Feedback: Producer's Letter March – 2011

[UndeadKing]

A minor advantage that is convenient? I think you may have just created the Store's new advertising slogan.

Well then I'd better get royalties!

Honestly sure if you use all three kinds of pots you're going to have an advantage over me. However at this point in time that advantage isn't really game changing it just makes things easier and as such is a convenience.

To me an advantage is something where if I buy it, it gives me easy mode without a challenge. Or is required to complete content. Something like these pots that only make it slightly easier are convenient but hardly necessary or game changing hence why I don't really see them as an advantage.

[Harla]

To Sapience, You've sounded a bit tense/defensive at a few points here, so Iw ante dto say:

Thanks for taking the effort to actually respond at all. Despite how piranahish people will be, despite picking every sylable you type apart, and despite assuming htat your response means thy have carte blanche to pour all their complaints and worries into your ears (eyes?) directly... it's still appreciated, even by those same folk who attack everything you say, I'll wager.

Myself included, so, without further ado:

I honestly assumed that pretty much all Turbine devs play the game and have at least one if not several accounts. However, a producer's letter is, whatever else it may be, an important and telling release... everything said in it will have been carefully measured and nothing will be a throw-away... It's not the comment itself that's upsetting folk, (regardingthe store items), but rahter that it was almost the first thing mentioned in such a document... meaning almost certianly that it was heavily considered, and deliberate. Makes it very hard to view it as anyhting other than a hard plug, no matter how open your mind might be.

Enough about the store and such, however...

The other thing that a lot of folk are made uneasy by is not the lack of response (because as you've mentioned, there has been quite a lot of response), but rather the highly selective response.

One example of such, is the manner in which the letter, while talking about player feedback and issues, was deafeningly silent about the tidal-waves of discontent regarding the character panel and related chagnes. There has been universalt turbine silence on that score, including within all of the countelss threads on the matter. While the forums are not necessarily indicitive, the vast majority of conversations in game have all had exactly the same tone, no matter where you look, and yet no response. I would wager freely, in fact, that you will not adress this particular point, if you should respond to the post.

The selectivity is... disconcerting; someone asked your opinion regarding the inability of your crafters to make or procure in any in-game way, the handful of useful consumables that are as yet store-only... and despite your addressing of everything else within that post, all around it, and coming back twice over the matter when pulled on it, that point remained silent, even then. It doesn't feel accidental; are there things you're simply not allowed to say, or don't wish to? Is answering that itself one of those things?

Here's another thing that it feels like no-one is actually allowed to repsond to directly in any way: comments regarding the whole convenience/advantage thing, in cases where a case is made for a store product being very much an advantage, and even a make-or-breaker. It's been catch-cried to death by now, and used as a rally-stick by disgruntled players everywhere, sure, and making any word to address it one way or the other is a nasty can of worms, since the whole messy little bundle has gone on for all this time now, so it's understandable that, at this point, no-one is -ever- likely to come out with a solid answer for us when that comes up... but as long as it remains a little "can we just forget about that?" issue, so to will it continue to sit in the minds of players like a stone in your shoe; not a huge annoying deal-breaker on its own... but another persistant, constant irritant.

Enough...

I am, overall, very much enjoying the new content, and I'm glad to see that this flush of fresh new activity is pegged to continue, with more content on its way. It's very pleasing, although I think Kate may have missed the mark a touch on one point: It's not the saving of hobbits that people enjoy... it's the gleeful, repeated slapping of them.

Even if you don't get around to responding to this post in aprticular, Sapience, I do hope to glance over it, so that I can say thanks again, for the effort you're putting in, for all of our sakes.

-Niara

[Khafar]

the letter... was deafeningly silent about the tidal-waves of discontent regarding the character panel and related chagnes. There has been universalt turbine silence on that score

In my experience, Turbine won't respond to an issue when they feel that doing so will just pour gasoline on the fire. Namely... when they aren't going to tell players what they want to hear. Like the "Compromised Account Reimbursement Policy", I suspect we'll hear more about the character panel if/when they're ready to make further changes - I highly doubt they'd "revert" it.

In any case, I wouldn't expect to get any sort of detail in a "producer's letter". It's one part forward-looking information, and one part cheerleading. Any details on much of anything will eventually come in either developer posts, or in a dev diary. I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about what's coming in May - seems like some Patch Notes ought to go up on Bullroarer in a month or so.

Khafar

[MithrilSoul]

My $0.02 (and then some), as a Founder/Lifetimer/VIPer...

1. I really like the fp2 thing, I like the store, I like that it's making money (or seems to be) and that that money is assuring a future for LOTRO. But it's just WAY too much "in your face" currently. Yes, we have a store. Yes, we all realize that. We do. Honestly. We get it. There's no need to shove it down our throats every second.

2. Kate seems really nice. I liked a lot of what is in her letter. But for heaven's sake, SOMEONE at Turbine needs to hire her a P.R. person. And that P.R. person needs to tell her that Producer Letters about the future of the game are NOT the place to make shameless, in-your-face-over-the-top plugs for the Store. We get it. There's a store. You want us to spend lots of money in the store. We get it. STOP SHOVING IT IN OUR FACES. Please, for the love of god...

3. Why is point #2 so important? Because by having the shameless Store plugs in there, it gives the impression that the "real" goal of the letter (the "secret agenda" behind it, if you will) is NOT to inform the community of what is coming in the future, but simply to be yet another way (on top of the 8,000 ways already happening) of trying to coax people into spending more money in the Store. It totally changes the flavor and the perception of the letter. Instead of being something that generates lots of excitement and good will, now instead you have a bunch of people who have this bad taste in their mouth because they really aren't sure anymore whether the whole thing is just a ruse to make yet another Store plug.

So it's just bad P.R., bad management. If the Producer feels the need to make Store plugs, it would be far better to do that in a separate letter ("Hey Community, here are some of the exciting things available in the LOTRO store!")...but to try to mix it in with the information letter like she did was just...a really bad decision. I'm sure she had good intentions, but perhaps was a bit naive about how those blatant Store plugs would be interpreted. That's where an experienced P.R. person (who knew the LOTRO playerbase well) would probably have been able to steer her in a different direction and get her to edit out a few of those lines in the letter.

(Obviously this is all the more true considering the high levels of consternation right now that with the introduction of some of the uber store-only potions, that Turbine has betrayed its promise that store items would be for convenience but not ever be anything that gives an in-game advantage. If the Producer wants to seriously talk about the Store, I think THAT is the topic we as a community would like to see directly addressed.)

[cowboyhugbees]

I would have liked to hear about some more long term plans. For instance, are there going to be any changes to housing in the next update or further down the road?

[cipher_nemo]

And that P.R. person needs to tell her that Producer Letters about the future of the game are NOT the place to make shameless, in-your-face-over-the-top plugs for the Store. We get it. There's a store. You want us to spend lots of money in the store. We get it. STOP SHOVING IT IN OUR FACES. Please, for the love of god...

QFT. I'm happy with the F2P model that Turbine is using, and don't mind the occassional 'buy now' or 'unlock now' wording in the UI. But many of us are tired of the constant marketing of the Turbine Store in every piece of communication we receive from Turbine. As MithrilSoul state, this is over the top to see it in a producer's letter. We already get spammed with these in e-mails, so we don't need them in other communication.

I would have liked to hear about some more long term plans. For instance, are there going to be any changes to housing in the next update or further down the road?

I would like to see some love in the housing areas as well. It has been stagnant for YEARS!

[BellusDuFenna]

I really doubt Housing will get addressed in Update 3. Turbine knows this is something that many would like, and if it was going to get some attention in the next update that most certainly would have been mentioned in Kate's letter. To be honest, I would be surprised if Housing saw any attention before next year sometime, it just doesn't seem to be a priority for the company at this time.

[cipher_nemo]

I really doubt Housing will get addressed in Update 3. Turbine knows this is something that many would like, and if it was going to get some attention in the next update that most certainly would have been mentioned in Kate's letter. To be honest, I would be surprised if Housing saw any attention before next year sometime, it just doesn't seem to be a priority for the company at this time.

My sentiments exactly. Which is why I keep asking for it. It's been dead for so long. It really needs an entire revamp to make it fun and interesting again. I'm not talking about anyone losing their housing, but rather adding to it. Be it personal stables, deeds, quests, etc. associated with housing to make it a worthwhile feature.

Thanks to shared storage and the separate cooldown of racial travel points, housing is almost worthless right now. I almost never visit my house or kin houses, because I never have a reason to do so. I affix my collectable housing items and dump memorabilia in my house chests, but that's about it.

[BellusDuFenna]

My sentiments exactly. Which is why I keep asking for it. It's been dead for so long. It really needs an entire revamp to make it fun and interesting again. I'm not talking about anyone losing their housing, but rather adding to it. Be it personal stables, deeds, quests, etc. associated with housing to make it a worthwhile feature.

Thanks to shared storage and the separate cooldown of racial travel points, housing is almost worthless right now. I almost never visit my house or kin houses, because I never have a reason to do so. I affix my collectable housing items and dump memorabilia in my house chests, but that's about it.

I actually use my Kinhouse quite a bit, but mostly to shoot my podcast (it's a great location) and to drop off items in the chests for my Kinmates to use. I use my house even less, only recording there from time to time. It would be nice if there were changes to make housing more interesting, as you described.

[cowboyhugbees]

I really doubt Housing will get addressed in Update 3. Turbine knows this is something that many would like, and if it was going to get some attention in the next update that most certainly would have been mentioned in Kate's letter. To be honest, I would be surprised if Housing saw any attention before next year sometime, it just doesn't seem to be a priority for the company at this time.

Personally, I just want housing to be a bit more useful. I like the personal stables idea, but more interactivity would be nice. Perhaps a way to write a "journal" that updates your my.lotro blog? Making items bought on the Auction House sent to your home mailbox? More items and freedom of placement?

I'd eventually like to see more neighborhood community options too, like a central bulletin board, a neighborhood tavern, etc.

I'm full of ideas

[Lohi]

NOT the place to make shameless, in-your-face-over-the-top plugs for the Store.

Except that these were in no way "over the top" and not really in-your-face. If you don't like the store then don't use it. If you want to argue against it then use facts and reason instead of hyperbole. There were three sentences total that mentioned the store.

Normal conversational tone: "we have new items in the store, and I really like these few especially"

Over-the-top and In-your-face: "Buy Buy Buy, did I mention you need to Buy More! And Sooner! Buy before we run out! Only 500 TP to leave the Shire!" (6 paragraphs later and in smaller font) "Oh yah, some non-store stuff too."

[Lomeloth]

Except that these were in no way "over the top" and not really in-your-face. If you don't like the store then don't use it. If you want to argue against it then use facts and reason instead of hyperbole. There were three sentences total that mentioned the store.

Normal conversational tone: "we have new items in the store, and I really like these few especially"

Over-the-top and In-your-face: "Buy Buy Buy, did I mention you need to Buy More! And Sooner! Buy before we run out! Only 500 TP to leave the Shire!" (6 paragraphs later and in smaller font) "Oh yah, some non-store stuff too."

"Over the top" is a purely subjective standard. What qualifies for that label to you isn't necessarily the same as what meets my criteria.

While your latter example is certainly "over the top" by anyone's standards, the Store mentions in the Producer's Letter were "over the top" for many posters in this thread. It's not just a matter of language used. There is also the context to consider - we expect puffery and sales tactics in ads, but anything in a Producer's Letter receives more weight and scrutiny simply because of who said it and where. It has nothing to do with whether I like the store (on the whole, I actually do), or choose to use it (I have used it). It has everything to do with the feeling engendered by reading those statements in that letter. It did not make a favourable impression on me, to put it mildly.

This is a matter of opinion, not objective fact. As such, there's going to be disagreement, and no one is "right" or "wrong."

[Lotroien]

Except that these were in no way "over the top" and not really in-your-face. If you don't like the store then don't use it. If you want to argue against it then use facts and reason instead of hyperbole. There were three sentences total that mentioned the store.

Normal conversational tone: "we have new items in the store, and I really like these few especially"

Over-the-top and In-your-face: "Buy Buy Buy, did I mention you need to Buy More! And Sooner! Buy before we run out! Only 500 TP to leave the Shire!" (6 paragraphs later and in smaller font) "Oh yah, some non-store stuff too."

Not over the Top? Not in our face? The community seems pretty divided about that.
It is not about the store perse, it is about that the store is stuffed into our faces.
I know we don't have to use the store(Yet). But still we have to look at all those Store Buttons on the UI Interface Panels. You have no problem with it, that's fine, but I do have a problem with it!

7 store buttons alone on the character panel. Call it what you like but I call it rediculous and am tired of that "Oh, it's just for your convenience" talk.

Since FTP with every update we seen more store buttons. When does this end?
When we see more Store Buttons in the UI then skills on the hotbars?

If those buttons are for convenience why then not an option so those who do not need that convenience can make those buttons invisible?
I find my way through the store easily and don't need direct "convenience" links from the UI.

Giving the community options is the best way to go. I, and others who don't like those buttons, make them invisible, and others who like the convenience leave them visible. Everybody happy, unless it is not about convenience at all. But if that is the case we will not see an option anyway, but at least I will know for sure what the true meaning of those Store Buttons is and will act on that accordingly.

Turbine made me from supporting the game with $$$ to someone who don't gonna spent a penny anymore till this is addressed.

[Duggan]

a producers letter should be a 'state of the game' kind of thing.

this letter did not come off as such.

[RicardoFurriel]

For some people, Turbine cannot do wrong. Everything is great. Like a first love. It's blind and sees no boundaries.

For some others, Turbine cannot do right. Rage quiting threads. Turbine is greedy. Everything is about the store now. The community sucks since going f2p.

If you stay somewhere in the middle you're gonna be ok. No headaches. You don't have to see your name associated with either faction. And you'll enjoy the game much much more.

On topic: letter has very good points, it adresses what it should address. What are the plans for the near future and what to look forward in the long run. Obviously the store and its constant relevancy in the game were the low points of the letter. We all know the store is there to make money. There's no need to pretend anything else.

Respectfully.

[Lohi]

a producers letter should be a 'state of the game' kind of thing.

I don't think there's any rule about this. This isn't a shareholder's annual report. There aren't that many MMOs where you get a regular letter from the producer in the first place. This seems to be her personal style of communicating. Compare this to the sort of stuff Stefeel would say to get everyone angry, and it's a nice improvement :-)

[Dokomo33]

I don't think there's any rule about this. This isn't a shareholder's annual report. There aren't that many MMOs where you get a regular letter from the producer in the first place. This seems to be her personal style of communicating. Compare this to the sort of stuff Stefeel would say to get everyone angry, and it's a nice improvement :-)

I don't think you quite understand. Nobody is saying the producer's letter violates any particular law or corporate policy. People are simply saying that it's not what they've come to expect from such communication and its very off-putting. You can rightfully disagree with this all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it is having an adverse effect on quite a few players. We are providing our subjective feed-back, as it may be of some interest to Turbine. Your constant attempts to discount this feedback is a bit absurd. If you want to be counted amongst those who are being benefited by the current marketing strategy, then by all mean let Turbine know. But, to constantly try to negate the feelings of others is a bit pointless given the subjectivity of their opinions.

[Sardonyx]

There aren't that many MMOs where you get a regular letter from the producer in the first place.

I don't know what games you've been playing, because all the ones I've played recently have something like this. Only with greater frequency and more detail than LOTRO.

Champions Online: http://www.champions-online.com/node/595220

City of Heroes: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=256624

Star Trek Online takes a different tack - the exec producer answers a pile of questions from the customers every month: http://www.startrekonline.com/node/2323

Games I don't play but easily found producers letters for with trivial googling: Age of Conan, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft... at which point I got tired of looking.

So no, Turbine/LOTRO isn't going the extra mile to communicate. In fact, as far as Producer's Letters go, they seem below average. Their Dev Diaries, on the other hand, are well done (almost always.)

[cipher_nemo]

So no, Turbine/LOTRO isn't going the extra mile to communicate. In fact, as far as Producer's Letters go, they seem below average. Their Dev Diaries, on the other hand, are well done (almost always.)

QFT. And I don't think it's because they want to avoid communicating more. If I had to guess, it might be because they're under-staffed in this area or slightly more unorganized than other developers/publishers. Cryptic (even though I dislike their work) communicates much more, and much more frequently, with FAR fewer people on the payroll.

[Lohi]

So no, Turbine/LOTRO isn't going the extra mile to communicate. In fact, as far as Producer's Letters go, they seem below average.

But you're referring to Cryptic. They seem to be well above average here. Even then most of the mail I get from Cryptic (as a non-customer) are ads to buy stuff. Compare to Blizzard where I don't remember any high level communication to customers for the 11 months I played WoW, except for patch notes or announcements of upcoming instances or expansions.

[cowboyhugbees]

QFT. And I don't think it's because they want to avoid communicating more. If I had to guess, it might be because they're under-staffed in this area or slightly more unorganized than other developers/publishers. Cryptic (even though I dislike their work) communicates much more, and much more frequently, with FAR fewer people on the payroll.

Agreed, Cryptic's communication and involvement with its player base is second to none.

[Duggan]

Agreed, Cryptic's communication and involvement with its player base is second to none.

at one time you could say that about Turbine.

while still better then most it has faltered over the years.

[FoxFire]

Since FTP with every update we seen more store buttons. When does this end?
When we see more Store Buttons in the UI then skills on the hotbars?

If those buttons are for convenience why then not an option so those who do not need that convenience can make those buttons invisible?
I find my way through the store easily and don't need direct "convenience" links from the UI.

Giving the community options is the best way to go. I, and others who don't like those buttons, make them invisible, and others who like the convenience leave them visible.

Perhaps a good compromise would be to allow VIP players to Right-Click on any Store Buttons and choose 'Ignore this button.' That will hide the Store button, but it will reappear whenever there is something new in the Store for that category of items. If there is nothing new in that category for 90 days it will also reappear. And you can always Right-Click it again to 'Ignore' it.

And of course, if you already own all the items for a particular category (say Storage for instance), then the button should not display.

This would also help players to know there are new items in the Store to examine.

And in the Options screen, include a reset button to 'Unhide hidden Store buttons'.

[Dankanthegood]

What Kate does mainly in this letter, is just promotion of the LOTRO STORE
The Ring of Profit($) has enslave her... One Ring to rule them all..

[cipher_nemo]

The Ring of Profit($) has enslave her... One Ring to rule them all..

BTW, it's a gold coin with the Turbine logo on it, not a ring. Jealousy of someone's or some company's success is not an excuse to be blind.