Isengard

[BlackBeret92]

With level 65 cap on legendary servers coming to a close soon, I thought I would bring up some important balance issues with the upcoming level cap. As of right now, balance is extremely poor. The t2 nerf dragged down the difficulty of Tower of Orthanc from almost balanced to complete faceroll. The damage in the cluster is pretty good still, since it wasnt touched with the nerf. It could go up by around 25-50% base damage(before t2 buff) to compensate for higher morale pools on LS vs a live level 75 toon, but otherwise really good. The morale of the mobs is where the entirety of level 75 difficulty falls off. Last week(8/21/2019 just to reiterate this was post nerf) my 75 kin on arkenstone(original Mirage) went in to Orthanc to test how much the morale nerf affected the run as a whole. Bear in mind we do have stuff that won't be available on Anor like BB sets and are max geared in addition to those pieces, so our dps on anor would be a little bit lower than live(within 3-5k out of 25-35k, depending on the class). Orthanc is known for being a very mechanic heavy raid, and with 9 out of 12 players we were able to go into every wing and bypass every single mechanic, outside of Fire and Frost(which we probably could have with a full 12 man) and Saruman(Obviously). In lightning wing we were able to down the boss in 25 seconds, before the chain lightning effect (that actually does enough damage to wipe the group thankfully) could even detonate(its starts at 50% boss hp i think). In Acid wing we were able to kill the boss in 20 seconds bypassing adds, disease effects, the invulnerability shield, and the acid geysers. The shield comes up at 1:45 into the fight, which then triggers the geysers, and the adds come out at 1:15. We were almost a minute away from having to deal with the first boss mechanic when it died... In Shadow wing we managed to zerg the boss down in just over 30 seconds, through all of the limrafns giving the boss -10% incoming damage each, ignored every single add, and completely disregarded the light wall because by the time the defilers started their second induction the boss was already dead. Saruman is much better right now as its not a boss you can just zerg down to avoid everything, but the saruman clones are still very weak(health wise) and are able to be burned through their environmental damage reduction fairly easily. I love Isengard and all the really cool mechanics that came with it, but the morale needs to be drastically buffed for us to even see them. After a bunch of discussion with my kin, I think the morale needs to be buffed anywhere in between 3-4 times of what it currently is and the damage either stay the same or go slightly up as stated earlier. That will still be difficult for pug raids, but well within the possibility of coordinated kinships that know the mechanics. While I would personally love to see the morale go up 5 or 6 times, specifically for my kinship, I dont see that as balance, as much as a personal challenge.

[Frisco]

I think making ToO too difficult will just further decimate the raiding population on Anor. What I've heard is that they are maybe introducing the scion system to ToO and adding tiers above T2 with higher chances of dropping good items? That would be really ideal, in my opinion. Make the challenges something that more than just 1 kin has the population to complete, but still give a challenge for the chance at more reward. And smaller kins can create their own challenge by undermanning for more loot, since I assume we won't be on the personal loot system since ToO isn't scaled, so fewer people = more reward per person.

[Angbathar]

I think making ToO too difficult will just further decimate the raiding population on Anor. What I've heard is that they are maybe introducing the scion system to ToO and adding tiers above T2 with higher chances of dropping good items? That would be really ideal, in my opinion. Make the challenges something that more than just 1 kin has the population to complete, but still give a challenge for the chance at more reward. And smaller kins can create their own challenge by undermanning for more loot, since I assume we won't be on the personal loot system since ToO isn't scaled, so fewer people = more reward per person.

If they dont buff ToO, every semi competent group can do the T2C content while eating burritos. For comparison, lightning and acid bosses had 3mil, durins bane and frothmar have around 10mil, while 65 has more morale, we have more dps at 75.

[AlexKutler]

Hmm

[icefriend]

I assume devs learned from their mistakes in the initial Moria release when people soloed 6-mans and 4-manned raids. ToO cluster does absolutely need a morale buff. It's one of the best expansions Lotro ever had and it has the potential to either revitalize legendary servers or bin them completely

[Menergroth]

I think making ToO too difficult will just further decimate the raiding population on Anor. What I've heard is that they are maybe introducing the scion system to ToO and adding tiers above T2 with higher chances of dropping good items? That would be really ideal, in my opinion. Make the challenges something that more than just 1 kin has the population to complete, but still give a challenge for the chance at more reward. And smaller kins can create their own challenge by undermanning for more loot, since I assume we won't be on the personal loot system since ToO isn't scaled, so fewer people = more reward per person.

They should leave Isen with only T1 and T2 (which should be buffed).T2 is supposed to be hard alteast harder then OD which is 10 levels lower.
If you cant finish t2 raid maybe its time to improve as player and in meanwhile if you want to raid you can do t1 version

Before anyone says:T2ch raiders are tiny minority and why should anyone care about their opinion ask yourself is that additude you have about minoritys of any kind irl?

[BlackBeret92]

Giving Orthanc more tiers would do almost nothing as they aren't going to code new loot in. They did that very thing with rift and it flopped completely. It would almost certainly also break something else. As for making stuff "too hard", they nerfed od considerably to try and "revive" raiding on the legendary servers and still nobody did it. The server doesnt have a raid player base to kill to begin with, except the top end, so why nerf a t2 raid that casuals cant do anyways. I do hope more players decide to join for Isengard. It would help both legendary servers immensely in basically every regard. I also understand making a raid ridiculously hard for the 1% isnt viable, however much I or anyone else may want it. BUT 4 times the current morale pool of 75 content is in the ballpark of current OD's difficulty, while Orthanc is much more forgiving, so I feel 3-4x morale is more than a reasonable request.

[LotroVidz]

Giving Orthanc more tiers would do almost nothing as they aren't going to code new loot in. They did that very thing with rift and it flopped completely. It would almost certainly also break something else. As for making stuff "too hard", they nerfed od considerably to try and "revive" raiding on the legendary servers and still nobody did it. The server doesnt have a raid player base to kill to begin with, except the top end, so why nerf a t2 raid that casuals cant do anyways. I do hope more players decide to join for Isengard. It would help both legendary servers immensely in basically every regard. I also understand making a raid ridiculously hard for the 1% isnt viable, however much I or anyone else may want it. BUT 4 times the current morale pool of 75 content is in the ballpark of current OD's difficulty, while Orthanc is much more forgiving, so I feel 3-4x morale is more than a reasonable request.

They didn't nerf morale to revive raiding on anor xD they nerfed the morale in preparation for the t5 instances. They didn't do any specific balancing for OD, the high difficulty was just a random thing.

I defenetly hope they won't cater to 1 single kinship, because that wouldn't be nice to the rest of the players.

I have come to accept that this is not a true classic server so complaining too much about balance wont help since ssg dont care.

[icefriend]

They didn't nerf morale to revive raiding on anor xD they nerfed the morale in preparation for the t5 instances. They didn't do any specific balancing for OD, the high difficulty was just a random thing.

I defenetly hope they won't cater to 1 single kinship, because that wouldn't be nice to the rest of the players.

I have come to accept that this is not a true classic server so complaining too much about balance wont help since ssg dont care.

The fact that you (and not you alone) feel jaded about ssg support is irrelevant. It's still worth to at least try and ask for proper balance. current 65 morale and damage values are great, regardless of how it came to be. The problem is it came way too late. And having a balanced instance cluster on a difficulty level close to what it was originally is definitely NOT catering to 1 single kinship.

[Rimenuir]

I defenetly hope they won't cater to 1 single kinship, because that wouldn't be nice to the rest of the players.

Buffing morale pools to bring back difficulty into the raid isn't catering to 1 single kinship. After running ToO the other night on Arkenstone, we easily undermanned it (9 players) and skipped most mechanics. Having this legendary instance be so much of a joke on t2c would be detrimental to the longevity of the LS. As previously stated, this instance cluster has the chance to bring back life into the LS. (especially if they add PvMP)

While we were using BiS gear that is unobtainable on LS (PvP gear/BB jewels/Osg armor), we were able to use a single tank for the entire run. Some of the notorious trash pulls like acid trash and shadow trash, which should require 2 tanks, we breezed through. This means we could have added 3 more DPS to our run and have missed even more mechanics.


And all thats being asked is, would you rather have a bunch of players faceroll the hardest content or have a little bit of a challenge and have players logging on every day to try and progress through LotROs greatest instance cluster?

[Onyi]

I cannot say this more clearly - T2C of the ROI Instance cluster being too easy would be an INCREDIBLE DISAPPOINT.

T2C is NOT intended for undermanning and is not intended for sight-seeing. Tier II and the Challenge are intended for RAIDING, which includes a good portion of progression. In the current state of ToO T2C there is no such thing - it's a day 1 faceroll with 9 people, an easy 6man 1 week into the expansion if not actually on day 1. That is not a raid. Not even close.

Now, I see people on here commenting that are not actually in raiding kinships on Anor - Everybody has a right to an opinion but before you comment please please ask yourself - are you actually raiding T2C actively? Or are you on here arguing for the sake of arguing about a part of the game not applicable to your actual play-style and thereby gate-keeping the experience of peolpe who have -

A) Gone through the trouble of actually joining a raiding-kinship
B) Forming relationships with other dedicated players in order to progress through the most difficult content as a team
C) Have shown up to raids EVERY WEEK to get people ready for one of the most exciting expansions in lotro-history
D) Have resubscribed to the game with the intention to (re)-experience the endgame in a respectable state - somehow, at least partially, resembling the original release of said chapter (Again, ROI - In many peoples opinion the best time of the game)

Somebody here said there is only 1 raiding kinship on Anor. I don't think that is true but what is true is that over time MANY people from different kinships have joined Mirage with the goal to raid T2C. That is what the kinship advertises and that is what is done EVERY DAY. So yes, a large portion of raiders on Anor are in Mirage BUT that is not because they arrived on Anor as Mirage, it is because over time those actually interested in raiding decided to join together to beat T2C and to prove those screaming from day 1: "IMPOSSIBRUH!!NERF!!NERF!!BROO OOKEN!!" wrong.

And lastly, I can tell you right now - If you are T2C geared/experienced and interested in beating that kind of content you can always reach out to either Ceolran, Sethuke, Isirion or any of the other officers and apply to the kin. And even if you're not geared, you are always welcome to reach out to those who are for advise in the process.

[Zarin]

I cannot say this more clearly - T2C of the ROI Instance cluster being too easy would be an INCREDIBLE DISAPPOINT.

T2C is NOT intended for undermanning and is not intended for sight-seeing. Tier II and the Challenge are intended for RAIDING, which includes a good portion of progression. In the current state of ToO T2C there is no such thing - it's a day 1 faceroll with 9 people, an easy 6man 1 week into the expansion if not actually on day 1. That is not a raid. Not even close.

Now, I see people on here commenting that are not actually in raiding kinships on Anor - Everybody has a right to an opinion but before you comment please please ask yourself - are you actually raiding T2C actively? Or are you on here arguing for the sake of arguing about a part of the game not applicable to your actual play-style and thereby gate-keeping the experience of peolpe who have -

A) Gone through the trouble of actually joining a raiding-kinship
B) Forming relationships with other dedicated players in order to progress through the most difficult content as a team
C) Have shown up to raids EVERY WEEK to get people ready for one of the most exciting expansions in lotro-history
D) Have resubscribed to the game with the intention to (re)-experience the endgame in a respectable state - somehow, at least partially, resembling the original release of said chapter (Again, ROI - In many peoples opinion the best time of the game)

Somebody here said there is only 1 raiding kinship on Anor. I don't think that is true but what is true is that over time MANY people from different kinships have joined Mirage with the goal to raid T2C. That is what the kinship advertises and that is what is done EVERY DAY. So yes, a large portion of raiders on Anor are in Mirage BUT that is not because they arrived on Anor as Mirage, it is because over time those actually interested in raiding decided to join together to beat T2C and to prove those screaming from day 1: "IMPOSSIBRUH!!NERF!!NERF!!BROO OOKEN!!" wrong.

And lastly, I can tell you right now - If you are T2C geared/experienced and interested in beating that kind of content you can always reach out to either Ceolran, Sethuke, Isirion or any of the other officers and apply to the kin. And even if you're not geared, you are always welcome to reach out to those who are for advise in the process.

I dont see how anyone can disagree with the above without being disingenuous.

[LotroVidz]

Well I hope they buff the instance/raid, but also that they don't buff it to the ridiculous levels of OD before the morale nerf. Maybe they can just revert the changes that happen with the T5 instance patch?

But as I am saying guys, SSG doesn't seem to have any clue on the balance of the legendary servers. We where lucky to have that difficulty change with the morale nerf for OD and all the instances, I'm 100% sure it wasn't intended. They refuse to communicate with us, so don't get ur hopes up.

[Frisco]

Agreed. This is a nostalgia server with a low population. Making it as difficult as OD pre-nerf (where 2 out of 6 encounters never even got cleared) would just kill off any remaining semblance of a raiding community. I'm not saying pugs should be waltzing into ToO and beating T2C, but the current state of OD is actually pretty nice. Had they launched SoM with the raids in their current state, I think the raiding population wouldn't have crashed so hard.

[azurebob99]

Agreed. This is a nostalgia server with a low population. Making it as difficult as OD pre-nerf (where 2 out of 6 encounters never even got cleared) would just kill off any remaining semblance of a raiding community. I'm not saying pugs should be waltzing into ToO and beating T2C, but the current state of OD is actually pretty nice. Had they launched SoM with the raids in their current state, I think the raiding population wouldn't have crashed so hard.

This is where I step in to point out that two of the five encounters in Orthanc weren't cleared (ignoring obvious exploits) prior to being nerfed either (well, Fire and Frost was cleared without the challenge, as it's a faceroll, but the challenge never was).

That said, I think a lot more of the attrition in the raiding population was due to the horrible state that both SoA and MoM endgame launched in (soloable raids are fun as a novelty, but do little to encourage raiding groups to form, or keep playing) than due to the level 65 instances launching a bit overtuned on tier 2. Which is not to say some people didn't take their ball and go elsewhere because the instances are too hard, as I am sure a few did, just that significantly more left after seeing the level 50/60 instances way WAY too easy, and are unwilling to give this company any more chances beyond the second one they extended by trying the legendary servers to begin with. Which of course feeds into itself in turn, as these would have been the people forming groups for OD tier 2.

Of course there are tuning options in between "completely impossible" and "10 second 6-man boss fights, what's a mechanic?", maybe SSG could give one of those a try. They could just scale morale relative to the increase in player DPS between cap 75 and now, as a start.

[Rimenuir]

This is where I step in to point out that two of the five encounters in Orthanc weren't cleared (ignoring obvious exploits) prior to being nerfed either (well, Fire and Frost was cleared without the challenge, as it's a faceroll, but the challenge never was).

Of course there are tuning options in between "completely impossible" and "10 second 6-man boss fights, what's a mechanic?", maybe SSG could give one of those a try. They could just scale morale relative to the increase in player DPS between cap 75 and now, as a start.

I agree with the second half of this statement..... The first statement is interesting to me, because I don't know what time period you're talking about.


Prior to the stat bloat of September 2018, Mirage completed a full 5/5 T2C clear with video proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUX7IzH9C7A&t=76s (Thanks Aenise)


We also cleared all wings without recording a few months back while just running bosses, so I am confused as to what time period you're talking about.

[azurebob99]

I agree with the second half of this statement..... The first statement is interesting to me, because I don't know what time period you're talking about.


Prior to the stat bloat of September 2018, Mirage completed a full 5/5 T2C clear with video proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUX7IzH9C7A&t=76s (Thanks Aenise)


We also cleared all wings without recording a few months back while just running bosses, so I am confused as to what time period you're talking about.

I'm talking about the original launch of Orthanc, back in December (December sounds right? someone correct me if I'm wrong) of 2011. Plenty of groups have cleared varyious iterations of the raid since then, but no one cleared F&F challenge prior to grims being nerfed from 5 invulnerability shields on T2 to 2 shields per grim, and no one beat Saruman AT ALL on tier 2 without exploiting before it was nerfed twice (directly by adjusting the lightning spamminess in the last phase and before that indirectly by making first ages drop at a greater than 5% rate from tier 2 fights other than Saruman).

I respect Mirage both on the legendary servers and in sticking to cap 75 raiding prior to that, and meant no offense.

[Rimenuir]

I'm talking about the original launch of Orthanc, back in December (December sounds right? someone correct me if I'm wrong) of 2011. Plenty of groups have cleared varyious iterations of the raid since then, but no one cleared F&F challenge prior to grims being nerfed from 5 invulnerability shields on T2 to 2 shields per grim, and no one beat Saruman AT ALL on tier 2 without exploiting before it was nerfed twice (directly by adjusting the lightning spamminess in the last phase and before that indirectly by making first ages drop at a greater than 5% rate from tier 2 fights other than Saruman).

I respect Mirage both on the legendary servers and in sticking to cap 75 raiding prior to that, and meant no offense.

Oh, I understand now... No offense taken at all!

Pardon the confusion on my end

[Awelina]

When i compare the morale values in Ost Dunhoth T2 with Isengard T2, it is obvoius that Isengard needs a buff.
Bosses in OD T2 have sometimes over 10 million morale, the bosses in ToO T2 have 3 million...

I looked up this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuEdeLmVsQ) from LVL 75 levelcap years ago, which is a speedrun of Acid T2C on Belegaer.
The bossfight took the group 1min 39sec to complete.
It is a group with 5 burglars (5x +10% Reveal Weakness Damage) and 2 Red Champs (red champ was very good single target dps back then).
The boss had 1.6 million morale. The burglar in the video parsed ~2.6k dps (which was obvoiusly not bad back then).

Now the Acid Boss in T2 has 3.1 million morale. DPS classes at 65 parse now 10-14k dps and occasionally even above 20k. I expect the dps even higher at LVL 75.
Bosses will take under 30 seconds to complete, not even with full groups. The bosses have no time to use their mecanics.

Anyone who doesnt see a problem here...

[Rimenuir]

Well Isengard is being released next week.... hopefully we'll see some buffs to it

[CaseyCasem]

Well Isengard is being released next week.... hopefully we'll see some buffs to it

Source?

[Onyi]

Source?

Cordovan spoke about it today on his stream.

[Druidsfire]

Cordovan spoke about it today on his stream.

With the usual caveats that it might change if something comes up at the last minute.