Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[Lohi]

The thing that makes me chuckle more is seeing that request for GS...

Because you do need a good tank there, sorry. Now we're getting into the elites laughing at noobs territory again, something dps meters will just encourage. Not everyone in the game is so awesome that a minstrel can tank an end-game instance.

Why would you chuckle? If it's honestly so trivially easy for you why don't you volunteer to help them instead of dissing them?

[Devildoc]

Telling you how much dps you're doing isn't telling you exactly what skills to use, you still have to experiment and figure that out for yourself, just like you do now with C stats.

It's not dumbing down, it's making information available that you can use as a tool to improve yourself. Right now if you don't use parsers and tools, you're probably in the dark about your dps, you might THINK you do well but if you parsed you'd probably be surprised, pushing a mighty 250 dps or something.

[ShinryuLOTR]

Telling you how much dps you're doing isn't telling you exactly what skills to use, you still have to experiment and figure that out for yourself, just like you do now with C stats.

Exactly, which is why a DPS meter isn't needed. We already have the tools for those interested in using them. It does exactly what you want it to do without offering the chance for misuse that an in game meter would, so it's the best of both worlds.

[Bradd]

Another excellant post:

I'm going to re-enter the fray here, as some people are denigrating other peoples contributions because their WoW anecdotes are out of date.

My WoW subscription expired in June. I've raided up to ICC. I've played WoW since Vanilla. There, credentials out of the way so that I can have my say and not be nitpicked as having 'less than current information'.

The fact that I am here, playing Lotro should be pretty much it's own explanation as to which I prefer and why. But I'll spell it out. I hate group meters. I hate all the stress, aggravation, min-maxing, bs driven epeening that results from it. The argument has been made that since our Lotro community is more mature, that introducing similar meters would not have the same effect. I offer this :
F2P will open the floodgates to ALL KINDS of players.
Introducing a damage meter introduces the temptation/inclination to judge others based on their performance.

I am amenable to meters for self. Only because that is a compromise. I would be pleased to not have any at all. For all the reasons stated and more. But my fears are that even this will lead up to demands that recent meters be posted before being accepted into Kinships/raids/groups. I don't think that's too out of this world, people have done odder.

I am a one Kinship person. In my entire Lotro lifetime (beta to now) I have been in 2 kinships only. I am more than pleased with my kin and we'd never do these things - but having that type of attitude even exist ... and to have it become fostered by game mechanics makes me feel sick.

The reasons people say they want meters :
To improve their gameplay.
---there are ways to do this already. CSTATS does allow (in limited capacity) the ability to get numbers if those are so important. Many veteran players are more than happy to share their experience with their classes and how they have succeeded. And there is the BEST WAY - trying it yourself and seeing what works best.

To weed out 'fail' members
---There are ways to do this as well. Pay attention to what's going on. Be familiar with classes and their animations. Is your group having trouble? Try fostering communication. Run with people you trust for cutting edge content. TRY OUT members before inviting them into the harder content.

.... I don't want to judge harshly to my fellow travellers...but it honestly seems to me that the reason you want meters is because you cannot be bothered to interact with other people - and would rather just a quick and impersonal way to compartmentalize them, weed through them, and run only with those you feel make the cut. I suppose if this mechanical way of playing appeals to you, then that is your right. However, your rights end where mine begin. I also have a right to play, to learn my class, to play to the limits of my ability and contribute as best I can to my fellows. I also have the right to fail on my own merits, and not because a meter says I do. Many of my contributions are not measured with numbers. Many of them are not weighed in a single fight.

If you feel I am not a contribution, then remove me. Try another strategy, get creative. But learn to treat me as a human in - between.

That is what WoW has lost. It has lost communication. Everything has become automated. From fights to scores, to meters to interaction. You interface with tools, not people. You enter groups from LFG interface, where you are gear-checked before being presented dungeons the GAME thinks you are able to do. Once there, your party is assembled for you, people buff automatically using mods, which because noone communicates often overlaps your own pre-programmed buffs. No time to change that, as the group begins immediately.

You can vote to kick someone that you feel isn't doing their job. Of course, you don't have to talk to that person, you can just put the command in the game. And if enough people agree, that person is gone without a word.

BUT if you do a good job at the end, you MIGHT get a 'thanks' before they all leave the group. Maybe. Sometimes.

I do not want Lotro to become a game where it becomes standard to switch people in and out of groups to min/max it. I do not want the fights to be so measured and calculated that it becomes a race with the devs to see if god can make a rock too heavy to lift. Once you have a boss completely reduced to the numerics, we start a race that will never end. Fights will become even harder and less forgiving. Meters will become necessary to even participate/succeed, and then we've stopped experiencing a game world, and start playing at calculus.

Why am I against meters? Many reasons. They all boil down to being a tool that would further mechanize a game that SHOULD be about experiencing people and the world, not number crunching encounters to the point where nothing else matters but that.

Edit : Asperity made a comment here : You're allowed to stifle my preferred method of gameplay because you're afraid my way might stifle yours? That's the gist of your argument as I understand it, and it sounds awfully hypocritical.

Again, I am only bringing this to attention because I feel that this is a vital point, the crux of many arguments here.
My feeling on this is simple : Not having meters might 'stifle' your play. It 'might' make you have to do things that you are not used to. However, you came to this game already knowing these things did not exist. This was a choice that you made. You personally feel that having meters would improve the game FOR YOU. I commend that you are trying to make your experience more enjoyable.

Are meters needed? No. Groups are succeeding well without them. It is not needed to play the game.
Are meters wanted? By some. Not by others.
Are meters detrimental? Some say so, others say not.
Are there any games that exist where the presence of meters has NOT had a bad community effect? None that I have played. But if there is, please tell me.
Do meters provide information that cannot be inferred in other ways? I do not believe so.
Is this a divisive issue? Gods, yes.

None of us plays in a sandbox. Each decision made by one affects the other. But in my opinion, preventing meters in a game that already does not have them is less of an impact than introducing meters into a game that doesn't have them. One maintains the status quo, another upsets it.

[Devildoc]

Exactly, which is why a DPS meter isn't needed. We already have the tools for those interested in using them. It does exactly what you want it to do without offering the chance for misuse that an in game meter would, so it's the best of both worlds.

Cept some of the people who would greatly benefit from deconstruction and analysis claim they don't need to, they THINK they're absolutely amazing, the meter would be a necessary eye opener for them to improve.

They think they're one of those rare guitarists who are amazing at playing by ear, don't need lessons, don't need to learn to read music, and certainly don't need to use tabs to play the guitar, but they're not, most people can't do that. They need to be recorded by someone else and play the tape back for them for them to realize, hey, I'm not as hot as I thought, maybe I should learn to read music or at least use tabs. (going back to the Cstats = reading music, in game meter = tabulature, and only a rare few very talented people do the right thing just by "feel" analogy)

[Harry2]

Well reasoned argument.

+ Rep. and more words.

[darkannex]

So would a damage meter that only the player could see work for you? Or must YOU be able to see them?

[Grampsaz]

So would a damage meter that only the player could see work for you? Or must YOU be able to see them?

Its been asked a million times.

YES PLEASE!

Anything is better then a third party app with no turbine support, one that I have to stop an encounter, analyze, enter new/same encounter and adjust.
Not to mention, using Cstats during a raid is completely unrealistic.

I want any type of dps/threat/heal meter, I dont care if its only for me that only I can see, I'd settle for that. But what I'm hoping for and what I'm pretty sure we are getting one day down the road, is a fellowship wide meter.

[Celt_Ainvar]

I want any type of dps/threat/heal meter, I dont care if its only for me that only I can see, I'd settle for that. But what I'm hoping for and what I'm pretty sure we are getting one day down the road, is a fellowship wide meter.

I hope it never happens. I dont Want some Moron Going off on someone Else becuse he leveled up to 65 in a few Months. Then the Newbie being kick off the Kinship or Raid. Becuse a fellowship wide Meter. Then that Player going This Game stinks becuse of the Rude people. Alot of people Pointed this issue out. It why they left games that Had some type meters and such.

I can see this meter useful for a 5 year old child who hits keys randomy and tell you he a expert at this Game.

But I will say what we need to have is people who are willing to explain to new players the skills of each class when they get into Raids and fellowships. What they should be doing and not doing.

We have to become Teachers to make better players. Mybe Start Fellowships earlier level so people can learn better.

[Banaticus]

Turbine will have to justify why RKs do X% more or less than hunters, Champions will complain about Loremasters AOE, Guardians will be up in arms over the TPS of Wardens etc.

You must not have played for very long then or read the stickies in your class forums. We've been discussing the damage of various classes, comparing threat, etc., for three years now, since game launch. Just because you're brand new to the game and the forums doesn't mean that us veterans have been sitting on our duffs drinking tea for the past three years. No, we've gone out, tested, categorized, because we had nothing else to do. We've ground out reputation, unlocked every swift travel route, done all the quests, completed all the deeds, beaten every boss and every instance, we've been there, we've done that. All the things you're worried will happen? They've already been happening, for years now.

Man, this is like reading a post complaining that if things keep going the way they are then the sun will rise tomorrow. Well, yeah, it's been rising every day for quite a long time now, this isn't something new.

We have to become Teachers to make better players. Mybe Start Fellowships earlier level so people can learn better.

I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, some people are completionists, and feel that they have to complete every quest in an area before they continue, even those quests that for whatever reason are so tough that level 65s don't like doing the quest (like the final Dol Dinen quest, just because of fast respawn timers outside the tent). It would be better to skip those parts and come back later, but Turbine is instead making the game much easier and more solo friendly, which means more people get to higher level without really learning anything about their class or the game.

Too many people don't know how fellowship maneuvers work, why different colors do what they do. They don't know about class traits or that if they're a Lore-master or Captain they can work those healing traits by healing their pet while they fight, or that you can't increase damage-based traits by fighting grey mobs. They don't know that a level 30 can gather as much crafting resources in 30 minutes as a level 14 can in several hours, since the level 30 never has to stop and fight mobs (and probably has a faster crafting tool and a horse to ride around on), so instead of waiting until higher level to craft. They don't realize that the vendor NPCs never sell good armor. They don't realize that "trophies" from mobs are vendor junk to be sold, that the only real "trophies" are housing items and things that make housing items and that no trophy makes a housing item.

[Grampsaz]

I hope it never happens. I dont Want some Moron Going off on someone Else becuse he leveled up to 65 in a few Months. Then the Newbie being kick off the Kinship or Raid. Becuse a fellowship wide Meter. Then that Player going This Game stinks becuse of the Rude people. Alot of people Pointed this issue out. It why they left games that Had some type meters and such.

I can see this meter useful for a 5 year old child who hits keys randomy and tell you he a expert at this Game.

But I will say what we need to have is people who are willing to explain to new players the skills of each class when they get into Raids and fellowships. What they should be doing and not doing.

We have to become Teachers to make better players. Mybe Start Fellowships earlier level so people can learn better.

LOL bitter much?

Try making a post about the subject with out being so obtuse and maybe your points will be taken seriously.

Not to mention, there are what? 3 maybe 4 hardcore raiding kins in this whole game. If you think for one second that random raiding kin on random server is going to start booting ppl from kin or from raid for that matter then give your head a shake. I know people from the top tier raiding kins in this game, which are all on the same server. I highly doubt ppl are going to be treated in such a way as you discribe.
If anything, its going to be the crazy nut case that starts his own kin to be hardcore and has zero respect for anyone, someone that tries to make a statement. We have those dudes now and they stick out like a sore thumb. That wont change when we get meters.

OMG the fear mongers and Hyperbole in this thread is just amazing.

[Ashenwoods]

After a wipe it would be good to know if there is a fail champ/hunter/rk in the group.

If you are looking for who you can point the finger at if 12 people fail to get a job done, you're in the wrong game.

[nirsul]

LOL bitter much?

Try making a post about the subject with out being so obtuse and maybe your points will be taken seriously.

Not to mention, there are what? 3 maybe 4 hardcore raiding kins in this whole game. If you think for one second that random raiding kin on random server is going to start booting ppl from kin or from raid for that matter then give your head a shake. I know people from the top tier raiding kins in this game, which are all on the same server. I highly doubt ppl are going to be treated in such a way as you discribe.
If anything, its going to be the crazy nut case that starts his own kin to be hardcore and has zero respect for anyone, someone that tries to make a statement. We have those dudes now and they stick out like a sore thumb. That wont change when we get meters.

OMG the fear mongers and Hyperbole in this thread is just amazing.

Really, fear mongering and hyperbole? I mean, exactly WHERE did the guy mention anything about hardcore kins in particular doing anything as opposed to an event that in fact will happen (as you yourself acknowledge there about having the nuts already).

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again: meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them, any more than we needed CStats to know if our skills were good enough or our strats worked. We had/have a simple metric for being "good": we succeed or we fail.

No, meters are used and abused by wannabes. And they WILL be abused by wannabes as people in this thread show. Seriously, we've seen that phenomena crop up in posts here via the whole idea of labelling someone a "fail" champ or RK or whatever based on a DPS score. Let's be clear: to top raiders the only "fail" player is one who can't learn in a reasonable amount of time how to help the raid beat the encounters. That's it, not some artificial metric from a DPS meter or anything else.

However, let's be honest: there's always far more wannabes than there are top raiders. And denying that group wide DPS meters won't have an adverse effect on the social milieu of this game is IMO an egrigious example of sticking your head in the sand because you want them. Granted, there are abusive idiots who use any number of measures (whether it be morale totals, or virtue levels, or jewellery items) to pretend to be better than their wannae status/mentality deserves already in this game, but giving those idiots a meter is like unlocking the armory door. It escalates their firepower, and really serves limited if any real purpose.

I mean let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here. Oh yes, because you can use them to "shame" underperformers -- who usually have little or nothing to do with a wipe. Let's be honest: wipes are caused in raids here far more by OVER DPSing than under.

In that sense, what useful purpose do they serve that even remotely counters their destructive potential in the hands of morons? That's right, none.

OTOH, will we see them? Probably, thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix".

[Ashenwoods]

99% of the time it isn't me. When it is me I admit it. Nice try.

Lets see, Joined 4 months ago, level 65 (Hmm...sounds power leveled)
Good chance it is you !

[nirsul]

If you are looking for who you can point the finger at if 12 people fail to get a job done, you're in the wrong game.

Not really. In this game in most boss encounters you can pretty much know who boned it.

Of course, that almost never (with the possible exception of the turtle) has anything to do with not doing enough DPS in a way that a meter would measure and allow for being called a "fail" anything. Unless of course OVER DPSing is what they mean by "fail", which I doubt ...

[Edtroll]

And so you have it Turbine............ 43 pages and counting. The over the top hardcore raiders want their meters. They want them to "correct" the play of other players who are not as "leet" as them. They want to use a DPS meter as proof of failure. They will then "correct" the fail players in public (as they honestly have stated). They believe that they can use the meters in a possitive fashion, that their guild can make the raids more successful and thus more fun. Finishing a raid more consistantly and quicker does not make it more fun. But to the minds of these players...... well, they believe what they believe.

Nor do they care about anyone other than themselves. Fine, I get that. But the arguement is not if the hardcore raiders can improve their raiding performance or not, nor even if that will make them happier. The arguement is that in every game in which a dps meter has been added, the general level and quality of play decreases, as players focus more and more upon dps, and every combat becomes a "My DPS was bigger than your DPS" brag fest.

Personally, I don't care if hardcore raiders can finish off a max level raid faster and more consistantly. I don't care about the needs and desires of hardcore raiders about as much as they clearly don't care what their dps and threat meters will do to the average player.

And I get that........... they want what they want. But you Turbine, have to decide what you want. Do you want to give the hardcore players tools to allow them to fine tune their play such that they can more quickly and consistantly finish off the more difficult raids? As a simple business decision, I'm not at all sure that you want to do that.

Are you willing to give the hardcore players those DPS and threat tools if the general level of game play and enjoyment suffers? If the answer is yes, you are willing to degrade the enjoyment of the majority of the players, to satisfy the hardcore raiders........ then add the meters.

But don't delude yourselves. DPS meters and Threat meters change the way players view encounters, and not in a possitive fashion. DPS, and the comparing of DPS, becomes the game within the game.

[Grampsaz]

Really, fear mongering and hyperbole? I mean, exactly WHERE did the guy mention anything about hardcore kins in particular doing anything as opposed to an event that in fact will happen (as you yourself acknowledge there about having the nuts already).

He didn't, he put all raiders in the same basket. Which is offensive to me, and should be to you.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again: meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them, any more than we needed CStats to know if our skills were good enough or our strats worked. We had/have a simple metric for being "good": we succeed or we fail.

No, meters are used and abused by wannabes. And they WILL be abused by wannabes as people in this thread show. Seriously, we've seen that phenomena crop up in posts here via the whole idea of labelling someone a "fail" champ or RK or whatever based on a DPS score. Let's be clear: to top raiders the only "fail" player is one who can't learn in a reasonable amount of time how to help the raid beat the encounters. That's it, not some artificial metric from a DPS meter or anything else.


However, let's be honest: there's always far more wannabes than there are top raiders. And denying that group wide DPS meters won't have an adverse effect on the social milieu of this game is IMO an egrigious example of sticking your head in the sand because you want them. Granted, there are abusive idiots who use any number of measures (whether it be morale totals, or virtue levels, or jewellery items) to pretend to be better than their wannae status/mentality deserves already in this game, but giving those idiots a meter is like unlocking the armory door. It escalates their firepower, and really serves limited if any real purpose.

Okay, lets be honest
There are far more 'wannabes' on E then there are tyranical raid leaders. Which are the only two type of players that would abuse such a tech IMO.
I see them each and every day in GLFF. These aren't the guys that PUG end game to help other kins, or the guys that write guides for other kins ect.

I mean let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here. Oh yes, because you can use them to "shame" underperformers -- who usually have little or nothing to do with a wipe. Let's be honest: wipes are caused in raids here far more by OVER DPSing than under.

See, Hyperbole!
Oh yes, because you can use them to "shame" underperformers
Thank you for making my point for me.

In that sense, what useful purpose do they serve that even remotely counters their destructive potential in the hands of morons? That's right, none.

Several, but obviously you choose to look past them and pass judgement on those that want to use them while at the same time casting doubt and doing everything you can to cast fear on to those that may be on the fence. Guess what, it wont work. The only people you need to convince is the devs that are putting the work into this. Try your fear tactics on them.

OTOH, will we see them? Probably, thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix".

Your right, we will probably see them. But what stands out about your post is not the fear tactics or the hyperbole but rather the fear you have turns into targeted anger. There have been supporters of meters using words like fail, underachiever, ect. Yet people like you, those that dont support meters have so much fear and hatred its really showing in your posts.

The arrogance in your post speaks volumes, you put yourself in a category above other raiders, you think your better then them, then me.

The funniest part of this whole thread is that the people that dont support meters are more inclined to attack someone personally then those that support them. Your making my case, your the example I made. Clear as day your the type of player others should stay away from.

[Grampsaz]

And so you have it Turbine............ 43 pages and counting. The over the top hardcore raiders want their meters. They want them to "correct" the play of other players who are not as "leet" as them. They want to use a DPS meter as proof of failure. They will then "correct" the fail players in public (as they honestly have stated). They believe that they can use the meters in a possitive fashion, that their guild can make the raids more successful and thus more fun. Finishing a raid more consistantly and quicker does not make it more fun. But to the minds of these players...... well, they believe what they believe.

Nor do they care about anyone other than themselves. Fine, I get that. But the arguement is not if the hardcore raiders can improve their raiding performance or not, nor even if that will make them happier. The arguement is that in every game in which a dps meter has been added, the general level and quality of play decreases, as players focus more and more upon dps, and every combat becomes a "My DPS was bigger than your DPS" brag fest.

Personally, I don't care if hardcore raiders can finish off a max level raid faster and more consistantly. I don't care about the needs and desires of hardcore raiders about as much as they clearly don't care what their dps and threat meters will do to the average player.

And I get that........... they want what they want. But you Turbine, have to decide what you want. Do you want to give the hardcore players tools to allow them to fine tune their play such that they can more quickly and consistantly finish off the more difficult raids? As a simple business decision, I'm not at all sure that you want to do that.

Are you willing to give the hardcore players those DPS and threat tools if the general level of game play and enjoyment suffers? If the answer is yes, you are willing to degrade the enjoyment of the majority of the players, to satisfy the hardcore raiders........ then add the meters.

But don't delude yourselves. DPS meters and Threat meters change the way players view encounters, and not in a possitive fashion. DPS, and the comparing of DPS, becomes the game within the game.

See, yet another post where the first two whole paragraphs are targeted insults and anger with the bottom paragraphs fear tactics

LOL I love it.

[SaintBass]

See, yet another post where the first two whole paragraphs are targeted insults and anger with the bottom paragraphs fear tactics

LOL I love it.

You could try... I don't know, discussing the topic and addressing concerns. At this point you are coming off like a petulant child.

[Willaren]

Lol, I took a break 3 months ago and people were complaining that they wanted their meters. I come back later and some LUA/API stuff is happening and more argument that meters will help us play better. Wow, really? Meters will help you play better? Kind of a self-serving argument isn't it? Is there a doubt that meters will help improve play?

I remember roov and I doing a DPS test in SH and he had some ridiculous DPS that i can't recall nor care to look back for. But, really the point of his test that not many got, was that he didn't need CStats to have a great rotation. It's not that difficult to play by feel and it's a hell of a lot more fun.

Meters are probably coming, yay. Careful what you wish for. I'd like a mod that fed me cheetos while also refiring my new group SoW as needed. The cheetos are gonna be the hard part.

[Celt_Ainvar]

Well I have to Agree with nirsul and Edtroll I think they Make Grampsaz point Very Clear. I think we have to save average players.

You know what make Raids Fun. The oh man we almost died and winninig. Brining a few new player into a Raid who never done it and win or Die. It brings back that Fear factor. Before the Raids we suggest things to help the new players like what they should be traited for and What they should bring as in there gear and what they should be doing in combat. Point out things that should be Upgraded or not. But also Support them dead or alive.

[Grampsaz]

You could try... I don't know, discussing the topic and addressing concerns. At this point you are coming off like a petulant child.

Have you read through all 43 pages?

At the very least, click on my name, check post history, and read the dozen or so posts I've made in this thread then come back here and try to say the same thing with a straight face. Regardless, I'm done trying to talk about other players concerns, who am I to even try? People are too scared to even listen.

I was going to link them all for you, but if you want to understand the whole scope of the discussion and not just the last page have at er, otherwise continue doing what your doing, being more disrespectful and personal then the "morons" "E-peens" "punks" ect ect ect that you all are so scared of.

Besides, I'm not the one that needs to address anything, I want meters remember? We are one prop away from getting the first step towards meters, fellowship and raid member vital info

[Celt_Ainvar]

I think we should be Reading this how DPS meters, Gearscore, etc killing WoW? And learn from it. Happy Reading http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...65928843&sid=1

[rocketeer8015]

You must not have played for very long then or read the stickies in your class forums. We've been discussing the damage of various classes, comparing threat, etc., for three years now, since game launch. Just because you're brand new to the game and the forums doesn't mean that us veterans have been sitting on our duffs drinking tea for the past three years. No, we've gone out, tested, categorized, because we had nothing else to do. We've ground out reputation, unlocked every swift travel route, done all the quests, completed all the deeds, beaten every boss and every instance, we've been there, we've done that. All the things you're worried will happen? They've already been happening, for years now.

You have obviously never seen 50% of threads being about such a topic or you wouldnt talk like that. Its one thing if a couple min/maxxers do some theorytalk on the forums and a entirely other thing if people who never posted in the forums or even read them before storm them because they get constantly ridiculed in game for the "failings" of their class.

Oh and im a lifetimer in europe, but hey, hack away. Because obviously im not elite enough to have my opinion count.

Man, this is like reading a post complaining that if things keep going the way they are then the sun will rise tomorrow. Well, yeah, it's been rising every day for quite a long time now, this isn't something new.

I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, some people are completionists, and feel that they have to complete every quest in an area before they continue, even those quests that for whatever reason are so tough that level 65s don't like doing the quest (like the final Dol Dinen quest, just because of fast respawn timers outside the tent). It would be better to skip those parts and come back later, but Turbine is instead making the game much easier and more solo friendly, which means more people get to higher level without really learning anything about their class or the game.

Too many people don't know how fellowship maneuvers work, why different colors do what they do. They don't know about class traits or that if they're a Lore-master or Captain they can work those healing traits by healing their pet while they fight, or that you can't increase damage-based traits by fighting grey mobs. They don't know that a level 30 can gather as much crafting resources in 30 minutes as a level 14 can in several hours, since the level 30 never has to stop and fight mobs (and probably has a faster crafting tool and a horse to ride around on), so instead of waiting until higher level to craft. They don't realize that the vendor NPCs never sell good armor. They don't realize that "trophies" from mobs are vendor junk to be sold, that the only real "trophies" are housing items and things that make housing items and that no trophy makes a housing item.

And none of that would be addressed by threat/dps meters, and ALL of that could be addressed by sacrificing some of our precious time and explain them these things. For people like you a DPS meter would be just another thing you could use to ridicule other people, like you tried with me and my obvious new forum account. You dont know a single thing about me, go around assuming stuff and be wrong, exactly not the kind of person i want to have a group DPS meter.

[SaintBass]

Have you read through all 43 pages?

At the very least, click on my name, check post history, and read the dozen or so posts I've made in this thread then come back here and try to say the same thing with a straight face. Regardless, I'm done trying to talk about other players concerns, who am I to even try? People are too scared to even listen.

I was going to link them all for you, but if you want to understand the whole scope of the discussion and not just the last page have at er, otherwise continue doing what your doing, being more disrespectful and personal then the "morons" "E-peens" "punks" ect ect ect that you all are so scared of.

Besides, I'm not the one that needs to address anything, I want meters remember? We are one prop away from getting the first step towards meters, fellowship and raid member vital info

Yes, I have read all 43 pages (7 for me since I view each page with 100 posts at a time) I have read all several hundred posts in this thread and all several hundred posts in the thread that came before it. I find it amusing that you group me in with those that oppose your position as it makes it obvious that you are in complete ignorance of what I have posted in this thread (the first of which was on page two for you).

My comment was not on your position in particular, but in the manner in which you try to "assuage" the concerns of others... which boils down to you essentially stating "What? Are Ya CHICKEN?!" or otherwise stating "Argument Invalid." It doesn't actually address any of the concerns. Sure, some people will never be convinced, but you would be surprised at the number of people who will listen to reason if you would just take a moment to get over yourself and address the goddamn issue.