you mean, but where you think it would be more enjoyable and immersing for burgs to make you learn it at level 10, there's probably an equal amount of burgs or new players who feel that it'd be more enjoyable or immersing to start off with the abilities.

Just my two cents :D

With the change of Agility being the main source of dmg, Might should be now an useless stat for Burglars, unless they want to pump up Parry. So i guess we will be able to see strong numbers of Agility/Vitality burglars. Despite not many changes (for PvE, that is, for PvP some are amazing and make Burglars even more the best class in there), this alone should indirectly help Burglars alot.

•Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.

Wow, I think this is crazy! Basically you can pull one mob out of a group since you'll still be stealthed and the others won't be able to aggro anything. This will change the way a lot of groups do pulls in instances and raids I bet. It'll be very interesting to see if/how this works.

The riddle and capstone changes are great and brings some nice class versatility. The polish on MM is nice, I'd like to have seen a bit more but I'll take it. The new subtle stab will give me more chances to rage about not getting the power return. Improved sneak not working with FA seems like a skill you should get in the lvl 30ish area imo as it would see a lot of use for solo questing/leveling.

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

If a Burglar is being attacked by 3 creeps, and he throws a trick on all of them, and they all get hit with startling twist, that's their fault.

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Because AOE dust in the eye+startling twist will be so easy to avoid?

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Originally Posted by SnakeShaker

So you say the Improved Riddle is a pve skill? In which specific situation at pve would it be useful to give a npc a daze and stay unseen? Tell me just one.

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Seriously? OK. So now SS and CA auto-crit from stealth. This is huge. So I'm coming up on a camp of 3 mobs, all with linked aggro. Riddle one from stealth, auto-crit SS on #2, kill #2 with my crit chain, start killing up the other til SS is off CD, then IFA -> SS crit. Probably get in two kills before the riddle ends, with no problems, thanks to the stealth auto-crit.

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

With the change of Agility being the main source of dmg, Might should be now an useless stat for Burglars, unless they want to pump up Parry. So i guess we will be able to see strong numbers of Agility/Vitality burglars. Despite not many changes (for PvE, that is, for PvP some are amazing and make Burglars even more the best class in there), this alone should indirectly help Burglars alot.

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I don't know what Might/Agility you're talking about, Agility boosts parry, Might does not.


Also, amazing changes.

might does contribute to parry, to the above, but not as much as agility, either that or it is shared between the two equally.

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Originally Posted by Fasin

I don't know what Might/Agility you're talking about, Agility boosts parry, Might does not.

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Nope. Might and Agility both increase Parry. Parry Rating = Might + Agility

Evade Rating = 2 * Agility
Block Rating = 2 * Might

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Originally Posted by Tron79

Because AOE dust in the eye+startling twist will be so easy to avoid?

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Isn't startling twist as easy to avoid as just taking a step back? It's what, a 3m range? Dust in the eyes is pretty easy to see coming. Heck, you should PREPARE for this exact situation. If all 3 creeps are standing right on a burglar now, yeah its their fault. The burglar has how many ranged skills?

How can one riddle an animal.
How can one pose a riddle to someone when invisible.
OK so sense is no longer an element of this game.... i see....

P.S. Even WoW's rogue makes more sense than the burglar nowadays!!!

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

Isn't startling twist as easy to avoid as just taking a step back? It's what, a 3m range? Dust in the eyes is pretty easy to see coming. Heck, you should PREPARE for this exact situation. If all 3 creeps are standing right on a burglar now, yeah its their fault. The burglar has how many ranged skills?

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take a step back where? into another stealthed burg who riddles you and stays in stealth. don't need any range if you can escape any and all fights whenever you feel like things wont go your way.

good thing burgs are getting some more love, times have been really rough on those guys in the moors lately

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

Isn't startling twist as easy to avoid as just taking a step back? It's what, a 3m range? Dust in the eyes is pretty easy to see coming. Heck, you should PREPARE for this exact situation. If all 3 creeps are standing right on a burglar now, yeah its their fault. The burglar has how many ranged skills?

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Easy enough if you see the burg... they have a funny way of sneaking up on you though, not to mention dust in the eyes slows you as well. Just makes there ability to pop into group kill and HIPS before being killed that much easier.

And any improvements to the burg are going to cause groans from creeps players seeing as they are already viewed as OP/easymode.

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Originally Posted by opurt

•Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.

Wow, I think this is crazy! Basically you can pull one mob out of a group since you'll still be stealthed and the others won't be able to aggro anything. This will change the way a lot of groups do pulls in instances and raids I bet. It'll be very interesting to see if/how this works.

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Yeah, that's my concern. How will it work? Will it work? I'm imagining Riddling one mob, his neighbor is linked and charges me anyway, and then it's a race to see if I can whip out Surprise Strike to crit on him before he hits me. Given all the issues there have been with HiPS in PVE, I have my doubts about this functioning correctly. But it'll be good if it works right.

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Burglars can now enter “Mischief”, “Gambler”, or “Quiet Knife” in combat for a short period after being resurrected by a player.

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Appreciated, but I still think it would be better if we could change stances after a successful FM is executed. It's not just about getting into a stance after a rez, it's also about wanting to change stances in a fight, and while I appreciate you don't want us stance-dancing willy-nilly, giving us a cost/benefit mechanism to do so would be a real improvement.

As I said when these were originally proposed, these are mostly beneficial changes, but I'm not convinced they're the *right* changes. The two things I really want: change stances on successful FM and Improved Diversion (similar to Minstrel's Distraction).

The two downsides:

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Level 70: Improved Sneak – Surprise Strike and Cunning Attack will be Critical Hits when used from Sneak.
* Note: Feint and Improved Feint are not affected by this. (Testing revealed it to be too powerful.)

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The Feint thing is disappointing, but at least I appreciate the admission that it was felt to be too powerful. At least now I can save Aim for when Feint is up, instead of burning it on my stealth-opening.

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Counter Defence: Reduced the Block, Parry, Evade Rating debuff to be more consistent with other skills, monster ratings, and to work properly with Finesse.

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I appreciate the need for balancing, but Counter Defense originally disabled a mob's BPE entirely. It was converted to a rating debuff that was said to essentially eliminate BPE most of the time. I'm concerned that it's not going to do that any more, and that the main reason seems to be a conflict with Finesse. Surely there's a way to make Finesse check after CD, so that CD doesn't have to be nerfed on mobs that don't even have Finesse.

So, yeah, mixed feelings all around.

If you can't tell a riddle to an animal.. tell me the last time you were at the office and leaned over to a half-orc and told them a riddle and it blew their mind so bad they couldn't answer the phone? You people do realize this is a fantasy game based on fantasy lore right?

That being said.. I gotta go check to make sure the neighbors wargs aren't pooping on my lawn...hopefully my invisibility is good enough they won't see me.

Well, these updates look nice for Burglars, very nice in fact.

However, I do have concerns on how this will affect PvMP. Wave this away as 'Creep QQ' if you like, but Burglars are already an immensely powerful class in the Moors, this update is going to make them even more so, at least if these changes aren't modified for balance.

I mean really, another AOE stun? Do you know how many AOE stuns creeps have? None. Guaranteed crits from stealth? Can Wargs autocrit? No. And now they can Riddle Weavers and Wargs too, AND do it from stealth.

Seriously, the only people who could not see this as a bad move are Moors Burgs themselves.

Ending my rant now, but my point is these changes are not good if they aren't changed for PvMP. Otherwise, they look great.

Thread is derailing into PvMP discussion, as it always happens whenever there is a burglar update. While the real issue is that they have ignored The Gambler and Mischief-maker (except the RW cooldown, thanks for that finally) yet again. I still see no reason to trait deep into either of those traitlines unless I want to cripple myself.

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Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

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You know what, that is simply ridiculous. A lot of valid points were raised regarding how Mischief-maker was redundant and The Gambler was broken, but clearly none of them caught anybodies attention. Yes, this post is not constructive at all. I'm done posting constructive stuff when it's always falling on deaf ears. Yes, I'm frustrated. Frustrated that every other class gets the necessary (or unnecessary) attention except for the burglars. Revamp the hunters, revamp the champions. Revamp the minstrels and the captains. Polish the burglar on the rough edges. We have indeed gotten edgy over being ignored for so long.

End of rant. Looks like I'll be going 4R3Y until the servers are shut down.

I really like those changes. Capstones out of the critical chain gives us so much more flexibility. 100% crit for surprise strike AND cunning attack is awesome. I'm glad u changed this so it also affects cunning attack. Im not disappointed by the fact that feint is no longer giving 100% crit chance for ss/ca as suggested before, this would have been just too powerful. Riddle changes are awesome, and the part i liked most!

Ah and btw: Spiders and Wargs say Hi! to Mr. Stunlock, can't wait to burst the hell out of you :>

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

With the change of Agility being the main source of dmg, Might should be now an useless stat for Burglars, unless they want to pump up Parry. So i guess we will be able to see strong numbers of Agility/Vitality burglars. Despite not many changes (for PvE, that is, for PvP some are amazing and make Burglars even more the best class in there), this alone should indirectly help Burglars alot.

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Actually I see a lot of PVE changes. The startling twist change makes burgs semi-useful in AoE situations without stepping on Champs and LMs toes. The riddle change will make pulls a lot smoother, If they can work out the mechanics. Given my experiences with skirmishes it's a big wait and see.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

Seriously? OK. So now SS and CA auto-crit from stealth. This is huge. So I'm coming up on a camp of 3 mobs, all with linked aggro. Riddle one from stealth, auto-crit SS on #2, kill #2 with my crit chain, start killing up the other til SS is off CD, then IFA -> SS crit. Probably get in two kills before the riddle ends, with no problems, thanks to the stealth auto-crit.

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Reread the notes, and it's not like a frontal SS crit does insane damage even from stealth. Finally, it's fairly easy to do now.

Overall some interesting changes, and for the new burgs they can throw their egg timers in the garbage leafwalkers for all.

Burgs just got 100% more OP in the moors.

I see people complain all the time that this game is PvE based but last I checked, skills and items could be set to work differently when you go to the moors.
I PvMP more than I PvE but I agree that the devs should focus on both sides. They created this game and included PvMP so why should they not support it.
If you don't want to support it; remove it and all everyone's complaints are gone.

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Originally Posted by Braffo

Actually I see a lot of PVE changes. The startling twist change makes burgs semi-useful in AoE situations without stepping on Champs and LMs toes. The riddle change will make pulls a lot smoother, If they can work out the mechanics. Given my experiences with skirmishes it's a big wait and see.

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My bad, when i talked about PvE changes, (and specially comparing with Captain changes) there aren´t so many, nor so significatives. But of course, there are some interesting ones.

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Originally Posted by Celestrata

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

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I lost all hope with the very first sentence.

Oi, a few more updates and burgs will be able to do an entire fight from stealth.

I like the changes. Mostly excited for the stat changes, offence rating will boost significantly with Agilityx10 vs Mightx7. Having Gambler's Strike at the ready will be very handy for placing an almost instant 1min glee mez on things. I'm assuming the targets for aoe twist will also be subject to damaging gambles as well? Improved CD affecting all incoming damage, very nice. And I'm glad to be able to save my Aim for something else besides a stealth opener. Very nice job Rask.

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Originally Posted by Armisayl191

If those changes only bother you because of PvP, shouldn't you play a game that is more PvP focused? This game is not, and will not ever be, PvP focused. There are PLENTY of games for that.

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SO because you do not PvP suddenly others should leave because this game has a bigger PvE crowd than PvP? The point of any class change is to make everyone happy. Obviously Turbine feels there is a need for PvP in the game even if MP is weak, ill conceived, and ill updated. Burgs are already one of the most OP classes in the moors. Whether or not you feel we should keep our opinions to ourselves because this game isn't as PvP focused as others is WHACK for lack of a better word.

I am beginning to think as some others that this expansion will break this game for many. I have been a fan for a long time and even spoke up for radiance (not that I liked it, but I learned to live with it), but I am not liking what I see. With so many other options coming out I can see some of these ill-conceived class changes driving people away.

<The changes look neat in Pvp, but maybe (who knows) they will be altered for Pvp, or something we dont know yet about pvp will make them less powerful.

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Originally Posted by abrahamL

SO because you do not PvP suddenly others should leave because this game has a bigger PvE crowd than PvP? The point of any class change is to make everyone happy. Obviously Turbine feels there is a need for PvP in the game even if MP is weak, ill conceived, and ill updated. Burgs are already one of the most OP classes in the moors. Whether or not you feel we should keep our opinions to ourselves because this game isn't as PvP focused as others is WHACK for lack of a better word.

I am beginning to think as some others that this expansion will break this game for many. I have been a fan for a long time and even spoke up for radiance (not that I liked it, but I learned to live with it), but I am not liking what I see. With so many other options coming out I can see some of these ill-conceived class changes driving people away.

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I never once said that I don't PvMP. What I don't do is complain about PvMP balance. I just don't care. It's a PvE focused game. You cannot make a PvE and PvP game and balance around both. It doesn't work. It never will work, it never has worked. That's why MMOs have a focus, PvE or PvP. The other one is ALWAYS put on the back-burner, that's how it's always been. Play a PvP focused/centric game if you want to PvP is what I'm saying.

I enjoy PvMP, but I don't expect it to be balanced without butchering the PvE side of the game, which is where they put the most focus and content towards. Why ruin the majority of the game because the minority are upset about PvMP changes? Learn to adapt and enjoy PvMP regardless of how they make mess you over with class changes, just remember that you cannot please both. So when skill changes are made based on PvMP and they directly alter how they work in PvE, the PvErs aren't happy. In a PvE focused game, the burglar SHOULDNT receive these nice buffs because of how they may affect PvMP? The lesser side of the game?

Just some feedback, it could be too late, but you could never know. It's about making a useless skill usefull.

- Make safe fall usable on horses.

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Originally Posted by DobbelB_EU

Just some feedback, it could be too late, but you could never know. It's about making a useless skill usefull.

- Make safe fall usable on horses.

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Meh..
Disable it in PvP atleast- it is OP.
But useable on a horse even just in pve doesn't make sense..

Changes look good all and all. Gambler could still use some love on Damaging gambles' DPS and the MM capstone could be buffed a few percent to justify the Burgs lost DPS by traiting MM but other than that awesome.

To all the creeps whining about Riddle from Stealth and AoE Startling Twist etc. Anti-stun pots and diminishing returns are there for a reason.

Mischief Maker and even moreso Gambler are in dire need of some substantial streamlining. Here's hope ( however faint ) these necessary changes were just not the topic of this diary and therefore left out.

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Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

Thread is derailing into PvMP discussion, as it always happens whenever there is a burglar update.

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It's not a derail, especially considering the significant upcoming Turbine Store change to the Moors.

These upcoming changes in particular:


Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.
Level 68: Improved Counter Defence – Now also increases the Incoming Ranged Critical Chance and Incoming Tactical Critical Chance.
Level 70: Improved Sneak – Surprise Strike and Cunning Attack will be Critical Hits when used from Sneak.
Level 74: Improved Startling Twist – Now affects up to three targets that are affected by Tricks.

...Spell an OP disaster in PvMP. It's going to be rough for Creep players out there, especially all those new F2P Reavers...

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Originally Posted by opurt

Oi, a few more updates and burgs will be able to do an entire fight from stealth.

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LOL! +Rep

Extremely happy with the changes. TG could use either a revamp or a buff, but it's already attracted it's die-hards that will play it regardless, so it's more or less fine for now. A good update.

Changes are great and all, I'm just wondering if you guys remember that there is PvP in this game. That would be cool if you thought about it, maybe just once in a while huh?

more crying creeps :))

but i am little bit disappointed, that there are no changes for broken gambler line..

and so another generic rogue Archetype in another clone mmo.


Anyway, no love for Gambler, you know the thing that makes your Burglar stand out from the crowd?
I at least would have expected a change so our Debuff Gamble could be invoked more or on multiple enemies at once?
After all that's what makes a Gambler stand out, aside from the various (unpractical) mezzes. How about 10% evade boost?

Or how about getting the line clean with whenever a gambler should have a stealth appraoch or not? Leaf walker as a BLUE Trait is just so wrong. Especially the guaranteed 90% maxed disable gamble probability. Two things define the gambler, the not so surety of Gambles and the strenght of the gambles. Most of the time we play our own minigame with applying (or failing) and upgrading the tier of the Gamble. This all must be done outside of STEALTH and the whole game idea doesn't fit the silent assassin stuff at all. Yet we get two stealth traits in our blue line, while the only one's really benefiting from it are not the Gambler players itself.

The best way to prove this miss concept is a DEBUFF gamble, now how many way's are there to start one (even just a chance too!). One is traited on a 1:30 minute cooldown which requires a trick. The other one is from stealth traited. The whole idea about the gambler is to get various effect with not a certain probability. I can't put a debuff gambit on the boss just like that, that's why it is one of the strongest debuffs. Yet i can't really apply it at all since i got only two chances with TWO traits equipped with two awkward ways of initialising it. Either i need to switch to the MM stance the whole fight for having every 2 Minutes one chance to apply it and ruin my whole gambler approach with the wrong stance or use the trait. The other way to initialise the propability of a debuff gamble would be to burgle from stealth, blowing off my HIPS cooldown.

Currently once the fight rages, we are left with an half decent DOT while we sacrificed SO much DPS for going 5Blue and pretend to be useful as DPS. And then there are so many way to put up DISABLING gambits on Bosses which are immun, and neither could we do it on certain adds, because it either takes to long or isn't reliable enough and the raids are not forgiving enough. Disabling gamble is only available through clever retort or using HIPS.

So why bring a blue Burglar along in a raid? QK does damage, MM does reliable CC. We are left with an unreliable mez and most of the time ineffective (immun) a medicore dot and and practically not applyable debuff (from stealth with burgle? seriously?).


Remove the whole "from stealth" part from gambler's traits, make our debuff gambles work with the GAMBLER stance active / other skills.
Just saying everything is "fine" with a burglar just fit's when you want a generic dps rogue 5QK +2X. Everything else is utterly broken.


And what about the "Evasion" offtank of a gambler? Did you consider the change of your game mechanics and how they affect evasion? That 5% get's to be a joke once ROI starts. (Monster (NPC) Finesse, removal of passive evasion skills, 1700 something evasion rate)?

You know if i could apply my debuff gamble (and tier it up - prolong it) properly, then people maybe would say, hey whoa we want a blue burglar, you know he can reduce the damage and attackspeed significantly of a Raidboss.

Disappointing. At least they didn't directly nerf Gambler.

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Originally Posted by Overtone

It's not a derail, especially considering the significant upcoming Turbine Store change to the Moors.

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I know how this is going to impact PvMP. That isn't my point. When it comes to burglars, people are so focused on PvMP they forget about the PvE aspect of the class and the current problems with it.

Burglars are OP in the Moors (again). Who cares if Mischief-maker and The Gambler got ignored again? Doesn't matter if 2 of our traitlines are redundant, at least the other one of them is working properly, right?

Another reason not to buy RoI.

Im with Yalras on this. Im done. Its over. It is just ridiculous how you can ignore 2 of our traitlines for so long, and still call it a class in good shape.

I dont care for PvP, and for PvE these updates are just meh at best, and definitely not what we need.

Quote:

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Mischief Maker: There is an additional 4-set bonus which reduces the Cooldown of all Tricks by 5 seconds.

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This has potential, if only we had an 8th class trait slot. :(

We obviously received very little dev time, which makes me sad.

Number of new skills added: 0
Number of old skills removed: 1

... so at least we gain a quickslot back!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

This has potential, if only we had an 8th class trait slot. :(

We obviously received very little dev time, which makes me sad.

Number of new skills added: 0
Number of old skills removed: 1

... so at least we gain a quickslot back!

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Lol.

Yea the 0s cd on RW & tricks is something I asked for several times, so I'm pretty happy they added that. At 4 deep in MM though I can't imagine I'll trait that way very often. But at least the option is there.

I guess when MM does finally get a proper revamp one day, it'll be that much more awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

This has potential, if only we had an 8th class trait slot. :(

We obviously received very little dev time, which makes me sad.

Number of new skills added: 0
Number of old skills removed: 1

... so at least we gain a quickslot back!

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Geez, enough of the negativity already. Sure, I saw through the line about burgs being in a good place already too. Translates to "there is only 5 weeks or so left till release, and we didn't get time for real burg revamping in. Spent it all on more popular classes". They are a business after all, and we are a hard class to buff without making us unbalanced, so not a problem. I would have loved to see a little more TLC spent on MM and TG lines too, but at least MM got something. I was convinced it would remain untouched, lol. The two MM line changes are powerful ones, nonetheless. The 4-trait one is a serious buff for debuffing, but only two other people in 4 pages noticed it.

From a gaming site/magazine interview (sorry I don't have the link handy) they announced that we were getting an 8th class slot. I'd love a dev to confirm it via the forums though.

And lets not skew things by leaving out info we don't want to acknowledge shall we?
Number of new skills added: 0
Number of old skills removed: 1
Number of old skills improved: 7 (and real gameplay improvements here, not just tooltip/animation changes)
Number of old skills nerfed: 1

All in all a pretty solid update for PvE burgs. Great updates for newbie burgs too, I always thought it was dumb to make a dual-wield and medium armor class start with only one weapon and light armor. Made no sense, so that's a great change. Could have been better as far as spreading the love across all the traitlines instead of just QK and a little touch on MM, but we got a lot of buffs and some powerful ones at that.

For PvMP, I don't know what to say. Several of these changes are gonna be serious buffs in the moors for a class that didn't need moors buffs. Though I have to agree with the poster who said earlier that in a Burg vs 3 that it is the creeps own fault if all 3 get caught in a S-Twist stun. Both DITE and S-Twist are frontal-arc melee aoe skills. Spread out a bit and/or attack from diff sides, and it can't happen. Staying stacked up in one spot is just asking for trouble against any class that has aoe, not just burgs.

That aside though, burgs will be embarrassingly powerful in RoI in the moors.

I imagine this big pvmp update they have mentioned taking place soon after the expansion is going to in part be a revamp of powers, in terms of having powers have different effects in the moors vs. pve. If I was a creep, I would not be worried about these burglar additions. (they are not in stone now either anyway)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grimbran

While DITE's range can be buffed a little via a LI legacy, S-Twist cant and is short ranged. Spread out a bit and/or attack from diff sides, and it can't happen. Staying stacked up in one spot is just asking for trouble against any class that has aoe, not just burgs.

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Startling twist as well as all other trick removals have the same range as tricks. (Both effected by +trick range.)

Great changes, the Auto Crit from Stealth is awesome, I agree that with Feint it would been to OP, its good the way it is now. 3 target Startling twist will be nice with AOE dust, first time Ill actyally think seriosly about traiting AOE dust.. good change again.

The subtle stab reduces cooldown on heal/power heal is nice, i still think you could up the % of the power return to say 30% (even with a LI legacy) on the heal but Ill take this happily. Riddle able to use on all type of mobs welcomed, although you have to rename "Riddle" to something else then Also the from stealth Riddle is nice, it will open a new way to test some harder multimob pulls while soloing.

Leg. Trait aka Capstone not being in the crit chain is also welcomed, never really liked them being in the critchain tbh, GJ. Improved CD is good change for grouping, pushing our debuffing abit more is always nice.

Overall Im happy about the changes :)

But just one question... you gonna fix Gambler trait line or not? I dont mean redesigning it.. just fixing it. HINT: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...42#post5406642

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeShaker

Seriously? Why? What's behind that change? To run around in the moors and bug people? Doesn't the burg has enough annoying skills?



Does any of you guys care about pvp in that game?

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PvP centered games are that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Yea the 0s cd on RW & tricks is something I asked for several times, so I'm pretty happy they added that. At 4 deep in MM though I can't imagine I'll trait that way very often.

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Actually, the 0s cd on Fast skills immediately made me think of you. ;) Gonna be fun to play around with!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grimbran

Geez, enough of the negativity already.

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Sorry. I am looking forward to RoI, and will enjoy playing my Burg with or without these changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grimbran

From a gaming site/magazine interview (sorry I don't have the link handy) they announced that we were getting an 8th class slot. I'd love a dev to confirm it via the forums though.

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That would be very good news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grimbran

And lets not skew things by leaving out info we don't want to acknowledge shall we?

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LOL. My point was that they are really just fiddling with existing skills.



My view derives from asking myself (a PvE, grouping, QKer):

How Will RoI Affect My Choices/Decisions?

• Build - trade Might for Agility
• Virtues - same
• Traits - same (5 QK + 2 MM, 99% of the time)
• Legendary Traits - same (crit chain enders + QK Cap)
• Debuffs - same, except mezzing beasts etc (I like!!!!)
• Rotation - iFA earlier, for Aim+FB+CA; already spam ss, so more Glee

New capabilities:

• Stealth open for auto-crit - not worth the extra time to move to the mob
• Stealth mez - wouldn't risk pulling, and would use Mischief if chain-mezzing
• AoE Stun - not worth traiting AoE Dust or applying 3 tricks for 8 sec stun on trash

I'll test the new stuff out on the way to 75, and hope that I find more use because I actually like change.

With the 100% crit from stealth, whats with trait with +5% crit chance from stealth? Will be a little useless. Do we will get something instead?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cliford

With the 100% crit from stealth, whats with trait with +5% crit chance from stealth? Will be a little useless. Do we will get something instead?

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useful for any other skills from out of stealth, and let's not forget improved feint attack.

I'm very happy about these changes, especially the subtle stab change to reduce mischievous glee cooldown on successful hits.

Burgs are become more and more cc though.. mischief maker can lock down 3 targets.. gambler 4 with some sense and luck.

would love to see another trick added with a nice effect, but hey, can't wish m all :)

Burg pwnage with whipped cream on top...

nom nom nom nom. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socom33

Changes look good all and all. Gambler could still use some love on Damaging gambles' DPS and the MM capstone could be buffed a few percent to justify the Burgs lost DPS by traiting MM but other than that awesome.

To all the creeps whining about Riddle from Stealth and AoE Startling Twist etc. Anti-stun pots and diminishing returns are there for a reason.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vilda

more crying creeps :))

but i am little bit disappointed, that there are no changes for broken gambler line..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SungXe

and so another generic rogue Archetype in another clone mmo.


Anyway, no love for Gambler, you know the thing that makes your Burglar stand out from the crowd?
I at least would have expected a change so our Debuff Gamble could be invoked more or on multiple enemies at once?
After all that's what makes a Gambler stand out, aside from the various (unpractical) mezzes. How about 10% evade boost?

Or how about getting the line clean with whenever a gambler should have a stealth appraoch or not? Leaf walker as a BLUE Trait is just so wrong. Especially the guaranteed 90% maxed disable gamble probability. Two things define the gambler, the not so surety of Gambles and the strenght of the gambles. Most of the time we play our own minigame with applying (or failing) and upgrading the tier of the Gamble. This all must be done outside of STEALTH and the whole game idea doesn't fit the silent assassin stuff at all. Yet we get two stealth traits in our blue line, while the only one's really benefiting from it are not the Gambler players itself.

The best way to prove this miss concept is a DEBUFF gamble, now how many way's are there to start one (even just a chance too!). One is traited on a 1:30 minute cooldown which requires a trick. The other one is from stealth traited. The whole idea about the gambler is to get various effect with not a certain probability. I can't put a debuff gambit on the boss just like that, that's why it is one of the strongest debuffs. Yet i can't really apply it at all since i got only two chances with TWO traits equipped with two awkward ways of initialising it. Either i need to switch to the MM stance the whole fight for having every 2 Minutes one chance to apply it and ruin my whole gambler approach with the wrong stance or use the trait. The other way to initialise the propability of a debuff gamble would be to burgle from stealth, blowing off my HIPS cooldown.

Currently once the fight rages, we are left with an half decent DOT while we sacrificed SO much DPS for going 5Blue and pretend to be useful as DPS. And then there are so many way to put up DISABLING gambits on Bosses which are immun, and neither could we do it on certain adds, because it either takes to long or isn't reliable enough and the raids are not forgiving enough. Disabling gamble is only available through clever retort or using HIPS.

So why bring a blue Burglar along in a raid? QK does damage, MM does reliable CC. We are left with an unreliable mez and most of the time ineffective (immun) a medicore dot and and practically not applyable debuff (from stealth with burgle? seriously?).


Remove the whole "from stealth" part from gambler's traits, make our debuff gambles work with the GAMBLER stance active / other skills.
Just saying everything is "fine" with a burglar just fit's when you want a generic dps rogue 5QK +2X. Everything else is utterly broken.


And what about the "Evasion" offtank of a gambler? Did you consider the change of your game mechanics and how they affect evasion? That 5% get's to be a joke once ROI starts. (Monster (NPC) Finesse, removal of passive evasion skills, 1700 something evasion rate)?

You know if i could apply my debuff gamble (and tier it up - prolong it) properly, then people maybe would say, hey whoa we want a blue burglar, you know he can reduce the damage and attackspeed significantly of a Raidboss.

Disappointing. At least they didn't directly nerf Gambler.

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I find gambler's really good as it is. The Glee mezz has saved my neck so many times, and freeing Gambler's Strike from the crit response chain means we can gamble multiple mobs faster. Also, with AoE Twist it should be possible to not only stun, but damage gamble three mobs at once. So it could turn out to be an AoE damage and stun. :)

Also, with Glee CD reduced Gambler becomes an effective CC line as well. As it stands my non-buffed gamble chance is 55%, with the dev. crit bonus it goes to 95%, so the mezz will work most of the time AND heal me.

So, as it stands, I don't think people realize how good these changes are for not just QK, but Gambler as well. It becomes even more of a survivability line, with AoE DPS with a stun, spammable mezzes, and debuffs.

Obviously we didn't get a full proper overhaul, but it seems most classes aren't getting that (only Champs/Wardens/Minstrels/Captains).

For just a "polish" of the class though, we got some really nice changes. Rask obviously knows what he's doing unlike the other dev who cannot be named who was responsible for the previous update (the one that was supposedly an in depth update...).

tldr: This update seems really good when you compare it to our last one.

I love how so many PVMP players are so quick to cry that a class is totally OP without even thinking about the fact that ALL classes are getting an overhaul. That creep you're so worried about having die to burgs just might be far more OP than the burg. The point is that we don't know yet. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions before Isengard goes live.

I like the sound of the changes in the dev diary. They didn't do as much with Gambler or Mischief Maker as I expected, but the changes sound great to smooth out playstyle in general.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daph

I love how so many PVMP players are so quick to cry that a class is totally OP without even thinking about the fact that ALL classes are getting an overhaul. That creep you're so worried about having die to burgs just might be far more OP than the burg. The point is that we don't know yet. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions before Isengard goes live.

I like the sound of the changes in the dev diary. They didn't do as much with Gambler or Mischief Maker as I expected, but the changes sound great to smooth out playstyle in general.

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No, they really won't. Perhaps you aren't aware, but there are threads detailing creep updates already, and they don't bring them anywhere near Burglars as they are now, let alone post RoI.

I don't know whether you play a creep, as you do not say so in your sig, but Burglars are overpowered in the Moors right now, buffing them is the absolute worst decision they could have made. Note I say overpowered, NOT unbeatable. Of course Burgs will die on occasion, the problem is they are far harder to kill than any other class in the game(except perhaps Guardians).

As I have already said, I don't care if these changes make their way to PvE, that's fine. But they really do need to be adjusted(read: weakened, severely) when in the Moors. True balance will never be achieved, but that doesn't mean you should just give up trying.

The Improved Riddle will be the perfect ganking skill. If you don't like someone in the moors, just give him a 15s daze every 60 seconds. Again and again and there is nothing he can do because he can't see you. Is this supposed to be fun, Turbine? WAI?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NKolev

How can one riddle an animal.
How can one pose a riddle to someone when invisible.
OK so sense is no longer an element of this game.... i see....

P.S. Even WoW's rogue makes more sense than the burglar nowadays!!!

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Yes because before this change, the idea that the thing charging toward you with the big knife would listen to you tell a riddle, then put off killing you to stand around having a think about the perplexing riddle makes so much sense....

deleted because it would be wasted energy...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimble

Yes because before this change, the idea that the thing charging toward you with the big knife would listen to you tell a riddle, then put off killing you to stand around having a think about the perplexing riddle makes so much sense....

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Not only that, but it stands around thinking about this while you kill its allies. "Hmm, Gronk, I dunno... 'e sez dere's dese horses on a hill dat champ and stamp 'n stuff... Gronk? Why youz bleedin' so much? How'z youz supposed ta help me wit dis Riddle if you'z all dead 'n stuff?!"

[accent shamelessly stolen from WH40K's Orkz]

As a Weaver in the 'Moors, I hate to say it, but the ability to mez us with Riddle does work with the lore. The very fact that Wargs and Spiders can accept and complete quests for their superiors shows that they have the capacity to understand language and can form abstract thought. Further, as previously mentioned in this thread, the more experienced Wargs and Spiders can even speak (and have had their own voice acting added in the game to boot). I wouldn't say that the same is true in PvE, however, as most of the spiders you encounter in Middle-earth are merely single entities functioning in a brood by instinct.

On the gameplay side, however, it is without a doubt a terrible idea to allow burgs to use these abilities in PvP. They will have too much control over the battlefield with little consequence. Let me outline a few instances where this is particularly destructive to Creeps.

1. Impossible fights. A few burgs in a raid could easily hide behind the Creep side of an altercation and pluck off Defilers and Warleaders with riddles while the main Freep group snipes them off or ignores them altogether as the rest of the Creeps go down. For the majority, pots will make no difference in this case, as the burgs have all the time in the world to wait off our immunity with no consequence to themselves for spamming riddles all around. When there is no applicable response to the enemy's strategy in the game other than running around frantically hoping for a stealth alert to show, you know that gameplay is broken.

2. Fight locations. There is very little chance that Freeps will find any group of Creeps smaller than a raid fighting outside of a fortification. Burgs will turn into the boogeyman as Creeps will be constantly mezzed by them in the open with no possible recourse either than turning tail and running, and that's only applicable if the burg hasn't killed it already or that burg pops out of stealth, which will only be the case when the burg believes that he/she can win the fight. Even if the Creep gets a chance to run from the burg, it has no idea which direction the enemy is coming from and will likely run right into it, making pots much less useful. In a solo, every advantage will be given to the burg to choose its fights and harass its opponent with no commitment to the fight in any way (which is the major difference from the burg as it is now; at least there is a small window of vulnerability when using riddle to incapacitate your gank). Right now, afaik, the only ability that a burg can use on a Creep without breaking stealth is RW, which has no effect on the Creep other than alerting it to a nearby burg. In addition, it allows him that chance to pop a skill or run before the hammer falls. With Riddle in stealth, the burg gets time to get its bearings and the upper hand without being seen or sacrificing his stealth critical for using riddle. Which leads to...

3. No more solo creeps. Burgs will likely form the strategy of using a riddle on a Creep to find out if more numbers are around. If no one comes to assist, the burg will drop stealth and that Creep is good as dead. If they do come, then there's no harm to the burg and it can run without wasting a HIPS as is the case now.

I want to be clear that I harbor no ill will towards burg PVP players- they are only using what Turbine has made available for them, and a burg is my main Freep. The real enemy and the object of hostility (if any) should be the people who made these features available and put their collective boot in the face of people who are just wishing to have some amount of control over their success in the game. I believe that the Riddle change will utterly break the already tenuous balance of PvMP in the Moors, with Creeps being constantly affected with what is equivalent to a smiting from the gods that grants invulnerability to its user.

If anyone has a response to my concerns that can be written positively without accusing me of QQing, I would really appreciate it. In a way, we are all on the same side. If PvMP turns into renown/infamy harvesting, then there is little entertainment value left for us. We leave the other side little opportunity to challenge our abilities if steamrolling becomes the norm, and we should all be willing to criticize how classes on our respective sides fit into the constantly changing atmosphere in the 'Moors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

As a Weaver in the 'Moors, I hate to say it, but the ability to mez us with Riddle does work with the lore. The very fact that Wargs and Spiders can accept and complete quests for their superiors shows that they have the capacity to understand language and can form abstract thought. Further, as previously mentioned in this thread, the more experienced Wargs and Spiders can even speak (and have had their own voice acting added in the game to boot). I wouldn't say that the same is true in PvE, however, as most of the spiders you encounter in Middle-earth are merely single entities functioning in a brood by instinct.

On the gameplay side, however, it is without a doubt a terrible idea to allow burgs to use these abilities in PvP. They will have too much control over the battlefield with little consequence. Let me outline a few instances where this is particularly destructive to Creeps.

1. Impossible fights. A few burgs in a raid could easily hide behind the Creep side of an altercation and pluck off Defilers and Warleaders with riddles while the main Freep group snipes them off or ignores them altogether as the rest of the Creeps go down. For the majority, pots will make no difference in this case, as the burgs have all the time in the world to wait off our immunity with no consequence to themselves for spamming riddles all around (made even worse with the trait that cuts the Riddle CD in half). When there is no applicable response to the enemy's strategy in the game other than running around frantically hoping for a stealth alert to show, you know that gameplay is broken.

2. Fight locations. There is very little chance that Freeps will find any group of Creeps smaller than a raid fighting outside of a fortification. Burgs will turn into the boogeyman as Creeps will be constantly mezzed by them in the open with no possible recourse either than turning tail and running, and that's only applicable if the burg hasn't killed it already or that burg pops out of stealth, which will only be the case when the burg believes that he/she can win the fight. Even if the Creep gets a chance to run from the burg, it has no idea which direction the enemy is coming from and will likely run right into it, making pots much less useful. In a solo, every advantage will be given to the burg to choose its fights and harass its opponent with no commitment to the fight in any way (which is the major difference from the burg as it is now; at least there is a small window of vulnerability when using riddle to incapacitate your gank). Right now, afaik, the only ability that a burg can use on a Creep without breaking stealth is RW, which has no effect on the Creep other than alerting it to a nearby burg. In addition, it allows him that chance to pop a skill or run before the hammer falls. With Riddle in stealth, the burg gets time to get its bearings and the upper hand without being seen or sacrificing his stealth critical for using riddle. Which leads to...

3. No more solo creeps. Burgs will likely form the strategy of using a riddle on a Creep to find out if more numbers are around. If no one comes to assist, the burg will drop stealth and that Creep is good as dead. If they do come, then there's no harm to the burg and it can run without wasting a HIPS as is the case now.

I want to be clear that I harbor no ill will towards burg PVP players- they are only using what Turbine has made available for them, and a burg is my main Freep. The real enemy and the object of hostility (if any) should be the people who made these features available and put their collective boot in the face of people who are just wishing to have some amount of control over their success in the game. I believe that the Riddle change will utterly break the already tenuous balance of PvMP in the Moors, with Creeps being constantly affected with what is equivalent to a smiting from the gods that grants invulnerability to its user.

If anyone has a response to my concerns that can be written positively without accusing me of QQing, I would really appreciate it. In a way, we are all on the same side. If PvMP turns into renown/infamy harvesting, then there is little entertainment value left for us. We leave the other side little opportunity to challenge our abilities if steamrolling becomes the norm, and we should all be willing to criticize how classes on our respective sides fit into the constantly changing atmosphere in the 'Moors.

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I'm honestly afraid, lol. This is a good stated, quality post. Now the devs are going to look at this post, go "oh ####, we messed up big time", and nerf the updates completely.

But you have to think, if the devs just sit around afraid to update the burg with anything worthwhile because of the massive creep uproar, than the burg will just slide even further into a role of playing a secondary DPS class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Celestrata

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Celestrata

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

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Right, right (must by why they don't need proper functioning armor set bonuses and whatnot)...

...except TG/MM.

That other part too.... ya know, where they don't have a unique/specialized/exclusive role at all.

*CC-wise/stealthriddle; I can already smell the bugs, and hear them crunching under my feet.

Despite Riddle from stealth sounding amazing (yes, sounding amazing... don't play dumb*), I hardly see how a Burglar's CC (or debuffs... or DPS...) would be preferred over an LM's.

Thing is, you didn't just mess up by not making Burgs "the" debuff (as was their obvious intention) or CC class, you messed up by making LMs BOTH "the" debuff and CC class.

"5/6 for X instance have tank/heals (add "need cc", "need debuffs", or just "need utility" if you wish) pst" - Burg vs LM

DPS: LMs red-traited slam a Burg from his/her chance at a DPS slot in pretty much everything, because AOE > ST for most (/all) trash pulls. If its for a DPS slot, the Burg loses. I will be very surprised if this gets a single objection.

CC: On top of their mezzing/stunning (which more or less will post-RoI be an even playing field with Burgs) - LM's can root-kite 5 targets indefinitely (it isn't ever required, but the class has the capability, WHILE KEEPING TWO TARGETS PERMA-MEZZED!). /the Burg loses. /Even DPS traited LMs bring their stun immunity, disease (and/or wound) removal, a heal, power sharing, and *AOE* debuffs to the table, which brings us to...

Debuffs: Burglar debuffs are not as good as LM's for running an instance (as in trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, boss). LM debuffs are AOE, effect 3 - yellow trait for 8! - targets, can STACK, and can be kept up on said 3-8 mobs 50% (always 100% for Wind Lore) of the time with blue/red traitlines , and 100% of the time with yellow capstone. One trick per mob, or even two, can never compare... 3-target Dust looks like putrid festering troll carcass next to Fire Lore on 8 targets (plus whatever else the LM decides to stack).

Utility/efficiency/fastest/safest runs: LMs non-red still have AOE capability (> than Burgs at least), their pet's DPS, a potential 5+ target Ancient Craft every/every-other pull, stun immunity, disease and potential wound removal, and the ability to heal and share power during FM-immune-Boss fights. Burgs have poison removal where LMs have wound/disease/stun/silence removal. Burgs have nothing where LMs have a heal and a power share during boss fights.

I know that Burgs and LMs aren't "meant" to be compared in such a way, but that is how I view the subject at hand. These are both "support" classes, but are very similar in their roles (sadly), and are both quite different from Captains.

"A bit more CC" doesn't do squat for the class in the longrun.

Burgs were supposed to be debuffers - THE debuffers, and they aren't.
They aren't THE CCers.
They aren't THE DPS class by any stretch of the imagination.

With FMs "given" to Cappies and Guards (they happen sooooo often) the Burg loses their ONLY unique aspect. Throw into the mix that most bosses are immune to FMs...?

What the hell are Burglars. What is or was the "vision" for this class?

Please stop trying to make them the Jack-of-All-Trades... it is quite clear to everyone that that is the Loremaster, without question.

Why didn't you improve FMs, or add FM options/combos when a Burg is in a fellowship regardless of which party member started the FM? SOMETHING? ANYTHING?

You should have given/need to give Burglars something that would make someone in a group think "this would be a breeze with a decent Burg", or "wow, a Burg would make that fight so much easier".

As is, Burgs are the absolute only class that I have yet to find a place/reason to make such a statement (where an LM/other class couldn't have done the same thing).

I'm still waiting.

(I have grouped with some AMAZING Burgs, and am not trying to belittle what good Burg players are capable of. I only wish that Turbine would give you more to be proud of than filling an offline LM's CC slot or snatching the 6th slot in a group [that you didn't start] and a -75% Addle.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

... stealth riddle ...

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The one minute cooldown on Riddle takes a lot of the sting out of this new ability.

I'm not convinced that burgs will give up the element of surprise, as opposed to using Riddle after the opening attack.


However, packs of burgs (which I dislike in PvP) will probably find a use for it.


I wouldn't mind if Riddle from stealth had a very short range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

I have to wonder whether you play your burg much, as it is Mischief stance which reduces the cooldown to 30 seconds. Remember, the stance that cannot be used in stealth, and is hardly ever used in PvP?

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Ah sorry about that. Yeah I run Gambler almost exclusively these days when I play my burg so I must have mixed up the trait with the stance. That is a slight relief that I was wrong. But it's still going to scare the #### out of everyone when they get riddled and have no idea where to run/how to respond.

Going to edit that post to avoid other people wasting time pointing out that mistake :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vilda

more crying creeps :))

but i am little bit disappointed, that there are no changes for broken gambler line..

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i mostly freep. there goes your point.

sorry to break it to you so harshly

edit: i never thought i would see the day where a burglar becomes overpowered in RvR. its actually funny when you think about it.

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

But it's still going to scare the #### out of everyone when they get riddled and have no idea where to run/how to respond.

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To be honest, when I saw the riddle from stealth thing, I immediately thought of the WoW rogue.(which has always been able to mez from stealth, its a signature move of theirs.) I'm sure it will be used here the same as it is there in PvP, to see if you can get the target to waste a pot to get out of it [or WoW's equivalent of a pot, a trinket use] and then make them pay if they did waste it on that.(along with just mezzing everything you stealth by but have no intention of fighting, just being a punk.) Lotro's burgs are a lot smarter bunch than wow's rogues though, so it is entirely possible that you could see the raid vs raid burg healer manipulation tactic that Dyslex described above.

Riddle from stealth, as fun as it might be in PvE, really has no place at all in PvMP.

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

But it's still going to scare the #### out of everyone when they get riddled and have no idea where to run/how to respond.

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This is good. ;)

It may even be a cheeky reminder that the burg is around, but not coming after you, as a more serious burg would just attack.

As a mainly creep player, i have a sense of foreboding about the upcoming burg changes.

An already powerful, arguably OP class, will be even stronger, even harder to kill, and harder to escape from than before.

Also, the Ettens needed less, not more CC, IMO.

These changes are great if you are mainly a burg player.

But i think that this will come at the cost of creep players' exasperation.

To be honest, I'm an annoying nag. I really love ganking and there are a lot of creep players I don't like. It's gonna be a damn pleasure to riddle this guys again and again with no opportunity to defend themselves.

Thanks, Turbine, for this free ticket to grief play!

Im kinda upset they didn't make it easier for the burglars that trait different capstones. For Instance im a Feint Attack Burglar allll the way. but sometimes i need to go trait gambler for a instance and i have to pull out a whole new dagger just to have it on a 15 sec cd. i wish that we could have 1 legacy to reduce the 3 capstones CD (heck make it a major i don't mind)

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Originally Posted by Disperate

As a mainly creep player, i have a sense of foreboding about the upcoming burg changes.

An already powerful, arguably OP class, will be even stronger, even harder to kill, and harder to escape from than before.

Also, the Ettens needed less, not more CC, IMO.

These changes are great if you are mainly a burg player.

But i think that this will come at the cost of creep players' exasperation.

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^ This.

With my hobbit burg- no wargie will have a chance.
Imagine now: Traited DiTE+new AoE Twist+Riddle working on everything= more dead wargs.

Now, not that this is necessarily a BAD thing- as long as I don't play my warg ;) There are a few I wouldn't mind ganking.

I dunno- I don't think these changes are quite for the better. I don't know what I'd do instead: so since they have the ideas, they win.

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Originally Posted by addict82

Right, right (must by why they don't need proper functioning armor set bonuses and whatnot)...

...except TG/MM.

That other part too.... ya know, where they don't have a unique/specialized/exclusive role at all.

*CC-wise/stealthriddle; I can already smell the bugs, and hear them crunching under my feet.

Despite Riddle from stealth sounding amazing (yes, sounding amazing... don't play dumb*), I hardly see how a Burglar's CC (or debuffs... or DPS...) would be preferred over an LM's.

Thing is, you didn't just mess up by not making Burgs "the" debuff (as was their obvious intention) or CC class, you messed up by making LMs BOTH "the" debuff and CC class.

"5/6 for X instance have tank/heals (add "need cc", "need debuffs", or just "need utility" if you wish) pst" - Burg vs LM

DPS: LMs red-traited slam a Burg from his/her chance at a DPS slot in pretty much everything, because AOE > ST for most (/all) trash pulls. If its for a DPS slot, the Burg loses. I will be very surprised if this gets a single objection.

CC: On top of their mezzing/stunning (which more or less will post-RoI be an even playing field with Burgs) - LM's can root-kite 5 targets indefinitely (it isn't ever required, but the class has the capability, WHILE KEEPING TWO TARGETS PERMA-MEZZED!). /the Burg loses. /Even DPS traited LMs bring their stun immunity, disease (and/or wound) removal, a heal, power sharing, and *AOE* debuffs to the table, which brings us to...

Debuffs: Burglar debuffs are not as good as LM's for running an instance (as in trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, boss). LM debuffs are AOE, effect 3 - yellow trait for 8! - targets, can STACK, and can be kept up on said 3-8 mobs 50% (always 100% for Wind Lore) of the time with blue/red traitlines , and 100% of the time with yellow capstone. One trick per mob, or even two, can never compare... 3-target Dust looks like putrid festering troll carcass next to Fire Lore on 8 targets (plus whatever else the LM decides to stack).

Utility/efficiency/fastest/safest runs: LMs non-red still have AOE capability (> than Burgs at least), their pet's DPS, a potential 5+ target Ancient Craft every/every-other pull, stun immunity, disease and potential wound removal, and the ability to heal and share power during FM-immune-Boss fights. Burgs have poison removal where LMs have wound/disease/stun/silence removal. Burgs have nothing where LMs have a heal and a power share during boss fights.

I know that Burgs and LMs aren't "meant" to be compared in such a way, but that is how I view the subject at hand. These are both "support" classes, but are very similar in their roles (sadly), and are both quite different from Captains.

"A bit more CC" doesn't do squat for the class in the longrun.

Burgs were supposed to be debuffers - THE debuffers, and they aren't.
They aren't THE CCers.
They aren't THE DPS class by any stretch of the imagination.

With FMs "given" to Cappies and Guards (they happen sooooo often) the Burg loses their ONLY unique aspect. Throw into the mix that most bosses are immune to FMs...?

What the hell are Burglars. What is or was the "vision" for this class?

Please stop trying to make them the Jack-of-All-Trades... it is quite clear to everyone that that is the Loremaster, without question.

Why didn't you improve FMs, or add FM options/combos when a Burg is in a fellowship regardless of which party member started the FM? SOMETHING? ANYTHING?

You should have given/need to give Burglars something that would make someone in a group think "this would be a breeze with a decent Burg", or "wow, a Burg would make that fight so much easier".

As is, Burgs are the absolute only class that I have yet to find a place/reason to make such a statement (where an LM/other class couldn't have done the same thing).

I'm still waiting.

(I have grouped with some AMAZING Burgs, and am not trying to belittle what good Burg players are capable of. I only wish that Turbine would give you more to be proud of than filling an offline LM's CC slot or snatching the 6th slot in a group [that you didn't start] and a -75% Addle.)

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^ This. Its already hard to prove brg is usefull. But if somebody will tell me we have already lm, it's even hard to argue with that :/

Just giving some thoughts on Improved Riddle. This was clearly inspiredby the class patriarch Bilbo Baggins who, while wearing the One Ring, played the riddle game with Smaug The Golden. Ofcourse while Burglars don't possess a ring of power, I think this is a terrific improvement to the class and ought to provide some interesting new dynamics to solo and group play.

That being said, as far as PvP is concerned this is an extremely bad decision as the potentional forcontinous harrassment and frustration is staggering. This skill is much more detrimental to balance and fairplay than Desperate Flight ever was, and it ought to be disabled from the Ettenmoors. The expansion of Riddle's apllicabilitybis cause enough for complaint. Tho why I or any one else expects better from Turbine is beyond me. Since launch they have made it quite clear what they think of the PvMP community. At best, we are comparable to that deformed brother the Fortellis keep chained in the basement, sedated with old pirate serials when they are not busy throwing leftover food in our face and tormenting us with bad renditions of opera. (ref. The Goonies)
In other words, don't expect this to change. And don't expect the devs to care.

From this and the previous Developer Diary can we assume that there will be no NEW skills from level 65 to level 75 but only improvements to previous ones.
While I do understand that players don't want to be overwhelmed with new powers, as a recent level 64 hunter, I can say that from level 52, the only levels I was ansious about were the three levels that gave me new skills.

Improvements are nice, but new toys are better.

At least in my prespective both as a leve 64 hunter and as a level 54 Rune-Keeper.

Why not give us at least one or two new skills between those 10 levels?

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Why not give us at least one or two new skills between those 10 levels?

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Couse on wrd for example i already have gambits I don't even use. On burg, or especcially on minnie my toolbars are absolutly full. Better to improve than add something new, taht will be useless (Never Surrender for example).

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Originally Posted by Cliford

Couse on wrd for example i already have gambits I don't even use. On burg, or especcially on minnie my toolbars are absolutly full. Better to improve than add something new, taht will be useless (Never Surrender for example).

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While that may be true for some classes, others have plenty of room for extra skills. My hunter has plenty of room for new shinies as has my rune keeper. And even if you don't use some gambits on your warden, doesn't mean that there are too many gambits but just that some of them are mostly useless.

I am disappointed at the lack of a defined role for burglars in PVE. The devs mentioned their vision for the burglar class when they changed the main stat from might to agility. Well, what is the vision for the class? And how does the agility stat better support that vision?

I have yet to read anything more than 'burgs are fine,' despite the fact that burglars are the least played class in the game. If not for their extreme potency in PVP, I think the number of burglars would be very small - limited to filling niche roles in certain raid content.

In contrast, the dev posts on champions very clearly state what the class is supposed to be, and how each trait line supports that vision. Same for captains.

The only clearly defined line for burglars is quiet knife. The role is obvious - single target damage.

Mischief appears to be the cc line, but with limited ae cc, the line seems lackluster at best. And most of the debuffing benefits of mischief can be achieved in a 5qk/2mm build.

I have no idea what role gambler is supposed to play.

At this point, I see the burglar class as a hodgepodge of random skills with little thought or planning. Disappointing

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Originally Posted by Cliford

But if somebody will tell me we have already lm, it's even hard to argue with that :/

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It's easy to argue with that! The two classes do different things. Lore-master debuffs enemies to hit less but burglar can debuff it so you do more damage. Combine the two and you've got a lot of usefulness. LM sends in pet to off-tank, burglar does evasion off-tank.

I never really buy into the idea that there should only be one build/class for each role, that's short sighted. I want lots of overlap so that you have lots of adaptability and variety. The real problem is that there are so many players (and devs) who refuse to see beyond tank/dps/heal that any support class becomes second class, and that they're encouraged to become one of the three main roles (ie, burglars running in quiet knife instead of mischief maker, lore masters giving up mezzing to do more damage, captains relegated to being healbots).

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

From this and the previous Developer Diary can we assume that there will be no NEW skills from level 65 to level 75 but only improvements to previous ones.

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Sounds reasonable.

Please note that some other games out there, including some very major ones, do not include lots of new skills all the time. For instance when you level up in WoW your skills do not automatically improve but instead you learn more powerful version of your skills. So you end up with a much smaller set of skills overall compared to LotRO.

Many of my characters (I have all classes) are to full of skills already. My minstrel already can not slot all of them. If I got a new skill for my burglar I do not know where I would put it.

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Originally Posted by Ellda

At this point, I see the burglar class as a hodgepodge of random skills with little thought or planning. Disappointing

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I see burglar as Mischief Maker. That's the thought and design behind it. Burglars are in there messing up the enemy's plans, the fly in the ointment. It seems like a hodgepodge because there's a large bag of tricks. Classes like hunter are simple because the bag of tricks is very small: do damage, occasionally lay traps and remove poison. But burglar is mezzing, debuffing, stunning, starting conjunctions, interrupt, doing damage, etc. Look at the names of the skills, this fits right in with the burglar mind set: counfound, riddle, disable, provoke, trip, addle.

There's definitely planning here. Or there was when it was first designed, though not much love given to the core mischief maker skills though.

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

While that may be true for some classes, others have plenty of room for extra skills. My hunter has plenty of room for new shinies as has my rune keeper. And even if you don't use some gambits on your warden, doesn't mean that there are too many gambits but just that some of them are mostly useless.

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Yeah, I'd happily have more skills too. Burgs should have plenty of quickslot room.

I agree that its hard to justify wanting a Burglar as opposed to an LM for most 6 man instances. However, in the rare instances that aren't just an excuse for an aoe-fest (eg: SS), Burglars are as useful as anything else.

That said, we don't really have it that bad. Consider, why would you ever want to take a good Hunter over a good Burglar for a 6 man instance? You wouldn't.

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The only thing that frustrates me about this update is that it appears as though QK is still going to be just as powerful versus MM/TG as it is now: there's still not enough reason to trait any other way (in group PvE at least) because the other trait lines weren't given enough stuff.

This update is definitely focused in the right direction though with the new MM line bonuses, an aoe stun, and the capstones outside of the crit chain. If Rask is able to put a bit more time to the class at some point, I'm sure he could come up with a solid overhaul.

After some of the nonsense in our previous update, I had thought the class was headed for a future of consistently miserable updates.

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I can only imagine they didn't really consider how these changes will effect PvP. The ability to Riddle anything from stealth is an ideal way to ensure people's frustration is maximized. Oh well, at least they're not going back to no diminishing returns on CC... I'm actually surprised anyone is still playing in the moors (aka: ZvZ*).

* Zerg vs Zerg

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Originally Posted by Evendale

I agree that its hard to justify wanting a Burglar as opposed to an LM for most 6 man instances. However, in the rare instances that aren't just an excuse for an aoe-fest (eg: SS), Burglars are as useful as anything else.

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They are useful, yes. But "as useful", I dunno.

6 slots for a group (current-game), GB, SS, LT, whatever;

1: Guardian or Warden (tank) - someone to hold aggro.

2: Minstrel or RK (healer) - someone to keep aggro-holder+everyone else alive.

3: Champ (DPS) - ideal AOE DPS for trash, satisfactory/ideal (depends on the Champ) ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, ideal aggro management.

4: Hunter (ranged DPS) - ideal ST DPS for trash, ideal ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, typically takes role of "healer-savior", has traps for backup CC, ideal aggro management.

5: Captain (Buffs/off-Heals/support) - everyone wants them, the reasons are obvious.

^That is what I find most 6 man groups to aim for, so a typical group would consist of those 5 classes.

And now we are left with a vacant slot number 6.

So, what to take, what to take?


Burg (utility/support) - satisfactory ST DPS for trash, FMs (+morale/+power/extra DPS) on trash, ideal ST DPS for bosses (when in position), CC, (only) 1 trick per enemy, poison removal, no FM's (no morale, no power, no extra DPS) on bosses.

LM (utility/support) - satisfactory ST/AOE DPS for trash (ideal AOE if MoNF) , satisfactory ST DPS for bosses (ideal if MoNF), CC (less so if MoNF), (self-)stackable debuffs, disease removal, wound removal, stun removal/immunity, silence removal, a pet with whatever benefits the current pet offers (Shatter Arms, Nobility, Distraction, etc.), a heal every 20 or 30 seconds (including during FM immune boss fights), a power share+method to refill LMs power indefinitely (including during FM immune boss fights), and a rez.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....


LMs in addition to having the "AOE-fest" advantage (to their DPS *AND* their debuffs), also provide MUCHHHH more group utility.

So, I have concluded LM > Burg for usefulness in slot number 6, with tank/heals/aoedeepz/stdeepz/buffs already factored in.

Perhaps he could fit in one of the other slots?

1: (tank) Burg in this slot can't do it.

2: (heals) Burg in this slot can't do it.

3: (AOE DPS) Burg in this slot will slow you down.

4: (ST DPS) Burg could actually take this one! Would provide less DPS than a Hunter though, and lacks the 40m range and aggro management.

5: (Buffs/off-heals/utility) Burg will slow you down/make it more difficult than it needs to be in this slot.

/Nope.

I really have a difficult time finding a place for a Burg.

In a raid, absolutely! But in a 6-man? Mehhh.

this update is ridiculous, everyone know the real problems with burglars lies with practical joke and burgle.

please make practical joke work 100% of the time and a shorter cooldown.

and i want to burgle something 100% of the time. and make it work on beasts as well...

:P

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Originally Posted by addict82

4: Hunter (ranged DPS) - ideal ST DPS for trash, ideal ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, typically takes role of "healer-savior", has traps for backup CC, ideal aggro management.

4: (ST DPS) Burg could actually take this one! Would provide less DPS than a Hunter though, and lacks the 40m range and aggro management.

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I do agree with most of what you said but not this quoted part.

A good Burglar should not only do roughly equivalent dps to a Hunter, but also increase the groups damage (drastically in boss fights), and has better utility (CC/stuns/cjs & interrupts/disable). Basically, Burglars should contribute more damage than Hunters and are much more useful when things get tough. A good tank and/or champ means a "healer-saver" is totally unnecessary.

That said, people just take what they can get for most groups. Most people don't care that much. Ideally it'd be nice to bring 3-4 champs along on most instances to make them go fast but there aren't that many good champs around.

Sorry for getting this a bit off topic.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

I see burglar as Mischief Maker. That's the thought and design behind it. Burglars are in there messing up the enemy's plans, the fly in the ointment. It seems like a hodgepodge because there's a large bag of tricks. Classes like hunter are simple because the bag of tricks is very small: do damage, occasionally lay traps and remove poison. But burglar is mezzing, debuffing, stunning, starting conjunctions, interrupt, doing damage, etc. Look at the names of the skills, this fits right in with the burglar mind set: counfound, riddle, disable, provoke, trip, addle.

There's definitely planning here. Or there was when it was first designed, though not much love given to the core mischief maker skills though.

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Perhaps burglars were well thought out in the beginning, but, imo, the class has fallen behind in terms of their trait line focuses. For instance, I can read the champion ROI diary and know exactly what the intended role for each of the three trait lines. One stance is for tanking; another for full aoe dps; and another for dps with better survivability.

Same goes for the hunter update 2. Each trait line fulfills a specific role, and the roles are well-defined.

With the exception of confound, all of the skills you mentioned are available to burgs across all lines.

As if right now, the only line that has an obvious, defined role is quiet knife. And that role is single target damage. This is a great role for big boss fights in raids, and is overpowered in PVP.

But what role does gambler play? Or mischief maker? I have played all three lines, and I know what each line can do. But, I have not read anything to suggest any kind of plan for each of the lines. Gambler and Mischief appear to be patched on, neglected additions to the burglar class.

To be fair, it does look like they are trying to make some improvements to Mischief. However, I never read anything that said 'why' they are making those changes. Maybe the reasons are obvious to others, but not to me. For instance, the debuff cooldown change is nice, but I never found the cooldowns to be a hindrance if I want to debuff multiple mobs.

In other words, I still don't see any compelling reason to trait anything other than quiet knife. It is not a catastrophe, as burglar is still a fun and capable class. But it is disappointing.

I do not at all agree with the change to riddle. I think it is breaks the lore (I don't do PvP so my comments have nothing to do with the moors). If you were going to mess with Riddle why not put your effort into fixing the animation and put it back the way it was before mischief was introduced so that we're not standing around waving our hands in the air!

I do agree with removing the capstone skills from the crit chain. From the day that Moria was introduced I never understood why anyone thought it was a good idea to put them at the end of the crit chain.

The change to surprise strike is long overdue, although it does seem rather arbitrary that it won't work with Improved Feint (yes I know, it was too powerful).

Why no new tricks?? Where is the creativity? Is not 3 or 4 years enough development time to think of even one new trick, or has the well run dry? Many creative ideas have been suggested, yet for reasons known only Turbine they were all ignored. The burglar has become stagnant.

All in all I find the update another in a long list of disappointments. Instead of restoring the uniqueness of the class these changes seem to be more about homogenizing the burglar with other classes. I don't like that. I play a burglar as my main because of its uniqueness. This bothers me more than anything else.

Oh, and by the way. It still doesn't make any sense that we can't toggle mischief in combat.

I find it curious and irritating that the majority of attention in the Dev Tracker today is focused in the Champion feedback thread, while we haven't had any attention at all since the topic was posted. The burg is arguably in more dire straits than the champ ever was, and it is evident that most players posting here aren't happy.

I have a Spider and a Burg. That's it. I don't like making alts and replaying content since I have a decent memory, in much the same way as I go for years before rereading a book. If the burglar class goes down the tubes and continues to be irrelevant in most of the smaller group content, then I can likely say that I will be leaving the game after my 3 1/2 years. I would be really sad that it would come to that, but I'm not going to pay for a subscription when my chosen class has such a hard time becoming involved and is rarely being improved.

Why aren't the devs listening to us? It seems that the majority is concerned with the fact that we have no specific role that allows us to stand out in a group. Why isn't Turbine making the wise decision to let the players become involved in the process or telling us outright how they expect us to compete with other classes that function in group mechanics much better than we do?

The line of communication when it comes to the Burglar has been rather broken for the last couple of years, and the Month of the Burglar is a lame excuse to not balance the class further when many of those playing a level 65 Burg will be laying down at least $30 to support the game's expansion. In short, we deserve better efforts than this, no matter how close the last update was. The quality of the class should be the overarching concern, not that fact that you recently spent time working on it. I know that I'm not the only one who hopes that Turbine will soon realize that the methods they're utilizing aren't working to keep what used to be a very viable class from becoming all but extinct.

I want to hear only two things from devs.

For what i suppose to use wich trait line? Explain me that, becouse I am dump, and see usage only for one:

QK is DPS line.
Gamble is ... line?
MM is ... line?

Second thing. What in mind of devs is role of burg in fellow/raid?

Two simple questions.

Edit: From curiosity i checked dev tracker, page after page. Last dev response about brg i found here. It's from 1 june. It was 2 months ago... I do not belive in any response. :(

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Originally Posted by Cliford

Edit: From curiosity i checked dev tracker, page after page. Last dev response about brg i found here. It's from 1 june. It was 2 months ago... I do not belive in any response. :(

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Lol, that is ironic that one of the extremely few posts we got from a dev actually turned out to be wrong :p.