Same loots for all instances ?!

After some tests, it seems all the loots are the same for all instances. :rolleyes:

Tell me this is wrong, otherwise, everyone will do Faceroll School/Lib instances in an infinite loop, by going directly to bosses
(a yellow Champ can kill all adds in a few seconds in these instances, ridiculous !)

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Originally Posted by Castorix

After some tests, it seems all the loots are the same for all instances. :rolleyes:

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It does look so :(

I got the same heavy gloves from School and from Durchest t2c.
Exactly same heavy shoulders from Sambrog and SG. In total I got these shoulders 5 times now and all the time with tanking stats. I did not see even any variety for gear.

Typical Turbine! After RockX spent (what must have taken ages) re-itemising all of the scaled instances in Update 10, Turbine go and throw it all by bloating stats and introducing minimal 1-dimensional replacements. I know a lot of people disliked the gold farm but it was nice there were lots of different teals (and some interesting procs) which allowed some interesting builds and a degree of customisation etc. Also the different clusters having different drops was nice.

Sometimes Turbine reminds me of a dog constantly chasing its tail.

As it stands, all instances do pull their rare drops from a common pool based on individual class needs. You have a chance to receive these rewards from all chests.

Incomparable gear has a chance to drop from the final chest, but is instead pulled from a unique list for each instance. Like the rare gear, each individual player has a chance to receive a drop.

Challenge chests will provide a guaranteed incomparable drop, which pulls from all of the available incomparable gear for all classes for a particular instance, but the rewards will be open to all players of the fellowship.

EDIT: As a side note, the 'bloat' in stats was required in order to provide a larger number of viable upgrades. With this expansion, I wanted players to be able to once again find use in uncommon and rare gear, rather than simply look for the next set of incomparables. This progression would not have been possible without the bump.

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Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

Typical Turbine! After RockX spent (what must have taken ages) re-itemising all of the scaled instances in Update 10, Turbine go and throw it all by bloating stats and introducing minimal 1-dimensional replacements. I know a lot of people disliked the gold farm but it was nice there were lots of different teals (and some interesting procs) which allowed some interesting builds and a degree of customisation etc. Also the different clusters having different drops was nice.

Sometimes Turbine reminds me of a dog constantly chasing its tail.

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I can't help but agree :p It isn't hard in theory to aknowledge that MMO's need some challenging content for those hardcore players with uber rare loot. Just keep it interesting and sort your loot turbine! :p

on another note slightly related, why is like every drop from warbands/ skirms/ instances a box full of marks, marks are boring i want loot. Loot that I know occasionally might be something rare. I miss those days where you would inspect a player and notice a piece you've never even heard of, ask them how they got it and tell you all the pain they went through! Its actually a big incentive to keep playing

In Turbine's defense I noticed that even landscape loot drops are worth looking at while leveling. I just downloaded HD the other day and I am at level 88 currently but even now I have seen some loot that is better then my Hytbold gear. I typically just vendor trash everything but I've managed to replace one or two pieces with pretty decent 'green' gear. I can't wait and see what I'll be able to loot closer to level 95!

Does this mean that every class has only one rare version of shoulders? Or has the global lootable more than just 6 purple Items for each class?

Have all incomparable lootables from scaled instances been changed?

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Originally Posted by Verizal

As it stands, all instances do pull their rare drops from a common pool based on individual class needs. You have a chance to receive these rewards from all chests.

Incomparable gear has a chance to drop from the final chest, but is instead pulled from a unique list for each instance. Like the rare gear, each individual player has a chance to receive a drop.

Challenge chests will provide a guaranteed incomparable drop, which pulls from all of the available incomparable gear for all classes for a particular instance, but the rewards will be open to all players of the fellowship.

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I'm not sure that's what we are seeing though!

I've tested a few things myself at lvl 50 to see what drops where, and done a good few T2C lvl 95 runs.

Incomparible = Teal yes?

Final chests are giving a mix of purples and teals, which is fine, but this certainly doesn't seem to be unique to the instances, as peeps have said above as well. I've had the same drops from school/library, iorbars peak, sambrog, thadur. So maybe this is the loot you mention in this sentance: all instances do pull their rare drops from a common pool based on individual class needs. You have a chance to receive these rewards from ALL chests.

If so then where ARE the unique instance teals from the final chest? I've not seen anything from any chest ever, other than 'Potent' xyz (purples) or 'Greater' xyz (teals)

lastly you mention challenge chest giving promised teal drop - this chest opens with classic loot rules, IE roll/pass, master looter, which seems to make sense when you have described what drops. BUT, all I have seen from these are bounties, fused relics and IXP tunes if i recall correctly. Certainly not seen any Teals at all.


I thought I would feedback to try and help explain what I've seen and hope you can take time to check what might be happening! Thanks for your reply, if I've got the wrong end of the stick I apologise, but I think something is not working as intended here for sure.

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Originally Posted by Verizal

As it stands, all instances do pull their rare drops from a common pool based on individual class needs. You have a chance to receive these rewards from all chests.

Incomparable gear has a chance to drop from the final chest, but is instead pulled from a unique list for each instance. Like the rare gear, each individual player has a chance to receive a drop.

Challenge chests will provide a guaranteed incomparable drop, which pulls from all of the available incomparable gear for all classes for a particular instance, but the rewards will be open to all players of the fellowship.

EDIT: As a side note, the 'bloat' in stats was required in order to provide a larger number of viable upgrades. With this expansion, I wanted players to be able to once again find use in uncommon and rare gear, rather than simply look for the next set of incomparables. This progression would not have been possible without the bump.

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This sounds like an awesome idea, but why is it not working this way? This is getting a little ridiculous that Turbine keeps dropping the ball when it comes to loot tables in new content....

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Originally Posted by Verizal

EDIT: As a side note, the 'bloat' in stats was required in order to provide a larger number of viable upgrades. With this expansion, I wanted players to be able to once again find use in uncommon and rare gear, rather than simply look for the next set of incomparables. This progression would not have been possible without the bump.

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you've yet to bump down how the rating to percentages ratio's properly like you said you would in beta :(

I respect the changes, just numbers really, but it is making a lot of content far to easy now.

I've gotten the same pocket from 7 platinum chest, the same gold twice. Not finishing set bonuses. Seems silly to get the same gold multiple times...

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Originally Posted by Verizal

As it stands, all instances do pull their rare drops from a common pool based on individual class needs. You have a chance to receive these rewards from all chests.

Incomparable gear has a chance to drop from the final chest, but is instead pulled from a unique list for each instance. Like the rare gear, each individual player has a chance to receive a drop.

Challenge chests will provide a guaranteed incomparable drop, which pulls from all of the available incomparable gear for all classes for a particular instance, but the rewards will be open to all players of the fellowship.

EDIT: As a side note, the 'bloat' in stats was required in order to provide a larger number of viable upgrades. With this expansion, I wanted players to be able to once again find use in uncommon and rare gear, rather than simply look for the next set of incomparables. This progression would not have been possible without the bump.

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The concept of this is very good. I think you'll find many players like the general concept of how you've done loot distribution, however:

As others have mentioned, the guaranteed incomparable drop seems to be not working. Are there any limitations on this that we might not be aware of (using the instance finder rather than manually creating the instance springs to mind)? While I've done only about a dozen scaled instances t2c, only half of them have dropped a 'teal' item, between all group member not just my personal drop rate in these instances.

The stats bloat is adding to a problem that has been growing for several years now in LOTRO, easy instances. Instances have managed to become even easier at 95 than they were at 85, which in a certain respect is actually impressive. While I don't think that is particularly your area of concern, the added stats bloat is further exacerbating the problem. If I was able to solo all the 3-man classics on t2c (where t2 exists, and where a mechanic doesn't exist preventing you from doing the challenge solo, like school) solo, at lvl 93, with 100% lvl 85 gear, why would I care about 'yellow' or 'purple' gear being relatively better? Its the same concept as why no one will be 'cashing out' their loot for bronze and silver rewards in big battles. They don't 'need' the yellow or purple gear to complete anything, so they will skip it and go straight for the top tier stuff.

More of a personal thing, but the naming scheme of prefixes and affixes, while somewhat more informative than what we had in the past does nothing but remind me of the Diablo-esque RNG item grind, rather than the content/lore based instance advancement atmosphere LOTRO has had in the past.

OK, re-read what was put above by Verizal and thinking it could mean the following:

A rare (purple) item (let's just call it Potent Sword of Finesse) - can drop from any chest, any instance.
The incomparible (teal) version of the same item (Greater Sword of Finesse) - should only be found in the final chest of a specific instance.


I will have to do some re-testing myself. Have I got that right Verizal?


Or.... is there loot we just plain aren't seeing drop at all?

Hoping to clear this up so we aren't running around looking for loot like headless chickens! lol :oD

So I'll see if I can clarify a bit more as to how things should be working, just so everyone is on the same page. Regardless, I will be looking into this personally to see where things may have gone wrong.

Rare (Purple) Gear
- All chests in all instances will pull from the same pool of rare gear that is relevant to all of your classes potential roles (DPS/Tank/Heal). There are numerous options for each slot, so exact duplicates are possible, but should not be all that likely (I can't really speak for the wonders of probability however).

Incomparable (Teal) Gear
- All final chests have a chance to pull from a unique list of incomparables that is relevant to one or more of your potential roles. When I say unique list, I mean that no two instances should have the same potential loot, and you should not see a single piece of gear in more than two instances. For example:

Instance 1 -
Shoulder
Ring

Instance 2 -
Chest
Feet

Instance 3 -
Necklace
Feet

The reason behind this is that I did not want to provide the potential for all stat groupings in a single area of PvE (Instances), and instead wanted players to explore as many areas of content as possible. For instance, a Burglar looking for a heavy crit build might be able to get crit-heavy boots from instances, but only a physical mastery-heavy chest piece. To get the crit-heavy chest piece, they may need to resort to reputation or warband lootboxes. If I were going to keep incomparable rewards completely unique, given the number of instances, it would mean that most spaces would only typically have one reward and thus be less meaningful to run once the drop was received. By keeping unique lists, however, I can at least assure that all instances maintain a chance of being run, and one is not overshadowed by another simply because it is easier to reach the last chest.

- Challenge chests should contain a pull from all of the potential last chest rewards for all classes. Unlike other chests, this loot will be opened up to the fellowship as a whole. I will be looking into reasons why this might not be dropping.


In regards to stat bloat and ease of instance running, we do realize that more balance is required, and do not intend to leave things in their current state. Part of the reason that I wanted to go with this loot scheme was to account for the potential ease of instance running, so that even is a player is managing to solo their way through an instance, there is no guarantee that they will simply be handed a piece of gear that they need.

When it comes to the rating to percentage ratio, adjustments were made, but it was not as drastic as I had imagined it would need to be, given the new stat groupings/allocations. We still do intend to do a full-on revision to how our caps are set up, but much of what you are seeing now will be addressed through further class revisions and adjustments to mobs that are 85+

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Originally Posted by Verizal

So I'll see if I can clarify a bit more as to how things should be working, just so everyone is on the same page. Regardless, I will be looking into this personally to see where things may have gone wrong.

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Wow, personally I think a ton of people (including myself) would have really loved this if it had gone through as intended. Kind of a shame now though with most loot just being handed out in any instance you ever do :/

Feels like the Erebor FA crisis all over again....

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Originally Posted by Verizal

Incomparable (Teal) Gear
- All final chests have a chance to pull from a unique list of incomparables that is relevant to one or more of your potential roles. When I say unique list, I mean that no two instances should have the same potential loot, and you should not see a single piece of gear in more than two instances. For example:

Instance 1 -
Shoulder
Ring

Instance 2 -
Chest
Feet

Instance 3 -
Necklace
Feet

The reason behind this is that I did not want to provide the potential for all stat groupings in a single area of PvE (Instances), and instead wanted players to explore as many areas of content as possible. For instance, a Burglar looking for a heavy crit build might be able to get crit-heavy boots from instances, but only a physical mastery-heavy chest piece. To get the crit-heavy chest piece, they may need to resort to reputation or warband lootboxes. If I were going to keep incomparable rewards completely unique, given the number of instances, it would mean that most spaces would only typically have one reward and thus be less meaningful to run once the drop was received. By keeping unique lists, however, I can at least assure that all instances maintain a chance of being run, and one is not overshadowed by another simply because it is easier to reach the last chest.

- Challenge chests should contain a pull from all of the potential last chest rewards for all classes. Unlike other chests, this loot will be opened up to the fellowship as a whole. I will be looking into reasons why this might not be dropping.

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This still isn't making complete sense to me, maybe Verizal or someone who does understand this can clarify further.

Are you saying that for example the "greater steadfast pocket of protection" should only drop from 1 or 2 total instances of all the 37 (by my count) scaled instances in the game? the first half of this quote says yes, but the second half makes it sound more like only a few instances will drop pocket items, but that any instance that does drop a pocket item could drop any of the various 'teal' pocket items that fit with my classes potential roles.

Finally, the challenge chest thingy, I can say that not a single teal has come up for roll/pass from a challenge chest. some further clarification though, is the group roll that should be happening a random item that can drop from the last chest in that specific instance, or ANY last chest loot item from any instance?

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Originally Posted by Verizal

In regards to stat bloat and ease of instance running, we do realize that more balance is required, and do not intend to leave things in their current state.

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Aaand I almost re-subscribed. Glad to know that I'll soon be back to being unable to enjoy 90% of the end-game content because I don't have an infinite pool of prospective fellows available 24/7. Maybe one of those years I'll even be able to do a raid!

How about just leaving Tier 1 on "easy mode" and bumping up the others? Now that'd be neat.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

This still isn't making complete sense to me, maybe Verizal or someone who does understand this can clarify further.

Are you saying that for example the "greater steadfast pocket of protection" should only drop from 1 or 2 total instances of all the 37 (by my count) scaled instances in the game? the first half of this quote says yes, but the second half makes it sound more like only a few instances will drop pocket items, but that any instance that does drop a pocket item could drop any of the various 'teal' pocket items that fit with my classes potential roles.

Finally, the challenge chest thingy, I can say that not a single teal has come up for roll/pass from a challenge chest. some further clarification though, is the group roll that should be happening a random item that can drop from the last chest in that specific instance, or ANY last chest loot item from any instance?

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In my example, you can replace the general "Chest" and "Feet" listings with a specific piece. So in the case of "greater steadfast pocket of protection", you should only ever see that specific piece drop from two instances as a particular class. If you were hoping for a dps-oriented pocket item, that would drop from two different instances.

Regarding the challenge chest, when functional, it should only be pulling from the list of items that could potentially drop in the last chest of that particular instance.

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Originally Posted by Verizal

In my example, you can replace the general "Chest" and "Feet" listings with a specific piece. So in the case of "greater steadfast pocket of protection", you should only ever see that specific piece drop from two instances as a particular class. If you were hoping for a dps-oriented pocket item, that would drop from two different instances.

Regarding the challenge chest, when functional, it should only be pulling from the list of items that could potentially drop in the last chest of that particular instance.

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thank you for the update, makes perfect sense now.

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Originally Posted by Verizal

When it comes to the rating to percentage ratio, adjustments were made, but it was not as drastic as I had imagined it would need to be, given the new stat groupings/allocations. We still do intend to do a full-on revision to how our caps are set up, but much of what you are seeing now will be addressed through further class revisions and adjustments to mobs that are 85+

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I'll trust you on that as I never wrote down my stats before U12, but the changes to ratio's seems so minute I've not noticed at all.

glad to hear this will under go more tweaking as time goes on :D HD might have come out rough but it's looking very hopeful everytime you guys tell us stuff ^_^

I too have never seen an incomparable (teal) drop from a challenge chest. What was the reason you decided to re-implement master loot/free roll type chests back into the game?

Also, I have noticed an incredibly high amount of loot dropping from classic 3 and 6 man instances. It's nice to have that carrot back in as part of the instance. It's also appreciated seeing a real reward for beating challenge mode on 6 mans (seals).

Finally, I hope you really take a look at 85+ mob and instance difficulty like I (think I) heard you hinting at in a previous post on this thread. I would like to see tier 2 challenges be challenging again.

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

I too have never seen an incomparable (teal) drop from a challenge chest. What was the reason you decided to re-implement master loot/free roll type chests back into the game?

Also, I have noticed an incredibly high amount of loot dropping from classic 3 and 6 man instances. It's nice to have that carrot back in as part of the instance. It's also appreciated seeing a real reward for beating challenge mode on 6 mans (seals).

Finally, I hope you really take a look at 85+ mob and instance difficulty like I (think I) heard you hinting at in a previous post on this thread. I would like to see tier 2 challenges be challenging again.

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The reason master loot/free roll was put back in was because we all asked for it ever since it was 'removed'. Groups/Raids were having people who already had 'gold cloak of x' obtaining them again and again while other members of the group could utilize them. To 'fix' this we asked for master loot back.

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

I too have never seen an incomparable (teal) drop from a challenge chest. What was the reason you decided to re-implement master loot/free roll type chests back into the game?

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I'd venture to guess this was in response to all the complaints of people running a 3/6/12 man instance and having none of your fellow/raid members get anything besides purples/LIXP/Relics.

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Originally Posted by Verizal

So I'll see if I can clarify a bit more as to how things should be working, just so everyone is on the same page. Regardless, I will be looking into this personally to see where things may have gone wrong.

Rare (Purple) Gear
- All chests in all instances will pull from the same pool of rare gear that is relevant to all of your classes potential roles (DPS/Tank/Heal). There are numerous options for each slot, so exact duplicates are possible, but should not be all that likely (I can't really speak for the wonders of probability however).

Incomparable (Teal) Gear
- All final chests have a chance to pull from a unique list of incomparables that is relevant to one or more of your potential roles. When I say unique list, I mean that no two instances should have the same potential loot, and you should not see a single piece of gear in more than two instances. For example:

Instance 1 -
Shoulder
Ring

Instance 2 -
Chest
Feet

Instance 3 -
Necklace
Feet

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Given that this is true, are you guys at Turbine releasing some type of list to help people out or is it incumbent upon the players to gather the requisite information?

It wouldn't even have to be something specific, just a general idea of what type of stuff is where.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

I'd venture to guess this was in response to all the complaints of people running a 3/6/12 man instance and having none of your fellow/raid members get anything besides purples/LIXP/Relics.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

The reason master loot/free roll was put back in was because we all asked for it ever since it was 'removed'. Groups/Raids were having people who already had 'gold cloak of x' obtaining them again and again while other members of the group could utilize them. To 'fix' this we asked for master loot back.

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Valid reasons, I had the same issue many times, but then why leave some items remote loot and only challenge chests free roll/master loot?

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

Valid reasons, I had the same issue many times, but then why leave some items remote loot and only challenge chests free roll/master loot?

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The purple/teal gear are all bind on equip. Gold loot is bind on acquire. That is the reasoning.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

The purple/teal gear are all bind on equip. Gold loot is bind on acquire. That is the reasoning.

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Are you sure there are lvl 95 gold class items from scaled classic instances?

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Are you sure there are lvl 95 gold class items from scaled classic instances?

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Honestly I don't know. I'm just saying the way it has been previously is the top gear was BoA and not BoE.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Honestly I don't know. I'm just saying the way it has been previously is the top gear was BoA and not BoE.

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i thought i saw in beta that the gold items had been removed and that might bring them back at a later date but anyone who still had them got to keep them

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Originally Posted by Stephen1981

i thought i saw in beta that the gold items had been removed and that might bring them back at a later date but anyone who still had them got to keep them

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I know gold items exist from bb platinum cashout but I'm not sure about the others. Now that you mention it I think you could be right though I seem to recall a discussion about them being gone from scaled instances with a possible readdition later.

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Originally Posted by Leo_Dan

Given that this is true, are you guys at Turbine releasing some type of list to help people out or is it incumbent upon the players to gather the requisite information?

It wouldn't even have to be something specific, just a general idea of what type of stuff is where.

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Yes, please see the incredible amount of work that went in to:

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/User...Item_Checklist

All for nothing now you have changed everything up again. It was fun running scaled instances in U10 to find out what loot drops where. Having to do it all over again in under 1 years time is just tedious.

just for the record Verizal, the way loot distribution is _supposed_ to work, is actually awesome! (in my opionion, obviously)

Now someone just needs to balance the instances so that running my loremaster in support mode is equally usefull to running it in DPS mode, I would be back to beeing a happy camper...

Ran quite a few 3-man CMs last night. irobar's peak, stoneheights, north cotton farm, hall of night, school

I didn't see much evidence of this 'guaranteed teal' from CM chests

pls reimplement alle the gold class-items from erebor scaled for 95

could look like this-->

http://s14.directupload.net/images/131127/qx75m8jv.jpg

for some players like me, its the only reason to run 3man/ 6man oder 12man inis

PLS PLS PLS

while we have the idem-Dev's attention here:

is it intentional that for many items, the stat for which the are named is higher in the rare (purple) then incomparable (teal) version?
for example: the potent resolute ring of fate (purple) has 93 fate, while the greater resolute ring of fate (teal) only has 62 fate (while having higher stats for everything else)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verizal

We still do intend to do a full-on revision to how our caps are set up, but much of what you are seeing now will be addressed through further class revisions and adjustments to mobs that are 85+

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Soo.. stat caps are coming back?

Did anyone in beta record a data set of instance drops by any chance?

Something like :-

Potent Dextrous Shoulderpads of Finesse dropped from Library challenge chest for a warden
Potent Dextrous Shoulderpads of Prowess dropped from Library challenge chest for a hunter
Greater Valourous Pocket of Finesse dropped from Library challenge chest for a champion

Instance	Class	Chest	Quality	Prefix	ItemSlot	Suffix
Library Library Library	Warden Hunter Champion	Challenge Challenge Challenge	Potent Potent Greater	Dextrous Dextrous Valourous	Shoulders Necklace Pocket	Finesse Prowess Finesse

We can then try working out instance grouping and itemslot allocations from the data if recorded.

with regard to the devs question about whether or not the challenge chest was indeed dropping the lot intended to be rolled on from the challenge chest, YES, this is working, HOWEVER only for the skirmish raid chests.

In BG, this is not the case, (same for sg).
BG: each boss drops two chests,(which one is challenge I don't know because I only do challenge)
chest 1: everyone gets 2-6 items ranging from bounty relics runes rare incomparable symbols and premium items such as remembrance stat tomes etc
chest 2: 1 bounty for each raid member, + 1-2 relics runes to be rolled on (###### right?)

my theory is that chest 2, (likely the challenge chest) was supposed to contain a number of incomparable items to be rolled on.

this occurs for all bosses in bg,

with regard to sg, this function s the same way except chest 1 is from gorothul, and chest 2 from demafear

(all the above done at t2) with challenge

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Originally Posted by Doom4435

with regard to the devs question about whether or not the challenge chest was indeed dropping the lot intended to be rolled on from the challenge chest, YES, this is working, HOWEVER only for the skirmish raid chests.

In BG, this is not the case, (same for sg).
BG: each boss drops two chests,(which one is challenge I don't know because I only do challenge)
chest 1: everyone gets 2-6 items ranging from bounty relics runes rare incomparable symbols and premium items such as remembrance stat tomes etc
chest 2: 1 bounty for each raid member, + 1-2 relics runes to be rolled on (###### right?)

my theory is that chest 2, (likely the challenge chest) was supposed to contain a number of incomparable items to be rolled on.

this occurs for all bosses in bg,

with regard to sg, this function s the same way except chest 1 is from gorothul, and chest 2 from demafear

(all the above done at t2) with challenge

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This is accurate, the challenge chest is only dropping runes and relics, no items what to speak of.... I can confirm this for challenge modes for school, library, and sword halls. We've run 48 sh challenges in the past 2 days and only one teal item has dropped and that was not from the challenge chest.

As for the guaranteed incomparable item from the challenge chest: We were doing Elendil in Annuminas yesterday and didn't get such an item from the challenge chest. However, we noticed that the chest didn't vanish after opening when it should be empty. So I suppose that the item may be in it, but the part of the distribution/roll is probably the buggy part.

Not exactly on topic, but has incoming healing been removed as a potential stat on gear? I haven't seen any item with it so far...

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Not exactly on topic, but has incoming healing been removed as a potential stat on gear? I haven't seen any item with it so far...

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I haven't seen eitheir.

And I also don't understand why the main stats are the same everywhere, with Vitality added on every item :
217 Main stat + 186 Vitality or 217 Vitality +186 Main stat, which are ~identical with main stat and Vitality close to 4000.

This will end up with nearly the same gear for everyone... :( unlike before where I could choose for example an earring with 150 Might + PM + critic without Vitality for DPS or an earring with Vitality/Morale only for tanking.

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Originally Posted by Castorix

And I also don't understand why the main stats are the same everywhere, with Vitality added on every item :
217 Main stat + 186 Vitality or 217 Vitality +186 Main stat, which are ~identical with main stat and Vitality close to 4000.

This will end up with nearly the same gear for everyone... :( unlike before where I could choose for example an earring with 150 Might + PM + critic without Vitality for DPS or an earring with Vitality/Morale only for tanking.

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This is intentional (confirmed during beta). Most likely to simplify future balancing when they don't have to account anymore for huge differences between "extreme" builds, and simplify itemization (see stats on EB rewards being identical for heavy/light classes). And tanks needed more primary stats for the threat revamp to work. With item level 176 glass cannon builds could reach close to 200% outgoing damage and capped outgoing healing (could be seen in EBs with upscaled 85 gear) while a "normal" 95 build would probably have a hard time reaching 120%. Same reason why class skills are mostly irrelevant in EBs compared to roles (at least for solo versions), it would have been impossible to balance properly.
And if you think it through, the huge bump in item level can be seen simply as a "forced" upgrade to the new scheme. I'm a bit surprised that apparently very few people have realized this yet.

Wait... do I get this right, the gold drops from the instances are gone instead of scaled, and the teal drops are vastly the same across all instances? There is no incentive to run the various instance clusters anymore?

If that is true, it is ridiculous. And a very clear sign that Helm's deep wasn't remotely finished when it went live. We know the class balance (balance between the classes, and the mobs) needs work. We know the battles need work, some quests are still disabled. And now we learn that the itemization for all the instance clusters just didn't happen and was replaced by one general loot table for all?

I was under the impression that taking my time to explore and then piece for piece upping my equip from the different instances would provide enough fun to carry me to some supposed spring update with areas and perhaps some instances. But dopping the same stuff everywhere doesn't provide this fun.

Of course there isn't much that can be done now, but PLEASE Turbine put all your effords into changing this situation as fast as possible, perhaps even make it possible to get a better system with 12.1

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Originally Posted by Grimdi

This is intentional (confirmed during beta). Most likely to simplify future balancing when they don't have to account anymore for huge differences between "extreme" builds, and simplify itemization (see stats on EB rewards being identical for heavy/light classes). And tanks needed more primary stats for the threat revamp to work. With item level 176 glass cannon builds could reach close to 200% outgoing damage and capped outgoing healing (could be seen in EBs with upscaled 85 gear) while a "normal" 95 build would probably have a hard time reaching 120%. Same reason why class skills are mostly irrelevant in EBs compared to roles (at least for solo versions), it would have been impossible to balance properly.
And if you think it through, the huge bump in item level can be seen simply as a "forced" upgrade to the new scheme. I'm a bit surprised that apparently very few people have realized this yet.

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Why did tanks need more primary stats for the system to work? The validity of the new threat system aside (I think its garbage), we tanks could have simply been given a 5 x threat multiplier instead of the 3 x multiplier we have now. The changes just make it harder to balance content now, since everyone regardless of class is going to enjoy a closer relative morale pool and mitigation value compared to past expansions, meaning vastly different class makeups will be able to survive in given roles, and things like lost threat will have far less problematic results.

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Originally Posted by Rasimir

Wait... do I get this right, the gold drops from the instances are gone instead of scaled, and the teal drops are vastly the same across all instances? There is no incentive to run the various instance clusters anymore?

If that is true, it is ridiculous. And a very clear sign that Helm's deep wasn't remotely finished when it went live. We know the class balance (balance between the classes, and the mobs) needs work. We know the battles need work, some quests are still disabled. And now we learn that the itemization for all the instance clusters just didn't happen and was replaced by one general loot table for all?

I was under the impression that taking my time to explore and then piece for piece upping my equip from the different instances would provide enough fun to carry me to some supposed spring update with areas and perhaps some instances. But dopping the same stuff everywhere doesn't provide this fun.

Of course there isn't much that can be done now, but PLEASE Turbine put all your effords into changing this situation as fast as possible, perhaps even make it possible to get a better system with 12.1

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You've misunderstood what Verizal has said. Everything here is made up by me, but should illustrate how the system works:
You're a champ, so you have the potential to win might items. There are 3 primary stat might earrings in the game at 95, 1 with a focus on crit, 1 with a focus on finesse, one with max morale. Each only drops from 2 classic instances, so to get the crit heavy one, you must run either School, or Fornost Fire. The Finesse one only drops in OD Wound Wing and Thorog Drake Wing, and the Morale one only GB Thadur and Inn of the Forsaken. When looking to upgrade Gloves with primary might stats, you must run Skirmish Raids, with Might Glove A only dropping in Gondamon, Glove B in Tuckborough and Necromancer's Gate, and Glove C only Rescue in the Rift. When looking for primary might Pockets, you must run the various Epic battles.

My guess is there are a lot more than 3 different options for each inventory slot with a focus on whatever your main stat is, so there are likely more than 5 or 6 instances you can run if you are looking for a might earring, but if you see someone with an earring with 217 might, 185 vit, 700 crit, 800 finesse and want that exact item, there will only be 1 or 2 places you can go to get it.




Its disappointing to see some stats seemingly no longer being available on items (Incoming Healing, Resistance, Mitigations, as far as I can tell) as classes are being further pushed into cookie cutter builds, since everyone who takes the time to fully gear out is going to wind up in a very narrow window of main-stat and vitality, since every single item has one of two values for each of these stats. Having done the math from the teal values I've seen it doesn't seem like it will take too much effort for people to cap EVERY relevant stat, and bring the ratings DEEP into the diminishing returns end of uncapped stats (phys mastery, finesse, crit D).

While stat bloat, stat homogenization, and push towards cookie cutter builds is problematic, now that I've run a number of instances at 95 I'm confident in saying that instance difficulty is bugged in its own right, independently of 'overpowered' freep stats. At lvl 85 I could solo a decent number of Skraids, and while it took a while and specific LT combinations were flat out unbeatable. At 85 in order to do this I had to go with an extremely tanky build with capped mitigations, near-capped avoidances, 25% incoming healing, and an extremely defensive skill rotation for many pulls. I 'tanked' some skraids for a kin run yesterday. By kin run I mean 4-6 of us total, NO healers of any type and all of us at best moderately geared. Personally I was wearing 6 pieces of lvl 85 Hytbold DPS armour (2 fist, 4 spear) and almost entirely purple 95 jewelry with an agility/crit/finesse focus, rather than vitality/bpe, dps LIs with no avoidance or healing legacies and mastery/crit relics. My BPE was just over half of what it was at 85, my mitigations far from capped, 0 incoming healing rating, very low crit defense, and my morale pool only about 2k higher than back at 85. Despite my character being significantly weaker in nearly every statistic relevant to tanking, it was embarrassingly easy, even with previously 'impossible' LT combinations to solo (Defender of the Vile and Brothers of Destruction, Defender and Snapper, etc). Heck, I Face-tanked Brothers of Destruction and a Leadfoot Brute at once, and never really feared dying, without a healer. This is a problem far bigger than even at 85 when things were pretty easy to begin with. I should also mention while I was specced determination, I had roughly 30 points in Determination and 30 points in Recklessness, so I was far from traited for pure survivability.

All of this really begs the question: If loot quality is basically boring junk, the biggest challenge in instances even when ignoring the basic mechanics of fights is staying awake, and PvMP is even worse than PvE, why do I still log in? I guess this is just a tribute to the brilliance of the class Graalx2 created.