Tracking an Old Goat

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

I was reading this thread last night while trying to do the quest line. But the forums went down in the middle. There was scheduled maintenance on a Saturday night? Really? Why no notice? </sarcasm>

I have now finished the quests and the deed. Fortunately, I had a friend alert me to the issues, but then she had to log off.

What none of you seem to have said in the first 12-13 pages of this thread is the name of the quest you SHOULD NOT TURN IN until you have the others for the deed. That quest is Eyes in the Forest. This is the one that will dismiss Andreg.

Ah yes. Thanks for pointing that out since it will help a LOT of people!

[Beardfoot]

This lack of thought towards development and the player is something that has been creeping in a while now.

For those who experienced SOA/Level 50 know what I mean.

I prided myself once on doign all deeds in game. Virtues... all 12+. To introduce a deed as such as the tracking the Old Goat was something I would do for fun, for completeness. To now have missed such a deed because of my own "stupidity" of not checking the entire region and killing all mobs in said region and then being not being able to complete the deed is just .. well.

The whole atmosphere that was LOTRO was destroyed after SOA. The store - Im surprised there isnt a deed to "reset your Old Goat Deed and start again"... there seems to be a deed for everything else. Surprising again for a "convenience only".

I have levelled to 75 from 65 becuase I like Lord Of The Rings, and have read the books many time. LOTR is not the game it used to be.

[Elderban]

I did the quest line on an alt, made sure to put the deed up in my tracker while I was doing the quests.

[ararax2]

I did the quest line on an alt, made sure to put the deed up in my tracker while I was doing the quests.

Which you only knew cause you had prior information on the quest. A lot of people were doing this during Launch.

[Iznogoot]

Well I failed this deed twice on 2 of my characters. First one, I found all 6 quests, and I did not turn them in until I completed them all. When I proceeded to turn them in, I accidentally chose the one that end the quest line and lost 4 out of 7 quests for the deed. So I told myself: you're an idiot, and accepted the fact that I would not being able to complete this quest.

On my 2nd character. I was doing my quests, got 5 completed when the last quest in the line, or the notice, suddenly appear out of nowhere with only a continue button. I had no other option than to click continue cuz the panel was blocking my view and without the clear view I can not continue to quest. So this one is deffinitely bugged and man am I pissed.

There is a very easy solution to all these: you could just give the tag-along Andreg the ability to give quest but not the ability to complete quest. When a quest is completed, talk to the tag-along Andreg and he will point you towards Rohirrim camp to finish it. Plus he will have a blue ring over his head where you click on him and he will comment on the completed quest(s) and you can count how many have been completed.
Something like this:

_ (new quest) quest 1 (yellow ring)
_ (new quest) quest 5 (yellow ring)
_ (completed quest) quest 2 (blue ring): go to Rohirrim camp to finish
_ (completed quest) quest 6 (blue ring): go to Rohirrim camp to finish
_ (completed quest) Eyes in the Forest (last quest, blue ring with red warning): go to Rohirrim camp to finish
_ (on going quest) quest 4 (blue ring): 4/10
_ (quest not available) quest 5 (grey and no info)

I hope you guys will fix the bug (as stated above) so no more mishaps will occur, revamp the method of giving quests (as suggested above) so it is easier for us to track this deed/questline, make it more user-friendly. And most of all, although very little chance that will happen, I hope you will allow us who have failed this quest line to redo it one way or another. This will make all of us very happy. At least make it so the quests will be sharable and that we can receive quests and being able to turn it in with a stationable character.

[Hurin]

I just finished this quest (and deed) on my 2nd toon. On my first one, I too got the deed stuck in my log because, of course, there's no indication that the quests I hadn't completed were "behind me" and hidden on the NPC I was just about to dismiss forever.

To be more verbose in describing the fundamental problem. . .

The fundamental issue here is that the language used that we've been told should have warned us that the deed would remain uncompleted in no way actually communicates such a warning.

Having followed Andreg across the valley and completed whatever quests Andreg happened to give the the player, there is no reason for the player to think that he missed any quests. He is merely warned that he should turn in any quests he has underway before clicking "continue." Were the player to look at the deed, it would show unfinished quests, but there is no indication that those quests are not due to come up later from other quest-givers. In fact, the deed gives the impression that other rangers will be providing those quests later.

I'm generally pretty pro-Turbine and I try to give them the benefit of the doubt whenever possible (especially where technical or game design issues are concerned). But telling folks that they just needed to read more closely is entirely unsatisfactory. The warning for the final quest turn-in does not convey sufficient information to the player to avoid missing the quests and having an uncompleted deed stuck in their deed log for all eternity. Only the very lucky, the extremely a.retentive, or the clairvoyant could be expected to know (without the help of these forums or other prior knowledge) that they had missed some quests from Andreg and/or that the quests provided on the deed are not going to be offered in the future.

Heck, even on my second attempt on another toon, knowing everything I know now, I still had trouble getting this done due to its very quirky design. I can see where for some it would be very easy if they happen to get lucky. But in my case, I was pulled off course by a fight or two, and Andreg reached the end of the route without giving me the "traps" quest. So then, I had his gold ring above his head the entire time while I searched for the "traps area" that would trigger that quest (and, of course, I had to click on him every few paces to see if it was then available).

I appreciate that the deed was only ever added as an attempt to be helpful! So I wish some folks would keep their ire dialed down a bit here since Turbine will nearly always do the right thing if it's feasible to do so. But having said that, I know at least two people who are "deed completionists" and they'll be devastated if they aren't warned about this issue ahead of time and walk blindly into a situation like this where they are more than likely to have their deed log "marred" forever. Which also says something about this change in paradigm where deeds are now not completable at our leisure but instead we're given "one shot" at it, forever and ever.

Best Regards,

Hurin

[LadyDena]

I agree. Being given a single 'one shot' out of forever and ever is the ultimate of designed content that is unforgiving, if not down right petty. That coupled with an ambiguous quest text and an flippant dev response just make this beyond embarrassing for Turbine. And the sooner they fix the problem with this npc and the same one in Anniminas the sooner this embarrassing topic will go away.

[Greenasp]

I dunno if anyone pointed this out yet, but if you fail the Tracking an Old Goat deed, you actually can't complete 3 separate deeds. The Tracking deed (of course), the Gravenwood Deed, and the Explorer of Dunland Deed. That's pretty messed up. Because they put in one deed that basically requires prior knowledge of the quests and deeds, I have 3 deeds I'll never be able to complete and will forever haunt my deed log (unlike other deeds which disappear once you fail them).

Once I knew what to look for, I was able to complete it on my second character, but only because I read several threads telling me what to look for. That one Trap quest was extremely difficult for me to find.

[RJFerret]

Sad irony, I had read this thread initially (back when it was just a page or so), I read the quest information, and I had completed all the quests.

Now at 75, with little to nothing left to do or play, I look at deeds--apparently two quests are missing from this one for me!?

But, but...not only did I do them all, but I was careful to be I had none pending.

Oh well, at least I get the +1 to Irony.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

[PackOfIdiots]

This thread captures in a nutshell one of Turbine's greatest weaknesses as a company. It's the same weakness that kept radiance around for so long.

When customers overwhelmingly express that they don't like a feature, most companies attempt to address that by adjusting the feature, or removing it. Turbine however become overly defensive, digs in, and tries to tell customers why they SHOULD like the feature, and becomes insulting, condescending or hostile when that inevitably doesn't work.

Marketing aside, you don't get to tell customers what they're supposed to want. That's not how it works.

[whheydt]

I dunno if anyone pointed this out yet, but if you fail the Tracking an Old Goat deed, you actually can't complete 3 separate deeds. The Tracking deed (of course), the Gravenwood Deed, and the Explorer of Dunland Deed. That's pretty messed up. Because they put in one deed that basically requires prior knowledge of the quests and deeds, I have 3 deeds I'll never be able to complete and will forever haunt my deed log (unlike other deeds which disappear once you fail them).

Once I knew what to look for, I was able to complete it on my second character, but only because I read several threads telling me what to look for. That one Trap quest was extremely difficult for me to find.

No. You can complete quests in Gravenwood without completing Tracking, and (thus) the lack of the Gravenwood deed won't block completion of the Quests (note...NOT Exploration--that is completely separate) segment of the meta-deed.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Lohi]

When customers overwhelmingly express that they don't like a feature, most companies attempt to address that by adjusting the feature, or removing it. Turbine however become overly defensive,

Turbine does fix things. They just take longer than a lot of other companies. Some companies seem to oscillate back and forth at a whim by following customer complaints too closely; for instance every patch rebalancing characters because someone complains that someone else is overpowered. I'd rather them spend extra time testing things thoroughly (in this case I think they may have rushed things, so rushing a second time for a fix may be the wrong approach).

[Greenasp]

No. You can complete quests in Gravenwood without completing Tracking, and (thus) the lack of the Gravenwood deed won't block completion of the Quests (note...NOT Exploration--that is completely separate) segment of the meta-deed.

Maybe you can. I cannot. I have 3 deeds open now. No way to complete them. I've done all other quests.

They lowered the quest requirement for Gravenwood by 3 (from 27 to 24) with the latest patch, but I'm 1 short still. So that leaves Tracking (deed) open. Quests in Gravenwood (a deed) open. And Quests of Dunland (NOT an explorer deed. A QUEST deed.) Prior to the update, you needed all 7 quests from Tracking to complete the deed. Now you only need 4 if you get all the other quests in the region.

If you have actually facts to back up what you say, I'd appreciate hearing them. I was not referring to any explorer deeds. Only the quest deeds.

[lostinjapan2]

I completed this on my Minstrel, but when taking my first character through...I missed a couple of the quests not realizing it. This series is completely fubar. There is no reason to restrict a character from returning to a zone to complete quests or deeds.

[Lurkerinthemist]

Maybe you can. I cannot. I have 3 deeds open now. No way to complete them. I've done all other quests.

They lowered the quest requirement for Gravenwood by 3 (from 27 to 24) with the latest patch, but I'm 1 short still. So that leaves Tracking (deed) open. Quests in Gravenwood (a deed) open. And Quests of Dunland (NOT an explorer deed. A QUEST deed.) Prior to the update, you needed all 7 quests from Tracking to complete the deed. Now you only need 4 if you get all the other quests in the region.

If you have actually facts to back up what you say, I'd appreciate hearing them. I was not referring to any explorer deeds. Only the quest deeds.

You are short 1 in the Gravenwood because you haven't done any of the Culling Pit yet (I assume you haven't). That's 4 quests there, the patch removed 3 from the requirement, which leaves you still needing to do 1.

I am at 4/7 on the Tracking the Goat quest line, but I have completed the Quests of Dunland deed, and only have slayer deeds left to complete the Deeds of Dunland deed.

I believe there was a quote from Berephon in this thread that the goat quests specifically did not count towards the quest deed.

This doesn't make me any happier about the fact that I'm 4/7 with no way to complete these quests.

[Boggo2300]

You are short 1 in the Gravenwood because you haven't done any of the Culling Pit yet (I assume you haven't). That's 4 quests there, the patch removed 3 from the requirement, which leaves you still needing to do 1.

I am at 4/7 on the Tracking the Goat quest line, but I have completed the Quests of Dunland deed, and only have slayer deeds left to complete the Deeds of Dunland deed.

I believe there was a quote from Berephon in this thread that the goat quests specifically did not count towards the quest deed.

This doesn't make me any happier about the fact that I'm 4/7 with no way to complete these quests.

Culling pit is in Starkmoor, and is counting (incorrectly) against that deed, not the Gravenwood deed

[Lurkerinthemist]

Oh shoot, you're right, my bad.

Ok, well, I know that it is possible to complete Quests of Dunland without completing the goat tracking deed. So I don't know which quest he's missing in Gravenwood.
deed.jpg

[whheydt]

Maybe you can. I cannot. I have 3 deeds open now. No way to complete them. I've done all other quests.

They lowered the quest requirement for Gravenwood by 3 (from 27 to 24) with the latest patch, but I'm 1 short still. So that leaves Tracking (deed) open. Quests in Gravenwood (a deed) open. And Quests of Dunland (NOT an explorer deed. A QUEST deed.) Prior to the update, you needed all 7 quests from Tracking to complete the deed. Now you only need 4 if you get all the other quests in the region.

If you have actually facts to back up what you say, I'd appreciate hearing them. I was not referring to any explorer deeds. Only the quest deeds.

From post #433 in this thread, posted by Greenasp (bold added):

I dunno if anyone pointed this out yet, but if you fail the Tracking an Old Goat deed, you actually can't complete 3 separate deeds. The Tracking deed (of course), the Gravenwood Deed, and the Explorer of Dunland Deed. That's pretty messed up. Because they put in one deed that basically requires prior knowledge of the quests and deeds, I have 3 deeds I'll never be able to complete and will forever haunt my deed log (unlike other deeds which disappear once you fail them).

One of my characters completed 5 of 7 quests in Tracking an Old Goat and 24 of 24 in Quests in Gravenwood. He has not completed the Quests in Dunland meta-deed because he's one short in Starkmoor (never did any of the Culling Pit quests) and still has quests yet to do in Nan Curunir. He's not being held back by the Goat.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[toddratson]

The deed is specifically there to list the quests needed to complete it. It was added because people in Beta were complaining about not knowing whether they found all the discoverables (which are completely optional and do not affect the division quest deed) or not. I am beginning to regret adding it.

There are only three discoverables, and the quest clearly indicates you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest. This is no different than Annuminas. It also clearly indicates what route to follow (basically bee-line to the quest guide, which crosses the discoverable hotspots for all quests).

I cannot emphasize more to READ THE QUESTS. If you don't, then you miss what the game is all about and miss any guidance and instruction. That's not going to change.

I have heard some arrogant comments from Dev's before, but this takes the cake. I read all my quests the first time and I too like to complete all my deeds. Your code is broken and unclear and you blame us for not reading? Classy, real classy. Thanks Turbine for taking my money and telling me I'm stupid.

[Ruschi]

It also clearly indicates what route to follow (basically bee-line to the quest guide, which crosses the discoverable hotspots for all quests).

While working on other quest objectives, it's very possible to make a twisty route through the area which avoids the discoverables.

Glad to hear that it's possible to complete Quests of Dunland without tying up this line.

[longlandm]

So a bee-line huh? Not normal behaviour there at all. Maybe people are tracking nodes and not walking in a straight line?

Delete the deed. If people miss it, they miss it, but leaving this reminder there forever is definitely a sore spot.

By the logic provided, people shouldn't need a deed anyways; they should be reading the quests. Make it a hidden deed, and only when you finish it does it appear in your log).

[Mithgalad]

The problem I have with the deed is that it gives Honour +1 and 5 TP. No other missable deed has ever had that. Some old Social deeds (eg. collect Ring-lore) were only doable then within the context of the event but even they only had a title reward. So, we can pretty much ignore one time event related deeds and say that Tracking the Old Goat is an example of poor design and should be removed or made completable afterwards. I would be perfectly fine if I missed just the quests but not when there's virtue, title and TP rewards.

Didn't Turbine learn anything from Mirkwood Landing deeds?

[Jadzi]

The problem I have with the deed is that it gives Honour +1 and 5 TP. No other missable deed has ever had that. Some old Social deeds (eg. collect Ring-lore) were only doable then within the context of the event but even they only had a title reward. So, we can pretty much ignore one time event related deeds and say that Tracking the Old Goat is an example of poor design and should be removed or made completable afterwards. I would be perfectly fine if I missed just the quests but not when there's virtue, title and TP rewards.

Didn't Turbine learn anything from Mirkwood Landing deeds?

A deed having an attractive reward is no more 'poor design' than the store having attractive goods. It's there, yes, but it isn't something you have to have, and it isn't going to derail your game to miss it. You can still reach the virtue caps without it. It isn't barring any other facet of gameplay. It's freely available. Everyone has a chance to get it, quite easily in fact. If something went awry and you didn't get it, that's unfortunate. Indeed, it'd be nicer if the missed quests could be acquired again in some fashion. But why should a reward be outright removed just because it's something one wants and can't have?

[Tarmas_Eldar]

But why should a reward be outright removed just because it's something one wants and can't have?

Congratulations. You couldn't have missed the point of the thread by any more if you'd sat down and made a conscious effort to do so.

I'll recap for you. No-one objects to the existence of the chain or the deed or the virtue reward. The problem is that it is extremely easy to miss the fact that there is a deed at all, extremely easy to miss the three discoverable quests and extremely easy to end the chain, forever losing the ability to complete the deed, without ever knowing you're going to miss out.

The wording of the final quest warning is not clear enough. Reading all the quest texts as recommended by the dev in his response does not give all the information you need to understand how it works. I'll bet only a small proportion of players have ever seen the Annuminas example he quotes and even that didn't award a deed.

I accept that the deed was put in by the dev in good faith and the design of the chain is innovative. However, when released into the real player world it didn't work as intended. This isn't a big deal, I recall entire dev diaries about how different some things are when played on live servers vs testing and design intent.

The solutions are simple: the deed should be hidden until completed, and/or there should be a static Andreg to hand out uncompleted quests, and/or the quest texts should be re-written.

[Jadzi]

Congratulations. You couldn't have missed the point of the thread by any more if you'd sat down and made a conscious effort to do so.

I didn't miss the point, I just didn't feel a need to address it. After 30 pages, I think the topic has been well-traversed.

Rather, if you'll notice, my comment was solely in reply to the post I quoted. Specifically, to the idea that it was poor design to offer a tick of Honour and a nickel of TP on a deed that can be failed, simply because it made the deed too desirable to ignore.