Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

[moebius92]

If the game gave you clear information, such as could be obtained through Recount in WoW, players would improve much quicker. They would see summaries of damage done, healing done, absorbs, buff uptime, interrupts, damage taken by source and so on. From this they would see "Hey, maybe I should pay more attention to the green stuff on the ground" or "That champ interrupted 20 times to my 3 times, I need to time my clobbers better".

We've already got the bolded information clearly available to us. (In multiple formats, to boot.) With a bit of work, we can get buff uptime. Interrupts are harder - tracking things that didn't get interrupted is mostly a matter of knowing what they do, but I can't think of a good way to track successful interrupts (I think - I haven't checked the most recent set of combat log outputs). Absorbs are also, as far as I can tell, not trackable, but aren't a terribly large component of damage negation/countering.

So, uh... go forth and use the tools to make people better?

[ArtemisNoir]

Casual and solo play is not king here, if u want that go play FPS or RPG and do whatever your heart likes and kill anything, but not here. This game like any MMO is designed in 1at place ti enoy group play like instances and raids.

Without patience or just whining here u will never enoy it.

You *are* joking, right?
This has to be one of the most casual and solo friendly MMOs on the market. Indeed, LOTRO is currently designed to be friendly to solo and casual players. If you only want group play, instances and raids (to the exclusion of everything else).... go play something other than LOTRO.

Also, I'm not sure what kind of RPGs you've played, but good ones are nothing like an FPS game, and they don't simply consist of mindless slaughter. They actually have a ... *gasp*.. story.. and interesting NPCs with unique backgrounds.

[Bladehawke]

Well, I started out in an MMO that was probably the most solo-friendly ever made (Asheron's Call), so for me they never have meant "Thou Shalt Group To Do Fun/Meaningful Things". Just "lots of people playing an online game together, having fun in a wide variety of ways". I prefer the latter definition.

In EQ, which largely forced grouping for some classes (i.e. try to solo a rogue past the early 20's and the game becomes less than pleasant), I played a (mostly) solo Enchanter all the way to the level cap. I learned to be better with my class spells and skills than most who grouped simply because I had to depend on myself to survive.

That said, EQ's death "penalty" was, in some ways, less than LotR:O's. Where we have a 10 minute dread effect and a repair bill, I had to run without gear to where I left my dead body and collect my stuff. I could make a corpse run to virtually anywhere in less than 5 minutes, and be back to playing as if nothing happened.

I think that, instead, much of the issue is (as others have stated) the differences between group and solo play in this environment. As a solo hunter, I want the extra damage that Stance: Strength gives me. How many hunters "growing up" know that they want to dial back the dps a bit and switch to an aggro reducing stance in a group?

Yes, I've seen people who simply aren't skilled in their classes, but a few minutes giving them helpful advice instead of complaining about how badly they play can make for a much better experience next time you see them.

(No, I'm not perfect, and no I haven't grouped much since coming to this game, but the concepts aren't difficult)

[Tainted_Black]

To OP:

For me it stems from a few things...

1. Lack of patience; I've played in a few groups (pugs) that people just rush in ahead, start killing things and die very quickly because they dont take a few seconds to look at the situation and think of the best way to handle it.. or they're not a class who should be doing it, like a RK.

2. Too Solo Friendly; I understand that people have different play styles and how they want to play and that's all fine with me. What bothers me is that you can solo to level cap, gaining absolutely NO grouping experience at all. This leaves the player not knowing what is expected of them in their specific role in a group set-up and makes them think that because they got to level cap solo, then they know everything there is to know about the class and refuse to take any advice on anything or instruction from the group leader. I call this the Vail of ignorance.

3. OP Classes; Certain classes in the game are vastly OP and you can do things which in all honestly should NOT be done solo. This puts a feeling of "I'm this s**t" into the players mind and makes them play like a ####### because they assume that they'll survive it and come out on top.

4. DPS, DPS and more DPS; If the game actually had more interesting fights then just smashing your way through lots of enemies but more complex fights with specific tactics then people would benefit from it. If all you do is kill things, then that's all people want to do,despite there possibly being other aspects of the fight that needs to be addressed.

5. "I've never had to use that skill / I didn't know it did that...."; That's the statements i've seen the most in a pug group where the group has wiped and someone has told a specific member of the group that they need to do a certain thing in order for the progression in the instance to continue. People need to take the time to study their class. Learn the ins and outs and use everything available to them at their fingertips to be most effective.

I do however, disagree that having #### gear = #### player. I've played with fully kitted out 65 players who are so bad that it's cringe-worthy and with 65 players who have nothing but quest rewards and they play amazingly well.
It's not the gear ... It's the attitude that makes the difference.

[LadyDena]

What I don't get is people who take a comment on why people may or may not have learned how to play their class and somehow twist it into some kind of personal attack on their playstyle or even the kind of person they are.

Look at the title of your thread and you have but yourself to blame. You set yourself up as de facto judge and jury on the good or bad ways to play a particular class, then you asked a question with said presupposition while using non neutral language that just happened to support your own bias. You would have gotten a much better response if you had simply asked "Why do people play their classes in so many different ways?" But of course looking at your rant you weren't interested in any discussion even though you framed your title as a question. Posts like this is nothing but a flame bait, a platform to rant about play style that you don't share, something that is entirely subjective.

Do you go into an art gallery and ask why are some artists so spectacularly bad at colors? Do you walk into a concert hall and ask why some musicians are so spectularly bad at playing their instruments? You wanted to know why some people reacted the ways they did, perhaps you should look at the non neutral way you presented your faux question in your title.



Some people are good at some stuff, some people are bad at some stuff. That's how the world works. Leave the drama at home. Occam's Razor.

[MightyKOko]

Some ppl can play well, some are very good, and some are just fail.
I am playing in PUGs all the time and have seen healers who join group for the first time and heal like Pro, and DPS who do an instance for 100th time and still cannot pick the right target/control aggro. Have seen 58lvl guardian who cannot tank a simple trash group in GS... you can find mini's who want to go DPS but not heal, you can see wardens who say you need to get a tank for the group... should I mention the RKs who love to pull every fight like they are immortal?

This is what happens when you make a game widely available - it's full with bad, mediocre, some good, and a few decent players... just as every other game out there.

[Fankdango]

It seems the blame falls mostly on the solo-ability of the game but as a player with multiple toons and countless hours of play, I can safely say that this is probably the biggest misnomer concerning the inability to play properly in groups. There are two reasons I say this:

1)Players who have a hard time in groups tend to have a difficult time in solo as well. I do like talking to people about their experiences with the game and noticed this correlation. They may not say right away that they had a hard time doing the solo content but if you ask them what color quests they usually pick up as their leveling they tend to only do up to yellow (1-2 levels above) and very often pick blue quests (1-2 levels below). Even with classes that aren't great at solo like burgs and champs, I consistently went for orange quests (even red at times) and only did lower level content and mobs when I felt like completing some deeds and finish some quest lines (especially epics). Some solo instances like "Death from Below" seemed impossible for many of these "more challenged" players but I had no issues with even a burg (they have major disadvantages with this quest because the NPC dwarves are notorious at getting themselves killed).

2)Playing in groups at lower levels is NOT the same as playing at higher levels. I have played over half the classes from level 1 to 65 and try to get into groups at various levels (GB, Weathertop, GA, Dol Dinen, Fornost, School/Lib, FT then the Moria instances). They may have the same basic gameplay (aggro, dps, healing) but the focus and difficulty of each role is vastly different between level ranges because your working with different skill sets and entirely different healing/dps magnitudes. Anyone who focuses on group content at various levels like I have will have noticed this.

Players are bad because they don't focus on being any better. Which doesn't mean that they are incapable of being good, it's just that they aren't good lotro players or don't have the time or energy to be "decent" players.

[Rosslin]

From my point of view there is only one way to be good when playing LOTRO - to LOVE to do it.

I have played several f2p MMORPGs, but I got bored very easy because there was no story and no purposes to identify with. Identifying with the character one plays can get you to fully understand what on Earth you are doing in the game. 1st of all LOTRO is more "real" than other games due to its base, Tolkien's books. So, a real fan of the fantasy world Tolkien has created will try to do the best he can to ensure Middle-Earth safety. This means all his/her actions should be perfectly calculated and knew.

We are also facing a paradox here. We are living in a world of information continuously expanding and we face players who didn't read the basics of the game or who are extremely surprised when they discover, at higher lvls, the official forums, the LOTRO Wiki or other places with very useful info regarding strategies and learning how to play a specific class. So, how can be this possible?

I have met lots of players who did not know what their role was in an instance and i even had some of them in my kinship. I have had really bad instances from which I was forced to leave and wonder what had happened...As far as it concern the kinship's members, it's the leader's and officers' duty to "train" them. They should raise their kin's members knowledge about the class they play and about the approach of different situations.

As a conclusion, I will not expect to meet only very good players from now on, but we could use of a decent skill in playing with one's own class and a decency in thinking about the others' time they will spend in a poor played instance.

[A.B.]

Ok, you are on Brandywine, one of the most populated (if not *the* most populated) servers. I see tons of people grouping on Landroval, people level alts/mains all the time. So while it is possible to level up solo, no one is forcing you to do so. So while I personally might cut people some slack, I don't think people on big servers can really complain when groups get a little cranked off if they don't know their class.

I don't get home from work until around 12:30am, shortly after midnight.. when I log on my kin is either empty or people are finishing up and logging out. Zones are empty, seeing another player is kinda rare.

Combine the pop at 1 in the morning with the fact that no one really wants, needs, or is required to group, and you end up soloing to 55.

[Wucas]

It's not the players that are the problem, but what the game demands of them.

Why should a hunter know about other stances when they get along fine in strength? Why should the champs know about ebbing ire etc when the game allows them to run in all guns blazing in fervour? If the game were designed so that encounters could not always be beaten using pure dps then people would start thinking about how they play.

It ain't the players, it's the system that needs tweaking.

[Repriever]

Look at the title of your thread and you have but yourself to blame. You set yourself up as de facto judge and jury on the good or bad ways to play a particular class, then you asked a question with said presupposition while using non neutral language that just happened to support your own bias. You would have gotten a much better response if you had simply asked "Why do people play their classes in so many different ways?" But of course looking at your rant you weren't interested in any discussion even though you framed your title as a question. Posts like this is nothing but a flame bait, a platform to rant about play style that you don't share, something that is entirely subjective.

Do you go into an art gallery and ask why are some artists so spectacularly bad at colors? Do you walk into a concert hall and ask why some musicians are so spectularly bad at playing their instruments? You wanted to know why some people reacted the ways they did, perhaps you should look at the non neutral way you presented your faux question in your title.



Some people are good at some stuff, some people are bad at some stuff. That's how the world works. Leave the drama at home. Occam's Razor.

Did you even read my post or any of the ones that followed it? How is expecting players to bring their skills to a group situation flame bait? How is that 'judging' anyone? You say the question should be 'why do people have different playstyles?' are you suggesting that people who ask to be invited into groups then get them wiped because they have no idea what they are doing are just exercising a different playstyle? lol.

As an aside to everyone else...I agree completely with everyone who is saying people who come to groups not having experienced group play but who are willing to listen should be encouraged and given every possible help we all had to learn at some point. In my experience most people in group situations want to learn and want to play their part but are often too shy/embarrassed to ask what they consider to be 'stupid' questions. A simple tell to someone who may be struggling asking if they're okay with everything can never hurt.

[Stanimir]

It's the lack of group play. You used to HAVE to group in the Lone-Lands, North downs, Angmar and beyond. Now you dont even have to group ever, at all. You can get to 65 entirely solo, and its often faster that way.

Thats why GS runs can be...tricky. Nobody has a clue what their doing because they soloed to level 60.

[KuriositysKat]

The issue of player competency in groups will never be solved by game mechanics or forum laments.

In some respects it is similar to drivers agreeing who is a bad driver while missing situational irony.

I tip my hat to you. Well said.

[Zarador]

I said that most people play however they find fun, without regard to what some strangers find fun. He basically said that some players are going to play in a Quixotic manner by the standards of those who are all about skilled grouping. Similar, just with better literary references .

Bottom line: people should stop worrying about what other players are doing (or not doing), and just find their own fun with like-minded people in the game.

Khafar

I understand and agree with what you're saying. But why come to a thread where people are trying to understand why some people are not as skilled as they should while playing their class (note: not talking in ooc, not hanging out in 21st Hall. Playing a class like a minstrel, a champion, etc is the focus of the thread) and preach to everyone who's willing to listen that people shouldn't worry about others and just focus on themselves? Yet another hint of how solo-centered the game has become I guess.

Do you understand what I mean? It's like me going to an RP thread or a "Good Morning Coffee" thread and tell everyone "Hey, what do you think of the new pocket item that drops from the 2nd boss in the last part of the Instance in the middle of the Dark Forest that's adjacent to the Hidden Bridge?". I would look like an idiot to say the least.

Respectfully...

To answer your question, this was not a thread entitled "How can we help players become better in groups". It was to create some sort of rant about some players with poor group skills. In fact, the Op at a point admits it was not a question, but rather a diatribe on his opinions of such players.

To go further, in your example of the RP coffee chat, such a topic would actually be acceptable since it's a general discussion about an item and place in the game. It's your assumption that you would look like an idiot that explains part of the problem presented here. Many players do indeed feel like "idiots" and "unwelcome" when crossing over into a different aspect of the game. They enjoyed many levels of doing their own thing which is not such a bad thing, then they get tossed into some unsavory groups that are unforgiving. If the experience is bad enough, they stay away from that play style. This has also been a problem with PvP in games. We want more players engaging in our play style, yet we make them feel unwelcome.

Think of it this way. You're on the job and you make a mistake in your new position with the company in a position you were encouraged to take. The boss screams out how lame you are and perhaps walks away in anger while shunning you in front of the whole department. What did you learn? Obviously, judging by the results of your mistake, you know you need more training and advise. Then you hit the company blog page and there is a rant about incompetence on people such as yourself thrown into that new position. Not very encouraging at all. You also enjoyed your old position and can transfer back at any time. What's the obvious move that many, not all, will take?

Human nature proves that most people will do what they are proficient and comfortable with. They need motivation and encouragement to go beyond that comfort zone in many cases. Not everyone is out for a challenge that diminishes their ego to some degree. That is why the "Praise in public; admonish in private" adage is so true.

Now if I were on the edge of attempting group/instance/raid content and read this thread, I might very well find my fears to be founded based on many of the opinions here. The fact is, a proficient solo player proves they have the ability to learn the game mechanics and perfect their play style. That means a cross over should be just another step, not some insurmountable hurdle placed in front of them. By belittling the accomplishments they made as a solo player we diminish their desire to be a group player. People like to feel like they are bringing something to the table rather than feeling like an goldfish thrown into the ocean.

The games became so solo concentric because many of the players (not all) engaged in group/raid content became so full of themselves. They applied some artificial level of high level skill and effort to something that is simply another play style. It's just another script in the game handled differently that requires interaction between classes. To admit that however requires a raider to humble themselves into accepting that it's not more difficult, it's just a different method of approaching encounters designed around that concept.

I will also note that the very nature of the mechanics of the game are also a double edged sword. Having raided for years in Everquest Live, the scripts became memorized and the actions almost automatic. This was because "X" amount of players needed/desired the rewards which required you to do the raid many times over. That created boredom with the seasoned players as well as intolerance towards the newer players that were less seasoned that bungled some of the encounters. Unfortunately, with repetitive content, this will always be an issue. Yet another reason for different paths to the same objective. (Skirmishes & Inspiration).

[spiritintelligencia]

EXPERIENCE.

I have played my Guardian for 4 years.

[bigsix66]

EXPERIENCE.

I have played my Guardian for 4 years.

I've been playing almost that long. I started out as an inexperienced, spectacularly bad player.

Now I'm an experienced, spectacularly bad player.

[Silchas]

I love this thread!

First, I will point out this:

1) People don't know how to play their class.
2) LOTRO Store made it possible to have all your virtues etc without learning anything. (OP didn't say this but several other have)
3) Ergo, LOTRO Store is Pay 2 Win.

But the very nature of the first statement is that these people aren't "winning" because they don't know what they are doing. Logic anyone?

Second, the answer seems clear. I think we can all petition Turbine for the following changes to the game.

1) No one can have more than one alt.
2) All people must be in a kin
3) No kin can be less than 100 players
4) All content, including the intro quests, will be converted to raids.
5) Quests in higher level zones will not open up until all quests( i.e. "raids")/deeds in lower zone are completed.
6) accounts will be closed (with no refunds) if they are not played 8 hours a day minimum.

This will whip people into shape and not permit any slackers from abusing the game or the rights of other.

/sarcasm off

Seriously, I am always surprised that people do not know their class but come on, its a friggin game. If you wipe out on the Grand Stairs in easy mode, it is not the end of the world. If you don't get the loot drop in the Watcher after your 15th try because someone didn't stand in the right place, big deal. Do it again. I understand it is frustrating but this is not the real world and people cannot expect the clock to turn backwards or that the desires of the few are going to outweight the desires of the many.

I am sure I have offended a number of people, but hey, its Monday and I am only on my second cup of coffee.

[Silchas]

Respectfully...

To answer your question, this was not a thread entitled "How can we help players become better in groups". It was to create some sort of rant about some players with poor group skills. In fact, the Op at a point admits it was not a question, but rather a diatribe on his opinions of such players.

To go further, in your example of the RP coffee chat, such a topic would actually be acceptable since it's a general discussion about an item and place in the game. It's your assumption that you would look like an idiot that explains part of the problem presented here. Many players do indeed feel like "idiots" and "unwelcome" when crossing over into a different aspect of the game. They enjoyed many levels of doing their own thing which is not such a bad thing, then they get tossed into some unsavory groups that are unforgiving. If the experience is bad enough, they stay away from that play style. This has also been a problem with PvP in games. We want more players engaging in our play style, yet we make them feel unwelcome.

Think of it this way. You're on the job and you make a mistake in your new position with the company in a position you were encouraged to take. The boss screams out how lame you are and perhaps walks away in anger while shunning you in front of the whole department. What did you learn? Obviously, judging by the results of your mistake, you know you need more training and advise. Then you hit the company blog page and there is a rant about incompetence on people such as yourself thrown into that new position. Not very encouraging at all. You also enjoyed your old position and can transfer back at any time. What's the obvious move that many, not all, will take?

Human nature proves that most people will do what they are proficient and comfortable with. They need motivation and encouragement to go beyond that comfort zone in many cases. Not everyone is out for a challenge that diminishes their ego to some degree. That is why the "Praise in public; admonish in private" adage is so true.

Now if I were on the edge of attempting group/instance/raid content and read this thread, I might very well find my fears to be founded based on many of the opinions here. The fact is, a proficient solo player proves they have the ability to learn the game mechanics and perfect their play style. That means a cross over should be just another step, not some insurmountable hurdle placed in front of them. By belittling the accomplishments they made as a solo player we diminish their desire to be a group player. People like to feel like they are bringing something to the table rather than feeling like an goldfish thrown into the ocean.

The games became so solo concentric because many of the players (not all) engaged in group/raid content became so full of themselves. They applied some artificial level of high level skill and effort to something that is simply another play style. It's just another script in the game handled differently that requires interaction between classes. To admit that however requires a raider to humble themselves into accepting that it's not more difficult, it's just a different method of approaching encounters designed around that concept.

I will also note that the very nature of the mechanics of the game are also a double edged sword. Having raided for years in Everquest Live, the scripts became memorized and the actions almost automatic. This was because "X" amount of players needed/desired the rewards which required you to do the raid many times over. That created boredom with the seasoned players as well as intolerance towards the newer players that were less seasoned that bungled some of the encounters. Unfortunately, with repetitive content, this will always be an issue. Yet another reason for different paths to the same objective. (Skirmishes & Inspiration).

Excellent post.

[Unique]

Look at the title of your thread and you have but yourself to blame. You set yourself up as de facto judge and jury on the good or bad ways to play a particular class, then you asked a question with said presupposition while using non neutral language that just happened to support your own bias.

Did you even read my post or any of the ones that followed it? How is expecting players to bring their skills to a group situation flame bait? How is that 'judging' anyone?

I have to agree with LadyDena, the way you come across - usually a sensational title to try to get attention followed by a post where you try to try to act neutral or go off on a rant, then followed by many post claiming you are misunderstood and people are attacking you for your "innocent" op.

This has been a recurring theme for you with other thread titles like


All you people looking for LOTRO EASY mode what is wrong with you?

Where you go on a rant about champs and hunters and how LM are the greatest and you know because you have been playing on since may.

Wardens. They're a bit...you know... how can I put this?

They like themselves, don't they? A lot. I mean they really do. I recently started playing a warden (he's level 17 now so I know quite a lot about them) and I just don't see what's so damned difficult and awe-inspiring about playing one.

Since I seem to have upset so many solo/casual players in my last thread I will start anew


Maybe you should look at how you come across to people to help you understand why you get the reactions that you get and if you are doing the same thing in game, then maybe that's why you have a hard time finding people to group with or a good kin.

You also give the impression that you know everything but have also implied that you have played most classes in a short time that it's hard to believe that you have even one maxed character. Trying to judge the game or other players after playing to level 35-50 doesn't give you the whole picture. However I could be wrong and you just enjoy the attention these threads give you or they may be failed attempts at sarcasm.

In any case, if you keep getting the same reactions to your questions/observations then you should look at HOW you are presenting your arguments because even if you are right on some points, they will quickly be overshadowed by the tone of your posts. People read the title and have already gone on the defensive before reading one word of your post, that's not a way to have an intelligent discussion.

[Frisco]

Gee, someone is upset because other people don't play a video game the way they think it should be played. Alert the media.

But hey, it got you attention. You win!

[Repriever]

I have to agree with LadyDena, the way you come across - usually a sensational title to try to get attention followed by a post where you try to try to act neutral or go off on a rant, then followed by many post claiming you are misunderstood and people are attacking you for your "innocent" op.

This has been a recurring theme for you with other thread titles like


All you people looking for LOTRO EASY mode what is wrong with you?

Where you go on a rant about champs and hunters and how LM are the greatest and you know because you have been playing on since may.

Wardens. They're a bit...you know... how can I put this?

Since I seem to have upset so many solo/casual players in my last thread I will start anew

Two of those threads were very clearly joke threads purely tongue-in-cheek. Most people got that straight away and joined in for a laugh. A select few with a sense of humour bypass decided to take offense to it and I ignored them completely to avoid getting into a ridiculous argument over nothing. The fact I pointed out I was level 17 on my warden so knew all about the class wasn't a big enough hint for you that I was joking then?

I don't know what to suggest other than to avoid my posts completely since they clearly upset you. I'm still wondering why you even bothered opening the thread knowing it was created by a poster you don't like, it makes zero sense to me unless you're just trawling through the forum looking for reasons to get on your high horse about something.

[Repriever]

Gee, someone is upset because other people don't play a video game the way they think it should be played. Alert the media.

But hey, it got you attention. You win!

Yeah, I started the thread just to get attention, that's it. You got me. I'm sure everyone else on the entire forum starts threads hoping nobody will ever read them because they don't want to draw attention to the point they're making.

[Vhivi]

I have met lots of players who did not know what their role was in an instance and i even had some of them in my kinship.

As something of a tangent, you make a point that hits a quandary of mine. Some classes it's pretty easy to determine what they do in groups. Some, not so much. Unlike other games, there are classes here that are confusing when it comes to groups. All have to be able to solo, but when you fit them in a group, they aren't entirely apparent.

I know that Guardians are useful as tanks and to a lesser degree can do fair damage.

Minstrels are useful as healers and to a lesser degree can do fair damage.

Champions are useful for doing damage, supposedly shine at area damage, and can be pressed into service as a tank.

Hunters are useful for doing damage and helpful with crowd control. Hunters can also remove poisons, but on a cooldown.

Loremasters, well, it gets murky here mainly because I don't play one at high levels. Loremasters do debuffs and crowd control, and contribute decent damage. They also can remove bad effects (bleeds and disease). So they're good at support.

Captains, I really don't know. They have buffs which other players ooze over. They also have Paltry damage, paltry healing and paltry tanking abilities. They can kind of do stuff, but struggle at it, so I really don't know what role they play in a group, or more specifically what they're supposed to do after they've given out their buffs.

Burglars, I really don't know. They can do some crowd control and start fellowship maneuvers (which have seemingly gone by the wayside in usefulness). They do mediocre damage and ... well, like hunters can remove poison every so often. Like the captain, i don't know what role they play in a group.

Runekeepers and wardens I don't play. Wardens apparently have tanking abilities and runekeepers can be either healing or damage. Other than that I'm ignorant

[ThistleRose3]

Seriously, I am always surprised that people do not know their class but come on, its a friggin game. If you wipe out on the Grand Stairs in easy mode, it is not the end of the world. If you don't get the loot drop in the Watcher after your 15th try because someone didn't stand in the right place, big deal. Do it again. I understand it is frustrating but this is not the real world and people cannot expect the clock to turn backwards or that the desires of the few are going to outweight the desires of the many.

I am sure I have offended a number of people, but hey, its Monday and I am only on my second cup of coffee.

For me wiping on watcher the 15th time because someone refused to follow directions and stand where they were told is a problem. If you enjoy wipe after wipe good for you feel free to run as many failed watcher runs as you wish. But I value my time and I expect everyone to try thier best when they are in a group encounter. If you dont understand what you need to do you should ask. If your not willing to make the changes needed to help the group then you should be playing solo.

This is not being elite. Completing a quest is how I enjoy the game. As you say the desires of a few should not out weigh the wishes of the majority. And I am sure that if you ask the majority in any watcher raid they would rather kill the watcher then wipe for the 16th time. The person that cant be bothered to follow directions wishes should not outway the wishes of the people who want to kill the watcher or complete any other instance.

[Vhivi]

This is not being elite. Completing a quest is how I enjoy the game.

Victory is always fun!

I'll take a sloppy victory over a well-fought loss any day of the week and twice on sunday. Going through learning curves is part of the game and actually makes that final victory all the more sweeter. Even so, I don't have "fun" when losing, but I can accept a certain degree. Winning is the pie-in-the-sky!