A friendly chat with Sapience (@ Gamescom 2011)

[Lowj]

I went to Gamescom in Cologne, Germany, yesterday and managed to meet up with Sapience, who as it turns out is a very friendly and enthousiastic guy! I had hoped to get a quick 5 minutes with him but he actually kept chatting with me for over half an hour

As you may be aware, before I went I asked (in another thread) whether there were any questions you would like answered. I got some great feedback on that (some ok feedback, some downright nasty) and managed to add quite a few questions to the ones I had already planned asking. So here's a short recap of my meeting with Sapience and (most importantly) his answers. Please understand that I asked a whole bunch of stuff but there were a number of questions that he simply could not comment on at all, since it was covered by the NDA, so for most of those I didn't even bother writing it down here. Happy to answer specific questions later, though.

While Sapience was putting away the Dutch salty liquorice I had just presented him with (come bearing gifts, it's a good conversation starter!) I was speaking with a colleague of his who mainly works on DDO (the lovely Tolero). We spoke about the difference between DDO and LOTRO and how DDO is often about puzzles and such, so I mentioned how much I enjoyed the Inn of the Forsaken instance and similar quests. By then, Sapience had returned and he explained that that the people who design an instance get quite a bit of room to play around, and that this particular instance was obviously created by someone who has fond memories of the Goonies

I then asked some questions (thanks Crell_1!) about F2P/Premium accounts - whether there are any plans to add Destiny Points functionality to those account types and whether they will have access to Freep PvMP after RoI launches. Sapience said that the DP functionality is being considered for F2P/Premium but so far it hasn't been decided if they will add it or not. Asked about Freep access to Ettens for F2P/Premium he gave me a puzzled look and said that this was actually the first time someone had asked him that question (kudos to Crell_1 for that!). He said that while he does have a strong hunch about what the answer would be, he didn't know for sure and therefore really couldn't answer it. That's open to interpretation then, although my personal "hunch" is that it may be available, but with similar restrictions. Plenty of room to think either way though, so I guess it's fuel for yet another debate. [EDIT: Sapience has by now posted the definitive answer... Free/Premium players will not be able to play PvMP on their Freep characters. Link to his post] To be completely honest, I'm not 100% sure if I asked about what would be available in the Creep Store, but I think I did and I think the answer was that it was under the NDA and therefore not something that could be discussed as of yet.

Then we spoke briefly about the new PvMP zone (thanks Sentinelx1337!) that was mentioned a good while ago. Sapience said that while this was indeed something they want to bring into the game, there are no specific plans for it yet, meaning that even internally they have no estimated launch date for it.

Moving on, we talked for a while about the possibility of Turbine releasing a "roadmap" of sorts to the LOTRO community, much like they have done for DDO in the past (thanks Khafar!). Sapience of course was aware of what they did for DDO and said that he personally likes the concept, as do several other people on the LOTRO team. He went on to explain that there is a difference between the LOTRO and DDO communities, which is mainly that the DDO community (as opposed to ours, which is totally true, let's face it) doesn't take "plans" put forward as scripture. He said that the DDO players don't mind if something takes a little longer than expected but are generally only interested in simply knowing that it's in the works. But apparently it is something that they have considered (are considering) doing for LOTRO as well, perhaps at a later date.

On to the BIG one: instanced content in RoI launch. Sapience confirmed that there will be no new 3/6/12 man instances at launch, nor will any of the instances that currently don't scale be converted to scale to level. He also confirmed that yes, they ARE actually working on an instance cluster at this very moment and that progress is good, but when asked whether that would be released around Christmas or possibly later he simply said "Sure, or maybe even before Christmas. I really can't say anything more specific on that subject." I then asked him whether the instance cluster would be considered part of the original RoI purchase or whether it would have to be purchased separately, and he said that he simply couldn't comment on that yet (sorry Crell_1). Take that non-comment as you will - it may mean a plethora of things, but to me it only means that they either haven't decided or don't want to discuss it yet. I'm not making any assumptions either way, but that's me. [EDIT: Update! Sapience has confirmed that the instance cluster will consist of three 3-player, one 6-player and one 12-player instances. They'll be part of the upcoming Update 5, to be released "before the end of the year". The instance cluster will be FREE to anyone who has bought RoI either pre-order or (after Sept. 27th) via the Turbine Web Store - which is not the in-game Store!]

He went on to explain that the scaling of ALL instances is a work in progress, that they plan to keep moving forward with that. This would (eventually) include raids as well. As a side note, he said that any instance that is scaled will retain its original level as a minimum, so (for instance) DN will never be available to run at any level lower than 60. I asked specifically about The Rift and he grimaced. He said that The Rift was a special case... Since Rift seems to be the absolute all time most loved raid in this game, one that many players have extremely fond memories of and love for, they are still very unclear on how to properly handle its scaling. He said that if they were to eventually scale it, they would have to do it in a way like they did for Helegrod (i.e. split it up into separate instances) and that this would most likely be a huge disappointment and cause tremendous dissatisfaction with many players - even though, as he mentioned, it really already is just that: a series of separate instances. So while they do VERY much want to scale the Rift, it is something they are still thinking about, trying to find a more 'natural' way for it, to preserve as much of the original 'feel' as possible. It is important to note, in regards to the ongoing process of scaling instances, that it doesn't have priority over, say, the upcoming instance cluster, which to me sounds very logical and reasonable.

I mentioned reading about an update to the API for the Lua plugin system - Sapience confirmed that this will indeed be in RoI launch! He says it's still being finalised and that the dev working on it has a lot of other things to do before September 27th but he's confident that it will be completed on time. He went on to say that the UI skinning community will be thrilled to find a tremendously useful update on their tools and available skin definitions.

On to the LI system. I asked whether he could say anything about whether we would see any changes in that, mentioning the "Phase B" that some people (bastiat1 for one, thanks!) asked me to inquire about (which I myself didn't recognise as a term that's been used by Turbine and apparently Sapience didn't either). He said that it's almost certain that RoI launch will see a decent change in the LI system, but he couldn't go into further detail since it's still under NDA. Sorry I can't report anything specific about this, although I will say that to me it didn't seem like it would be a huge (i.e. significant) update/revamp.

One of the things that I've long thought are VERY much in need of an upgrade in LOTRO, as do many of you, is the Kinship system (Galuhad, you're truly a star and let's just say that the folks at Turbine are certainly aware of your proposal!). I spoke to Sapience about this at length. He explained that he agrees with me/us and so do many others on the Turbine staff. And for what it's worth... it IS on the to-do list, even though that list is awfully long. The main problem with it is that, as Sapience explained it, revamping the Kinship system would be a HUGE task, not something they can just whip up in a short time. It would require a rewrite of a significant portion of the client and therefore it's subject to being weighed time and again... is it as important to as many people as (in the current situation) a new instance cluster? (The answer for this current version is obvious: no, it isn't.) So while this is, again, something that many do feel strongly about and would love to implement, it's really a matter of how they spend their budget, which is (contrary to what some on here would seem to think) limited, finite. Paraphrasing his words: if I have one dollar to spend, I have to decide whether to spend it on something that 85% of the player base wants, and that the other 15% will actually also enjoy using, or something that a minority wants very badly, but doesn't mean as much to a big chunk of the rest. Take that as you will, I'll just say that while I'm certainly part of that minority that wants it very badly, I completely understand that Turbine are a business with a budget and that some things just don't have priority as much.

I thanked Sapience for taking all this time to talk to me (I really think that more than half an hour is extraordinary, since I'm just a fan, not a journalist) and he said that I'd forgotten to ask one question... THE MAPS! Hehe... Well in case you hadn't heard yet, or seen the (pictures taken of) screenies: the landmass being released in RoI is indeed 3 separate maps, not one. It's Dunland, Gap of Rohan and Isengard. And truly... it is quite big! Oh and I'd personally like to add that while I was initially taken aback somewhat by the leaked screenie of Orthanc, I now have to say that I will probably need to wear a diaper the first time I take my own character(s) there. It is BIG and scary as hell!
Sapience mentioned that the whole outrage about there being only one map (etc. etc.) shows once more why there is a need for a NDA; Beta is continually updated and what seems like a finished product on any given day can be completely different the next. So I guess the most sensible advice (as many have shared) would be: don't judge it until you see the finished product.

That's it, save for some random banter and chuckles. I'll close by mentioning that from my experience, I have to say Sapience truly is a nice person. I had a great time talking to him about LOTRO and his work. I'd say we're lucky to have him as a community team manager - he's a very dedicated and enthousiastic guy (leading an also dedicated and enthousiastic team) and that's something that goes a very long way, imo. Flame on, if you will, just my personal opinion

As said I'm happy to answer any further questions as far as I can recall with confidence what was said, but this is certainly the bulk and the most important information.

[EDIT]: It was quite a big wall of text, so I added some formatting/colouring to make it less scary

[Galuhad]

Thanks for the write up Hope you had a good time there.

One of the things that I've long thought are VERY much in need of an upgrade in LOTRO, as do many of you, is the Kinship system (Galuhad, you're truly a star and let's just say that the folks at Turbine are certainly aware of your proposal!). I spoke to Sapience about this at length. He explained that he agrees with me/us and so do many others on the Turbine staff. And for what it's worth... it IS on the to-do list, even though that list is awfully long. The main problem with it is that, as Sapience explained it, revamping the Kinship system would be a HUGE task, not something they can just whip up in a short time. It would require a rewrite of a significant portion of the client and therefore it's subject to being weighed time and again... is it as important to as many people as (in the current situation) a new instance cluster? (The answer for this current version is obvious: no, it isn't.) So while this is, again, something that many do feel strongly about and would love to implement, it's really a matter of how they spend their budget, which is (contrary to what some on here would seem to think) limited, finite. Paraphrasing his words: if I have one dollar to spend, I have to decide whether to spend it on something that 85% of the player base wants, and that the other 15% will actually also enjoy using, or something that a minority wants very badly, but doesn't mean as much to a big chunk of the rest. Take that as you will, I'll just say that while I'm certainly part of that minority that wants it very badly, I completely understand that Turbine are a business with a budget and that some things just don't have priority as much.

Good to hear that they are aware of the proposal, it's just a shame that it can't get a higher priority. I appreciate that a large player base would like new instances, but an even larger amount of players belong to at least one kinship that would truly benefit from a revamp. If I've seeded the idea for them to work on then great, I just hope we can see some changes before Mordor.. Perhaps when they've finished working on LIs they can take on this project.

[Kvnw24320]

Gz mate well done + Rep

[Arbalister]

Good work!

[WhitewolfUK]

I will admit that I am extremely disapointed that there are no new instances and that no more will be scaled for the launch of the expansion. Truly really am disapointed but I gotta say, thank you for the questions and your time to ask them and give us some new information.

[Arbalister]

I will admit that I am extremely disapointed that there are no new instances and that no more will be scaled for the launch of the expansion. Truly really am disapointed but I gotta say, thank you for the questions and your time to ask them and give us some new information.

I'm not...2 reasons - first off, they're already in the development cycle for inclusion, perhaps by year end...and...*not* having them now, and not having the others scaled up, means that for at least a few weeks there are going to be enough people trying to find groups for the Dragon raid, that it might actually be possible to get into it. :-)

[IyvanEU]

Thanks for going to the trouble to post all this info

Then we spoke briefly about the new PvMP zone (thanks Sentinelx1337!) that was mentioned a good while ago. Sapience said that while this was indeed something they want to bring into the game, there are no specific plans for it yet, meaning that even internally they have no estimated launch date for it.

I have to say, I'm very disappointed with this, considering this was promised in the original press release here:

http://www.lotro.com/news/pressreleases/910

So we have gone from that, to "it won't make RoI but will be launched soon after" - which I could accept, since clearly a new instance cluster is a work in progress too, yet now it seems that it has been abandoned again. I feel a bit cheated by this as it feels as though the same stunt that was pulled with MoM regarding PvP, which also originally promised a new PvP zone has been pulled off again.

[The_Carolinian]

Thank you very much for your time! +rep indeed

[Lowj]

not having the others scaled up, means that for at least a few weeks there are going to be enough people trying to find groups for the Dragon raid, that it might actually be possible to get into it. :-)

Great point! I hadn't even thought of that one yet, but it makes total sense! Thanks

[Crell_1]

I then asked some questions (Thanks Crell_1!) about F2P/Premium accounts...Asked about Freep access to Ettens for F2P/Premium he gave me a puzzled look and said that this was actually the first time someone had asked him that question (kudos to Crell_1 for that!). He said that while he does have a strong hunch about what the answer would be, he didn't know for sure and therefore really couldn't answer it.

First, a huge thank you for putting these questions in front of +Sapience. I've asked ALL them quite a number of times going as far back as the Turbine expansion announcement of PvMP access, and hadn't gotten anything resembling a response. Perhaps he can dig into this and find out something to tell us at PAX Prime?

Oh.. and now that I think about it, any remarks about swift travel?

He went on to explain that the scaling of ALL instances is a work in progress, that they plan to keep moving forward with that. ... He said that The Rift was a special case... He said that if they were to eventually scale it, they would have to do it in a way like they did for Helegrod (i.e. split it up into separate instances) and that this would most likely be a huge disappointment and cause tremendous dissatisfaction with many players - even though, as he mentioned, it really already is just that: a series of separate instances. So while they do VERY much want to scale the Rift, it is something they are still thinking about, trying to find a more 'natural' way for it, to preserve as much of the original 'feel' as possible. It is important to note, in regards to the ongoing process of scaling instances, that it doesn't have priority over, say, the upcoming instance cluster, which to me sounds very logical and reasonable.

Thank you for acknowledging the communities fears surrounding the Rift. Here's the deal.; We love it, we've seen lots of time put into it. We already have raid-locks so you dont have to splice the instance into separate parts.; I acknowledge that to me, the splitting it up into parts is what would cause it the most harm in my eyes; I'll admit, I go, I'm after the boss items (cosmetically.) That's about it, but at the same time, we dont want to see what happened with helegrod, people running small pieces of the content, all the time and never experiencing the entire instance to get the rewards.

Paraphrasing his words: if I have one dollar to spend, I have to decide whether to spend it on something that 85% of the player base wants, and that the other 15% will actually also enjoy using, or something that a minority wants very badly, but doesn't mean as much to a big chunk of the rest. Take that as you will, I'll just say that while I'm certainly part of that minority that wants it very badly, I completely understand that Turbine are a business with a budget and that some things just don't have priority as much.

I'm glad you included that for the benefit of people who don't seem to understand how the process works.

I thanked Sapience for taking all this time to talk to me (I really think that more than half an hour is extraordinary, since I'm just a fan, not a journalist) and he said that I'd forgotten to ask one question... THE MAPS! ....Sapience mentioned that the whole outrage about there being only one map (etc. etc.) shows once more why there is a need for a NDA; Beta is continually updated and what seems like a finished product on any given day can be completely different the next. So I guess the most sensible advice (as many have shared) would be: don't judge it until you see the finished product.

There's a difference between judging based on leaked NDA material and making logical assumptions based on the development process. We've seen them do quite a number of things with zoom levels, maps, and Moria. Scale is not what you expect, and Turbine doesn't set the 'real size' so much as they populate the content. While I can be disappointed about the lack of 3/6/12 mans, I know that the maps can't really express the epic feel to this landscape. It's never about the size of a map, its about the playability, feel, and enjoyment of every block of landscape created (160x160 client blocks).

That's it, save for some random banter and chuckles. I'll close by mentioning that from my experience, I have to say Sapience truly is a nice person. I had a great time talking to him about LOTRO and his work. I'd say we're lucky to have him as a community team manager - he's a very dedicated and enthusiastic guy (leading an also dedicated and enthusiastic team) and that's something that goes a very long way, imo.

Thanks again to +Sapience for taking his time to answer your questions as well as engage the community over the whole regional mess. I imagine the community would appreciate some +Turbine posts to help silence some of back and forth arguing over what was and wasn't said by Turbine so our forums can get to being the friendly place I've come to know over the last year or so.

As said I'm happy to answer any further questions as far as I can recall with confidence what was said, but this is certainly the bulk and the most important information.

...Just final one, and I'll admit it's selfish. Did you pose the Palantir Question, and if so, did you get a response other than 'I can't talk about it'.

[Arbalister]

Great point! I hadn't even thought of that one yet, but it makes total sense! Thanks

Just so you know, Celestrata has posted here confirming your info from Sapience...sort of. :-)


Oh...any objections to me adding your info to the RoI FAQ?

[Arvaen]

I then asked some questions (thanks Crell_1!) about F2P/Premium accounts - whether there are any plans to add Destiny Points functionality to those account types and whether they will have access to Freep PvMP after RoI launches. Sapience said that the DP functionality is being considered for F2P/Premium but so far it hasn't been decided if they will add it or not. Asked about Freep access to Ettens for F2P/Premium he gave me a puzzled look and said that this was actually the first time someone had asked him that question (kudos to Crell_1 for that!). He said that while he does have a strong hunch about what the answer would be, he didn't know for sure and therefore really couldn't answer it. That's open to interpretation then, although my personal "hunch" is that it may be available, but with similar restrictions. Plenty of room to think either way though, so I guess it's fuel for yet another debate. To be completely honest, I'm not 100% sure if I asked about what would be available in the Creep Store, but I think I did and I think the answer was that it was under the NDA and therefore not something that could be discussed as of yet.

+ Repped

I'm interested to see how they intend to have F2P/Premium players advance in MP if they choose not to allow DP access.

[TheAsk]

Thanks for posting this Loge, a nice read!

Although, that being said, it disheartenings me that Turbine don't realise, how many customer they will loose by not including a new PvMP map or instance cluster in a WHOLE EXPANSION. My 5 cents on that ~75% of the non-casual lotro community will quit lotro september 26th or a few weeks after release.

[WhitewolfUK]

I'm not...2 reasons - first off, they're already in the development cycle for inclusion, perhaps by year end...and...*not* having them now, and not having the others scaled up, means that for at least a few weeks there are going to be enough people trying to find groups for the Dragon raid, that it might actually be possible to get into it. :-)

Oh dont get me wrong, I'll still play the expansion seeing as I have pre ordered it but I wont be spending as much time as I'd like too on it.

[Arbalister]

TMy 5 cents on that ~75% of the non-casual lotro community will quit lotro september 26th or a few weeks after release.

But what does that mean? 75% of 5% of the playerbase? We don't know, Turbine does. Sort of have to trust them - as Sapience explained in the information above...when they make the decision on where to spend the development dollar...do they spend it on something the minority wants?

[Lowj]

Just so you know, Celestrata has posted here confirming your info from Sapience...sort of. :-)


Oh...any objections to me adding your info to the RoI FAQ?

Oh that's so great! Thanks, much appreciated

No objections at all, add whatever you think is relevant!

[Lowj]

First, a huge thank you for putting these questions in front of +Sapience. I've asked ALL them quite a number of times going as far back as the Turbine expansion announcement of PvMP access, and hadn't gotten anything resembling a response. Perhaps he can dig into this and find out something to tell us at PAX Prime?

Oh.. and now that I think about it, any remarks about swift travel?

*snip*

...Just final one, and I'll admit it's selfish. Did you pose the Palantir Question, and if so, did you get a response other than 'I can't talk about it'.

You're quite welcome! When I got confirmation that I would be going, and was thinking about what I would ask if I got the chance, I quickly realised that I was really in a fortunate position to even be going there. I know I'll be very happy with any information being shared by other forum posters who will be visiting Pax, so it seemed natural to involve some of you guys. Just wish I'd known sooner, so I could've prepared a more decent list, I guess.

As to your two unanswered questions: when I compiled the final list of questions on Sunday morning, I really had NO idea how much time I would actually get. I honestly thought he (or anyone else) would not have more than 5 minutes, so I chose not to include those two, since they seemed (to me) to be less important. I would probably have asked them, had I been more clear-headed and actually remembered reading them. By the way, the one about the Kinship system was one of my personal ones, but it wasn't on the list either. I asked it later when I found that I had the time for it.

[Lowj]

Thank you very much for your time! +rep indeed

Glad I could give you guys some honest info, straight from the horse... errr... Community Team Manager's mouth

[stubing]

I went to Gamescom in Cologne, Germany, yesterday and managed to meet up with Sapience, who as it turns out is a very friendly and enthousiastic guy! I had hoped to get a quick 5 minutes with him but he actually kept chatting with me for over half an hour

Sapience is a guy?

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Thanks a lot for this.

He also confirmed that yes, they ARE actually working on an instance cluster at this very moment and that progress is good, but when asked whether that would be released around Christmas or possibly later he simply said "Sure, or maybe even before Christmas. I really can't say anything more specific on that subject."

That's reassuring.

[Faitha81]

thanks for the great post ( + rep for you ) , like i posted in another thread i will prolly lvl ma main to 75 and mabay and alt and that will be it till we get the instance cluster.. sure we will have the dragon raid but it will prolly have a 1 week lock ... really hoping we see these new instances this year and not in march or something next year.

[Crell_1]

By the way, the one about the Kinship system was one of my personal ones, but it wasn't on the list either. I asked it later when I found that I had the time for it.

That was actually quite nice, I'd totally forgotten any of my /kinship future planning inquiries so it was very beneficial. Maybe I can coax AlphaMan or someone at Pax into asking them.

[PypeRings]

Then we spoke briefly about the new PvMP zone (thanks Sentinelx1337!) that was mentioned a good while ago. Sapience said that while this was indeed something they want to bring into the game, there are no specific plans for it yet, meaning that even internally they have no estimated launch date for it.

Well that, plus this:
http://www.lotro.com/news/pressreleases/910
equals I get my 30 bucks back.

Sorry to be such a downer. It just business.

[Fin.]

+ Repped

I'm interested to see how they intend to have F2P/Premium players advance in MP if they choose not to allow DP access.

You spend TP instead of DP.

I then asked him whether the instance cluster would be considered part of the original RoI purchase or whether it would have to be purchased separately, and he said that he simply couldn't comment on that yet (sorry Crell_1).

How can they not comment on this??? Of course it should be free and considered as part of RoI purchase.

As for the Kinship revamp.

I don't have any statistical numbers but during 4 years of playing seems like 95% of lotro population is in a kin. Kins and the social interaction within them is what builds the community and the sense of MULTIPLAYER game, at least I think so. Reading the response from Sapience and based on previous Turbine work, kinship revamp will maybe come in 1,5-2,5 years.

Concerning LI revamp Part 2.

taken from Producer's letter

Next Steps with Legendary Items

– We’re planning on doing two upgrades to Legendary Items next year – one in the Q1 release, and one later in the year. The goal is to respond to a bunch of your feedback and to incorporate some more versatility, flexibility and less randomness into the system. We’ll certainly be releasing a dev diary on the Q1 changes as we get into next year.

Sapience is not aware that they announced such thing? I can't believe that. But from the response, seems like there will be some very minor change coming with RoI and that will be stamped as LI revamp part 2.

[Lowj]

Well that, plus this:
http://www.lotro.com/news/pressreleases/910
equals I get my 30 bucks back.

Sorry to be such a downer. It just business.

Sorry to disagree with you but I do. I doubt it means that. There's no confirmation whatsoever that RoI (whether at launch or at a later date) will NOT include the new PvMP zone. All he said was that he couldn't mention a date or even an approximation of one.