How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[MurkyMajare]

Does anyone know yet (approx) how much finesse is needed against lvl 75 mobs/bosses?

[Reniannen]

Does anyone know yet (approx) how much finesse is needed against lvl 75 mobs/bosses?

Depends how much resistance and b/p/e are you aiming to cut off of them.

[Tennent]

If you are under the finesse gate, you cower.

No you won't

Finesse will work the same way.

No it doesn't

[Leonide]

No you won't

No it doesn't

Erm. Replace ''finesse'' by ''radiance''. My mistake.

I meant to say that finesse works exaclty the same way as tact/melee/range offense.

[MurkyMajare]

Depends how much resistance and b/p/e are you aiming to cut off of them.

*Sigh*

Yes, of course.

But you do need around 100 or around 10.000 ?

Of course you can live with 99% b/p/e, but it is so much nicer to have 0%.

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

[MajUntagent]

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

considering you get a couple thousand finesse from the draigoch set before adding in anything from jewellery/class skils, i'd expect it'd be closer to 1000 points = 1% than 1 point= 1% (though at the same time, i doubt it'd give that little for that). anyone in beta got some screens of their finesse so we can get a rough idea of what the amounts give?

[mptyspacez]

isn't the mechanic that it reduces howmuch % a mob gets to b/p/e from the ratings that they have for those stats?

so if normally they'd get 1% for 300 rating, now they'll get 0.9% for 300

or have I completely misunderstood?

in any case, it won't be like radiance, and assuming it will be is complete nonsense. it seems to be incredibly easy to acquire, and it's useful in non-raid environment as well, making it just another stat that makes your life easier.

[LetsDance]

The difference is that you won't need a specific amount of finesse for a raid.

Technically you wont 'need' a set amount of finesse to enter a raid in the same way you dont 'need' to have any class traits or virtues equipped / ranked at present.

Within a relatively short amount of time raid leaders will insist that each raider has a minimum amount of finesse, particularly classes such as tanks. Any items containing finesse that can be crafted will be gated, for example you'll need to be master of the crafting guild plus kindred with the new tribes. Without that you cant buy and craft the new recipes.

Besides, the items with the most finesse, the ones that will really make your raid leader happy will be a grind to acquire.

I'll take finesse over radiance but I'd rather the game stayed as is. Finesse is most definitely a form of gating, I've ready the term 'soft gating' which seems apt.

[Amphoras]

*Sigh*

Yes, of course.

But you do need around 100 or around 10.000 ?

Of course you can live with 99% b/p/e, but it is so much nicer to have 0%.

So how much % does each point of finesse reduce?
1 = 1% or 1000 = 1% ?

considering you get a couple thousand finesse from the draigoch set before adding in anything from jewellery/class skils, i'd expect it'd be closer to 1000 points = 1% than 1 point= 1% (though at the same time, i doubt it'd give that little for that). anyone in beta got some screens of their finesse so we can get a rough idea of what the amounts give?

isn't the mechanic that it reduces howmuch % a mob gets to b/p/e from the ratings that they have for those stats?

so if normally they'd get 1% for 300 rating, now they'll get 0.9% for 300

or have I completely misunderstood?

in any case, it won't be like radiance, and assuming it will be is complete nonsense. it seems to be incredibly easy to acquire, and it's useful in non-raid environment as well, making it just another stat that makes your life easier.

Your finesse rating is subtracted from there b/p/e/resistance ratings before their b/p/e/resistance % is calculated. So if you have 1000 finesse, it will be like they lost 1000 b/p/e/resistance. The percentage listed when you hover over finesse is the approximate % it reduces them by, the same way crit defence reduces their crit rating.

[Jadzi]

Here's some example numbers, finesse rating to approximate percentage.

344 - 1.1%
350 - 1.2%
547 - 1.8%
634 - 2.1%
672 - 2.2%
804 - 2.6%
869 - 2.8%
876 - 2.9%
897 - 2.9%
956 - 3.1%
984 - 3.2%
1181 - 3.8%
1198 - 3.9%
1226 - 4.0%
1306 - 4.2%
1351 - 4.3%
1423 - 4.6%
1503 - 4.8%
1507 - 4.8%
1531 - 4.9%
1543 - 4.9%
1548 - 4.9%
1760 - 5.6%
1788 - 5.7%
1853 - 5.9%
1941 - 6.1 %
1985 - 6.3%
2002 - 6.4%
2030 - 6.4%
2141 - 6.7%
2307 - 7.2%
2335 - 7.3%
2503 - 7.8%
2549 - 7.9%
2577 - 8.0%
2937 - 9.0%
3101 - 9.4%
3137 - 9.5%
3499 - 10.5%
3535 - 10.6%
3897 - 11.6%
4097 - 12.1%
4495 - 13.1%
4531 - 13.2%
4893 - 14.1%
5093 - 14.6%
5491 - 15.6%

[Teldra]

Another way to figure it is that 4 pieces of the lvl 75 minstrel armor have +996 finesse. Three do not. There is a cloak and ring with finesse. So if you are rank 9, with the proper preexisting gear, and level 75 you will start with at least 4000 finesse.

On the flip side, the raid set of minstrel gear has NO finesse by design. According to Orion, we dont need it. Its going to be a tough raid if you are required to have finesse and no minstrels showed up.

Teldra

[cossieuk]

Finesse has a cap according to the dev diary so you wont need every bit of armour or jewellery with it

The hope is that a player will be about at their maximum finesse efficiency by wearing roughly 3 pieces on-level with the space.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...ry-itemization

Also the reason there is none on the minstrel raid set is that the set has stats that relate to healing and since finesse reduces the resistances and B/P/E of mobs it is not needed for healing

[Cadd_EU]

On the flip side, the raid set of minstrel gear has NO finesse by design. According to Orion, we dont need it. Its going to be a tough raid if you are required to have finesse and no minstrels showed up.

Teldra

I'm guessing the Minstrel Raid set doesn't have finesse because the set is healing focused, right? If you're healing you're not very bothered with the B/P/E of the mobs you're fighting...

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Within a relatively short amount of time raid leaders will insist that each raider has a minimum amount of finesse, particularly classes such as tanks. Any items containing finesse that can be crafted will be gated, for example you'll need to be master of the crafting guild plus kindred with the new tribes. Without that you cant buy and craft the new recipes.

Besides, the items with the most finesse, the ones that will really make your raid leader happy will be a grind to acquire.

How is this any different to the current situation? Will a tank perform optimally in Ost Dunhoth with 6k morale? No. The raid leader will want someone with more. How do you get more morale? By getting better gear.

Soft gating is mostly a player-side thing and it already exists. Not just for morale. Offences, defences, outgoing and incoming healing. Having more will make you perform better. Finesse is no different.

I can't say I understand these fears. Did everyone also react this way when they were going to introduce critical defences to the game?

[Jeunefie]

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

First of all, how will finesse affect the b/p/e % of the mob. I read somewhere that X finesse will not directly subtract X b/p/e but will just reduce b/p/e by a percentage (Well i don't know about this, if someone can clarify this). Anyway what will u do as a DPS (since you are talking about killing quick and having a hard time HITTING THINGS):

1 Hit the mobs head on like a man or
2 play smart and hit from behind (That will be me) while letting the tank be a man.
3 Rage and stop attacking since your attacks are missing 4/10 times. (Saying to yourself " no point in attacking since i am not dealing much damage")

[ElanMorinTedroni]

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

This can be said of any stat. Without Agility you're not hitting much either, so you're not doing a lot of damage. Without Might you can hit as often as you like, but you still won't be doing much damage. Without Vitality you won't have enough morale to survive the AoEs in a given fight, so you'll die and, again, your dps will be limited by your mortality. No Will means no power means no damage. No Fate means no icpr means no damage.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

And who's going to say how much finesse you'll need? It's not like you'll be able to see how much p/b/e the mob has... With radiance you needed at least so much radiance to counteract a known amount of dread/gloom. In the middle of a raid, how often are you looking at the yellow numbers over your screen-filling target? With ten out of twelve people hitting the boss, who's gonna be able to call anyone out? "Bob! You're not getting enough hits! Go get more Finesse before you come back here!" *boot*

I think Finesse will be no more of a gating mechanic than stats like in-coming healing or agility. Minstrels and healing RKs, for example, won't need any Finesse for a raid 'cause they won't be hitting the mobs unless things have already gone very, very wrong.

[moduz]

For one, finesse differs from radiance in that it finesse gear is all over the place. You can easily get 4k+ finesse without even trying.

[Jadzi]

Finesse has a cap according to the dev diary so you wont need every bit of armour or jewellery with it

I'm not sure that's what was meant by that. "Maximum finesse efficiency" is different from "maximum finesse".

For instance, 5491 is the rating I got with three PvMP pieces, two PvMP rings, the crafted cloak, plus the store-bought finesse scroll at the level cap. That brought me to an approximated 15.6%. And I can still think of a piece I could swap in to push it a little higher. So unless the cap is 16 or 20% (which you won't hit with three pieces), there's not a cap.

Remember though, finesse reduces mob resistances and B/P/E - that is, you hit more often. It says nothing about piercing their mitigations or damage reduction skills. Remember too that it's been mentioned higher-end mobs (instanced and some landscape bosses) will have access to their own finesse - which means you'll still want some balance.

[Wilkens]

I'm not sure that's what was meant by that. "Maximum finesse efficiency" is different from "maximum finesse".

For instance, 5491 is the rating I got with three PvMP pieces, two PvMP rings, the crafted cloak, plus the store-bought finesse scroll at the level cap. That brought me to an approximated 15.6%. And I can still think of a piece I could swap in to push it a little higher. So unless the cap is 16 or 20% (which you won't hit with three pieces), there's not a cap.

Remember though, finesse reduces mob resistances and B/P/E - that is, you hit more often. It says nothing about piercing their mitigations or damage reduction skills. Remember too that it's been mentioned higher-end mobs (instanced and some landscape bosses) will have access to their own finesse - which means you'll still want some balance.

Two thoughts here:

Player B/P/E is getting re-capped up to 25% so if they put Mob B/P/E on the same footing then you could use Finesse up to 25% before it becomes excessive. Moreover since it works exactly the same as crit defense (each point of finesse subtracts an equal number of points from the opponents effective B/P/E rating) each point is essentially as effective as the next. In fact it would actually be rising returns. Since the Mob is calculating B/P/E their ratings are subject to diminishing returns, in turn this means that each point subtracted from the Mob's rating pushes it further down the scale in terms of return on each point thus Finesse has greater returns as it goes higher...unless they made Mob's immune to diminishing returns in which case it still is a stat that doesn't experience diminishing returns but rather flat returns.

Second thought, since Mob Finesse affects PC B/P/E ratings thats more an argument for stacking your own B/P/E even above cap much as it makes sense to overcap on crit right now.

[Graalx2]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

[Entomb-EU]

might be a stupid question towards graal but here it goes.

I am assuming that every creature in Lotro can B/P/E even without a shield? and that thus we should always devide our Finesse % by 3 to see how much is pulled off block, parry and evade individually?

[Tolfast]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

Is this the same the other way around, so mobs will also take % of us? That could really hurt a warden's avoidance

[Lycaunoss]

Is there a way to counteract finesse? Other than stacking b/p/e like crazy I mean. Because this does effect a Warden a lot since they rely on avoidance for most of their defense.

Maybe I just can't see the big picture but I don't think finesse was needed in the game and I wonder how long it's going to be till the player base starts screaming about how bad an idea it was just like Radiance and it gets ripped out.

[Lycaunoss]

Does anyone know yet (approx) how much finesse is needed against lvl 75 mobs/bosses?

I can't exactly answer this but I can give you an idea I guess. In beta when I was lvl 65 hunter I was not able to kill a lvl 71 dunlanding mob. Using hunters art which I think added at the time 500ish (might have been 700ish) was enough for me to be able to kill one of those mobs. That was not what I would consider a clean kill mind you. I squeaked out a win and that was just standing toe to toe blazing away.

[interactii]

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

Resist is still static subtraction of percentages, correct?