Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

[Sylux14]

Berephon, second question, is there any Sindarin, Khuzdul, Westron, or Quenya word for "destroyer of all"?

[Reddhawk]

Berephon, second question, is there any Sindarin, Khuzdul, Westron, or Quenya word for "destroyer of all"?

Wow, that's a tough one. I'm interested to see what Berephon comes up with. The only thing I could come up with was:

Pandagnir (All-slayer).

There doesn't seem to be a word for destroyer, so slayer (dagnir) seems to be the closest thing to it. Pandagnir may not be a fully correct rendering, since I couldn't determine whether any mutations were needed or not. Anyways, there's my attempt in Sindarin.

[Cleitanious]

Berephon, second question, is there any Sindarin, Khuzdul, Westron, or Quenya word for "destroyer of all"?

Yes, the sindarin word for "destroyer of all" is, "adaneth"

[Reddhawk]

Yes, the sindarin word for "destroyer of all" is, "adaneth"

Now that's clever.

[StarSeekerVDS]

Hm... I wonder if I should change my surnames on my elf chicks.

Dark-eyed?
Swift-arrow?
Dream-singer?
Star-sparking?

[lastalliance]

What does Cargûl mean in the Black-Speech? I know Gûl is BS for wraith but BS doesn't even seen to use words that start with "C", at least not in the dictionary I found.

Actually, Nazg (ring) and Ul (wraith) make up Nazgul. "Gul" is Sindarin for sorcery, I believe, and "Car" would be red.

[Reddhawk]

What does Cargûl mean in the Black-Speech? I know Gûl is BS for wraith but BS doesn't even seen to use words that start with "C", at least not in the dictionary I found.

Actually, Nazg (ring) and Ul (wraith) make up Nazgul. "Gul" is Sindarin for sorcery, I believe, and "Car" would be red.

Actually, he was right, "gûl" is typically translated as "wraith". "Ul" translates to "them" in Black Speech. It is definitely Black Speech, though, and not Sindarin, because there is no word for "ring" in Tolkien's existing Sindarin lexicon. Some scholars have suggested the word for "ring" in Sindarin would be "corf" as determined from its Quenya cognate "corma". However, since this word was not part of the lexicon devised by Tolkien himself, it is only considered Neo-Sindarin. For this reason, we know through the use of the word "nazg" in the original name of the ringwraiths, that the name is taken from Black Speech.

Also, the word "car" in Sindarin means "house" or "building". The Sindarin word for "red" is "caran" or "naru". There are a few other words that can be used, but they hold a slightly different connotation. For instance, you can use the word "ruin", but it refers more to "fiery red". Also, there's "born", but that means "red" in more of the "red hot" sense. Finally, there's "coll", but that specifically refers to "golden red".

That being said, I do agree that cargûl likely means "Redwraith". Since "red" is translated in Sindarin as "caran" and in Quenya as "carne", the word "car" is almost certainly etymologically linked. Tolkien was known for deriving the words of his languages from common ancestral languages. That's why certain words in Sindarin bear a strong resemblance to words in Quenya. I imagine this is also the case with Black Speech.

[Berephon]

What does Cargûl mean in the Black-Speech? I know Gûl is BS for wraith but BS doesn't even seen to use words that start with "C", at least not in the dictionary I found.

First, remember that if you found a dictionary of Black Speech, it was invented by a third party. I've only found a handful of words that the Professor actually created. Carn Dûm, for instance, is very likely Black Speech.

To answer your question, Cargûl is Red Wraith.

EDIT: Also, to Reddhawk. Yep, you're right, but also remember that Black Speech is corrupted from the Elf-dialects, so there tends to be a lot of crossover (mutilated, but similar words.) Gûl, as you pointed out, means dark sorcery in Sindarin and wraith in Black Speech, but it was not coincidence.

Second EDIT: Oh, heh, yeah, you basically already said the same thing.

[Berephon]

Berephon, second question, is there any Sindarin, Khuzdul, Westron, or Quenya word for "destroyer of all"?

Well, Westron would be "Destroyer of All." I'm sure I could devise something in our pseudo-Khuzdul, but given that I am going to be quite busy for a while, don't expect something soon. Quenya, I am not familiar enough with. Sindarin, I wish! There don't seem to be very many "destructive" words in Sindarin, destroyer specifically.

[premac]

Is Westmund a good name for a Minstrel from Rohan????

[Sylux14]

Well, Westron would be "Destroyer of All." I'm sure I could devise something in our pseudo-Khuzdul, but given that I am going to be quite busy for a while, don't expect something soon. Quenya, I am not familiar enough with. Sindarin, I wish! There don't seem to be very many "destructive" words in Sindarin, destroyer specifically.

Bah, that's right, Westron is common tounge. Is the "all-ender" mentioned the only close word?

[Laire]

Yes, the sindarin word for "destroyer of all" is, "adaneth"

Yes, fear the power of the Adaneth (it's too early to try and figure out the collective plural of that... adanethrim?)

I named my legendary Axe Burkubarazbund, but now i got a Lengendary sword and I want to name it something similar. Can anyone help with this?

P.S. what is dwarvish for Step-child

The difficulty with Dwarvish is that it was kept a very secretive language, so what this game (and also the movies) have had to do is basically create more language based on what little Tolkien gave us. Here's a wordlist of known words in Khuzdul/Dwarvish, at the bottom of the page.

[Laire]

Well, Westron would be "Destroyer of All."

Actually, what Tolkien provided us in LOTR was a translation of the work *from* Westron, apparently. For instance, while the Gamgee name in the English translation is Gamgee, in actual Westron it's Galbasi. Hobbit is kuduk in the hobbit dialect, and banakil is 'halfling' as used by Men. It's at the end of Appendix F, and I know there are more translations in the Peoples of Middle-earth.

[lastalliance]

Actually, he was right, "gûl" is typically translated as "wraith". "Ul" translates to "them" in Black Speech. It is definitely Black Speech, though, and not Sindarin, because there is no word for "ring" in Tolkien's existing Sindarin lexicon. Some scholars have suggested the word for "ring" in Sindarin would be "corf" as determined from its Quenya cognate "corma". However, since this word was not part of the lexicon devised by Tolkien himself, it is only considered Neo-Sindarin. For this reason, we know through the use of the word "nazg" in the original name of the ringwraiths, that the name is taken from Black Speech.

Also, the word "car" in Sindarin means "house" or "building". The Sindarin word for "red" is "caran" or "naru". There are a few other words that can be used, but they hold a slightly different connotation. For instance, you can use the word "ruin", but it refers more to "fiery red". Also, there's "born", but that means "red" in more of the "red hot" sense. Finally, there's "coll", but that specifically refers to "golden red".

That being said, I do agree that cargûl likely means "Redwraith". Since "red" is translated in Sindarin as "caran" and in Quenya as "carne", the word "car" is almost certainly etymologically linked. Tolkien was known for deriving the words of his languages from common ancestral languages. That's why certain words in Sindarin bear a strong resemblance to words in Quenya. I imagine this is also the case with Black Speech.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't saying that Nazgul is Sindarin, but that Cargul is (I'm not sure anymore. Maybe the Black Speech for "red" is similar to the Sindarin).

"Ash nazg durbatuluk..." It's easy to remember that "nazg" is Black Speech for ring.

Isn't Sindarin for "house" "bar?" I don't remember any cars... perhaps I'm wrong.

[Reddhawk]

Yes, fear the power of the Adaneth (it's too early to try and figure out the collective plural of that... adanethrim?)

Well, I think a standard plural form would work in that case. In non-final syllables a becomes e. And, in the final syllable e becomes i. Thus, we get:

s. Adaneth = pl. Edenith


Collective nouns are typically formed with the suffix -ath. The word rim means "host", so the suffix -rim is used for the specific meaning "people of". As for a collective plural form of adaneth, I don't think such a form would be needed. Indeed, there is no such form for the Sindarin "man", adan. There is the plural form edain, and the collective form adanath. So for women, adaneth, the plural is edenith and the collective form would merely take the suffix -ath.

So, the collective form of adaneth could be rendered as adanethath. Of course, the double "th" seems awkward. While I'm no expert in these matters, I would imagine that the first "th" would be mutated to "d", resulting in a more aesthetically pleasing:

Adanedath


If we really needed a collective plural (which I don't think we do), then I would imagine the final outcome would be: Edenedath. In this case, the third "e" remains, rather than becoming "i", because it is no longer in the final syllable.


But, overall I'd say these would be the only acceptable forms:

s. Adaneth
pl. Edenith
coll. Adanedath

Actually, what Tolkien provided us in LOTR was a translation of the work *from* Westron, apparently.

That's correct. There is an actual Westron language, but for the purposes of the book (and this game) it is presented through its English translation.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't saying that Nazgul is Sindarin, but that Cargul is (I'm not sure anymore. Maybe the Black Speech for "red" is similar to the Sindarin).

Yeah, I suppose Cargul could be interpreted as Sindarin, but I think it makes more sense if viewed as a word in the Black Speech. As stated, "car" does not mean "red" in Sindarin. It is, however, similar to the Sindarin "caran", which is why I assumed that "car" could be a related Black Speech word for "red". I figured that BS: car, Q: carne, and S: caran all stemmed from some earlier, ancestral language.

Isn't Sindarin for "house" "bar?" I don't remember any cars... perhaps I'm wrong.

Yes, "bar" or "mbar" is also a word for "house", but so is "car". It's just a simple case of synonyms.

[Berephon]

Hm... I wonder if I should change my surnames on my elf chicks.

Dark-eyed?
Swift-arrow?
Dream-singer?
Star-sparking?

In order:

1. Dolheneb, Dúrheneb, Graheneb, Morcheneb
2. Celegaeg, Celegnas, Celegnaith, Celegdil, Lagoraeg, Lagornas, Lagornaith, Lagorthil, Leginaeg, Leginnas, Leginnath, Legindil, Lintaeg, Lintnas, Lintnaith, or Lintdil
3. Olin (or Olind)
4. Elthint, Elthinu (star-spark)

[Berephon]

Is Westmund a good name for a Minstrel from Rohan????

It's certainly legitimate.

[Berephon]

As for Cargûl, I can say with certainty that Cargûl is Black Speech, as I had a hand in creating it. The roots are Carn (from Carn Dûm, which we know is *not* Sindarin or Quenya, and based on one proposed definition of the name that made Carn "red," derivative of Caran and Carnë) and Gûl (wraith). It should be noted that we have not found an official definition or origin of Carn Dûm, so we made a judgment call based off what data was available.

[Pellegro]

Hehe. Delu (deadly), Avorn (fast), Meren (Jouyous)

Delumerenavor. Avorndelumeren. Ouch.

Thank you!

I think I'll throw-aside any hopes of the double-entendre on allegro, and just go with Merendelu and/or Deluavor.

Which brings up an interesting aside ... Does Elvish enjoy any double-entendres? Homonyms or even homographs or homophones?

[andulinde]

Berephon et al,

Is Naralagos passable for "Firestorm" as a surname for a MoNF-specced LM? Naur (nar-) "flame" + alagos, "storm of wind".

Actually, if there was a concise way to express fiery-flashing-wind-and-electrical-storm, it'd be kind of funny.

[Berephon]

Berephon et al,

Is Naralagos passable for "Firestorm" as a surname for a MoNF-specced LM? Naur (nar-) "flame" + alagos, "storm of wind".

Actually, if there was a concise way to express fiery-flashing-wind-and-electrical-storm, it'd be kind of funny.

It would be Noralagos. Concise? In Sindarin?

[Reddhawk]

Which brings up an interesting aside ... Does Elvish enjoy any double-entendres? Homonyms or even homographs or homophones?

It doesn't really fit the bill of any of the things you've mentioned, but one example of wordplay in Elvish that comes to mind is the similarities between the words for "listen" and "leaf".


The Lost Road and Other Writings, Etymologies:

LAS¹- *lassē leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lasskwelēne), cf. Q Narqelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lassē 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)

LAS²- listen. N lhaw ears (of one person), old dual *lasū--whence singular lhewig. Q. lár, lasta- listen; lasta listening, hearing--Lastalaika 'sharp-ears', a name, cf. N Lhathleg. N lhathron hearer, listener, eavesdropper (< *la(n)sro-ndo); lhathro or lhathrado listen in, eavesdrop."

As indicated by the note in the etymologies, the reason for this connection is that elven ears are typically described as being "leaf-shaped". Thus, a connection between the ears and their use in listening has been made to the word leaf.

[BlackFrances]

Used 'Laerhith" as surname for our family of toons. Was shooting for 'Summer Mist'. Did we hit it?
Also, have a LI Staff named "Tasarion Root". Appropriate? Not sure if there has been much detail ever provided on what type of wood the Istari staff's were made from, so I shot in the dark (willow, right?).

Thanks!

[Reddhawk]

Used 'Laerhith" as surname for our family of toons. Was shooting for 'Summer Mist'. Did we hit it?

Yep, except that in compounds dipthongs typically simplify, meaning it would have been:

Lárhith

Of course, I think this is more of a traditional convention than a formal rule, so you should be fine.

[Berephon]

Used 'Laerhith" as surname for our family of toons. Was shooting for 'Summer Mist'. Did we hit it?
Also, have a LI Staff named "Tasarion Root". Appropriate? Not sure if there has been much detail ever provided on what type of wood the Istari staff's were made from, so I shot in the dark (willow, right?).

Thanks!

Right roots. Laerchist. The h- mutates to ch- following r or vowels.