[Vales Spoilers] After 12 years, LOTRO finally crossed a lore bridge I can't follow

In a quest called "The Stolen Gift", Radagast recounts the origin of both the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. The latter actually turn into giant spiders while fighting you.

Once there was a group of Men who respected the land and nature, and saw the beauty of the mountains and the vales between them. I was unlike them, of course, being a Wizard, but I did see some of myself in them. More than a little! I gave them a gift: the gift of skin-changing. I taught them how to use it, and as they practiced the art they became closer to nature. They were a good people, and they remained so to this day: the Beornings of the Vales of Anduin. These are your forbears, [Beorning PC]. Ha! This is not a time for jesting, forgive me! But still it is true. Your ancestors mastered the art of skin-changing, and used it to make safe the mountains and the valleys, and I was most glad for them.

But other Men became jealous of the gift. They captured one of the skin-changers, and tortured him, and in the end he gave away the secret art. These evil ones were driven mad by this new power, a power they were never intended to wield. These were the Gauredain, men of the wolf, and the Ungoledain, men of the spider.

I should have been more careful, [Beorning PC]. I repented of the gift, for once it was stolen I could do nothing. Now the Woodmen face a peril of my own creation. We must find their encampment and protect them from the leader of the Ungoledain.

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.


This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

It was strange. Would have been far cooler IMO had it been a relative of Beorn, a brother say, who went all dark and nasty. Maybe he could change into something else, like a nasty big wolf if they didn’t want it to be bears.

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Originally Posted by Forohir

In a quest called "The Stolen Gift", Radagast recounts the origin of both the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. The latter actually turn into giant spiders while fighting you.

Once there was a group of Men who respected the land and nature, and saw the beauty of the mountains and the vales between them. I was unlike them, of course, being a Wizard, but I did see some of myself in them. More than a little! I gave them a gift: the gift of skin-changing. I taught them how to use it, and as they practiced the art they became closer to nature. They were a good people, and they remained so to this day: the Beornings of the Vales of Anduin. These are your forbears, [Beorning PC]. Ha! This is not a time for jesting, forgive me! But still it is true. Your ancestors mastered the art of skin-changing, and used it to make safe the mountains and the valleys, and I was most glad for them.

But other Men became jealous of the gift. They captured one of the skin-changers, and tortured him, and in the end he gave away the secret art. These evil ones were driven mad by this new power, a power they were never intended to wield. These were the Gauredain, men of the wolf, and the Ungoledain, men of the spider.

I should have been more careful, [Beorning PC]. I repented of the gift, for once it was stolen I could do nothing. Now the Woodmen face a peril of my own creation. We must find their encampment and protect them from the leader of the Ungoledain.

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.


This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

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In u23, we don't have any Ungoledain changing into spider, now in u24 we have Ungoledain changing into spider. I don't see any problems introducing some Gauredain changing into wolf in u25 or u26.

May be not anyone can get that gift, only few people can do it. We don't have thousands of beornings, ungoledains or gauedains in the game.

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy :)), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

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Originally Posted by Dosiere

It was strange. Would have been far cooler IMO had it been a relative of Beorn, a brother say, who went all dark and nasty. Maybe he could change into something else, like a nasty big wolf if they didn’t want it to be bears.

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if thats the case we should have seen them changing but this has never happen in game yet.........
since we met them 1st time at the west shores of evendim, they had a company of wolves and dressed in wolf skins but never changing into a wolf!
nope this thing is totally wrong!
from the books i understand that beornings are a race of men, very old ofcorse, that has the gift of skinchanging
it is written that they r only a few! nothing is written about skinchanging is a skill that can be tought by a wizard!
if the wizards having powers like this the books will had a totally different approaching!
why not more of the free people havent learned the skinchanging n having more posibilities against the orc, warg, etc. ???
no guredain are not skinchangers n this approach is totally wrong n really against the lore!!!
good job ssg...... :(

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Originally Posted by Scenario

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy :)), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

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anyway wolfmen or spidermen or any kind of Xmen is totally wrong n against the lore!!!
Tolkien is writting only about the beornings as skin changer
basically he is writting only about Beorn!
tbh i dont have a prob if you introduse an enemy skin changing race,
but i really dont like this Radagast tought them the skill of skinchanging!
why only into bear??? why not a mountain lion, a deadly snake? even into a dragon?
pick n animal, there r plenty of them in the world......
if this is a skill why not changing into anything anyone wants???
even the evil men, only wolfmen n spidermen tribes???
again, Radagast teaching the skill is totally out of lore!

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Originally Posted by Valakircka

from the books i understand that beornings are a race of men, very old ofcorse, that has the gift of skinchanging
it is written that they r only a few! nothing is written about skinchanging is a skill that can be tought by a wizard!

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Originally Posted by Valakircka

again, Radagast teaching the skill is totally out of lore!

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"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

I don't know. I can see the point of it. Look at our own history. The Egyptians of today bear little resemblance to the Egyptians of 3000 years ago. Their language and as I understand many customs are different than they were. As far as the different animals, look at Native American lore. Many tribes felt a bond with a certain animals. Maybe Beorn's line were a tribe like that originally. They identified with the bear, so why would they change into anything else?

Going with the assumption that the Gauredain were a similar tribe that identified with the wolf. I can see how not everyone in the tribe could master this ability. They could very easily become a sort of worshiper or priesthood of those that could. That priesthood spread as far as Forochel, but the main tribe stayed near the place of their origin. Tribes tend to guard their secrets pretty heavily. Especially if it gives them an advantage over other tribes.

The wizards tended to work against Sauron in their own ways. It makes a certain sense that Radagast would be the one to teach someone skin walking. LOL

Now, that being said, I still think the Beornings should never have been brought to the game. I just think in this case, the lore may not be a shaky as it sounds. But what do I know. I'm just zis guy. ;)

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

"Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue;

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I always thought that meant he was good at jigsaws. :)

Anyway. On a serious note, I'm in the "it's stretching" (almost to the Moon, stretching) camp. Did a serious "Hmm... ok." when I got to this bit in the story. I'll just pretend it didn't happen and carry on regardless.

Some things are best left unexplained, I find.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

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MoL, that's a BIG stretch of the lore. I have to be with the OP on this one, this is just a lore bridge too far. Since "... birds are especially his friends." does that mean that Radagast will grant us Giant Eagle flying mounts as well?

Imagine playing alongside Rune-keepers for 11 years and thinking this paragraph of quest text is the last straw. :rolleyes:

I saw this when reading the quest text, and this surprised me the most in the vales, I have to agree its a bit of a lore stretch, but see nothing wrong with it either, as we know almost nothing of Beorn's origin and nothing about other skin changers and very little is known about what they can do. though I don't think its something that can be learned.

the quote "a master of shapes and changes of hue" the way i read that is that's Radagast as a wizard who was sent to middle earth along with 4 other Istar, i don't think he can just give out his powers to learn. also Radagast just simply knows about beast and herbs just like anyone else but way more learned in it, and perhaps transform into a beast? who knows. however i can kind of see him teaching them how to speak or know the language of Beast understanding them.

yes a bit of a lore stretch in the story but still fun anyway.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

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But put into context by what Beorn says in the Hobbit when asked about Radagast by Gandalf....

“Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,” said Beorn.

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

I agree... Beornings were as big a mistake as rune keepers but they're here now and there isn't any going back but stop stretching these abominations to the max...

what next?

Are we going to come across all the skin changers whose skills mutated and find them all in "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters" ?

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me? :D

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

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Originally Posted by Elflord410

Since "... birds are especially his friends." does that mean that Radagast will grant us Giant Eagle flying mounts as well?

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If I wanted to give you Eagle mounts, I wouldn't have to point to this line to do it. It's not the fact of flying on Eagles that I find troubling, since that happens in the books more than once; it's that the Eagles are noble, sentient creatures, and they don't come at your call. I would much prefer a system where Eagles come and interrupt the thing you're doing, picking you up and carrying you away to help THEM with the important thing they want done, regardless of what you have to say about it. Now that's an Eagle mount I can get behind!

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Originally Posted by Altair6

I always thought that meant he was good at jigsaws. :)

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This is also a good explanation for "master of shapes," and I wish it would come into play! Maybe Radagast and Grimbeorn can take some time out to assemble a jigsaw puzzle at the Beorninghus.

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

we know almost nothing of Beorn's origin and nothing about other skin changers and very little is known about what they can do.

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It's true. It's an intriguing space for expansion, which is exactly the sort of thing we designers love to poke at, and what we've done from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

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Beorn, noted conversationalist? I think Beorn is pretty well established as saying what he wants to say, when he wants to say it. He's not exactly overflowing with sentimentality.

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

If I wanted to give you Eagle mounts, I wouldn't have to point to this line to do it. It's not the fact of flying on Eagles that I find troubling, since that happens in the books more than once; it's that the Eagles are noble, sentient creatures, and they don't come at your call. I would much prefer a system where Eagles come and interrupt the thing you're doing, picking you up and carrying you away to help THEM with the important thing they want done, regardless of what you have to say about it. Now that's an Eagle mount I can get behind!

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We already have an Eagle stable-master in the Vales now. ;)

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Originally Posted by Forohir

I have no problem with Radagast being involved in the origin of the Beornings. Heck, I might even accept that there's an evil counter to the Beornings that changes into something else. But the above just makes no sense for several reasons:

1. If skin-changing is a skill that can simply be "taught" (whether willingly or because you're being tortured), then why don't more people know it than Beorn's literal family line? Why don't they teach it to the Wilderfolk, so they can defend themselves, or the elves?
2. If the Ungoledain learned the "secret art" and used it to turn into spiders, then why couldn't Beornings use it to turn into anything but bears? Why not Eagles, or otters, or boars, or any other animals?
3. Gauredain are called out here, and yet at no time have Gauredain ever been presented as skin-changers. No Gauredain has ever become a wolf in-game. This was always an impressive level of restraint and creativity Turbine/SSG showed. They got to have wolf-men without actually having werewolves.

For these primary 3 reasons, the above just doesn't make sense, even with itself.


LOTRO itself presents every Beorning as literally part of Beorn's family, which is consistent with the text in the Hobbit. They all look distinctly different from every other human, and they all look related, and playing as a Beorning in the Vales, every Beorning addresses you as a *blood relative*. But then Radagast makes it sound like anyone can learn, and that it can be into other animals besides bears. This just introduces a host of inconsistencies and questions.


Now I suppose one could say Ragadast gave the "gift" to Beorn, and it was passed down through his line (not through being "taught" but by being intrinsic in his bloodline), and at some point some sorcerers of Dol Guldur captured a Beorning and, by studying its fea/hroa discovered the secret of Radagast's gift, and figured out how to pivot it to spiders. I could probably accept that.


Still, at least when a human turns into a bear, they retain the same number of limbs/fingers/eyes/ears, whereas a spider you have to grow all sorts of new parts, including a butt-rope.

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I'd like to speak a word on the matter.

First of all, I'd like to point out that the way the lore decision SSG made on the subject of skin-changing is surprisingly Tolkien-ish. I dont know about the OP knowledge of the lores and mechanics on which Tolkien built his Legendarium, but we had some exemples that show that the path of "a gift a powerful being can give and that can be stolen" is really a Tolkienian feature.


As first exemple I want to quote the part of The Fall of Gondolin:

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly [...]; and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, "The Fall of Gondolin", p. 103

In this passage it is clear that there were peculiar things that could be taught to worthy beings (in this case from Manwe to the Great Eagles for the flying), gifts in the shape of spells or magics that could be passed to others. This quoted exemple is very similar to the one we had with the beornings, and the handling of the beorning being tortured so that they surrendered their "magic gift" is a really good scale down to the men weaknesses, while the Eagles never surrendered their gift.



The second exemple is in The Tale of Tinúviel:

So was that in the end weariness and hunger and fear prevailed upon that proud cat [...] to reveal the secret of the cats and the spell that Melko had entrusted to him; and those were words of magic whereby the stones of his evil house were held together, and whereby he held all beasts of the catfolk under his sway, filling them with an evil power beyond their nature [...]. When therefore he had told it Huan laughed till the woods rang, for he knew that the days of the power of the cats were over. [...] The magic of Melko was fallen from them.

----J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, "The Tale of Tinúviel", p.28-29

In this passage we read that Morgoth had entrusted the cats with some kind of magic-wordish gift, making them like werecats of great power, and that this gift could in the end be revoked.

A similar exemple is written in the Silmarillion that we all know, when the later version Lúthien crushed the tower of Sauron upon the Tol Sirion just by knowing the magic words that were bound to the soveregnity over the place. (The Silmarillion, "Of Beren and of Lúthien", p. 227 approx)

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All of this as introduction to say that the choices about the "Radagast gifting the skin-changing magic ability" is really Tolkienish on various, deep levels, and that me, as a proud Tolkien-lover, I love the deep knowledge the quest designer had of the "Tolkien's ways to lore". ;)

After this introduction, I could explain to myself very well about the matter around the Gauredain and the Ungoledain. They tried to steal the Gift (spell?) entrusted to the beornings, and they succeded.
The quest (and Radagast) says that they were not thought to receive such power, and whatever characteristic Radagast found in the beornings with his "Istari Knowledge" such that he believed they could handle the power he was a master of (as quoted by MadeofLion), was it loyalty, goodness, courage, etc (all characters that in the Tolkien production have a bigger value than just "behaviours"), it's clear that those -edain had not. And as Radagast explains, this was the very source of their corruption.[/INDENT]



Now, with this quest line I could explain (after 9 years of playing) why the Gauredain and then the Ungoledain were in primis so tall and powerful, animal-tamers and kind of odd. Simply, being men and thus too weak to resist external powers not meant for them, they were corrupted and twisted.

-First of all I guess they run mad or very near to this, since they isolated from the world and their society is questionable at most and with they never had real purposes. Probably they were groups of men that were worshipping the animals they turned into, or they had some kind of religion around them, so that when they went mad but somehow acquiring that "gift", they deepened their worshippings and were able to turn into the animals they based their culture around, but being too deviated to wield the Power and control any other shape. The fact that we had no shape-changing prior to U24 is simply a technical limitation they now have overcome, and I'm happy with this :)

-Second they had physical changes, so that they could communicate with the animals they were nearer to and they grew stronger, taller, but hunchbacked and ugly (sorry for the bodyshaming -edain, nothing personal).

-Third, over time they lost part of their umanity and social behaviour, and this would explain why their presence and quest-lines are kinda out of place if those groups are considered simply as weird men.

Of course, the beornings could control their mental health upon receiving the gift because of the qualities Radagast found in them, but being men it's very unlikely one could shape the magic to turn into whatever animal he wants, and it's very improbable they could handle the very foundation of the spell in order to be able to tell it rightfully to others (like it was for the cats under Telvido, they were Werecats but only under the power of their prince, and not able to give away the power to others; they were under the spell influence but not able to shape it because of their "lesser" nature)



All of this said, after having some thoughs on the matter, I personally was amazed how deep knowledge of Tolkien had the person who designed this lore and how much respectful of the Tolkienian mood was all this web of relationships-explainations-subtle magic aimed to explain the old-created deviations of those men-tribes.

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Originally Posted by Forohir

This whole thing just seems poorly thought out. And I say this as someone who has totally bought into and praised all of Turbine/SSG's lore expansion in the past.

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This whole thing just seems too much well written, and I thanks the SSG for such an handling of the Tolkien's legacy ;)


--Duf of Ark

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Originally Posted by Turin347

First of all, I'd like to point out that the way the lore decision SSG made on the subject of skin-changing is surprisingly Tolkien-ish. I dont know about the OP knowledge of the lores and mechanics on which Tolkien built his Legendarium, but we had some exemples that show that the path of "a gift a powerful being can give and that can be stolen" is really a Tolkienian feature.

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See: Prometheus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

Thanks for burying this thread... it took me an age to find it again... I suppose there is a way to search for threads on which you have commented or track them but not that I know without subscribing and that, if it turns out to be a juicy thread can batter my inbox.

I guess it is in its correct spot due to potential spoilers though.

Back to point... I don't much care for the new plot lines probably because I think the whole concept of skin changers was a mistake by Tolkien.
Far too much "Fantastic story magazine" for my liking, although it could have been this plotline that inspired a lot of that series 13 years after the Hobbit was released.

I think Tolkien' open displays of magic and magical'ness was kept to a nice simmering under the hood limit with a few poor exception and this possibly the worst.

So, for me to expand on this is not my cup of tea... Sorry

Please lets get back to the good old kill 10 bears for their hides and post them to the Beorninghus :D

I finally finished the Vales last night (minus dailies), including the full Ungoledain quest line, and I love it even more than I did from just the quest text. The cloud of poison transformation from man to spider is gorgeous (much better than even the Beorning animation tbh). If someone could find the time to go back and change the Gauredain quests and animations to make them skin-changers, that would be amazing.

SIDEBAR: The Ungoledain, being somewhat copied from Gauredain code, still use Gauredain vocal sounds. The wolf howl when using certain skills is particularly immersion-breaking.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me? :D

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

MoL

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OP here. Thank you for the response, MoL. I appreciate it. And I have always been a fan of the LOTRO team's restrained creativity while "filling in the corners" of the lore. I was one of those early players who theorized Mordirith's identity, based on the subtle hints given, and was thrilled when those theories were confirmed.

I also heartily agree that connecting Radagast with the origin of the Beornings makes perfect sense.

I think this particular bit of lore chafed me (and others in my roleplaying guild) because it seemed to trivialize the skin-changing ability of the Beornings -- specifically the bit about the Ungoledain torturing a Beorning until he essentially told them how to skin-change. The way Radagast words it makes it sound very simple, and then it opens up all the questions in my post: Why don't the Beornings change to other animals? Why don't they teach people outside of Beorn's line? It just didn't seem consistent with the rest of the world, even as it is represented in-game.

Your statement that "I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed" is much more palatable to me. I also like the notion you gave that Radagast gave the gift to some sort of proto-Beornings, rather than Beorn. And perhaps those proto-Beornings did change into a variety of animals, perhaps with each individual or bloodline having a specific animal. But then, for one reason or another, Beorn was the only one to survive into the latter Third Age, and he was "tuned" to being a bear. That's all he could become, and that's all his descendants could become.

All that being said, I really do not like the idea of retconning Gauredain into being skin-changers, for a couple reasons:

1. We're 12 years into the game. It's a bit late to be making such a significant change to such an iconic original enemy -- one of LOTRO's best, IMHO.
2. The roleplaying community has often incorporated Gauredain into plotlines, because they are a neat and interesting enemy. And never have they been thought of as skin-changers.
3. Having so many Gauredain (and Ungoledain for that matter) as skin-changers trivializes Beornings and their special uniqueness in the world.
4. I think the Gauredain are a more interesting villain without skin-changing. They feel more true to Tolkien, to me. But that's just my opinion.

I'd love it if the quest text for "The Stolen Gift" could get an update, perhaps incorporating some of your addition thoughts and comments, just to make it a bit less literal and a bit more vague/mystical, leaving some more room for interpretation and speculation. As it stands, it comes off as very prescriptive and a bit anti-climactic, especially to a Beorning character.

Also, in the questline, Radagast "withdraws" the gift of skin-changing from the Ungoledain leader, but not the other Ungoledain. It was quite confusing. How did he withdraw it? Why did he do so to only the leader?

Thanks again for reading and responding! LOTRO is an absolute treasure and you've done amazing work these past 12 years. My post title might be a bit hyperbolic (I am fond of my Beorning RP character), and the rest of the Vales zone is fabulous IMO.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

Not addressing your specific concern (because I am not the story or lore guy :)), but a piece of LOTRO Trivia:

- the Gauredain were originally intended to be able to be skin changers when we introduced them WAY WAY back in Evendim. Unfortunately, at the time, we did not have the tech necessary to pull it off so instead they were introduced as a group of Wolf-worshippers.

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I'm really glad that happened -- these wild men and beast cults would be among the more common humans on Arda at the time. My only problem with the Gauredain is not lore, but that they're too big.

Werewolves are part of Tolkien lore. He mentioned them in the Silmarillion as serving Morgoth and Sauron in the First Age, and I understand there are additional references in Christopher Tolkien's Grey Annals. Iron Crown Enterprises realized this and made use of werewolves in the MERP material they developed for the PnP RPG.

I just played through this content (or at least the beginning of it, centered around the Ungoledain camp south of Rhosgobel) and I did find it a little jarring to suddenly have this group being placed front-and-center to the story without any former mention of them. At one point the quest text reads like you know about these Ungoledain when speaking to the town leader and I don't remember seeing anything about them beforehand. I love MadeofLions' work and I can accept the lore reasons behind the existence of the spider shape-shifters but maybe I missed something or did something out of order but it felt like the whole introduction to them was a bit rushed and could have been... fleshed-out... a little more.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I just played through this content (or at least the beginning of it, centered around the Ungoledain camp south of Rhosgobel) and I did find it a little jarring to suddenly have this group being placed front-and-center to the story without any former mention of them. At one point the quest text reads like you know about these Ungoledain when speaking to the town leader and I don't remember seeing anything about them beforehand. I love MadeofLions' work and I can accept the lore reasons behind the existence of the spider shape-shifters but maybe I missed something or did something out of order but it felt like the whole introduction to them was a bit rushed and could have been... fleshed-out... a little more.

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There's a brief quest line with them in Ered Mithrin too. That may be what they're referencing.

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Originally Posted by gildhur

There's a brief quest line with them in Ered Mithrin too. That may be what they're referencing.

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That's probably it. Having not done that zone yet I had no idea about the Ungoledain.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

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i am not a native english talker but as far i can understand hue is all about colors
being a master of shapes and changes of hue does not mean changing into something completely different
if you r using the phrase and since your introdusing radagast as a teacher of skin changing why he does not changing????
again, n you cant change my mind on this, if this skill was teachable the books would had been totally(with caps on) different!

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

But put into context by what Beorn says in the Hobbit when asked about Radagast by Gandalf....

“Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,” said Beorn.

Not exactly the way one would talk about the person who had given his lineage what he had if this is to be believed...

I agree... Beornings were as big a mistake as rune keepers but they're here now and there isn't any going back but stop stretching these abominations to the max...

what next?

Are we going to come across all the skin changers whose skills mutated and find them all in "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters" ?

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exactly!
what i find funniest (!)
is that those spidermen were having wolves as pets begore the vale update n if i recall they still had for some days till 1st hotfix
now they still howling like the wolves........... :D :D :D
seems like Radagast did not tought them very well, maybe he is not a master after all :D

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me? :D

Our stock in trade has almost always been to find gaps in the text of LotR (and the Hobbit!) where we can find interesting places to put story -- consider the tiniest mentions of Angmar or Forochel, from which we crafted entire storylines! Radagast being friendly with the Beornings, living in this part of the world, being a Wizard whose powers include "master(y) of shapes" who is noted for his kinship with beasts... I find the possibility pretty compelling. This isn't to say, "Ah ha! We figured it out! This is the TRUE SECRET ORIGIN!" Instead, this is just the sort of connection that we've enjoyed exploring since the very beginning. I'd have to go back and look more closely at the quest, but my understanding isn't that Radagast taught the art of skin-changing to Beorn himself, but rather to a distant and forgotten forebear (wink!) that led eventually to the passing-down of the skill to Beorn and Grimbeorn. I prefer to think of the art as a mostly involuntary skill, and whatever trick the Ungoledain learned from their captive would just be the last 1% of what they needed -- surely their dark and corruptive arts brought them most of the way. Radagast might be beating himself up a little more than he deserves, but he's a well-meaning sort and feels badly about it.

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and we love you for the great work you r doing with those tiniest mentions of places!
guys the epic story is great n the journey to mordor is a long one, but side stories is what giving lotro the special spirit we all love!
i m pretty sure you r aware of many of us want to see as much as possible from lotr earth!
nope i dont want to have an eagle mount i leave them as they are!
but pretty plz you dont need to strech the lore that much ..........
skin changers are only a few, i really cant look at those wolf n spider men thinking them as skin changers tought by Radagast............
i will move on my lotro life forgeting their existance ...........

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

The various quests involving Radagast and the Ungoledain aren't my quests, but I do love diving into discussions like this so why let that stop me?

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Can you check with the team and see if there's a fix coming for the Ungoledains' usage of the 'wolf howl' sounds rather than something 'spidery'?

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Originally Posted by Valakircka

being a master of shapes... does not mean changing into something completely different

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Does it not? Mastery over shapes sure sounds like you have control over shapes to me. And the "if Radagast could do this he WOULD have!" argument holds little water for me -- Radagast's role in Fellowship of the Ring is pretty small; who's to say what the extent of his powers might have been if he had a more central part to play? If Gandalf tells us that Radagast has "mastery over shapes," I'm inclined to believe him -- but maybe he was talking about his skill at finishing jigsaw puzzles, as indicated upthread. :D

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Originally Posted by auximenes

Can you check with the team and see if there's a fix coming for the Ungoledains' usage of the 'wolf howl'

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Just to be safe I'd recommend filing a bug. They tell me it's a sound script issue, and those scripts can be pretty complicated, so sending in a bug to remind them wouldn't hurt.

MoL

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Originally Posted by Valakircka

i am not a native english talker but as far i can understand hue is all about colors
being a master of shapes and changes of hue does not mean changing into something completely different
if you r using the phrase and since your introdusing radagast as a teacher of skin changing why he does not changing????
again, n you cant change my mind on this, if this skill was teachable the books would had been totally(with caps on) different!

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Does it not? Mastery over shapes sure sounds like you have control over shapes to me. And the "if Radagast could do this he WOULD have!" argument holds little water for me -- Radagast's role in Fellowship of the Ring is pretty small; who's to say what the extent of his powers might have been if he had a more central part to play? If Gandalf tells us that Radagast has "mastery over shapes," I'm inclined to believe him -- but maybe he was talking about his skill at finishing jigsaw puzzles, as indicated upthread. :D

MoL

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I love it how you get so passionately irked when someone questions your judgement in the way you interpret the meaning of something which is in it self fantasy or other worldly. Or are you the kind of person who doesn't like being challenged?

Anyway, I think it is getting difficult now for the team to seek out decent stories from the directions they are choosing to go. Tolkien kept certain aspects deliberately ambiguous and rightly so. Should we keep stepping on his shoes and second guessing things that he definitely thought was best to leave alone.

This could be solved by heading back to safe areas of the story... lets forget a big battle with another of Tolkiens mysteries (Shelob) and head back to the Shire.. South Farthing and Scouring will do very nicely. No complicated and convoluted slights of hand, just good old back to where we all started to protect our spiritual homes... I'm personally sick of helping folks in far off lands when Sharkey and his bandits are clearly heading to if not running wild and smoking all my weed stores.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

I love it how you get so passionately irked when someone questions your judgement in the way you interpret the meaning of something which is in it self fantasy or other worldly.

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Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Or are you the kind of person who doesn't like being challenged?

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Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Anyway, I think it is getting difficult now for the team to seek out decent stories from the directions they are choosing to go.

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I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Tolkien kept certain aspects deliberately ambiguous and rightly so. Should we keep stepping on his shoes and second guessing things that he definitely thought was best to leave alone.

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And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

This could be solved by heading back to safe areas of the story...South Farthing and Scouring will do very nicely.

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Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

;)

I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it. :)

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

... before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth ...

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Nice :cool:

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative.

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respectfully, i disagree.

it's a space for others to tell a story - even more, an interactive one that changes with input. i think he'd respect people telling the stories they want to hear.

whether he would agree with the medium is another matter - he clearly thought some progress was going too far. on the other hand, (some) variety in cultural identity exists in his own work, and bringing people together is a strong theme, so if he were born today, he may well have an appreciation for how far we've come that he simply couldn't in his own life.

just my thoughts on the matter, but the opinions of our predecessors on matters they haven't experienced may not always be as clear cut as we might feel comfortable thinking them to be.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)

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Me too! ME TOO! :)

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

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Speaking of Scouring of the Shire, would love to see Trouble at Tuckborough skirmish woven into that story at a proper place.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)



Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.



I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.



And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.



Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

;)

I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it. :)

MoL

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Though what i am bout to say has nothing to do but, ive talking to a few people and streamers and stuff that sometimes it feels like you guys say something like hey a new class! then no no not yet, like it feels you guys at SSG are little off-edged or don't know entirely what everyone wants like 1 update may have 3-4 instances while another may give out 200 quests and no instances and my thought would be maybe an ingame and forum poll to see what people want so you have a less of a chance of not getting everyone heard or those who feel that unheard can be heard. Like you don't want someone who never done or attempted a t2 raid speak about on forums and their voice is heard and no hard raids while vice versa that the raiders choose what updates are, IDK , but I think showing what your guys ideas are and seeing what we the players who play lotro think of updates and upcoming updates would be beneficial to lotro now and moving forward into (i hope) long future.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

...I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth...

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Objection! Calls for speculation as to how one author's fantasy realm is used as a verb indicating transport to another author's fantasy realm.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise.

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Objection! Argumentative.

:D Sorry, MoL. I just couldn't help myself when you played the lawyer card.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth

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Interestingly enough, WoW's Game Director Ion Hazzikostas used to be a lawyer too before he went into the game industry. And you made Narnia into a verb. Hahaha. That's like Professor Corey making Rivendell into one for the spectacular way he used to fly off bridges near the Last Homely House. :D

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire

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/snip

You know I have theories as to how you lot plan on doing that, right? I wonder if I'll get you miffed about it this time like you did when I'd guessed (correctly) how you'd do the End of the Ring in that interview months before Mordor came out. LOLOLOLOLOL

Drood.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

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I agree, I love the stories that been made in recent years, they are fun as always.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

;)

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I have some ideas of how that might turn out. can't wait till we get there, it should be fun, and since I'm a hobbit, i except to be in battle! :)

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

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Agree! Rohan was a bit of a low point, I think, but Minas Tirith and forward has been fantastic. The instanced way you used Denethor and the palantir was breathtaking, the Gothmog reveal had me yelling at my screen, and the power vacuum storyline in Mordor was lots of fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.

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Yes! Games that follow the exact storyline of the original IP, even an IP as compelling as LotR, are boring. The entire point of the richness of the worldbuilding of Tolkien's mythos is to explore it.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

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I for one can't wait to bring my High Elf Captain to help lead the Hobbits take back their homes in the fully instanced new Shire zone. ;)

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.
MoL

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I have to agree on this one. The Vales alone was some of the best story telling I have played through.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)

MoL

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Hey, hands off.... thats mine..... @Cordovan ------ please make it so... I too would like that title. :D

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Hey, hands off.... thats mine..... @Cordovan ------ please make it so... I too would like that title. :D

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Hey Cordovan... thanks a lot.... that made my day.... :D

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Hey Cordovan... thanks a lot.... that made my day.... :D

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Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

This thread brings to mind a quote from Tolkien himself:

“I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.”

I think that pretty much sums it up :)

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.


MoL

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Agreed mostly- and I love it too :D

I think though that we will ----------never---------- know how Tolkien would have responded to the MMORPG medium in particular. But I can make some educated guesses. I don't think he would have liked the raiding (unless everyone in the raid had to pretend they were characters from Beowulf when in his presence, though that would make in-raid communication very amusing!), the modern-holiday elements of festivals, the grinds, or any of that :D Why? Story. Story. Story. The story would have mattered to him, not his DPS or healing abilities. Of course, as I said, who knows?


I think its fair to say he would have loved the stories, some more than others, and that is undoubtedly so. Can we posit a -negative- reaction to the Stone of Wyrgende from Tolkien? I don't think so! I think he would have been THRILLED that someone went to the trouble of writing a Rohirric - Old English - Anglo-Saxon Lay in proper metre! I think the storytelling in the quest-text-boxes would have, at the least, intrigued his interest, because we know that it was the genre of -film adaptation- that Tolkien particularly rejected,.

Why? TEXT. Text. Text. Tolkien was probably -the author- of the Twentieth Century who most appreciated the value of the textual medium- of writing as a physical artifact comprised of words, and of the imagination to be cherished (i.e. the imagination drawing images from words). I think that, while technology such as computers would have irked him, the -language- and the -tone- of your storytelling............... that would have attracted him, the stories, the writing, the philology behind it. Erebor's storyline with Gandalf as a philologist? Wow- I can imagine Tolkien feeling impressed fairly easily there. LOTRO is a very interesting mixture of visual and textual medium's- yes, like a movie, there are the graphics, but like a book, the stories are not all recited by actors to you, you are reading the stories as you encounter them quest by quest.

Ironically, I think that the more your storytelling gets into the -history- of the zones, and lore such as this with Radagast and the Beornings, the more like Tolkien the writing gets.

The Amarthiel, Mordirith stuff? Not sure- perhaps. I certainly enjoyed it. Language history and the evolution of place-names? Oh YES! That's Tolkien's prime interest right there. The more stories delve into weaving the fabric of Middle-earth, as GRR Martin said- "the world as its own character," the more the game increases my interest even though the Ring was destroyed. The latest twists in the Black Book? Without spoiling anything: WOW. Just WOW. I did not see that coming. Now I have to run -four- characters up through it for............ reasons ;)

As potential negative reactions to........... the game filling-in blanks that Tolkien deliberately left as mysteries, while I respect that perspective (after all, its hard for me to imagine Tolkien's mysterious, huge Moria now that my mind can visit all of its levels and layers when not playing in-game- though I LOVE in-game Moria, so I'm conflicted there, hehehehe):

Well, then, might as well close the game right now if that's the consensus. Why? Because, well, what is there left to do? The Ring's destroyed, and so, if the Game is to continue, it -MUST- return to doing the things it did during Volumes I and II: filling-in-the-gaps. Forochel did this, so did Evendim, North Downs, Angmar, Enedwaith, Dunland, the parts of Moria Tolkien did not mention, the Watcher in the Water, the Foundations of Stone, Dol Guldor, Great River, the parts of Rohan Tolkien did not write about, the parts of Gondor Tolkien did not write about, the parts of Mordor Tolkien did not write about, Ered Mithrim, Iron Hills, and now, the parts of Vales of Anduin that Tolkien did not write about. 75% of the Game, in my estimation, is the Game filling-in gaps and solving mysteries left by Tolkien. Without aiming to solve such mysteries, there is literally nothing else to do. So, onward! I want to see the rest of Mordor, Rhun, Harad, Khand, Umbar, the "Great Nothing" between the Brown-lands and Rhun, the parts of Middle-earth beyond Western Gondor and south and west of current Eriador, and please-please-please complete the Great River Anduin, you are SOOOO close! Just one little stretch of river more up to Gundabad!!!.......... there is just so much more to explore and awesome lore to discover. Bring it on! :D

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

This thread brings to mind a quote from Tolkien himself:

“I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.”

I think that pretty much sums it up :)

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If you had read on in that letter to Milton you also get this ...

"It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic)."

I assume, as you leave no reason, that you think this above is him saying that the ambiguous areas of his work are fair game to be fleshed out? Could be but in the next paragraph of that very letter he warns about a parallel between the world he created and the creator and subsequent sub creators.... Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................


All good fun and games :D

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

I think Tolkien' open displays of magic and magical'ness was kept to a nice simmering under the hood limit with a few poor exception and this possibly the worst.

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Sorry to quote myself but on the point above there is a sentence that also has some bearing on the use of magic in his works..

"He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised."

I really think he left magic as we know it to a real minimum, in fact leaving it to the heavenly and therefore a more angelic theme than anything mortals could muster. As he states the real magic is the machine or a physical form of manifestation in a real sense....

was he a prophet? Not for me to say although I feel personally not..... but cannot through industry, one thing seem to be another? Or can one thing be completely now hidden from our eyes? The list of seeming magic'll'ness is endless... bring back a Victorian man and show him anything modern and he would scream Demon or Devilry.... Tolkien took the world he lived through and adapted it cleverly through his hated allegory for the story we now love....

Long story short, he would have hated this abomination of his Beorning..

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

If you had read on in that letter to Milton you also get this ...

"It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic)."

I assume, as you leave no reason, that you think this above is him saying that the ambiguous areas of his work are fair game to be fleshed out? Could be but in the next paragraph of that very letter he warns about a parallel between the world he created and the creator and subsequent sub creators.... Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................

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Interesting... I had not read the whole letter, but now have, and it is a great read. Serves me right for referencing a secondary rather than primary source... :)

I think what I am trying to say is that yes, there are areas Tolkien left ambiguous, and were he still alive today, he would have jealously guarded the work as the "God of his private creation". That's why there were no film adaptations in his lifetime. However, his intention was to create a mythology, not a history, and myths have always been adapted, embellished and adjusted with artistic licence, as they are myths, and not reality. Look how many adaptations there have been of The Odyssey, or The Iliad, or the trials of Hercules, or of the Legend of King Arthur or Robin Hood. The 90s movie of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves included an Arab character, played by Morgan Freeman, who fought at Robin's side. Was it in the original tales? No, but it was plausible that this could have happened as Robin had returned from fighting in the crusades. I think what Tolkien would have appreciated most of all is that people are so gripped by his mythology that they are engaged in passionate(ly irked) debate about it and want to add more to it.

So in my view, is it OK that the game invents its own lore to "flesh out" the story? Yes, as long as it it in keeping with the tone of the original material and there is a justification for it. Should it be accepted as canon? No, as it wasn't written by the author. Is everyone entitled to their opinion on the quality or plausibility of the content? Of course they are! I often cringe when people make suggestions that seem to go against the style of the material, but if I don't like it, then I can take it or leave it.

Mostly, I think this game is very faithful to the canon, barring the odd monster that seems out of place (looking at you, morroval and nameless :)), and mostly stays within the bounds of Tolkien's more grounded, "realistic" take on fantasy fiction. I see your view on the shape-shifting, but it just about works, I think, as long as you remember that nobody is trying to say it is canon.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Now surely we're not saying that Chris Pearson has become Morgoth and MoL has become Sauron.... but........................... ..................

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No, but now you think about it, it could explain a few things... :)

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

No, but now you think about it, it could explain a few things... :)

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Yes, I see, and we as players have become their minions.

:o

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

So in my view, is it OK that the game invents its own lore to "flesh out" the story? Yes, as long as it it in keeping with the tone of the original material and there is a justification for it.

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I totally agree and Shadows of Angmar is a masterpiece that should be written for none game players to read. Also Moria is great with actually in my opinion the same reasons you state. "Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things."

This shouldn't have spawned an early sequel to alien but it did and we complained at the time and they toned down the writing. Mirkwood was again a really great story line. Nothing too fantastical (as I remember)
Then good down to earth inbred tribal and regional fighting for a long time until we reach Mordor.... I can accept a little fantastic five in there as the sorcerers and the like would be doing some nasty things. However it didn't make great play even though the story just about made it.
Then we hit back into the land where we can breath some of the free air and boom.... fantasical hits us again. It really isn't required. It is a stretch to let us think that Radagast could have created the Beorning when remember what happened when the Valar Aulë created the dwarfs? Ilúvatar was kind of pissed and only intervened in their destruction when Aulë repented and showed faith by actually attempting to destroy his creation. So on what planet would he allow a Mair - Radagast to create essentially a species and then let that become corrupted.

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

I see your view on the shape-shifting, but it just about works

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The thing is when you get to the limit of your allowance, it has to be reigned in. Otherwise what next? Flying eagle taxis and a rope to climb into the most secretive sanctum in the whole of middle earth notwithstanding the far sightedness of possibly the greatest immortals to live within mortality.

Lets just make sure we make ourselves heard when it gets silly like this and hopefully the creative juices are honed back to good old classic story lines.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things."

This shouldn't have spawned an early sequel to alien but it did and we complained at the time and they toned down the writing. ...

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Yeah, I would have much preferred these creatures to look more like smaller Balrogs, or the Watcher - more daemonic than, as you say, the aliens that they became.

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

It is a stretch to let us think that Radagast could have created the Beorning when remember what happened when the Valar Aulë created the dwarfs? Ilúvatar was kind of pissed and only intervened in their destruction when Aulë repented and showed faith by actually attempting to destroy his creation. So on what planet would he allow a Mair - Radagast to create essentially a species and then let that become corrupted.

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It isn't that unrealistic. Saruman created the Uruk-Hai, and the Valar did nothing. They left it to the inhabitants of Middle-Earth to sort out. According to SSG, Radagast taught men the skill and they became Beornings. There isn't much difference, except the Beornings are a force for good, not evil. If this is accepted, then basically Radagast used his abilities to make the world a better place.

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

It isn't that unrealistic. Saruman created the Uruk-Hai, and the Valar did nothing. They left it to the inhabitants of Middle-Earth to sort out. According to SSG, Radagast taught men the skill and they became Beornings. There isn't much difference,

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Sorry and apologies but I disagree with this statement entirely. The Uruk-Hai which translated becomes,

Uruk = Orc (in Black Speech or Urko in Quenya) and
Hai = Folk

So, really if you look at the etymology of the world folk or folc in old english or old dutch you see it points to people or a man.

So, you can see how Tolkien used the word Hai to indicate a use of man.

In other words unlike the new race that we are expected to believe Radagast invented, these were just (I say just in the loose sense) a foul breeding of already existing races. And the Hai means that men were involved. So we have Olog-Hai - Troll and Man..... then we have Uruk-Hai - Uruk with men. (

Uruks were around much earlier and bred by Sauron long before Saruman corrupted them further by breeding with man. The original Uruks were just the larger of the orc tribes bred strongest to strongest until they had an orc which they called Uruk.

Tolkien really gave us a fantastic back story to ponder over.....

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Sorry and apologies but I disagree with this statement entirely. The Uruk-Hai which translated becomes,

Uruk = Orc (in Black Speech or Urko in Quenya) and
Hai = Folk

So, really if you look at the etymology of the world folk or folc in old english or old dutch you see it points to people or a man.

So, you can see how Tolkien used the word Hai to indicate a use of man.

In other words unlike the new race that we are expected to believe Radagast invented, these were just (I say just in the loose sense) a foul breeding of already existing races. And the Hai means that men were involved. So we have Olog-Hai - Troll and Man..... then we have Uruk-Hai - Uruk with men. (

Uruks were around much earlier and bred by Sauron long before Saruman corrupted them further by breeding with man. The original Uruks were just the larger of the orc tribes bred strongest to strongest until they had an orc which they called Uruk.

Tolkien really gave us a fantastic back story to ponder over.....

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Firstly, let me say it is really refreshing to have a sensible debate on a topic whilst staying so polite - thank you! Tolkien was a keen debater, so he would approve, I am sure!

To the point:

Beornings are not technically a new species - they are descendents of the Edain, like other Northmen. Gandalf says of Beorn: "Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale." Also, Tolkien, in letter 144, wrote: "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man." Any new spider-changing bad guys created by SSG could therefore also be accepted as still being men, but with the gift of skin-changing, like the Beornings.

Radagast is described by Gandalf as "a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue", so he may have had the power to bestow this gift.

Were there other skin-changers? Well Gandalf also says: "it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." So not all shape-changers were of a good nature. You could therefore have evil Beornings as a concept.

There have also been other examples of shape-changing in Tolkien lore:

• Thuringwethil - a shape-changer who could take the form of a bat

• Sauron - had been known to transform into a wolf

• Beren and Luthien: "By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him." There was magic here that changed their forms - Luthien could not have "flittered" had the bat just been a disguise.

So there was an "art" of skin-changing that could be learned, by various different kinds of beings. The grey area that I think we need to clear this up is: when did Beornings acquire the skill to change? Their ancestors, the Edain, didn't have the skill inherently, so where did it come from? The wizards didn't arrive in Middle-Earth until the Third Age, so if we accept SSG's interpretation, they have to have only acquired the skill no more than 2000 years before the events of the books.

So... my challenge to you is - can you prove the Beornings had the skin-changing power before TA 1000, when the wizards showed up? If so, you win the debate, my friend! :)

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

Firstly, let me say it is really refreshing to have a sensible debate on a topic whilst staying so polite - thank you! Tolkien was a keen debater, so he would approve, I am sure!

To the point:

Beornings are not technically a new species - they are descendents of the Edain, like other Northmen. Gandalf says of Beorn: "Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale." Also, Tolkien, in letter 144, wrote: "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man." Any new spider-changing bad guys created by SSG could therefore also be accepted as still being men, but with the gift of skin-changing, like the Beornings.

Radagast is described by Gandalf as "a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue", so he may have had the power to bestow this gift.

Were there other skin-changers? Well Gandalf also says: "it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." So not all shape-changers were of a good nature. You could therefore have evil Beornings as a concept.

There have also been other examples of shape-changing in Tolkien lore:

• Thuringwethil - a shape-changer who could take the form of a bat

• Sauron - had been known to transform into a wolf

• Beren and Luthien: "By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him." There was magic here that changed their forms - Luthien could not have "flittered" had the bat just been a disguise.

So there was an "art" of skin-changing that could be learned, by various different kinds of beings. The grey area that I think we need to clear this up is: when did Beornings acquire the skill to change? Their ancestors, the Edain, didn't have the skill inherently, so where did it come from? The wizards didn't arrive in Middle-Earth until the Third Age, so if we accept SSG's interpretation, they have to have only acquired the skill no more than 2000 years before the events of the books.

So... my challenge to you is - can you prove the Beornings had the skin-changing power before TA 1000, when the wizards showed up? If so, you win the debate, my friend! :)

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Just popped home before we are off following the sun for the weekend.... I will return :D

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)



Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.



I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.



And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.



Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?

;)

I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it. :)

MoL

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If the only for hobbit players is in play, then only humans should be allowed at helms deep since the only elf and dwarf were part of the fellowship. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

I love it how you get so passionately irked when someone questions your judgement in the way you interpret the meaning of something which is in it self fantasy or other worldly. Or are you the kind of person who doesn't like being challenged?

Anyway, I think it is getting difficult now for the team to seek out decent stories from the directions they are choosing to go. Tolkien kept certain aspects deliberately ambiguous and rightly so. Should we keep stepping on his shoes and second guessing things that he definitely thought was best to leave alone.

This could be solved by heading back to safe areas of the story... lets forget a big battle with another of Tolkiens mysteries (Shelob) and head back to the Shire.. South Farthing and Scouring will do very nicely. No complicated and convoluted slights of hand, just good old back to where we all started to protect our spiritual homes... I'm personally sick of helping folks in far off lands when Sharkey and his bandits are clearly heading to if not running wild and smoking all my weed stores.

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mate, personally talking always,
i stll trust the team in creating great side stories!
its the interesting side stories that kept us going all these years or would had been in mordor since 2008
seams that a big part of us has a different opinion about Gandalf's words meaning
still, i m repeating my self i know, if Radagast was a master of skin changing why he does not changing?
if Tolkien had meant the he really is, a master of shapes, then the books should had a totally different approach,
different characters, different heroes, different everything...........
having this "skill" and the abillity to transfer this knowledge, it looks to me as a huge powerfull mastery that is greater than Gandalf's and Saruman's putting them together!
here we r talking about selfcreating a different DNA! not a mind "magic" of Morgroth, who at least was the greater of the Vala, creator of wold, even n angly one........
the whole theme leaks from everywhere, its totally against lore n there is no deep thinking in it, creating the RK is nothing comparing with this!
its not a small thing those few written words, Radagast is transformed into a totally different person!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Despite the speed with which players can experience the game, we spend a lot of time thinking these things through while designing them -- just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean we take it any less seriously. Now I want a 'Passionately Irked' title, though. :)
Quite the opposite! I was a lawyer in my previous life, before I Narnia'd my way to Middle-earth, so arguing the merits of a decision is one of my very favorite hobbies. Combine that with game design challenges and with my obvious inability to stay away from the forums and you get a combination where I look forward to just these sort of discussions. They happen in the office too: we don't always agree with a particular direction and sometimes need to work things through with a compromise.
I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

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your story telling is great n its the reason, most of the older guys like me keep coming! plz keep on the good work!

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

And it's the age-old 'should there be a LotR game at all?' discussion, which the Professor would undoubtedly have answered in the negative. But I like videogames and I like Middle-earth, so I'm very glad there is. The various ambiguities left in the text have been our stock-in-trade since the very beginning, twelve years ago -- so it's not like this is a recent development, and I think we'll probably keep looking for interesting places to expand upon, as we've always done.
Only for hobbit players, I assume? To allow Elves and dwarves and other Big Folk to involve themselves in the Scouring of the Shire would seem to step on the Professor's shoes and undermine the whole point of the story, wouldn't it?;)
I'm being a little cheeky, but only because it's a useful demonstration of the sort of things we spend years thinking about. It's a complicated, tricky sort of thing, and I love it. :)
MoL

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Are you saying that you r leaving a big(caps on) part of the story out?????????????
nope i dont belive it ! you ll do it !!! one way or n other!!!
i see my self in a seriess of solo instances doing errands for the 4 hobbits running here n there in the shire! (like what you did with the attack on Pelenor fields)
the story havent even reached the midsummer day n the big marriage, we have enough time for the scouring, do as many shelbs you like, then the scouring n after this travel us wherever you like!

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

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With the exception of the incredibly shameless allegory of the Dale storyline, I agree. I think everything in Gondor up until the destruction of the ring was pure perfection, and Mordor was excellent as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valakircka

your story telling is great n its the reason, most of the older guys like me keep coming! plz keep on the good work!



Are you saying that you r leaving a big(caps on) part of the story out?????????????
nope i dont belive it ! you ll do it !!! one way or n other!!!
i see my self in a seriess of solo instances doing errands for the 4 hobbits running here n there in the shire! (like what you did with the attack on Pelenor fields)
the story havent even reached the midsummer day n the big marriage, we have enough time for the scouring, do as many shelbs you like, then the scouring n after this travel us wherever you like!

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I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that we have great side stories but have exception to ones that there really is no need for.

There was no need to have shape shifting bastardisations using not even a single sentence but a phrase within a sentence to base it on. Is the controversy worth it to drive Lotro story forward? No. There are umpteen places we could be now instead of in the vales. Being in the Vales for me is like filling the map out for filling it out sake.
I like the map to be fleshed out but the problem with that is, is that we end up having to have contrived and forced stories because really there is none to give.

It is like the mentality in SSG has changed. We have gone from Expac based to no Expacs and now since Mordor was such a huge success, they going back to expac. So, what you get in the meantime is body filler to the main narrative.
Not even good body filler at that, I mean it is no Lothlorien or Evindim.

The only reason we are in the Vales and not helping to clear enemies and help get Minas Tirith ready is because it is Minas Tirith.... The black hole of many a PC crash....

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

There are umpteen places we could be now instead of in the vales. Being in the Vales for me is like filling the map out for filling it out sake.
I like the map to be fleshed out but the problem with that is, is that we end up having to have contrived and forced stories because really there is none to give.

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Where would you rather go? What would make more sense? Where would such lore NOT be 'contrived'?

I really don't feel that strongly either way. But I prefer if Beorn's family had an innate ability and the "secret" wasn't a secret that could be "revealed" at all, but something only they can do. The wolf-men and spider-orcs are much more fun when they're aspirational. To me. Then we can have the menace of... oh no, what if a former minion of Sauron actually transforms them into super spiders? super wolves? Oh wait.. wargs.

The transformation aspect is already lore. Saruman, orcs to uruk. Sauron elf to orc. But not the skin changer as a result of any wizard / istari. More fun if that's unique, well, to me.

However it doesn't bother me any more than berserkers do. Or creatures that summon other creatures. There are many ways to have an "alternate" set of skills without being a skin changer.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf, _The Fellowship of the Ring_

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Does it not? Mastery over shapes sure sounds like you have control over shapes to me. And the "if Radagast could do this he WOULD have!" argument holds little water for me -- Radagast's role in Fellowship of the Ring is pretty small; who's to say what the extent of his powers might have been if he had a more central part to play? If Gandalf tells us that Radagast has "mastery over shapes," I'm inclined to believe him -- but maybe he was talking about his skill at finishing jigsaw puzzles, as indicated upthread. :D

MoL

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I see a wizard with mastery of shapes and hue more a person who can create illusions. Shape shifting doesn't fit into this imo because it lacks illusion and offers something tangible.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I very much disagree, which should come as no surprise. I think some of our storytelling in recent years has been the best we've ever done.

MoL

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But... Who's story are you telling?

When side stories material become equal to or surpass the material content they are derived from then that person isn't telling the original story. That's just using the source material as a benchmark for context.


I say, its time for you all to get back to the meat of the known story and accept the books have a determined outcome. Really, how can it hurt? You will still be able to make your own side story additions after the fact. For me personally, I don't want to wait another 5 years of distractions to finally come to the story's end. 12 years has been long enough. As Sam would say. "Get it over."

It's like someone reading a story to an audience and at the last 30 pages they put the book down and start telling another story they created and when someone ask. "How does the book story end?" The reader says "Oh never mind with that", listen to this short sidetrack I wrote last night.

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Originally Posted by Serin36

Where would you rather go? What would make more sense? Where would such lore NOT be 'contrived'?

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There is such a lot of uncontrived, (Wouldn't you class a fictional story as contrived in the first place?) story for the timeline we are running.

Take a look at the original contrived timeline :D

There is so much going on in the coming months in the main story.
As I said in a couple of my earlier posts, why are we not engaging in the areas that we know. I'm all for fleshing out the map, don't get me wrong, but I want to be, for the first time in this game, running back and forth telling all and sundry what I and my fellows have been a part of. Then help them rebuild. Help get the charges of the Harad to submit and finally be pardoned by Ellesar. Obviously we can't head back to the shire before Sharkey and his henchmen have arrived but the Vales? Spider changelings?

It is what it is... but lets us please forget about fictitious battles with Shelob.... It is even more an abhorrent lore breach than the aforementioned.

Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell.

I hope that we don't cross this line.... let me explain why....... when I get home from work :D

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><>

Explanation:


So, three phrases stick out.. "Shelob was gone", "in slow years of darkness healed herself" and "this tale does not tell"

So,

• "Shelob was gone" - a statement of fact or a statement that the author was done with this character? or both?
• "in slow years of darkness healed herself" - a question left for us to ponder? But by the statement "was gone"! leads to the belief that it was meant to be that way and in any case the "slow years" negates any chance without breaking the lore, that we should see her in game.
• "this tale does not tell" - maybe you would think this could lend itself to the fact that other tales could be written but should be read as a clear instruction coupled with the other 2 points above.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

(clipped)

If I wanted to give you Eagle mounts, I wouldn't have to point to this line to do it. It's not the fact of flying on Eagles that I find troubling, since that happens in the books more than once; it's that the Eagles are noble, sentient creatures, and they don't come at your call. I would much prefer a system where Eagles come and interrupt the thing you're doing, picking you up and carrying you away to help THEM with the important thing they want done, regardless of what you have to say about it. Now that's an Eagle mount I can get behind!

MoL

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Hmm, surely there are eaglets around who need to learn how to carry tiny creatures to safety someday. They aren't just born knowing how to rescue Gandalf from a wizard tower. And since giant magical eagles in LOTR are probably also very long lived, they may age in a way imperceptible to anyone other than an elf. Since they're young, their courage may fail them in certain areas. And their size isn't suitable for some locations. But it's the kind of great responsibility that a great hero like myself would welcome. I mean, to foster an eagle... what an honor!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that we have great side stories but have exception to ones that there really is no need for.

There was no need to have shape shifting bastardisations using not even a single sentence but a phrase within a sentence to base it on.

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i totally aggre!

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

Is the controversy worth it to drive Lotro story forward? No. There are umpteen places we could be now instead of in the vales. Being in the Vales for me is like filling the map out for filling it out sake.
I like the map to be fleshed out but the problem with that is, is that we end up having to have contrived and forced stories because really there is none to give.

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no sorry i disagrre its great to have as much as more middle earth possible n it needs quests n folk n enemies to fill it.
its n other thing to fill the map n other to translate the lore to the way it fits!

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Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin

It is like the mentality in SSG has changed. We have gone from Expac based to no Expacs and now since Mordor was such a huge success, they going back to expac. So, what you get in the meantime is body filler to the main narrative.
Not even good body filler at that, I mean it is no Lothlorien or Evindim.

The only reason we are in the Vales and not helping to clear enemies and help get Minas Tirith ready is because it is Minas Tirith.... The black hole of many a PC crash....

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totally agree on this too, still i want the map full opened no matter what but not a lore breaking, talking about content, lore translations, classes, races, or anything tarnsforming lotro into n other fantasy mmorpg!

(caps on)again n thats for all to hear, devs or players, skinchangers were only a few!
no bear man adomination class/race was needded!!! one adomination the RK is more than enough!!!
skinchanging is not a skill that can be teached!!! if Radagast was able to teach a skill so strong, Gandalf would be only the fool friend of hobbits, party goer, trader of fireworks n nothing more!!!! ok and pipesmoker too :p
if Radagast was able to teach it why there r no more skinchangers in the books???
even in game you devs have only created a familly of skinchangers, descandents of Beorn, where r the rest? (if they r not a few)
adding a phrase n destroying the lore just to continue your story is so bad n so poorly thought, you could do lot better!!!
adding a phrase n destroying the lore just to add a handfull of quest n a stupid village of a stupid enemy, you could had added anything to continue the story!!!!
master of shapes does not mean teacher of skinchanging!
i m really tired with this, i really hope you would not do something like this again!!! :mad:
class or race or lore............

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Originally Posted by gripply

I really don't feel that strongly either way. But I prefer if Beorn's family had an innate ability and the "secret" wasn't a secret that could be "revealed" at all, but something only they can do. The wolf-men and spider-orcs are much more fun when they're aspirational. To me. Then we can have the menace of... oh no, what if a former minion of Sauron actually transforms them into super spiders? super wolves? Oh wait.. wargs.

The transformation aspect is already lore. Saruman, orcs to uruk. Sauron elf to orc. But not the skin changer as a result of any wizard / istari. More fun if that's unique, well, to me.

However it doesn't bother me any more than berserkers do. Or creatures that summon other creatures. There are many ways to have an "alternate" set of skills without being a skin changer.

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exactly!
totally agree!

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Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman

Firstly, let me say it is really refreshing to have a sensible debate on a topic whilst staying so polite - thank you! Tolkien was a keen debater, so he would approve, I am sure!

To the point:

Beornings are not technically a new species - they are descendents of the Edain, like other Northmen. Gandalf says of Beorn: "Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale." Also, Tolkien, in letter 144, wrote: "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man." Any new spider-changing bad guys created by SSG could therefore also be accepted as still being men, but with the gift of skin-changing, like the Beornings.

Radagast is described by Gandalf as "a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue", so he may have had the power to bestow this gift.

Were there other skin-changers? Well Gandalf also says: "it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." So not all shape-changers were of a good nature. You could therefore have evil Beornings as a concept.

There have also been other examples of shape-changing in Tolkien lore:

• Thuringwethil - a shape-changer who could take the form of a bat

• Sauron - had been known to transform into a wolf

• Beren and Luthien: "By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him." There was magic here that changed their forms - Luthien could not have "flittered" had the bat just been a disguise.

So there was an "art" of skin-changing that could be learned, by various different kinds of beings. The grey area that I think we need to clear this up is: when did Beornings acquire the skill to change? Their ancestors, the Edain, didn't have the skill inherently, so where did it come from? The wizards didn't arrive in Middle-Earth until the Third Age, so if we accept SSG's interpretation, they have to have only acquired the skill no more than 2000 years before the events of the books.

So... my challenge to you is - can you prove the Beornings had the skin-changing power before TA 1000, when the wizards showed up? If so, you win the debate, my friend! :)

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This is absolutely right! The lore-logic makes perfect sense. After all, Rhosgobel is not terribly far from Beorninghus, where Beorn's people lived for a very long time from what little we know.


There is a group of Men whose biography has yet to be fleshed-out by SSG, but we have heard glimpses of them... for it was on account of Castamir's refusal to accept any King of blood lineage from them that the Kinstrife happened in Gondor. These were the Men of Rhovanion, who had a Kingdom, and who were defeated by the Easterling Wainriders in various wars stretched across the plains to the south and east of Mirkwood. One of these leaders managed to take part of his people, who were formerly enslaved by the Easterlings, and escape to the Anduin and settled between the river and Mirkwood in roughly the same area where we find the Woodmen villages in the Vales (hence their similarities to the Rohirrim in their NPC models; the original woodsmen we met in the Rushgore looked more akin to Dunlendings, and they wisely changed their design as NPC's). The current Woodsmen cannot perceive, given the long centuries that have passed, that the elusive "North-men" were probably their ancestors, or at least cousins sharing the same root on the grand family tree. Now, the group who became the Eotheod moved north, founded Framburg, and they were between the Ered Mithrim and the Misties. It was from this group that Eorl led his horsemen south- ultimately becoming Rohan.

Now, I highly suspect that the Beornings (and from a Gondorian perspective, all Rhovanion folk are Northmen) came from the same stock as the folk of Rhovanion, may even have been related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim (which makes Tolkien's re-appropriation of an Anglo-Saxon mead hall as Beorn's Lodge make sense lore-wise), and in all probability, were- and so, with Rhosgobel not terribly far away, it would make sense that one of Beorn's ancestors, if not Beorn himself, learned this "ability" from Radagast, who is already associated with animals and understanding their speech and so on. So, there we have it. Now, when the Woodsmen refer to their homeland in the Blight, which is long since lost- which is to the east of Mirkwood's Narrows, we may then pinpoint precisely where the heart of the Rhovanian Kingdom likely was. When we eventually head directly east of Mirkwood, I have little doubt that we will discover Rhovanion ruins, find lore artifacts of that period, perhaps shed some more light on the Kinstrife's origins with Vindumavi and the crown prince Eldacar (well, the real origins were simply that Castamir was literally a royal jerk), and so on. There is much of interest there- as the folk of Dale, Lake-Town, the Woodsmen, and the Rohirrim, and probably the Beornings, and perhaps even the Hobbits (*we know they are a particular strain of human, and we know they do not quite appear until the Third Age), all happen to share that same root of ancestry, the old Kingdom which was Gondor's oldest ally (and its void of absence was ultimately filled by Rohan- triumphant after the long centuries of exile in the North).

So yeah- Radagast's influence? I can totally view that as a valid concept in the lore.

I think the issue that folks are having is more of a "Dispersion of the Mystery" issue. Someone mentioned the Aliens in Moria in the Foundations of Stone. I think that's precisely it. Tolkien often deliberately left some things as mysterious- such as the origins of the Ent-wives, the unfathomable depths of Moria, the Nameless things, Beorn's origins and that of his skin-changing, how Radagast gets lost in nature and never returns West as he was supposed to and why if he was so good would he not return, and so on. There are a lot of such mysteries. Earnur's ultimate fate in Minas Morgul is another- and so is what would eventually happen with Shelob. So, for example, I -used- to imagine Moria as an unfathomably huge labyrinth. Now, my mind can explore every nook and cranny from top to bottom, from "lowest dungeon to highest peak," and imagine the Map from the Silvertine Lodes to the FoS. It's awesome as a game, but its disconcerting to me and how I used to imagine Moria- so I have to use some mental acrobatics to remember, "this is Game Moria, not Book Moria," due to the down-scaling of the world and so on and so forth. So, the unfathomable depths of Moria, in-game, become fathomable, and that has some natural consequences to how we imagine Moria, which we may or may not like. This is the "Dispersion of the Mystery" issue that this game has always and ever grappled-with- something that was mysterious becomes "answered" by the game in some way, which can be cool, but it also disperses that sense of mystery once the "mystery is solved," as it were.


Now, we have to remember the -context- that Tolkien built around his lore. He didn't write his book as if it had the definitive answer to everything- it's why he left stuff deliberately vague in some cases. But, as a game, and as a game that, in order to sustain its players, -must- foray into the unknown, it's quite important that the game do what it -has to do- in order to keep going. The game must craft not merely new content, but it must do so in a way that makes the more "lore-oriented" parts of the quest-lines be compelling and worthy of exploring.

The context is simply this. Tolkien was not merely writing the story with consciousness of himself as a writer. He was writing these events as if they -really happened- thousands and thousands of years ago, with the Red Book of Westmarch as his "source text" that he was "translating." So, we have three fictional writers who provide the frame for the story. We have Findegil King's Writer in Minas Tirith- who takes charge of editing the story. Passages in LOTR that feel more "bird's eye view" or historical in tone are likely the work of Findegil in Tolkien's frame. We may certainly attribute the Appendices to Findegil as they are basically historical timelines and explanations. We have Samwise Gamgee, who fills-out some of the details, particularly of his own perspective. We have Frodo himself, who writes the main body of the work.


So, when the line that talks about, for example, Shelob, speculates on whether she died of her wounds or slowly regained her strength throughout the years, "this tale does not tell," -in-lore-, what this simply means is that neither Findegil King's Writer, nor Frodo, nor Sam, learned the ultimate fate of Shelob, or that if they knew her ultimately fate, "This tale does not tell [because it got very very ugly and unworthy of recounting in the histories out of dread]", or we might interpret this as Tolkien deliberately leaving us with a mystery as readers.

But there -are- multiple potential interpretations of such lines because of the narrative frame- Frodo, Sam, and Findegil, and what we are aware of in the lore depends on their awareness as writers. Their perspectives are limited; they might not always be "reliable narrators" depending on the subject, and they have the grace to admit to it with such mysteries.

So, here's the point. Clearly, whatever will "go down" with Shelob in the Minas Morgul expansion, the only way it would have a snowball's chance in the Cracks of Doom as staying in accordance with the lore, would be that, for whatever good reason, neither Frodo, Sam, nor Findegil learn about this, and so, in their absence of knowing events, write the lines they write in what becomes our text of LOTR. In short, anything that happens down there can't merely be -possible-, but also feel -plausible- given what we currently know. Given what we currently know, that may prove quite difficult, depending on what they do.


Has such a narrative maneuver happened in-game before? Yes. It happened with Thaurlach and the Rift of Nurz Ghashu. They needed a "lore reason" as to why this momentous event was not mentioned in the text of LOTR. So, they devised having Gandalf and Lord Elrond counsel against mentioning such things to anyone, and thus it does not appear in our source text. This is largely -the- maneuver that permits the game to do so much in its storytelling, and its probably -the sole method- of making narrative writing in this game even possible.

So, the real issue is not really, "did X, Y, or Z" happen in the lore. It's "Could X, Y, or Z" happen, despite not being in our source text, in ways that are plausible to us as players and readers?" Is it plausible that Radagast taught Beorn's ancestors how to skin-change? To me, yes, based on what we know once we piece it all together. What I love about this move with Radagast is that................... it takes something that felt very foreign from the lore- these wild men in Forochel and Misties and Ered Mithrim and now Woodsedge, and it makes them feel far more part of Middle-earth, making the reasons behind their existence make sense.

When I first played in Forochel, the Gauredain didn't feel part of Middle-earth to me, other than a few passages in the Sil about werewolves. For the longest time, I thought they were once werewolves or a remnant of that part of the First Age, perhaps worshippers of Sauron when he was known as the Lord of Werewolves prior to his thwarting by Luthien. But, it still................. I don't know. It felt very weird, these Wolf-people without a clear lore origin. Now, its starting to make far more sense, and I like that in their case this skinchanging was a -good- thing that was corrupted, rather than an inherently -bad- thing that came from ages past. Because, "nothing is evil in the beginning," as Gandalf says, and it really helps give some more context to Radagast's peripheral role in this story- and I would like a lore-plausible, in-game, explanation of why he doesn't sail West. I think they are building to this, slowly, and this is the game largely doing its best with what it has to work-with. But, of course, not all may agree with this because-------------> the mystery has been dispersed in so far as the game is concerned, which does have its own range of consequences- mostly all concerning plausibility.

So, as the Dev's continue to write, I would encourage them to focus not only on answering the question, "Is X possible in the lore?" But to also ask and stress the question: "Is this -plausible-, given what we know?"