New Vault

[GalateaOrea]

Speaking of the 150 size vault, is that something we are likely to see? My characters are all tapping their feet desperately impatient for more vault space and very uncertain what to do, whether 'tis better to try to live with 120 or be a tad bit more patient because 150 spaces are on the way. I'm sorry if this is answered in this thread, I haven't read all the postings.

Ransroth, you have done a magnificent job of responding to players concerns and angst over the new vault from Beta on. I look forward to whatever you have come up with next!

[Ransroth]

I noticed while moving items (using double mouse click) from the vault into inventory that partial stacks don't fill other partial stacks that are already in inventory. If I recall correctly, we used to be able to right click a stack in the old vault and it would fill partical stacks in inventory. Is the current behavior intentional, a bug, or a future improvement opportunity?

It's on my list of things to investigate as to how easy it would be to make it automerge. But I'm extremely busy right now so it's taking a back seat. Hoping to be able to get to it sometime soon.

Also, having to right click... every... single... item... one... at... a... time... and selecting the new bag from the right click menu is quite the pain. Any thoughts on how to do a mass move? I know multi-select would be the way to go from a usability perspective, but it doesn't sound like it's something you'll be able to do without a lot of pain. A workable solution may be a keystroke combination that would move items in our inventory to the currently opened vault bag much like double mouse click moves items from the vault to inventory. So 1) double mouse click items we want to move enmass into inventory (temporarily), 2) switch to another vault bag, then 3) shift-double mouse click (just an example of keystroke combo) items back into the currently displayed bag. Have this key stroke combo override auto bag location, but not stacking if a partial stack exists in the displayed bag.

Thanks for the ideas - we'll think about it .

I'm kind of curious though how things will be split up for mats such as ingots. For example, many metal ingots are shared between Metalsmith and Weaponsmith. How would those be classified? Both Metalsmith and Weaponsmith? Just Prospector? I really wish we could see the sort order for everything before it gets set in stone.

One of our systems designers is the one who will be working on how to assign things to professions - he will decide what to do for this case - and other questionable cases. It won't be perfect, but it will be better than alphabetic. Nothing much is being set in stone - if we decide later that other assignment makes more sense, it can be changed.

Speaking of the 150 size vault, is that something we are likely to see? My characters are all tapping their feet desperately impatient for more vault space and very uncertain what to do, whether 'tis better to try to live with 120 or be a tad bit more patient because 150 spaces are on the way. I'm sorry if this is answered in this thread, I haven't read all the postings.

This is not my call - any answer to this question on my part would be pure speculation.

[alcuin26]

Hopefully a DEV sees this and at least considers this as they work on the vault. I'll also post it in suggestions:

Please keep as a design goal to make sure that the vault does not look and feel like some sort of odd extension of an Operating System folder/explorer window. The old vault felt like I was looking in some bags. The new vault feels like I'm looking at a directory / file view. I'd like increased usability, but I want it to FEEL like a game... like LOTRO.

Thanks.

[nebulouskitsune]

This is not my call - any answer to this question on my part would be pure speculation.

If you could please plead to the powers that be on our behalf. I've certainly grown used to the new vault since beta and it's introduction on live, but I thought I remember one of the reasons given for the change was so we could get expansions to it.

On a different note. As I get to some of my characters that weren't in beta I'm still finding odds and ends that aren't getting filtered with other like items. Is it useful yet to /bug those?

Anyways, the upcoming changes sound great! And a huge thank you for being so direct with us. It's much appreciated!

[Thoroval]

It's on my list of things to investigate as to how easy it would be to make it automerge. But I'm extremely busy right now so it's taking a back seat. Hoping to be able to get to it sometime soon.


Thanks for the ideas - we'll think about it .


One of our systems designers is the one who will be working on how to assign things to professions - he will decide what to do for this case - and other questionable cases. It won't be perfect, but it will be better than alphabetic. Nothing much is being set in stone - if we decide later that other assignment makes more sense, it can be changed.

Big thanks for taking the time to reply to folks in this thread. I hope whatever's keeping you busy right now lead's to more awesomeness!

P.S. Speaking of storage, do me a favour the next time you walk by the crafting dev. Tell them "Cookable fish are crafting mats and should stack to 100 (instead of 50) like all the other crafting mats. Please and thanks." (I'd report that as a bug, but... oh wait, I did... last year...)

[Unique]

Tell them "Cookable fish are crafting mats and should stack to 100 (instead of 50) like all the other crafting mats.

That's not half as bad as "Cup of Coarse Flour".

They finally updated it to say "this has no apparent use" and removed it from the crafting quest rewards but left it for sale on the grocer vendors So the vendor is selling vendor trash.

[Elderban]

Turbine...

For future reference - if it isn't broke, don't break it.

[Beldacar]

Turbine...

For future reference - if it isn't broke, don't break it.

Well, in my opinion, the old system was broken ;^)

Tiny, hideous icons that all looked the same. Tiny, arbitrarily-sized bags. Vast amounts of wasted space for the frames of all those bags. And the thing was a dog, performance-wise: on more than one occasion it took over a minute from clicking on the NPC to seeing the vault on the screen. The new vault is worlds faster loading and updating.

The only thing I miss about the old vault is the auto-stacking when moving things from the vault to the personal inventory.

[Polvere]

Really? Where are your Strawberries? Where is your Coal? Where are your Mixed Spices? Where's your Extraordinary Leather? Where's your Wax? Where's your untreated Yew?

This is actually one of the things I really like about the new vault. Instead of scanning through 100+ icons in the old system (and mousing over if a description is required), I can just type 'yew' or 'spice' in the search box on the vault and they come up immediately. Much nicer I think. No more wondering if I have accidentally filled something away in one of the wrong chests - the search guarantees you find everything relevant.

Alphabetical sort SUCKS with the current fluffy naming conventions.

Agreed, but the search makes the naming conventions mostly irrelevant. I don't scroll down to find 'Head of Cauliflower', I just type 'Cauli' and it's there on the screen straight away. Or use the filter and set it to Craft: Ingredient and I can see everything I can cook with. Very handy.

Between the search box and filter box I never even use the chest settings. I'm finding things in the vault very quickly with these options. The vault threw me off initially but now I would never want to go back to 100+ little icons with no tool tips and no searching capacities. Nice work!

[Ransroth]

On a different note. As I get to some of my characters that weren't in beta I'm still finding odds and ends that aren't getting filtered with other like items. Is it useful yet to /bug those?

Bugging these is a good idea.

[Saeta]

Ransroth, thanks for all your responses. It helps knowing our concerns are being listened to. People tend to get "louder" and less willing to compromise when they feel ignored or when others attempt to invalidate their concerns. I'm no exception to that

Many of the changes you mention will help make the vault friendlier to those of us who find the current vault unwieldy. However, as smart as autosearch becomes, I believe there will still be a need to manual sort vaults. Computers just don't always think the way people do.

Let me use my cook as an example. She stores fruit (Strawberries, Raspberries, Blackberries, and Blueberries, and Shire Apples) in the top row of her Raw Ingredient bag. The second row are leafy (Tea Leaves and Mint Leaves) and head (Cabbage and Cauliflower) vegetables. The bottom row is roots (Royal Taters and Taters, Green Onions and Yellow Onions, and Carrots). Because this isn't tier based, but food group based, will a smart autosearch be able to do this?

The Processed Ingredients bag follows a similar theme. Jams, Fillings, and Frosting go in the top row. Stocks, Meats, and Potatoes are in the next row. Pie crusts, Dough, and Flour are in the bottom row.

That's also how her vault used to be, but now isn't. Even after reorganizing her vault, it's still a mess. Young Tea Leaves are next to Yellow Onions! Honey is next to a raw fish, as is Spring Barley Flour. My poor cook is just shuddering trying to make sense of her vault now. and ... well. She's majorly freaking out over the possibility of selling contaminated food in the Auction House.

Yes. I know it's just thumbnails. But it affects my immersion in the game


I rely on thumbnails rather than names of the ingredients, which perhaps is weird as I'm an avid reader and will read just about anything. But, I'm also an artist, so I'm even more visual. At a glance, I can see what she's low on and need to stock up on because ... everything is in its place. It doesn't automatically rearrange because she adds a new item to her bags or vault, nor do I want it to. A new food gets put exactly where it makes the most sense to me. I'm cool if that means I have to move everything over a slot. What's most important to me is to know exactly where things are.


It been mentioned how easy search is. It is easy. I do like that as you type the name, the vault eliminates everything but what you want. But, I spend the entire day coding, the last thing I want to do when I'm playing a game is to have to type. Yeah, yeah. I know. It's a social game. I should be socializing with everyone in the game. But, we'll discuss that elsewhere, ok?


By the way. Can we get some of the improvements to the vault made to the vendor? Especially filtering. Most especially to the Homestead Provisioners. They carry SOOO much stock it would be helpful to be able to filter stock by craft. The current filtering is rather worthless with the Homestead Provisioner. If I weren't so cheap, and I hadn't invested so much gold in owning a home, I'd just buy cooking supplies from the expert cook by the Shire oven. I actually wouldn't mind a search box too on the vendors. Anything to make finding what I need to purchase quicker and easier!

[TMatus]

Talk to vault keep > open vault > hit the "I" opened all my bags...drop/grab your stuff n go.

Now I sit scrolling n searching...40 plus pages of (the majority) negativity in Beta over the vault n STILL u go live with it. And then you talk to your "paying" players like we're idiots. "Hey sorry guys we know you hate it, but we DON"T CARE, I was forced to let it go live"...PLEASE!!! Why have a beta test or a forum then for feedback??? You fixed something that wasn't even broken. Don't say you were force to go live with it. Say the truth..Our coders couldn't figure out how to expand the current vault system so we are forcing this on you. Again...WE COULDN'T CARE LESS how much this issue generated a negative response in beta.

[Lurkerinthemist]

Just putting in my 2 cents -

I LOVE the new vault. I love that I open it, drop my stuff in and run. I don't have to try to sort, or keep hitting icons until the right chest opens.

I craft a lot. And I packrat away all the crit items, so yeah, I do know how the new vault works for crafting. Works great! I don't have to try to tell the difference between those flax fibers - just type fiber in the search, see a list, grab the one I want and go craft!

I am hoping they do this for our bags too!

[Airoza]

I don't understand the complaints about the new vault. I simply don't get them. Except those from people who just don't like change in any form; those I at least understand.

To me, grouping items in the vault by their type is great. I can put all my consumables in one chest, all my barter items in another, all my metalsmith items in a third, tailor in a 4th, housing items in a 5th, etc etc ad nauseum. This exactly mirrors the way I had my vault organized to begin with.

How is this not easier? And they're even ordered alphabetically, or reverse-alphabetically, if I was needing that for some reason.

Okay, let's assume for the moment that I don't want to organize my vault as above. Let's assume that I want to put all my recipes together, regardless of profession. So all recipes go into my 1st chest, ingredients into the 2nd, and so on.

Again, how is this not easier?

Wait, wait, I know. Maybe I just want to view all my items at one time in one big list, but I don't like scrolling through them to find the one item I want... let's say, a 4th tier metalworking recipe that I can't quite remember the name of.

Oh look, a nifty little drop-down that allows me to select by Type of item... and one of those types is "Recipe: Metalworking Tier 4". So I can instantly see all of the recipes of my 4th tier, and find them super quickly.

Of course, I can always view all my items in one big window if I want, simply by clicking the "All" button on the "Viewing" (or whatever the label says) drop-down, no matter what chest they're in.

[sarcasm]

But that damned idea of allowing me to auto-stack items when I drag them into the vault (in any window or view) and then auto-switching to that chest so I can see how many I have? Insane. Just craziness.

And forget that Search feature in case I'm just too lazy to bother with the two clicks it takes to go to my consumables chest. I can just type in "Edhelharn" and see all my tokens at once. That's not efficient or easy at all.

Let's not talk about how much the auto-stacking and ability to add things to a full shared storage helps, either.

Definitely a horrible implementation of a new system for the vault. Can't stand it. Just awful, awful, awful.

[/sarcasm]



Good job, devs. This was one of the most helpful parts of the update for me (well, that and the increased shared storage space... once my TP total is fixed, anyway).

Agree totally with this post. I love the new vault system and I really believe most of the problem with many people is that change is difficult. The system is very organized and easy to find things. Thank you Dev's!! Keep up the great work!

[Jenara]

... I really believe most of the problem with many people is that change is difficult. The system is very organized and easy to find things.

Not picking on you Airoza, just find your comment works as my lead in for this post ...

It's understandable that those of you who don't organize your life the way others of us do would not understand why the new system, while helpful in many ways, doesn't work for us. You don't have to understand. But it would be nice if y'all weren't condescending either. We aren't stupid, and we don't have any more or any less problems adjusting to change than anyone else, we just organize things differently than you do.

I (and many others) posted a lot of information and examples in the beta forums. We talked extensively about the ways in which the new vault doesn't work for the way that we visually organize and sort. Ransroth understood the requests we were making, and went out of his way to explain why things are the way they are, why they can't all be improved right away, and that they are continuing to find ways to address all of our needs. Since he's the dev and understands the issues, I don't need to spend hours recreating what I posted during beta. Suffice it to say that a little tolerance goes a long way. You may not agree that there's a problem, but telling us to basically 'just accept it, it works fine' is not the solution. Thanks for understanding.

-Jen

[jcmanda]

We fear change.

[TheREALify]

I was also going to respond to Airoza's post but upon previewing my own post found that Jenara had already done so. I will omit my comments and simply agree with what Jenara has said. Thank you both.

[Ayrolen]

Talk to vault keep > open vault > hit the "I" opened all my bags...drop/grab your stuff n go.

Now I sit scrolling n searching...40 plus pages of (the majority) negativity in Beta over the vault n STILL u go live with it. And then you talk to your "paying" players like we're idiots. "Hey sorry guys we know you hate it, but we DON"T CARE, I was forced to let it go live"...PLEASE!!! Why have a beta test or a forum then for feedback??? You fixed something that wasn't even broken. Don't say you were force to go live with it. Say the truth..Our coders couldn't figure out how to expand the current vault system so we are forcing this on you. Again...WE COULDN'T CARE LESS how much this issue generated a negative response in beta.

Please show me where Ransroth has talked to any of us like we're idiots. Stop making stuff up. It's really insulting.

I LOVE the new vault. I love that I open it, drop my stuff in and run. I don't have to try to sort, or keep hitting icons until the right chest opens.

That's what I like about it, too. And once we can name our chests, it'll be gravy for me. I've already been able to memorize which chest # I have my most used items in (like all of the barter items/marks I've been picking up in the newly scaled instances) and my big chest o' crafting mats.

[macdadg]

Not picking on you Airoza, just find your comment works as my lead in for this post ...

It's understandable that those of you who don't organize your life the way others of us do would not understand why the new system, while helpful in many ways, doesn't work for us. You don't have to understand. But it would be nice if y'all weren't condescending either. We aren't stupid, and we don't have any more or any less problems adjusting to change than anyone else, we just organize things differently than you do.

I (and many others) posted a lot of information and examples in the beta forums. We talked extensively about the ways in which the new vault doesn't work for the way that we visually organize and sort. Ransroth understood the requests we were making, and went out of his way to explain why things are the way they are, why they can't all be improved right away, and that they are continuing to find ways to address all of our needs. Since he's the dev and understands the issues, I don't need to spend hours recreating what I posted during beta. Suffice it to say that a little tolerance goes a long way. You may not agree that there's a problem, but telling us to basically 'just accept it, it works fine' is not the solution. Thanks for understanding.

-Jen

excellent post. +rep

[feenicks]

i posted quite negatively about the new vault some couple pages ago...

I still prefer the old one, but with use i dislike the new one a little less than i did before.
I think one advantage is with bank mules i have more "room" (specifically more 'chests' within which to sort stuff as now i can use however many 'chests', just within my overall space limit.

[Rockwolf]

When I first saw the new vault system, I was shocked, horrified, held aghast and in dismay as to why my meticulously chaotic vault had been turned into... into... a LIST!

Then, a friend from another game (which shall not be named) came to check out LotRO at my insistence, especially now that it's F2P. They did, and by the time I found out she was actually playing, she had already leveled a champion to 14, fallen in love with the game, and purchased the game and MoM expansion. Good for her! So, I get on my main and craft up some gear for that champ of hers! Weapons and armor were crafted up nice and quickly, but for the jewelry, I needed to bounce around alts to gather up the needed materials!

Oh no! that meant searching through all of those horrid new vaults!

grumble search grumble search search stupid new vault...

what's this stupid 'filter' button?

*clouds part, angels sing*

OOooh...

a few clicks, and my jeweler was suddenly pumping out all the stuff I needed to make for her. I even got back on my weaponsmith, and made a bunch more weapons to give away to F2P players leveling in Bree. (BTW: New Players are so cute when you hand them a purple named item, they think it's some godly awesome weapon. Nope, just a critted craftable, mats were damned cheap, and I had a ton of crit items laying around)

Me like... oh yes, me like very much.

[Linwe-Elfmaiden]

The vault change is certainly quite a shock and human nature is to dislike change... in the beta, I pretty nearly freaked out when I saw it. BUT, once I got used to it, I ended up liking it so much that I missed it when I would play on live.

I love that it will auto-stack!! I love that I can put different things in different chests if I wish and the chest size is not predetermined. And I LOVE that the NAMES of the items are presented!! It was SOOO tiresome to have to hover over each fool item to double check was that the one I needed... I love that I can search, filter, sort, list everything if I wish...

For the folks hating it-- all I can say is let go of the hate and open up your mind to the features here.. play with it a bit... it really IS a very good thing!

[macdadg]

The vault change is certainly quite a shock and human nature is to dislike change... in the beta, I pretty nearly freaked out when I saw it. BUT, once I got used to it, I ended up liking it so much that I missed it when I would play on live.

I love that it will auto-stack!! I love that I can put different things in different chests if I wish and the chest size is not predetermined. And I LOVE that the NAMES of the items are presented!! It was SOOO tiresome to have to hover over each fool item to double check was that the one I needed... I love that I can search, filter, sort, list everything if I wish...

For the folks hating it-- all I can say is let go of the hate and open up your mind to the features here.. play with it a bit... it really IS a very good thing!

For you it is a very good thing. The features that make it a very good thing are inconsequential to me. I am visually oriented, so I can distinguish very quickly between items. And I had my vault organized before, so that things were in logical (to me) groups, and I could very quickly get to what I needed. If things looked similar, I could just use the tooltips to make sure I had the right one. I don't need the names of all the items, it clutters the UI and just plain gets in the way. Sorting and filtering takes longer than a visual search, so my time in front of the vault is exponentially longer than it used to be, and given the fact that I can't see everything at once, or organize things in a logical way, it is a gigantic headache to use the vault at all.

I had a place for everything and everything had a place. Since everything had a place, I didn't need an autostack, because I moved a partial stack onto another partial stack. If it made 2 stacks, I knew it immediately, and could shift things over and make room. I never felt constrained by having static vault sizes, but with the vault the way it is now, it is a necessity. I knew exactly where the milk was in the fridge because it stayed where I put it. Now, the milk ends up in the crisper drawer because I added a package of lunchmeat.

For folks hating the "haters", don't tell us to 'get used to it' or 'have an open mind'. Your helping isn't helping. It was because of us in BETA that what you have now in live is as good as it is (chests, filters, searches). I don't begrudge you because you like the new vault, don't begrudge me because I don't like the new vault.

[Unique]

Your helping isn't helping.

People are just trying to help you cope with the new vault - yet all you do is repeat the same complaints over and over - we get it, you don't like it, your a visual person.

But let me ask you something, since all the not so visual organizing people have been forced to cope the old vault which was completely visual for 3 years, can't you just manage for a month or two until the new stuff is in that will give you back your functionality? They never said manual sorting was never gonna happen, it just wasn't gonna happen right this second.

BTW I was in beta too and just as vocal about the bank improvements too, I was a hater at first, then I made the new system work as best as I could for me. I am not telling you to stop hating it, you go right ahead but don't hate the people who are just trying to help you. If you don't want our help, stop posting on an open forum and stick to the official feedback thread for the vault.

[LazarLX]

The new vault is garbage.

The old Vault was much easier to organize and know where what I want is.

I had everything perfectly set in their own chests. It was perfectly easy to see EVERYTHING in my vault at once.

I just think there are much more important game mechanic problems that could have been addressed in the place of the Vault.

Which leads me to thinking....MOST of the changes in the newest update are things I have NEVER heard ANYONE complain about EVER. It makes me wonder if the devs do honestly care what we want, or if they just plan to make the game their way no matter what we say

At the LEAST give us the option to have the classic vault.

I know some of you are saying "Jeze why do these grumpy people care so much about the vault" well, because it didn't need to be changed, was better the way it was, and there are much more important things to fix. Like pets and Heralds getting stuck and confused in a wide open field.