How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[Vhalantru]

I can't exactly answer this but I can give you an idea I guess. In beta when I was lvl 65 hunter I was not able to kill a lvl 71 dunlanding mob. Using hunters art which I think added at the time 500ish (might have been 700ish) was enough for me to be able to kill one of those mobs. That was not what I would consider a clean kill mind you. I squeaked out a win and that was just standing toe to toe blazing away.

Well that mob is 6 levels above you and should be near impossible to hit anyway. Are not even raidmobs under the old system only 3 levels higher than the current level cap?

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

So you've decided to just totally screw over the warden, eh?

[gonewhaned]

Well that mob is 6 levels above you and should be near impossible to hit anyway. Are not even raidmobs under the old system only 3 levels higher than the current level cap?

Plus they've also said that landscape mobs would have no higher B/P/E then before... So finesse is always a straight improvement. In honestly I doubt once people have played with it, that they will be calling for its removal. Its a well implemented new stat for us to consider. Mind as my main is a healer I don't give a .... but my other classes as alts will be able to build a decent amount by themselves without any extra trouble.

[striverg]

So you've decided to just totally screw over the warden, eh?

this is exactly what I'm thinking... unless somehow we get a "ghost" % over the cap from stacking rating we will never be able to have close to the b/p/e we need to compete with a guardian's new mitigation advantage.

Is this something that will be addressed graal?

[Aeronth]

I hope this is a misunderstanding.

I thought wardens' strength was supposed to be their avoidance ?

[dietlbomb]

Player B/P/E is getting re-capped up to 25% so if they put Mob B/P/E on the same footing then you could use Finesse up to 25% before it becomes excessive. Moreover since it works exactly the same as crit defense (each point of finesse subtracts an equal number of points from the opponents effective B/P/E rating) each point is essentially as effective as the next. In fact it would actually be rising returns. Since the Mob is calculating B/P/E their ratings are subject to diminishing returns, in turn this means that each point subtracted from the Mob's rating pushes it further down the scale in terms of return on each point thus Finesse has greater returns as it goes higher...unless they made Mob's immune to diminishing returns in which case it still is a stat that doesn't experience diminishing returns but rather flat returns.

Second thought, since Mob Finesse affects PC B/P/E ratings thats more an argument for stacking your own B/P/E even above cap much as it makes sense to overcap on crit right now.

this is exactly what I'm thinking... unless somehow we get a "ghost" % over the cap from stacking rating we will never be able to have close to the b/p/e we need to compete with a guardian's new mitigation advantage.

Is this something that will be addressed graal?

I'm guessing they did this to make finesse have diminishing returns as opposed to rising returns. I'd imagine finesse will have its own diminishing returns formula to weigh against players' BPE stats. There's still a month of testing. (We'll know they messed up if wardens start finding items with 'Finesse Defense' )

[duamarth]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

Doesn't this severely weaken the use of stacking BPE? And...doesn't that hurt wardens far more than anyone else, given that stacking BPE is their primarily line of defense, especially come RoI?

Honestly, I'd be happier if finesse wasn't being added (Doesn't it strike you, devs, as counterproductive to work toward more itemization and gear choices in game while at the same time adding stats that are as necessary as finesse that also severely diminish the use of other stats like BPE?)

I'm puzzled.

[Minyacairwen]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Does that change just affect BPE ? So finesse+resistances are working "the old way" ?

Also, will it be possible for a lore-master to "scan" the finesse rating of mobs ? (even if it's just general information like Beleriand/westernis/dwarf-make susceptibiliites)

[Schinderhannes]

I'm not sure, but if a mob is unable to block&parry while attacking him from behind, does finesse consider this and affects only avoidiance in this case?

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

I'm guessing they did this to make finesse have diminishing returns as opposed to rising returns. I'd imagine finesse will have its own diminishing returns formula to weigh against players' BPE stats. There's still a month of testing. (We'll know they messed up if wardens start finding items with 'Finesse Defense' )

Diminishing returns only makes sense for the dps player's side. You don't want players stacking finesse above all else. However, it makes zero sense for the mob's side, as the devs just set the value to whatever they want. Meanwhile, of the 3 tanks Guardian and Champ are not really effected much at all by this change, while Warden is hit with the nerf bat of doom. What's the point of stacking bpe if not only do we get diminishing returns just stacking a rating, but that the diminishment-effect is quadrupled by the finesse being applied as a percentage?

Let's see finesse apply to armor as well, to the point that heavy armor is basically useless over medium armor, and we'll see how much Guardians and Champs like THAT change.

[Lycaunoss]

Diminishing returns only makes sense for the dps player's side. You don't want players stacking finesse above all else. However, it makes zero sense for the mob's side, as the devs just set the value to whatever they want. Meanwhile, of the 3 tanks Guardian and Champ are not really effected much at all by this change, while Warden is hit with the nerf bat of doom. What's the point of stacking bpe if not only do we get diminishing returns just stacking a rating, but that the diminishment-effect is quadrupled by the finesse being applied as a percentage?

Let's see finesse apply to armor as well, to the point that heavy armor is basically useless over medium armor, and we'll see how much Guardians and Champs like THAT change.

What you are saying here I think is the real problem with finesse. It doesn't effect heavy armour wearers nearly as much because the armour mitigation keeps guard and champ "ok" compared to the warden. If the change that GraalX2 is talking about has gone into effect on beta already then it does make a positive difference in the small ammount of testing I've done with my warden. I can say that if I stay with my balanced traiting I won't be able to tank any longer as ward simply because the mobs eat me alive. Guards seem to have their own problems because it causes their reactives to not proc. There is at least one warden that is going all out to maximize bpe and I'm curious to see how that works out. It will be disappointing if we must slot all the relics and gear necessary to max out bpe at the expense of everything else.

[Lomeloth]

Guards seem to have their own problems because it causes their reactives to not proc.

^This.

Guardians may well have mitigation advantages, but they'll be pointless in tanking if the mob isn't trying to hit us... We need our B/P/E reactives to generate aggro. If they don't fire, the mob ceases to be interested in us. So it's potentially causing problems for 2/3 tank classes, in different ways. Hopefully they can figure out a way to tune it that doesn't wind up fixing one and further hurting the other...

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

^This.

Guardians may well have mitigation advantages, but they'll be pointless in tanking if the mob isn't trying to hit us... We need our B/P/E reactives to generate aggro. If they don't fire, the mob ceases to be interested in us. So it's potentially causing problems for 2/3 tank classes, in different ways. Hopefully they can figure out a way to tune it that doesn't wind up fixing one and further hurting the other...

Telling DPS to slow down their rotations on a high finesse boss because the Guard will have less aggro is something they can easily do.

Telling the group that they need to bring an extra healer just to keep the warden alive? They'll just say, "get a real tank"

[JasonEvan]

We recently changed the way Finesse is applied to Block/Parry/Evade. Finesse is now converted to a percentage and then the percentage is applied to the target's BPE. It no longer subtracts directly from the rating.

Say you have 2937 finesse. This converts to 9% (using the handy chart posted earlier, no idea if its correct but let's use those numbers for now). Finesse uses the same ratings to percentage conversion as Block/Parry/Evade.

You attack a target with 1226 (4%) Block rating, 1226(4%) Parry rating and 1226(4%) Evade rating.

The target will Block 1% of the time 4-(9/3) = 1%.
The target will Parry 1% of the time.
The target will Evade 1% of the time.

So let me get this straight: You give the Champ and Captain the ability to be decent tanks, and then hinder the tanking ability of Wardens and Guardians with Finesse? Guardians rely on B/P/E for our threat generation. We also can't understand your changes to the Guardian class if you don't explain them more. I really am totally lost as to why Finesse is being added in the game. At best this will create a player installed gate, where people treat it like radiance for instance play. You devs may not be gating the content, but I guarantee that on a few servers, players will create those gates by only allowing non-anons with enough Finesse into parties. At least Warden threat is not reliant on B/P/E for threat generation. Guardians on the other hand are totally reliant on B/P/E for ours. Fortunately, my Warden is level 62 as of this post.

Graalx2, I really wish you would stop by the Guardian thread and explain some things to us about our class and how it is going to shine in a post-RoI world. All of us Guardians are a little discouraged at the moment and could use a pep talk.

[Lycaunoss]

So let me get this straight: You give the Champ and Captain the ability to be decent tanks, and then hinder the tanking ability of Wardens and Guardians with Finesse?

I believe that the intent of finesse was to make guards and wardens shine and be a requirement for fellowship content and above. The effect we see where the tanks are having trouble surviving is probably 2-3x worse for non tanks. When you pull aggro on your hunter and it's a high finesse mob you are really gonna regret it. The problem right now is that it's impacting the tanks too much and needs to be scaled back or give tanks something to counteract it.

[Lomeloth]

Telling DPS to slow down their rotations on a high finesse boss because the Guard will have less aggro is something they can easily do.

Telling the group that they need to bring an extra healer just to keep the warden alive? They'll just say, "get a real tank"

The laughability of your first comment aside (it's irrelevant if they slow DPS to nearly 0 if I can't generate aggro), you're missing my point: Both classes are affected, and both need their concerns addressed. That I have concerns for my Guardian doesn't mean I don't think Wardens have no complaints, or that theirs might not be larger than mine. Neither should insist only their problem has merit, or only theirs should be resolved.

[horus418]

Explain how guards threat in reference to reactives are going down in RoI, when your BPE ratings are going up. Even using Graal's example, it is easy to see that guard's threat is going UP, not down.

I'm starting to wonder if people just don't understand things or if smoke is being blown in to dark places deliberately.

[Arness]

Okay, someone please explain this to me. Finesse affects b/p/e. Minstrel ROI set has no finesse on it. So minstrels soloing, or if your tank dies and you inherit the aggro, or if you get healing aggro, you don't get the benefits to b/p/e - so minstrels are missing what other classes get?

[Cadd_EU]

Okay, someone please explain this to me. Finesse affects b/p/e. Minstrel ROI set has no finesse on it. So minstrels soloing, or if your tank dies and you inherit the aggro, or if you get healing aggro, you don't get the benefits to b/p/e - so minstrels are missing what other classes get?

It has been said that the Minstrel Raid set is made for healing, when healing you're not hitting the mobs, and as such you don't care about penetrating their b/p/e.

Again: Your own Finesse has no bearing on your own b/p/e, or the mob's Finesse, so it only matters when you're hitting things yourself.

[Aeronth]

The laughability of your first comment aside (it's irrelevant if they slow DPS to nearly 0 if I can't generate aggro), you're missing my point: Both classes are affected, and both need their concerns addressed. That I have concerns for my Guardian doesn't mean I don't think Wardens have no complaints, or that theirs might not be larger than mine. Neither should insist only their problem has merit, or only theirs should be resolved.

I had a dream !

I saw guardians, wardens, holding hands in circles, baking cookys, singing love songs, standing together and saying NO to the new finesse system !

[ThePuzzler]

So you've decided to just totally screw over the warden, eh?

Wardens will have BPE of around 15-20% with their buffs up, I assume. -3% to BPE wouldn't be that devastating. Unless of course, 9% finesse isn't a high number at all, and will go significantly higher on certain mobs. In that case, Wardens will want to have every buff they have up at all times.

[Lycaunoss]

I cannot speak to the guard issues but I'll throw you some numbers from my warden. The only thing that I really consider sub standard is my agility because it's lower than I would prefer but I havn't got a full set of lvl 75 jewellry so I suspect these numbers to still be a little low. All these numbers are buffed by the appropriate skills and I got them from a skirmish where I can get them higher with personal traits so keep that in mind. I am able to hit 19.7% block, 15.1% parry, and 20.7% evade. On live in the same skirmish at lvl 65 I'm capped accross the board at 15%. So I'm looking at roughly 10% increase all told. According to the combat log I blocked 3 attacks, parried 2 and evaded 2 and I got one parial block. This was from 8 mobs attacking me plus 2 lieutenants (forest born reaver and echo of death in case you are interested) while I did little more than buff my block, parry and evade and autoattack.

For the record the closest I came to dieing was about 1200 morale max right now is 8667. This is considerably bettter than it was previously since I would never have survived before the last round of changes were made. On live I could have virtually stood there and autoattacked my way through. So the numbers are higher but I'm not bpe'ing to the level that the numbers are suggesting. The only thing that I have no way of determining is how much finesse the mobs have.

I am aware that the ammount of data is not nearly enough to be statisticly relevant but this is what I'm experiencing. Also in defense of the devs there's what a month to tweak it still? It's not doom and gloom by any stretch but it also isn't unlimited caps = invincible tanks.

[Roufneck]

I've got two questions...

Finesse lowers the B/P/E from my target right? Does that mean it lowers only my targets B/P/E for me or also for the whole raid? I mean if it helps lowering the B/P/E for the whole raid, I might as well hit the target a few times as a minstrel and equip some finesse.

Does agility still have the effect to improve my hit chance? Just wondering since finesse seems to be doing this.

[Lycaunoss]

I've got two questions...

Finesse lowers the B/P/E from my target right? Does that mean it lowers only my targets B/P/E for me or also for the whole raid? I mean if it helps lowering the B/P/E for the whole raid, I might as well hit the target a few times as a minstrel and equip some finesse.

Does agility still have the effect to improve my hit chance? Just wondering since finesse seems to be doing this.

It lowers your targets ability to bpe your attacks. Just yours since everyone will have their own finesse.

Agility does a lot of things and I believe it does different things for different toons. On my Warden it adds to critical, parry, some other stuff that I can't remember. The tooltip now shows how much rating it adds to each thing which is nice.

[duamarth]

Wardens will have BPE of around 15-20% with their buffs up, I assume. -3% to BPE wouldn't be that devastating. Unless of course, 9% finesse isn't a high number at all, and will go significantly higher on certain mobs. In that case, Wardens will want to have every buff they have up at all times.

Keeping "every buff they have up at all times" is rarely realistic, certainly not when tanking (not that you are implying as much). To get high BPE, as seen in the SSs posted here and elsewhere, wardens will have to cycle through defensive strike, shield mastery, dance of war, and wall of steel (only one of which generates threat and only one of which does decent dps), which is time and power consuming and even when traited for extra DoW and DS duration this only puts them at 30s, with WoS at 20s and SM at 1min. So every minute the warden has to cycle through SM plus five other gambits. This doesn't leave room for building and maintaining aggro, applying HoTs, much less DPSing. The current form of the finesse stat significantly reduces the benefits of stacking BPE, through skills or gear, than it did in the previous form. Yet BPE is the warden's primary line of defense, especially when they will be taking upwards of 20% more damage than a heavy armor tank. This appears to be a major blow to wrds and grds but wrds in particular given the amount of gambits needed and the reliance on BPE for most of their defensive capabilities.