Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

[D.H1cks]

One thing to keep in mind is that Turbine has a ripcord feature for the plugin system.

I can't find an exact quote, but I do believe I saw somewhere that they can disable individual parts of the plugin system if they find there is a problem.

What does this mean? Well, IF they give us access to some aspect of the game that allows folks to trivialize content, they can disable that system very easily, and those plugins would no longer work.

Now, I have no idea if the following would work, but maybe that have a way to disable parts of the plugin system when you are in an instance? That would be great if they did cause they could then allow things like DPS meters (which I am not fond of) to work in the normal landscape, but not during raids.

This would allow folks to try different things to find the best DPS rotation for themselves, but not when in a raid. Maybe we could get a dev response if this is possible.

[Bradd]

If trends continue the same way they have been during the F2P beta testing, you may very well see Turbine employees creating plugins in their spare time.

That is to say, if Turbine provides APIs for accessing combat events, you can bet that they will also provide some of the first examples of DPS meters, threat meters, and boss event parsing plugins. (All of these things can be calculated, estimated, or implied from combat events.)

Also, I think LOTRO would receive a huge boost from anything that makes raiding (or group content in general) more accessible. The alternative to this is dumbing encounters down and removing challenging elements for everyone

These type mods would be a huge boost to the people who make them, and to the sites that you download them from - because of the money making potential. For the general playerbase, they will do much more harm than good.

DPS/HPS/Skill Usage meters: Many players appreciate straightforward, intuitive ways to evaluate their own individual performance in a given scenario. Some group leaders may appreciate similar functionality. Due to combat logging being near instantaneous, there are already tools to do some of this analysis outside the game.

The availability of this kind of analysis in game cannot lead to content becoming easier or being made harder. The only deflation or inflation that could result is that of certain players' egos. It might lead to an emphasis on personal accomplishment rather than group accomplishment. This is a social problem that already exists, not a game systems problem.

A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the none dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.

This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

(If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)

Threat meters: Threat/hate/aggro is a cloudy topic, currently ruled by intuition, speculation, and trepidation. However, even in the absence of APIs to determine exact threat levels, it's likely that with enough testing, they could be estimated from combat events. This type of plugin would take some of the mystery and risk out of group encounters.

Unless you consistently group with the same players with the same classes, same builds, same equipment, and same playstyle, knowing your limits as DPS or healer, or maintaining situational control as a tank can be extremely stressful. For players who level to 65 with limited exposure to groups (an easier task now than ever before), this can be a serious impediment to experiencing the "end-game" content. These are the types of players (and group leaders) who would benefit the most from threat meters. Other players who enjoy the added risk can continue without them.

I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. This will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.

Boss mods/Scripted encounter guides: Turbine will not intentionally create an encounter that cannot be completed using the stock UI. (I say intentionally because they seem to have designed quite a few buggy encounters in the past that could not be completed at all.) If you consistently group with players who are willing to learn encounters for weeks on end before meeting any measure of success, then you and your friends will not enjoy or benefit from these types of plugins.

Boss Mods basically take the thought out of playing. You have a mod telling you what to do and when to do it. You have a computer running the raid and you are in effect merely a drone. There are several negative effects of these type mods. First, it takes a lot of the fun out of raiding. You feel like an automaton obeying the instructions of a computer. Secondly, and more serious, they trialize content. Boss Mods compensate for not paying attention. Using Boss Mods, you can eat supper, watch TV, and raid at the same time. Raids that were once challenging become boring (for people using the boss mods), which will potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate.



_____


When any addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. Raids will require people to have certain addons to come. People will get so used to having the mods they can't play without them. I have seen it time and time again in WoW. People would not even bother to log in on patch days until all their addons were updated. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

Once these type addons are implemented and become comman, one of two things will happen:
Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them, or
People will quickly become bored because the instances are easy with the mods, and demand more and more end-game content as a result.

[Fredelas]

+rep for speaking your mind and making some valid points!

These will all be important things to bring up again if (when?) Lua scripting actually goes live and if (when?) additional APIs are considered for implementation in future updates.

The developers have shown themselves to be refreshingly receptive to critical feedback (framed constructively, of course) on how these types of things actually get implemented. I look forward to much empassioned debate in the future!

[Grothaal2]

My thoughts are that Turbine opened the ports to hell

If something can be built even as a basic metter, they will develop a metter. This metter will spread. The clamour for more API interfaces will come.

Turbine 'could' close the API and make it invalid IF they wish.

But, seriously, will they? lol, sure they will... (j/k)

They say it to make the changes more acceptable, saying they would roll some changes back, but my bet is that they will never do it.

If a metter is made, it will endure.

Some plugins are nice, but we have already a plugin that pops in your face what pot you need to use. Convenience, clean the bars...sure.... (the thinkless game has already arived).

Its a trend thats likelly to be more and more present.

[Grampsaz]

Two thoughts or requests, how ever they come off

Buff bars tech with a reversed AmIbuffed.

So amIbuffed does a check to see if Glory is active (example) if it isn't you get a reminder.
Buffbars obviously shows buffs and debuffs, which I think is great, what I'm interested in is the UI bar that pops up when a debuff/pwr/morale threshold is met.

So take the viewer tech from amIbuffed and mix it with a ver. of buffbars.

What I'd like the end result to be is, if your a guard and you get a parry response a UI will pop up with your parry skills, get a block, UI pops up with your block response skills.
Burg same thing, get a crit, UI pops up with crit response skills.
Mins, tier 1 ballad played, UI pops up with tier 2 ballads.
Champs, defeat response skills pop up in a custom UI
Hunters, parry response.
Capts, defeat responses
Warden, when at <50% morale, a UI with five slots pops up with Dark before Dawn gambit being the end result
RK's only show skills on several UIs that will only show up when your at the right attunement (might be out of the scope of this suggestion) Or if/when a RK has certain buffs up (Closing remarks ect) then EC pops up.
Loremasters, cant think of a thing for them

But ya, see where I'm going with this? Is this at all possible?

[D.H1cks]

Two thoughts or requests, how ever they come off

Buff bars tech with a reversed AmIbuffed.

So amIbuffed does a check to see if Glory is active (example) if it isn't you get a reminder.
Buffbars obviously shows buffs and debuffs, which I think is great, what I'm interested in is the UI bar that pops up when a debuff/pwr/morale threshold is met.

So take the viewer tech from amIbuffed and mix it with a ver. of buffbars.

What I'd like the end result to be is, if your a guard and you get a parry response a UI will pop up with your parry skills, get a block, UI pops up with your block response skills.
Burg same thing, get a crit, UI pops up with crit response skills.
Mins, tier 1 ballad played, UI pops up with tier 2 ballads.
Champs, defeat response skills pop up in a custom UI
Hunters, parry response.
Capts, defeat responses
Warden, when at <50% morale, a UI with five slots pops up with Dark before Dawn gambit being the end result
RK's only show skills on several UIs that will only show up when your at the right attunement (might be out of the scope of this suggestion) Or if/when a RK has certain buffs up (Closing remarks ect) then EC pops up.
Loremasters, cant think of a thing for them

But ya, see where I'm going with this? Is this at all possible?

I played around with a plugin for Mini that more or less did exactly what you are saying. For example, 3 skills only show up when WS is active, and T2, T3 and Anthems would appear as you play the required ballads. I am sure the same type of thing could be done for other classes as long as there is an effect (buff/debuff) applied to the character.

Personally, having played with my Mini for a while with this type of thing on the beta server, I did not find I liked it very much. I can't really explain why, it may just be I am so used to playing with my hotbars set a certain way that it is an adjustment thing.

[FyreBrand]

I played around with a plugin for Mini that more or less did exactly what you are saying. For example, 3 skills only show up when WS is active, and T2, T3 and Anthems would appear as you play the required ballads. I am sure the same type of thing could be done for other classes as long as there is an effect (buff/debuff) applied to the character.

Personally, having played with my Mini for a while with this type of thing on the beta server, I did not find I liked it very much. I can't really explain why, it may just be I am so used to playing with my hotbars set a certain way that it is an adjustment thing.

I haven't played with the plug-in either, but I'm also very picky about my hotbars for both my minstrel and my lore-master. I have a scheme where certain kinds of skills are on certain bars. I am a keyboard + clicker so a purely click oriented interface doesn't appeal to me, and I'm not a fan of pop-ups.

I have watched a you-tube video gramps linked in the dps meter thread about the buff bars and I like the look of the plug-in. It looks well written and designed. I will likely use this, but probably only for displaying debuffs. I really hate having tons of pots and clickies on my main bars, even when I have room. When I get a debuff is the time I would rather have an icon pop up that allows me to pop a potion if my curative skill is still on cooldown.

[ScrappyTheGreat]

FYI: the unannounced dev diary can be found here...

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...-lua-scripting
.

[Spitefulirony]

FYI: the unannounced dev diary can be found here...

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...-lua-scripting
.

YES!!!

It's getting released!!!

Thanks Scrappy!

[emceecee]

Two thoughts or requests, how ever they come off

Buff bars tech with a reversed AmIbuffed.

So amIbuffed does a check to see if Glory is active (example) if it isn't you get a reminder.
Buffbars obviously shows buffs and debuffs, which I think is great, what I'm interested in is the UI bar that pops up when a debuff/pwr/morale threshold is met.

So take the viewer tech from amIbuffed and mix it with a ver. of buffbars.

What I'd like the end result to be is, if your a guard and you get a parry response a UI will pop up with your parry skills, get a block, UI pops up with your block response skills.
Burg same thing, get a crit, UI pops up with crit response skills.
Mins, tier 1 ballad played, UI pops up with tier 2 ballads.
Champs, defeat response skills pop up in a custom UI
Hunters, parry response.
Capts, defeat responses
Warden, when at <50% morale, a UI with five slots pops up with Dark before Dawn gambit being the end result
RK's only show skills on several UIs that will only show up when your at the right attunement (might be out of the scope of this suggestion) Or if/when a RK has certain buffs up (Closing remarks ect) then EC pops up.
Loremasters, cant think of a thing for them

But ya, see where I'm going with this? Is this at all possible?

I have a plugin finished that is very similar to this for Guards, Burgs, Champs and Captains. May be adding more classes. Right now my kin and I are bug testing it, but it should be available soon.

[str8tschut3r]

I don't know why people get their panties in such a wad when the subject of DPS/HPS/Threat Meters come up. They have so many valid uses that they far outweigh any possible PERCEIVED negative aspects. There's a reason why WoW has the best raiding experience out there for ACTUAL RAIDERS--that reason, in addition to great, well-thought-out content in general--is meters.

DPS Meters: If you're a DPS class and you don't give a rat's behind how much DPS you're putting out, YOU FAIL. It's really very simple. If your JOB is to provide DPS to a raid or to an instance group and you don't do that, it doesn't really matter whether you're a ****** player, haven't given any thought to your gear or traits, or you simply don't have a clue about your class or rotation--not only do you just suck, but you're negatively affecting the success of your group or raid. If I have 24 other people that I run with all the time and know exactly what they're capable of, and I know they don't suck, and one or more of them are unable to make a raid and we invite some new guys that nobody knows, myself, the other raid members, and the raid leader have the RIGHT and even an OBLIGATION to know what the new guys are doing. If I'm at the top of the dps meter and out of the 18 other dps, 14 are relatively close to me, those 14 are doing their jobs correctly. However, if the other 4 dps have 10% or less of my overall dmg/dps they are not only screaming "I don't have a clue what I'm doing!", they are hampering the ENTIRE group/raid's progress/success/enjoyment. Furthermore, they should never be invited back (unless it is established in the future that--according to the dps meter--they have improved). Having SOME idea of what people are capable of when it comes to DPS is NOT a bad thing, it's critically mandatory to the success of the group as a whole that that person's performance be judged and it be determined whether they obviously know what they are doing or obviously don't have a clue. Not having access to a dps meter means you don't really know if your raiding partners are beneficial to the raiding group as a whole or not. Not standing in pancakes is important, but putting out 5, 10, 20 percent of the dps that everyone else is putting out quite simply means you don't belong in that raid. END OF STORY.

A few of you have said roughly "dps/hps/threat meters makes the content so easy that the only options are to increase the difficulty or be bored". That is a bunch of bull and you know it... Good, quality players working together flawlessly and with great skill is what makes content easy. Not meters. Meters are tools that anyone COULD use but the people who get the best use out of them are the ones who spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data which is easily/readily/quickly available right inside the game. AND they spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS. AND they spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters so that they're not only prepared but downright GOOD when the fight happens. These players will ALWAYS be more successful than Joe Blow and Suzy Q EVEN WITHOUT meters because they quite simply--put the WORK in to get that way. Depriving anyone, and especially the good players who give a rip about the game and their abilities of this simple, easy to implement tool known as a DPS meter is utterly ludicrous even if the person wouldn't use it anyway.

HPS: It's simple. If you have 4 healers and 3 are within a few percentage points of each other and 1 has 10-20% of the other's heal output, that 1 person sucks. They don't know what they're doing. They aren't geared right. They don't know their class or their rotation. THEY DON'T BELONG IN THE RAID. They are severely hampering the overall success/enjoyment of the entire raid. They let people die which leads to wipes or really long fights which leads to people getting pissed off at each other and the game in general.

Another thing: a few have mentioned that some people "play to the meters" to look good or stroke their e-peen/ego. The bottom line is if you're DPS or Heals and you have a skill that removes a negative effect and you're in a fight that has that negative effect happening every so often and you DON'T USE YOUR SKILL that removes the effect at all, it doesn't matter one bit how much numbers you put on the board, you're not doing your job skillfully or effectively. That's why GOOD DPS meters not only track the actual numbers themselves but also skill usage frequency. Without that simple, easy to implement DPS meter, you have no idea if your fellow raiders are using their abilities in a manner that positively impacts the overall success of the raid or group... or not.

No, the fact is: without a good dps meter, we're all just bumbling idiots who THINK we know what we're doing when in truth we're all just guesstimating at our own abilities and the abilities of the others in the raid group. I would much rather have meters AND a challenging raid than have NO meters and an easy raid meant to be SO EASY that literally ANYONE regardless of skill can do it. Because the truth is, some people are NEVER going to be able to go into raids and be successful. And I for one would much rather eliminate those people from my raiding team. If i'm gonna spend hours a night raiding, I want to surround myself with competent, skilled players who care as much about the success of the group as I do. DPS Meters help tremendously towards that end. DPS/HPS meters separate the wheat from the chaff. And I'm not talking about one mage/loremaster who gets 0.37% more dps than another mage/loremaster--I'm talking about those people who literally get 5-20% or thereabouts of what everyone else is doing be it heals or dps. Those people exist in droves and I don't want to group with them. Not when I'm spending hours of my life, and tons of my own resources ingame to attend a raid for a SMALL CHANCE at obtaining an item that is going to make me put out more dps/heals thereby making me an even better player.

Now with all that said--here's why I don't like DPS meters: people who have a few aoe abilities and on a big aoe pull they happen to get a respectable amount of spike DPS and feel the uncontrollable urge to spam their meter in MY raid all the while completely oblivious of the fact that they're at the absolute bottom of the dps chart--even after the tanks. That is what is truly bad about DPS meters, those complete and utter bumbling idiots who don't have a clue what they're doing who see a big number pop up for a second and it makes them think they're 1337. In the wrong hands, any powerful tool can be utterly annoying and even dangerous; in the RIGHT hands that powerful tool is even more powerful and helps to craft a powerful player who can go into any raid and do their job well.

Threat: Accurately gauging one's own threat relative to the other members of the raid (namely tanks) is NEVER a bad thing. It's a hell of a lot better than pretending that you know how to manage your threat... pulling off the tank... and causing a wipe. Another wipe. And another. After all those wipes we're ALL pissed off at you or whoever's fault it is because we're collectively NOT there to fail. We're there to succeed and get phat lewtz.

This has been my rather lengthy assessment of why meters are NOT the great evil some of you purport them to be, they're actually an incredibly powerful/useful tool in learning more about yourself, your class, the game, and the many fights IN the game.

Let the flaming begin...

[Darej]

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

[Digital_Utopia]

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

I'm going to say this one more time.

As long as someone is abiding by the EULA/ToS/CoC, they have the right to play this game any way they see fit, with or without others who share their interests. It doesn't matter whether that play style is making pies in the Shire, grouping up to just have fun in an instance, or yes, even feeling that winning/succeeding is the only way to have fun.

Nobody here has told you how you should play and you certainly have no right telling others how they should play. If you don't like that playstyle then the solution is simple. Don't group with them. Chances are they wouldn't want to group with you either.

[Darej]

I'm going to say this one more time.

As long as someone is abiding by the EULA/ToS/CoC, they have the right to play this game any way they see fit, with or without others who share their interests. It doesn't matter whether that play style is making pies in the Shire, grouping up to just have fun in an instance, or yes, even feeling that winning/succeeding is the only way to have fun.

Nobody here has told you how you should play and you certainly have no right telling others how they should play. If you don't like that playstyle then the solution is simple. Don't group with them. Chances are they wouldn't want to group with you either.

uh..did you even read the post i was referring to?

i was responding to his argument about why meters/gearscore should be allowed.
his whole post showed exactly why we do not want those kinda of things here.

its not a legitimate playstyle here since the mods dont exist.

so not really sure what you are getting on me about.

[Digital_Utopia]

uh..did you even read the post i was referring to?

i was responding to his argument about why meters/gearscore should be allowed.
his whole post showed exactly why we do not want those kinda of things here.

its not a legitimate playstyle here since the mods dont exist.

so not really sure what you are getting on me about.

Yes, actually I did read the post - and despite the wall of text it is, the poster makes a good point - for those who want to put winning first (actually, I'm not sure you did read that post, because the poster mentioned nothing of gearscore). Putting winning first is the playstyle. HPS/DPS meters are just tools to use to improve themselves, and make sure they've got the right group to do the job. Saying that this isn't a legitimate playstyle because these meters don't exist, is kinda like saying that collecting cosmetics wasn't a legitimate hobby until the wardrobe. Both statements are just as wrong.

People who raid/group for the explicit purpose of beating the instance, get their fun/enjoyment from doing just that. Anything less is simply unacceptable. Naturally they want more information to be able to take on the instance with the best group they can assemble - and such meters can be used to assist them with that goal.

Yes, the unending complaint will always be: "But that means they can judge other people and kick them if they don't perform well enough for them!" Yeah? So what? They make the group and they get to choose who stays or goes. If winning isn't the most important thing to you, then you probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway - and should probably find a group that finds fun even in losing (which, from my experience is the majority of groups). If it is, and you're not performing well enough, then it's your responsibility to improve.

Everybody has the right to play the game the way they want to, and the right to request tools/features/options to make that playstyle more enjoyable to the individual. Just because one doesn't like that playstyle - doesn't mean that it's somehow illegitimate.

Edit: I apologize for the heavy dose of sarcasm, I don't mean to be offensive about it. However, it does irritate me when I see anybody of one playstyle demonize another's. It doesn't even matter if my playstyle happens to be the same as the one who's doing the demonizing. For the record - winning does not mean everything to me, and although I'd like to play around with a personal DPS meter to improve my rotation/performance, I would never require a group dps meter. That being said, I do not wish ill on anybody who does or wants to. Everybody here has the right to play this game the way they see fit, without anybody else telling them that they're not welcome here.

[str8tschut3r]

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

Please, kind sir, enlighten me as to what EXACTLY it is about my post that proves your point and proves why you don't need/want meters in LOTRO. Instead of using such a simple-minded blanket statement which says absolutely nothing, use examples and your communication skills to prove what EXACTLY it is about meters we don't need.

Is it A: You don't enjoy grouping with quality players who know what they are doing and use every tool available to them to become a better player? Or is it B: You personally have never used any sort of meter and consequently have no idea how to use them to better your own performance. Or maybe it's C: You quite simply don't want others to know how poorly YOU are doing.

And as to my name, a name proves NOTHING in any sort of intelligent debate about any subject. My name here happens to be the same gaming handle i've used ever since Duke Nukem and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I see how it could possibly reflect in any way on the conversation at hand.

So please, kind sir, actually use your brain instead of saying "the above post proves why we don't need that bunk here" and come up with an actual statement of your own as to WHY we DON'T need meters in LOTRO or any other game where performance determines success. Until then... your point remains UNproven.

[Thoroval]

One wall-o-text deserves another I guess.

I don't know why people get their panties in such a wad when the subject of DPS/HPS/Threat Meters come up. They have so many valid uses that they far outweigh any possible PERCEIVED negative aspects.

However would anyone get a negative perception?

...YOU FAIL...
...you just suck...
...you don't belong...
...that 1 person sucks...
They don't know what they're doing.
They aren't geared right.
They don't know their class...
THEY DON'T BELONG...
I for one would much rather eliminate those people from my raiding team.
I don't want to group with...
...those complete and utter bumbling idiots who don't have a clue...

Oh, maybe that's how. I suspect your post had the desired effect on many folks as you intended. Anyways, moving on...

Good, quality players working together flawlessly and with great skill is what makes content easy. Not meters.

Okay, you almost had me agreeing with you, but then you argue against yourself.

No, the fact is: without a good dps meter, we're all just bumbling idiots who THINK we know what we're doing when in truth we're all just guesstimating at our own abilities and the abilities of the others in the raid group.

Which is it? Are meters a requirement or not?

A few of you have said roughly "dps/hps/threat meters makes the content so easy that the only options are to increase the difficulty or be bored". That is a bunch of bull and you know it...

I experienced that transition in WoW so I know it's not bull, and I suspect you know that as well. Look. I really could not care less if you had meters. I used them in WoW and I'd even use them in LOTRO if available. But I'd only welcome meters IF Turbine wouldn't increase instance difficulty based on the leet raiders complaining about "ez mode" instances. Unfortunately, Turbine already does that even without meters. It would only get worse with meters.

You yourself write at length about how meters let the so-called "good" players refine their DPS/healing/whatever to such a degree that basically everyone is at the absolute peak and similar in performance. I agree with you. That will happen. The Devs themselves won't be able to put out more DPS or healing or whatever. I submit that will in fact result in trivializing content as it exists today. Turbine will soon hear the cries of "we beat the latest raid in a week!" and "no more care bear content!" They'll have no choice but to dial up difficulty (just as Blizzard did). That means the only folks who will capable of doing the content are those who:

• "spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data"
• "spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS"
• "spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters"

That's a lot of hours! In other words, the only folks who will capable of experiencing the content are the minority of the player base who have that kind of time. It's nearly there now.

I've been in LOTRO beta testing several times and I've been in raids testing new content on my main that I know very well. The instances aren't balanced for the average player. They just aren't. They're balanced to give leet raiders something to do for a while. Turbine has to do this or they'd be filleted alive.

Now, add in the meters. The leet raiders will get even more efficient (I know they will; we certainly did in WoW), they'll beat new content even quicker, and Turbine will have no choice but to further increase difficulty.

But listen to me. I don't want to nerf end game instances. Hardly! I've always advocated Turbine have a "quest mode" (with zero "phat lewtz"; just allow players to complete quests and deeds), "regular mode" (with decent loot), and a "hard mode" (with teh awesomest phat lewtz! that make "an even better player") for their raids and other large end game instances.

Give me a quest mode, then tweak that hard mode and make it insane. That way the leet raiders can have their glass chewing grind and their gear. Quest mode would allow other, average players to experience the story within those spaces. And why shouldn't they? They pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders. Should they be excluded because they aren't "Good, quality" "powerful" players "who give a rip about the game" (because everyone knows only leet raiders give a rip about the game), "are doing their jobs correctly" and "don't suck?"

Think about it. Of all the content in game, what content are you, the leet raider, excluded from? None. What content am I excluded from? Only the end game instances. (Please, let's not argue about how I could access that content if only I'd take the time, aka mortgage my life. I do NOT have that kind of time. Period.) A quest mode would allow everyone else to experience the content and the hard mode would allow you, the leet raider, to keep your challenge. Is that really too much to ask?

(Blizzard has apparently learned a lesson to some degree. I heard recently that they're using some tech to slowly increase a buff, something like LOTRO's Inspired Greatness I guess, within the top end game instance so the closer Cataclysm comes, the more likely it is that everyone will get to see that content before everything changes. Good move by Blizzard. It allows the leet raiders to have their brag and yet includes more and more paying customers as time goes by.)

To answer my own question above, yes, I believe it is too much to ask. Turbine doesn't seem interested in opening up their end game instances to their average players. So I don't think you have much to worry about. Turbine seems to be listening to you and not the rest of us. The end game instances have definitely been getting harder.

So I'm sure you'll get your meters eventually and the content will get even harder to compensate because you and your friends will have "tweaked" your outputs to the absolute theoretical max. And when you put your leet stats in your Bio (like some folks put their crit numbers in their Bio's today), I'll be sure to read it, be very impressed, then move on knowing that I'm actually enjoying the game instead of working a second job.

I'll end with this. If Turbine posts and says "We're expanding Lua to allow meters (DPS/healing/threat/etc.) However, ALL beta testing conducted will have that aspect of Lua disabled (ripcorded). If raiders beat the content in a week when it goes Live, then so be it. We're not increasing the difficulty.", then I will join the campaign for meters. Until then, I hope Turbine avoids it. That's based on experience, not speculation or emotion.

[str8tschut3r]

@Thoroval

I agree totally with your idea of scalable difficulty. That way you get out of the game what you want to get out of it--and what you're willing to put into it. It would certainly allow all players to experience ALL content and remove the exclusivity factor. I for one would stand behind such a move on Turbine's part wholeheartedly, if it allowed me the chance to have the raiding experience I personally feel that I should be able to get from this game.

You yourself said that already the end game instances are getting harder. This is true. Any time you have a percentage of the player base that spends the majority of their time raiding end-game rather than "making pies in the Shire" the outcome is that percentage of players are of superior skill than the average player. Players of superior skill will ALWAYS be able to conquer content easier than those who possess either less skill or as you put it--less time to achieve that level of skill. So content shouldn't have one diffculty level that is "easy mode so everyone can do it no problem" but levels of difficulty with correspondingly increased loot quality.

There is nothing wrong with increasing difficulty when there are tiers of difficulty. The hardest modes will always be sought after by the best raiders and the easiest modes will always be sought by those not willing or able to put in the time to become a "l33t raider". There is nothing wrong with that setup at all. That way everyone gets out of the game what they want to get out of it.

As for my comment "without meters we're all just bumbling idiots" well that was written with a hefty dose of sarcasm which I realize doesn't translate well at all into text.

And for the record: I'm not trying to be such an elitist jerk that if you aren't within 0.001% of the best dpser then you can't raid. Quite the contrary--I'm trying to reach a point where myself and other raiders possess the tools to eliminate those players that literally don't know how to play their class as represented by their 20% or less dps output as compared to everyone else. If you've ever been part of a raid team and had even a few of those people in your group and wiped constantly as a result you can certainly understand my own frustration and the frustration of others put in the same position.

I don't mind wiping. I don't mind dying. I don't mind losing. As long as everyone knows what they're doing and has put in the work. It's when there are tons of players that don't understand the game well enough to be raiding that I get infinitely irritated and frustrated. If I'm going to raid, I want to raid with actual raiders or at least good enough players that the content is possible at the very least. I've been in too many fail-raids over the years to want to be in more of them. However, if I do find myself in a fail-raid I still give it my all and do the best that I can possibly do; if enough of the raid does that sometimes you still win. More often than not though--you don't.

I realize perfectly well that many of you HATE the way I feel and the points I have made because good raiders and good raiding mechanics are often points of contention for the average player. However, myself and the others like me should not be left out in the cold simply because there are more people that DON'T want to raid or raid well.

[miloatlantic1]

Dang... I just wanted to see which one of my weapons were behaving better in a few different circumstances without trying to add it up all in my head and come up with my own gestimated avg's... after reading this thread, guess there will not be one of these coming any time soon. Sigh....

[Bradd]

There are several threads discussing meters and other raid addons. The vast majority of people posting in those threads oppose meters for a myriad of reasons set forth in those threads.

[FyreBrand]

Dang... I just wanted to see which one of my weapons were behaving better in a few different circumstances without trying to add it up all in my head and come up with my own gestimated avg's... after reading this thread, guess there will not be one of these coming any time soon. Sigh....

There isn't anything in this thread, but forum posters arguing on the internet, to indicate Lua functionality won't be expanded eventually. It's hard to say if Turbine will provide advanced combat data, but they are pretty innovative. I'm sure we'll see more stuff that adds to the game. It's just hard to say what that will encompass. They are a little tight lipped when it comes to those things.

[Bradd]

Please, kind sir, enlighten me as to what EXACTLY it is about my post that proves your point and proves why you don't need/want meters in LOTRO. Instead of using such a simple-minded blanket statement which says absolutely nothing, use examples and your communication skills to prove what EXACTLY it is about meters we don't need.

Is it A: You don't enjoy grouping with quality players who know what they are doing and use every tool available to them to become a better player? Or is it B: You personally have never used any sort of meter and consequently have no idea how to use them to better your own performance. Or maybe it's C: You quite simply don't want others to know how poorly YOU are doing.

And as to my name, a name proves NOTHING in any sort of intelligent debate about any subject. My name here happens to be the same gaming handle i've used ever since Duke Nukem and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I see how it could possibly reflect in any way on the conversation at hand.

So please, kind sir, actually use your brain instead of saying "the above post proves why we don't need that bunk here" and come up with an actual statement of your own as to WHY we DON'T need meters in LOTRO or any other game where performance determines success. Until then... your point remains UNproven.

I realize perfectly well that many of you HATE the way I feel and the points I have made because good raiders and good raiding mechanics are often points of contention for the average player. However, myself and the others like me should not be left out in the cold simply because there are more people that DON'T want to raid or raid well.

First, I believe he was pointing out that your attitude is exactly the reason many of us do not want meters in LOTRO. Your comments give a blueprint as to how an epeen measuring stick (like a group dps meter) will be misused.

Also, you seem to believe that quality players would use group dps meters. You seem to think that the best raiders need group dps meters. That is simply not true. Quality players and high end raiders realize that meters do not show what is necessary for success. As was pointed out by a quality player / high end raider:

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again: meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them, any more than we needed CStats to know if our skills were good enough or our strats worked. We had/have a simple metric for being "good": we succeed or we fail.

No, meters are used and abused by wannabes. And they WILL be abused by wannabes as people in this thread show. Seriously, we've seen that phenomena crop up in posts here via the whole idea of labelling someone a "fail" champ or RK or whatever based on a DPS score. Let's be clear: to top raiders the only "fail" player is one who can't learn in a reasonable amount of time how to help the raid beat the encounters. That's it, not some artificial metric from a DPS meter or anything else.

However, let's be honest: there's always far more wannabes than there are top raiders. And denying that group wide DPS meters won't have an adverse effect on the social milieu of this game is IMO an egrigious example of sticking your head in the sand because you want them. Granted, there are abusive idiots who use any number of measures (whether it be morale totals, or virtue levels, or jewellery items) to pretend to be better than their wannae status/mentality deserves already in this game, but giving those idiots a meter is like unlocking the armory door. It escalates their firepower, and really serves limited if any real purpose.

I mean let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here. Oh yes, because you can use them to "shame" underperformers -- who usually have little or nothing to do with a wipe. Let's be honest: wipes are caused in raids here far more by OVER DPSing than under.

In that sense, what useful purpose do they serve that even remotely counters their destructive potential in the hands of morons? That's right, none.

OTOH, will we see them? Probably, thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix".

Group dps meters matter most to epeening lewt dudes ... those who want to embarrass people, and tell them they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots" ... those who try to impress everyone with their meaningless high dps scores. That behavior harms the community and should not be encouraged.

[str8tschut3r]

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to gauge another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

[Darej]

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to JUDGE another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

FTFY...

excluding someone from a group based on your judgement on whether or not they are worthy...is morally and socially wrong.

also in lotro....putting out maximum possible heals/dps/threat does not always = success.

i have done things with PUGS that organized exclusive judgmental (oh you dont have the virtue slotted..FAIL..kick) groups could not.

teamwork > performance rating any day of the week.

[Bradd]

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to gauge another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

Meters do very little to make you a better player (and sometimes make you a worse player), and at the same time cause some people to be jerks ... telling others that they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots".

To answer your question directly, I prefer to play with people who know how to play their class, learn the encounters, and at the same time are decent people to be around. In other words, I prefer the members of my group to be good players and good people. In all honesty, if forced to make a choice, I would prefer to group with someone still learning his class, than a pompous epeening jerk.

In regard to player ability, people who worry about the meters will often neglect the non-DPS aspects of their class, spam AOEs when not appropriate, and/or neglect controling their aggro - in order to top the meter (or appease some jerk who is obsessed with the meter results). This leads to poorer play in general. As Nirsul indicated, "meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them ... let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here..."

The best players do not need meters and understand how little they actually show. Meters are not a good method to judge the quality of the player. If you judge people by their dps meter output, it is a reflection on your knowledge, not their ability.