Floon: Any chance that trip will actually use the trip animation again?

[floon]

Usually people aren't told about a particular choice, though. What they're told is that "we had tough choices to make, and X was cut or scaled back to free up time for Other Good Features". So they're being asked to sacrifice something specific they know they'd enjoy in order to get something vague and unknown that they're unsure they would.

Let's be even more fair: you're being told you're sacrificing something, you don't get to choose.

There's just no way to compare the difficulties of tasks in a meaningful way, to really put it to a vote. I'm relying on you guys to know that we work like lunatics to get new stuff into the game, and get broken things fixed. Everyone here is really busy. No one hates Burglars, or Champions, or Hunters, no one wants to punish players by sending them on impossible missions, no one here is eating peeled grapes when they should be adding content. We add the content that we know we can add, in the time we have, that does the most for the game for the widest possible set of players. When something minor changes? It was probably low-hanging fruit, an easy change that could be done with a little extra effort, without causing a ton of work that has to get scheduled. It means a dev was working extra hard, doing their scheduled stuff, and then going above and beyond.

That's how we live our work lives. There is no way to convey to you why Choice A was favored over Choices B-Z, because the interactions of tasks within the dev team are just too complicated. The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

[Feybobiam]

Let's be even more fair: you're being told you're sacrificing something, you don't get to choose.

There's just no way to compare the difficulties of tasks in a meaningful way, to really put it to a vote. I'm relying on you guys to know that we work like lunatics to get new stuff into the game, and get broken things fixed. Everyone here is really busy. No one hates Burglars, or Champions, or Hunters, no one wants to punish players by sending them on impossible missions, no one here is eating peeled grapes when they should be adding content. We add the content that we know we can add, in the time we have, that does the most for the game for the widest possible set of players. When something minor changes? It was probably low-hanging fruit, an easy change that could be done with a little extra effort, without causing a ton of work that has to get scheduled. It means a dev was working extra hard, doing their scheduled stuff, and then going above and beyond.

That's how we live our work lives. There is no way to convey to you why Choice A was favored over Choices B-Z, because the interactions of tasks within the dev team are just too complicated. The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

This is why I love Floon.

Devs don't get a whole lot of love, no matter which way you cut the pie, especially those that are active on the forums (where "active" varies in meaning from person to person...), but I just wanna say that I fully appreciate what you guys are doing. From projects I've worked on in the past, I can completely understand where you guys are at and know that it's thankless, but it sure feels good at the end of the day.

Just wanted to give you all a pat on the back and say keep up the good work. Turbine does a lot of good to our favourite little MMO. /thumbup

That doesn't mean the game is perfect, either. But it sure is good. Thanks again, Turbine. Keep on keeping on.

[pdtohk]

Let's be even more fair: you're being told you're sacrificing something, you don't get to choose.

There's just no way to compare the difficulties of tasks in a meaningful way, to really put it to a vote. I'm relying on you guys to know that we work like lunatics to get new stuff into the game, and get broken things fixed. Everyone here is really busy. No one hates Burglars, or Champions, or Hunters, no one wants to punish players by sending them on impossible missions, no one here is eating peeled grapes when they should be adding content. We add the content that we know we can add, in the time we have, that does the most for the game for the widest possible set of players. When something minor changes? It was probably low-hanging fruit, an easy change that could be done with a little extra effort, without causing a ton of work that has to get scheduled. It means a dev was working extra hard, doing their scheduled stuff, and then going above and beyond.

That's how we live our work lives. There is no way to convey to you why Choice A was favored over Choices B-Z, because the interactions of tasks within the dev team are just too complicated. The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

Can I have an armadillo?

[MrTyres]

The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

But... but... why can't I have fedora-wearing Armadillos doing battle against the Allied Fruit Nation?

OR



In an emergancy situation, the only thing that survives is the Fedora.

{Don't Adjust your dials, just a stray diversion at Floon's most elequent phrasing. I know you do art, but have you thought of quest writing? }

[Deusdictum]

Let's be even more fair: you're being told you're sacrificing something, you don't get to choose.

...

There is no way to convey to you why Choice A was favored over Choices B-Z, because the interactions of tasks within the dev team are just too complicated. The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

Well, gosh Floon. This is your problem. It sounds like you're not giving me what I want and you're trying to be rational. Pfft. For future reference, all decisions on dev priorities may be correctly made by consulting me and catering to my desires. Screw those other people.

Added bonus: This would be much easier than finding an armadillo in Massachusetts and more environmentally friendly than importing out of season fruit.

HTH.

[LlamaDraco]

...no one here is eating peeled grapes when they should be adding content.

I acquired this invoice for crates of pre-peeled grapes through a Freedom of Information Act request. The signature is a little scribbly, but the experts I've consulted agree that it says "Floon". Furthermore, I've come across some EPA reports indicating Turbine is illegally dumping unfinished game content in storm sewers around Westwood.

Not accusing anyone of anything, mind you, but this looks pretty fishy.

(In all seriousness, I enjoy your real-world looks into the game dev world. Thanks!)

[brasswire12]

All of which is why I'd love to see a features survey that let people pick a basket of features they'd like to see, giving them a list of items with their costs in "points". If players had to spend those limited number of points themselves, I suspect they'd often pick fairly differently than if they got to just sit back and say "we want it all", blissfully unaware of what it costs to do anything.

Pretty sure they already do something like this. Don't remember the exact wording, but I got an email survey from Turbine a couple months ago and one of the questions had you rank which features you considered most important to least important.

[Khafar]

There's just no way to compare the difficulties of tasks in a meaningful way, to really put it to a vote.

I understand that, and I'm not suggesting that you can literally tell people that because we cut A, we were able to do B, C, and D. At least... not most of the time. I've been a developer myself for even longer than you have. My first paid programming job (in High School) was in 1976, so by gaming standards... I'm ancient.

I'm just trying to explain why so many people complain about the choices you guys make - they (we) don't understand what the tradeoffs were, what's been purchased with some particular sacrifice, whether it be a feature postponed, scaled back, or cut altogether. The see a concrete loss and an uncertain gain.

Khafar

[Khafar]

Pretty sure they already do something like this.

Rankings still don't get at what I'm suggesting, because they don't factor in the cost. What I'm saying is that I'd love to see them list 50 highly requested features, putting a point cost on each, from 1 (for minor things) to 100 (for things that will take many man-years). You have 100 points to spend. Do you pick one huge new high-cost feature? Or do you pick one or two mid-cost features and half a dozen smaller ones?

For example, what if Housing 2.0 cost 80 points? How many people would really choose that one huge feature instead of other things they really want? What are they willing to forego in order to get it? Mounted combat? Skirmishes? Better customization and utility in crafting? Major improvements to PvMP or raids?

I think the results of such a poll would be very interesting.

Khafar

[MeriiGrrwise]

Sorry Floon, what you said is just a cop out. It all boils down to developers incorrect understanding of what's fun in the game.

Make a list, weigh it with opportunity costs, compare the answers from developers and the vocal forum minority and the silent majority. It wont be the same list. Thats why you need a fun director stopping developers from doing things that increase consistency and reduce fun.

[Goibhnie]

In any case, I was under the impression that Trip had a unique anim. I'll check the scripts tomorrow, and make sure my reasoning is correct (or not).

Floon, any chance you can let us in on what you found out and whether or not it will be reverted or otherwise?

My thought is if there are mobs you don't want toppled over like a sleeping Auroch then you could use the default stun animation for it. I guess I'm a little confused as to why not have the animation if the rigs for most of the mobs are shared and already have the trip animation. I understand the new unique monsters not getting them, being an issue as you've illustrated above.

Does it have something to do with a little extra delay when they are getting up and you guys feel it is unfair stun time? I hope not cause there are plenty of "waking up" animations for PCs that I feel should be let go as well if that is the case.

Thanks for weighing in on this subject and expanding your answers so that the community gets a glimpse into decision making for your work. I appreciate at it even if the answer isn't giving what I want.

[Silesia]

Cheers for taking the time to try and explain how this works to the community Floon. Some of us have enough experience and/or rationality to understand what you are saying, others will continue to complain and be stuck on why things don't happen their way. I don't envy you having to deal with the second crew given their demonstrated behavior in these forums.

Thanks again and please don't give up on providing feedback - there are plenty of us who appreciate it and understand where you are coming from. I smile every time I see one of you guys put yourselves out there and try to tell it like it is.

[Thane9]

Let's be even more fair: you're being told you're sacrificing something, you don't get to choose.

There's just no way to compare the difficulties of tasks in a meaningful way, to really put it to a vote. I'm relying on you guys to know that we work like lunatics to get new stuff into the game, and get broken things fixed. Everyone here is really busy. No one hates Burglars, or Champions, or Hunters, no one wants to punish players by sending them on impossible missions, no one here is eating peeled grapes when they should be adding content. We add the content that we know we can add, in the time we have, that does the most for the game for the widest possible set of players. When something minor changes? It was probably low-hanging fruit, an easy change that could be done with a little extra effort, without causing a ton of work that has to get scheduled. It means a dev was working extra hard, doing their scheduled stuff, and then going above and beyond.

That's how we live our work lives. There is no way to convey to you why Choice A was favored over Choices B-Z, because the interactions of tasks within the dev team are just too complicated. The cost comparisons are between apples, oranges, mangoes, armadillos, and fedoras: there's just no way to break it down so easily.

Well put. I just have a problem when the gameplay I enjoy is changed and removed for gameplay I don't enjoy.

The combat mechanics and "feel" were REALLy fun in SoA. It's why I bought the lifetime. It's why my friends and I stuck with LotRO when there were/are plenty of other options out there not only for my money, but more importantly for my time.

IMHO, Champions in particular have had their "feel" changed neary beyond repair. And from what I hear about SoM it's only going to get worse.

I sincerely thank you for all the hard work you do. That fact should NOT be ignored. But it's the "fixing what ain't broke" that gets to me. And this seems to be just another example of that. /shrug. I know you NEED to implement new bells and whistles to get new subscribers and give the marketing gurus stuff to put in their adds, but I'd rather have the "fun" gameplay back and not have whole new resource hogging systems that are new.

Work hard to keep the game entertaining yes. But don't forget why your loyal customers have been paying so far.

[cicdle]

I love floon answers as much as the next guy, but I felt like I was listening to a politician dodge a question more than an answer (which is very unusual with floon answers). What did you find out about the removal of the trip animation floon? We know it is still in the game for all the mobs because warden's ambush does it.

[Silverlocket]

I'm relying on you guys to know that we work like lunatics

Floon, I've always assumed you guys work like lunatics. And play like lunatics. And eat and drink like lunatics. And . . .


Wait. There seems to be a theme here.


SL

[immessedup17]

Thanks Floon, for making sure Turbine's customers know that we aren't **** and aren't capable of deciding which features we value and which features we don't. Sure glad I bought the lifetime, its like a free ticket to a trainwreck now. If the game rebounds and turns out nice when all is said and done, I can be here. If it continues on this path though...I can still look at the forums for daily entertainment.

[fenwe]

Sorry Floon, what you said is just a cop out. It all boils down to developers incorrect understanding of what's fun in the game.

Do you realize that everyone has a different idea of "fun"? Some folks love an encounter to be nearly impossible to beat, other folks want it fairly easy. Both folks want to have "fun". Some folks want to spar and want the classes balanced against each other, other folks don't want their tunes messed with for something that they never do. A well written MMO has to take a whole different set of personalities into account when they are designing/creating "fun" stuff.

The other thing that you are failing to take into account is that many things must also be "balanced" from a technical perspective. If it take 1000 hours to implement something then that something better apeal to a very wide range of player types and if the thing implemented breaks a lot of other things that would also take many hours to fix, then it becomes that much less likely to be done. When writing and fixing code, one must understand that it is very often a ripple effect. Changing one thing may very well change something else, sometimes accidentily. It isn't a cop out to talk about the realities involved.

[Tokomak]

Ahhh.... Time for this again....

[rent85]

Can we please see a response to this person's post?

Yes, see this thread (along with LOTROSystem's ridiculous cop out answers):

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=272627



This. Every mob already has a knocked down animation, as warden's ambush and guardian's Turn the Tables still employ a knockdown animation.

The reason Trip was changed was one of two things (or combination of both):

a) a misguided but well-intentioned attempt to make all FM's "look the same" for "previously confused players." Personally I don't know what the confusion is about: if it's an FM there is a wheel on your screen; otherwise it's not.

b) a deliberate effort to nerf the Trip + Exploit Opening chain stun while passing it off as a "cosmetic only change"

Floon, let me make one last appeal to both your artistic and rational sides: how does it look elegant or make any sense if a mob gets Ambushed by a Warden (knockdown state) and then a burglar comes in and trips the mob before the knockdown expires and forces them to their feet for the regular stun animation?

Tripping a fallen mob = forcing them to stand up??? No sense at all. I see LOTROSystems definitely succeeded in reducing confusion.

After reading through all this trip animation stuff, I just get this impression: Trip animation was changed from the mob falling over to normal conjunction animations (stand there look dizzy) to bring it into line with other conjunctions. What line is this? Why? Why choose bringing into line over an animation that is so popular? I just don't get it after reading through all this apparently directionless posting.

Also. May we please get a response to this:

I love floon answers as much as the next guy, but I felt like I was listening to a politician dodge a question more than an answer (which is very unusual with floon answers). What did you find out about the removal of the trip animation floon? We know it is still in the game for all the mobs because warden's ambush does it.

I just don't get why trip's animation was changed.

[Smiling_Bandit]

.... ah.... There are any number of things to work on and you decided to use company time and resources to change the trip animation?

That is a foolish change.

I appreciate the open communication you have given us Floon so I won't comment anything about your response here. But additional info you could give would be greatly appreciated.

SB

[floon]

I appreciate the open communication you have given us Floon so I won't comment anything about your response here. But additional info you could give would be greatly appreciated.

I found out: it was changed based on feedback, to make conjunction starters less confusing. Apparently this was discussed in forums before, at length.

So I'm fine with that: to the extent that it makes the game less enjoyable for some of you, there's another segment of folks who appreciate the change. Thus the difficulty of our jobs, trying to thread the path to please as many folks as possible. The easy retort is, "Well, you didn't please *me* with that change," to which I say, "Yeah, I just covered that."

Not everything can be seen as wonderful for everyone: we don't do these things to make folks mad, we do them for the overall health of the game, where more people can get more benefit more of the time. When changes like this affect you personally, and you don't like them, that can be hard to see. We're never happy about making a change that folks will generally not see the value in immediately, if ever. That we make them anyway should indicate that there was a decent reason.

[Goibhnie]

I found out: it was changed based on feedback, to make conjunction starters less confusing. Apparently this was discussed in forums before, at length.

So I'm fine with that: to the extent that it makes the game less enjoyable for some of you, there's another segment of folks who appreciate the change. Thus the difficulty of our jobs, trying to thread the path to please as many folks as possible. The easy retort is, "Well, you didn't please *me* with that change," to which I say, "Yeah, I just covered that."

Okay, I don't recall the threads on this, but say if it was so then it is. And if the current burg population, which it directly effects, say they'd like it back could you please consider changing it? Throw up a survey. Send the survey to the burgs that have 60s. It directly effects the burgs fun factor.

[Swiftstrike]

there's another segment of folks who appreciate the change.

A segment of folks that apparently only includes LOTROSystems. You can argue about self selection of posters, but in that 8 page thread where it was discussed at length, every single person agreed it was an arbitrary and contrived change that if anything, increased confusion. 8 pages across 2 weeks is a lot of time for some dissenter or devil's advocate to come by, but they didn't. Maybe there should be another feedback survey about this.

Also, maybe you can address the animation issue of why Tripping a knocked down mob that's on the ground forces them to their feet. It just seems really absurd, particularly on mobs with distinct knockdown animations like Aurochs (I should make a video, and maybe that will persuade somebody).

[Lurkerinthemist]

After reading all the threads linked into this thread, I gotta say, it looks like the trip animation was changed because it was confusing the CREEPS, not anyone in a PvE raid or fellow. From the creeps' perspective, maybe they were unable to interpret whether a knockdown was an FM starter or not. Just my take on the issue.

The real problem here, based on the LotroSystem's response, is execution of the change. Ok, so there's confusion about combat states - but you can tell that the response to that was backwards. Let FM starters knock down mobs, let stuns cause birdies and stars to fly around your head...makes sense to me.

Weird issue to have, IMHO. You have skills with certain names and so you should let them do certain animations. I'd be much happier by the way if my captain's kick caused humanoid mobs to look like they were feeling some pain...Nuff said.

And I agree 100% that this type of change sucks the fun out of the game.

[Thane9]

Not everything can be seen as wonderful for everyone: we don't do these things to make folks mad, we do them for the overall health of the game, where more people can get more benefit more of the time. When changes like this affect you personally, and you don't like them, that can be hard to see. We're never happy about making a change that folks will generally not see the value in immediately, if ever. That we make them anyway should indicate that there was a decent reason.

Again, I appreciate your position, you can only do what your data suggests is the right thing. And as much as it stinks, appeasing the masses has to be one of the top priorities for you.

However, there is an additive effect when what seem to be small changes all come together in game that leaves a lot of players feeling there's been a massive shift in the "feel" of combat.

So each individual change may be a "popular" choice according to the feedback and data, but the net sum leaves combat flat and not as fun as it was out the gate. And it's that initial feel of the game that was what made you money in the first place.

/shrug

Thanks for trying to explain your position at least. I get it. I just don't like it.