Hidden Nuggets we see all the time...

[truthiness]

The Fall of Edhelion is 600 years prior to LotR, The dwarf-starter is about 66 years prior to LotR, the Elf-dwarf newbie zone is 2 years prior to LotR.

OMG, so that means my elf character was over 600 years old when she finally reached Duillond, and she was still only level 8? I never knew elves were so lazy!

Thanks, Berephon, for such care with the timeline in LOTRO.

[djheydt]

OMG, so that means my elf character was over 600 years old when she finally reached Duillond, and she was still only level 8? I never knew elves were so lazy!

Thanks, Berephon, for such care with the timeline in LOTRO.

Oh yes. Right after Edhelion falls, there's a bit of narrative that says, "So, after 600 years, you finally return to Edhelion..." and you get to see how it's gone dull and bits are beginning to fall off and vines are growing all over it. But it's not laziness: remember Elves are immortal unless killed, and it's more "You have all the time in the world, with Edhelion fallen you need to go to Imladris to complete your basic education; take time to smell the roses on the way."

[Lohi]

Personally, I'm ignoring that bit about 600 years, and treating my elf as being relatively young (at most 200). Elves do occasionally have children :-)

[djheydt]

Six hundred years, for an Elf, IS young.

[Khevin]

So can we extrapolate, I think that's the right word, the age of our elves by the statement "it takes 600 years to get to lvl 8?"

If so then my elf at lvl 25 should be 1800-1900 years old? But she is a Lore-master so I'm sure she spent a lot of time studying instead of adventureing and leveling so she might actually be about 10,000 years old?

Ok, enough with the goofiness.

Seriously though what would be the oldest an elf could be if they were born in Midddle Earth?

Were the original elves made in ME or were they made in the undying lands and then came over to ME?

[djheydt]

Good question. They arose in Middle-earth, far to the east of anywhere discussed in LotR, by the shores of a lake called Cuivenien. This was before the sun and moon were created; they awoke under the stars. Melkor was already doing mischief in Middle-earth, and when the Vala Orome found them, he and his fellow Valar thought it would be a very good idea to get them the hell out of Middle-earth before Melkor could harm them. (But the damage had already begun). So Orome brought three representatives of the Eldar to Aman (the Undying Lands) so that they could speak to the Valar and behold the light of the Two Trees. They then returned to their people and urged them to migrate westward and over the Sea. Some of them were willing to go; some of them were unwilling -- some loved the beauty of Middle-earth too well to leave it; some didn't trust Orome -- and some got lost along the way; but many made their way across the Sea to Aman. Then, some good long time later (it's very hard to keep track of time in a land without sun or moon), a large number of Elves followed Feanor back across the Sea (or across the Helcaraxe, an ice bridge far to the north) and returned to Middle-earth. Galadriel was one of these.

[Berephon]

Seriously though what would be the oldest an elf could be if they were born in Midddle Earth?

To put some numbers to djheydt's response, from the beginning of the Second Age to the beginning of LotR, it's ~6400 years. Unfortunately, there is not a distinct timeline for the First Age, that I can recall, and the counting of years did not actually begin immediately.

Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Glorfindel all pre-date the Second Age.

[Cleitanious]

To put some numbers to djheydt's response, from the beginning of the Second Age to the beginning of LotR, it's ~6400 years. Unfortunately, there is not a distinct timeline for the First Age, that I can recall, and the counting of years did not actually begin immediately.

Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Glorfindel all pre-date the Second Age.

With the playable sub-races of Elf available and their relatively young beginning, what is the oldest a player Elf could be?

[Berephon]

With the playable sub-races of Elf available and their relatively young beginning, what is the oldest a player Elf could be?

The origins of the Moriquendi still go back into the First Age.

[gildhur]

The origins of the Moriquendi still go back into the First Age.

Flattering, I'm sure, but I think they only go back to 2006 sometime.

[Khevin]

Thank you everyone for your answers so far they've been helpful.

So an elf could 10,000+ years old but most likely less than 20,000? I know there is no way to get an exact accounting of the years but its nice to have a guesstimate to further define the whole LOTR universe.

Were the elves made pretty much right away after the world was made or was it a long time or is that we just do not know? I'm thinking that if the world was only made 20,000 to 30,000 years ago than LOTR is a pretty young universe at least compared to ours.

I apologise if this is a hijack since the dates are not nuggets in the game but it's helpful for me to understand the game better.

[djheydt]

So an elf could 10,000+ years old but most likely less than 20,000?

In theory, yes. However, our characters when the first start out, y'know, at level 1 in the newbie instance, are really young. Consider that they don't ask us to help defend the gate until practically everybody else is dead. They send us, first, to hide the relics in the depths of the dungeon, then, to take a message to somebody who's actually in charge of fighting. In the course of the latter job, we have to kill a couple level-not-very-much goblins and a Dourhand, and it's about as much as we can handle. So I don't know how old that makes us, twenty years or two hundred years, but we're definitely still damp behind the ears.

Note that Arwen,born T.A. 241, is over three thousand years old when we meet her and she's still a mere slip of a girl and nobody, including her father or herself, thinks she's getting a bit long in the tooth and she'd better marry somebody quick or risk becoming an old maid. (That she got engaged to Aragorn a mere sixty years ago is neither here nor there.) Three thousand is still quite a youngster.

[MataTahu]

In theory, yes. However, our characters when the first start out, y'know, at level 1 in the newbie instance, are really young. Consider that they don't ask us to help defend the gate until practically everybody else is dead. They send us, first, to hide the relics in the depths of the dungeon, then, to take a message to somebody who's actually in charge of fighting. In the course of the latter job, we have to kill a couple level-not-very-much goblins and a Dourhand, and it's about as much as we can handle. So I don't know how old that makes us, twenty years or two hundred years, but we're definitely still damp behind the ears.

Note that Arwen,born T.A. 241, is over three thousand years old when we meet her and she's still a mere slip of a girl and nobody, including her father or herself, thinks she's getting a bit long in the tooth and she'd better marry somebody quick or risk becoming an old maid. (That she got engaged to Aragorn a mere sixty years ago is neither here nor there.) Three thousand is still quite a youngster.

And on the other side of the coin (for the poster above the quoted one), take a look at the Bio I wrote for Turnilas (and by extension, Turniwen as well).. This was written several months ago, and has some modifications (in red, as I didn't want to write the whole story again):

Turnilas is a Teleri, born in the port city of Alqualondë on the eastern shores of Aman. His birth was only a few hundred years prior to the creation of Fëanor's Silmarils.

His age at the time of the march of the Noldor is perhaps enough to explain his rash behavior: in reckless rage at the First Kinslaying on the docks of Alqualondë, and having assisted in the building of several of the ships Fëanor stole, he followed Fingolfin over the dangerous passage of Helcaraxë in the north. He did this regardless of the Doom of Mandos, and that he would be counted among the exiles. Also, his twin sister Turniwen was fighting alongside him on the quays and in the confusion, ended up on one of Fëanor's stolen ships. This is probably the underlying motivation for his journey.

After a horrifying time crossing the Grinding Ice, Turnilas and the rest of the Noldor reached the shores of Middle-earth. This being his first sight of Beleriand, he fell in love with its simple beauty, even in the time of the might of Melkor. He resolved to stay, if only for a while, simply for the pleasure of living there. He also found his sister, although they were soon separated again, this time for the rest of the First Age, all of the Second, and half of the Third.

Over time he found himself living with Turgon and his folk, and once the hidden city of Gondolin was complete, he traveled to this new area with that portion of the Noldor. In Gondolin he owned and operated a popular Inn in the lower levels of the city, and his beer is famed to this day.

It should be noted that Turnilas, while skilled in combat as many of the Eldar were, did not participate in the major battles of the First Age. He may have wielded bow and sword when necessary, but never as part of a large army.


During the sack of Gondolin by Melkor, Turnilas volunteered to lead a group of refugees out through a hidden mountain pass, accompanied by Lord Glorfindel of the House of the Golden Flower. They were eventually spotted, and many songs have been sung of the battle of Glorfindel and the Balrog, in which Glorfindel cast his enemy far below to his death, and yet was killed himself.
Dismayed though they were at the loss of such a strong leader, Turnilas was able to move most of his group out of the pass and down into the plains of Beleriand, eventually reaching the woodland realm of Doriath and obtaining the help of King Thingol. After seeing to the safety of the refugees, Turnilas turned away from the constant danger in Beleriand and fled south to Lindon. During this time Turniwen was out and about, killing orcs... [I haven't really fleshed out her story yet]

Turnilas lived for many, many years in the Refuge of Edhelion, all through the Second Age after the War of Wrath, and throughout much of the Third Age. He had very little interest in the surrounding world at this point, and spent his time the way the Eldar would, singing, crafting, and (for him, of course), brewing. Most of his skill in combat became rusty during this period of several thousand years. During the Third Age, Turniwen was a participant in the battles at Fornost. She was [terribly wounded/knocked in the head/something ] and lost her memory and combat skill, and was comatose for several years. She was brought to Edhelion where her brother cared for her.

When the Refuge was sacked about 600 years prior to the War of the Ring**, he took part in its defence. After this event, he went with Elrond and lived in Imladris until the present time, when an urge to explore the world awoke in his heart.

Turnilas began by visiting his old home in Edhelion, and started to practice his hunting skills once again. We have now come to the part of the story we know: He has become known as an agent of Good in Eriador, and his skill with bow and knife is, while not unmatched, definitely deadly. Though he may in time sue for the Valar's pardon (and portage back to Aman) for his rash decision on the shores of Alqualondë, surrounded by the bodies of his kinsmen, for the time being he is content to stay in Middle-earth and fight the evil that is arising once again.

As you can see, I explain away the fact that we're all level 1 in Edhelion by saying Turnilas had not fought for thousands of years, and Turniwen had been concussed or something. Just to show that you don't HAVE to be one of them crazy Elves who never saw the Trees.

[somervillechangeling]

So has anyone else spotted little golden nuggets like this elsewhere?

Well, the Inklings occasionally met at a pub called the Eagle and Child but they jokingly called it the Bird and Baby. When I saw the B&B in the Shire, it was cute, but when an NPC said the name should be changed to something more serious like "The Eagle and Child" it really made my day.

[ilikeham49]

i dont know if this hidden nugget was mentioned before but i found one. whlie reading fotr i read a desscusion between frodo and strider while they we in the troll shawls frodo had asked whi had built some towers he saw aragorn replies and says something about some men who fell under the shadow of angmar. this was intresting to me because our game is called lotro shadows of angmar. and one of our enimies are/is hillmen

[raccoon_king]

To put some numbers to djheydt's response, from the beginning of the Second Age to the beginning of LotR, it's ~6400 years. Unfortunately, there is not a distinct timeline for the First Age, that I can recall, and the counting of years did not actually begin immediately.

Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Glorfindel all pre-date the Second Age.

Just to clear things up a little, the First Age began when the Sun rose for the first time and it ended with the War of Wrath. The First Age is approximately 580 years long. The Elves first awoke during the Years of the Trees, and unfortunately we don't have a specific date for them. The oldest Elves could predate the First Age by as much as 15,000 years

The oldest documented Elf still in Middle-earth is Cirdan. We don't know how old he is, but he has a beard which means he's very old.

Oh, and Berephon, it'll be awesome seeing Cirdan with a beard when we finally get to the Grey Havens.

[djheydt]

Hm. And Gandalf has a beard, of course, and he first came to Middle-Earth in "maybe" T.A. 1000. But then Gandalf is neither Elf nor Man; he is a Maia given a corporeal form for the special purposes for which he was sent. Whether he was bearded when he arrived on our shores is not to be determined by us --

What song the sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions, are not beyond all conjecture.
-- Thomas Browne, Hydriotaphia or Urn-Burial

Though we may get a clue from his description early in Fellowship:

Gandalf was thinking of a spring, nearly eighty years before, when Bilbo had run out of Bag End without a handkerchief. His hair was perhaps whiter than it had been then, and his beard and eyebrows were perhaps longer, and his face more lined with care and wisdom ...

So it would appear that the passage of time has some slight effect on him, so that perhaps when he first set foot on Middle-earth his beard was no more than a dapper little Elizabethan goatee.

[ThePhobos]

All this talk about ages, especially how Gandalf may have aged over time, got me to thinking about something that I always wondered about.

When Bilbo takes The Ring from Gollum he essentially freezes himself in time so that he doesn't age. There are all sorts of comments about how Bilbo doesn't look to be 111 or however old he is (I'm not that lore knowledgeable, hence my question) which is attributed to the Ring delaying his life. When he gives the Ring to Frodo and we next see Bilbo he has aged a lot.

My question is though....... why doesn't Gollum age the way Bilbo did? Bilbo had that ring for many many years, but in the 13 months I believe it is since Frodo takes the Ring to destroy it Bilbo ages a lot. I would have thought Gollum would have experienced the same effect but he doesn't.

How come?

[TheScyphozoa]

I think it's because he was with the ring so long that its effects last longer on him after the ring leaves him.

[thinkingbear]

but in the 13 months I believe it is since Frodo takes the Ring to destroy it Bilbo ages a lot.

We don't see Bilbo again until after the Ring is destroyed and I would bet most of his aging during that time came after the Ring went into the fire. I imagine Gollum would have shown the same rapid aging, maybe even withered to the point of death, had he somehow survived the ring's destruction.

[AgamemnonV1]

Well, for one, Gollum earned the ring in a different manner than Bilbo did. Biblo simply found it on innocent pretenses; Gollum murdered his cousin Deagol for it and the ring corrupted his heart easily. There's also the bit where he had been holding on to it for 500 years in a dark cavern feeding off of nothing but fish and the occasional goblin living all alone. Bilbo's heart had always been pure and innocent and he never saw the ring as nothing more than a toy--until he was faced with actually having to part with it.

[ThePhobos]

We don't see Bilbo again until after the Ring is destroyed and I would bet most of his aging during that time came after the Ring went into the fire. I imagine Gollum would have shown the same rapid aging, maybe even withered to the point of death, had he somehow survived the ring's destruction.

Actually, I seem to remember, at least in the movies, that when the Fellowship is in Rivendell before they are actually formed as a Fellowship that Frodo meets up with Bilbo there and he lunges as Frodo to take the Ring. Isn't this also when he gets his mithril shirt and Sting?

[djheydt]

Actually, I seem to remember, at least in the movies, that when the Fellowship is in Rivendell before they are actually formed as a Fellowship that Frodo meets up with Bilbo there and he lunges as Frodo to take the Ring. Isn't this also when he gets his mithril shirt and Sting?

Bilbo left the Ring, along with (almost) all his other worldly goods, to Frodo when he left the shire right after his eleventy-first birthday party. He said to Gandalf that that was what having a birthday party, including giving away a lot of stuff, was all about -- to make it easier to give up the Ring too. In the end it didn't make it much easier, but under Gandalf's gentle urging, he gave it up anyway and went off to Rivendell.

Nineteen years passed, during which Sauron gained in power, but the Ring didn't gain much, chiefly (I think) because Frodo *didn't use it*, as Gandalf had warned him. During Frodo's journey to Rivendell Frodo did use the Ring several times, once in the presence of the Nazgul, and it began (so to speak) to wake up. By the time Frodo arrived in Rivendell, the Ring had enough power to tempt Bilbo just a little, and to make Frodo see Bilbo as a little creepy thing out to steal his precious. Note that BIlbo didn't try to snatch the ring, but he was looking at it and it seemed to Frodo as if he were about to snatch it. It was the beginning, or the near-beginning, of its attempt to corrupt Frodo, which was so much hampered by "the seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, waiting for some final and desperate danger to make it grow."

[MataTahu]

Bilbo left the Ring, along with (almost) all his other worldly goods

To expand upon your (almost), the Mithril shirt and Sting were given to Frodo in Rivendell.

[djheydt]

To expand upon your (almost), the Mithril shirt and Sting were given to Frodo in Rivendell.

Exactly. Those, plus his book and his maps and his notes, and the old stained green cloak and hood that Dwalin had given him when Thorin's party originally set out, and some other bits and bobs that Tolkien didn't bother to mention, Bilbo took with him when he left.