Update 9: Against the Shadow and the Rohan Instance cluster

[asearchforreason]

Maybe I missed it in the thread but has there been any word on the release date of the first group of instances?

[Southpa]

Eh, Orthanc even lacked the "trinity". DPS was major boss and is what I believe kept kins from being able to do it. If you can't DPS like a mofo, Lightning challenge was about all you could probably muster. Or maybe Acid as intended.

Of course everyone wants the game to cater to their preferences. Turbine is fortunately in no position to completely write-off any of their traditional niches, though. We can bellyache about the upcoming raid format (I have myself), but in the end we're still here waiting for it with some degree of anticipation .

None of us have to be here.

[Lestache]

Eh, Orthanc even lacked the "trinity". DPS was major boss and is what I believe kept kins from being able to do it. If you can't DPS like a mofo, Lightning challenge was about all you could probably muster. Or maybe Acid as intended.

Of course everyone wants the game to cater to their preferences. Turbine is fortunately in no position to completely write-off any of their traditional niches, though. We can bellyache about the upcoming raid format (I have myself), but in the end we're still here waiting for it with some degree of anticipation .

None of us have to be here.

True enough. I'm somewhat confused by the "I just wish people who like different things than me would go away" attitude. (Actually, I'm not really confused - real life examples abound of people who can't handle those who are different in some way, or have a different viewpoint, or like something that they don't. I shouldn't be surprised that it spills over into MMOs. It's just funny to see it expressed so blatantly.)

As for Orthanc, it's not like you could pull off any of the bosses in Orthanc without a tank or without a healer. Just because you needed high DPS doesn't mean that the other roles weren't necessary.

I like fights that require a lot of DPS - DPSers should be required to be at the top of their game just like the tanks and healers are. I think that the Shadow boss was very well done - needed top-tier DPS but also needed good positioning, a good tank or two, strong healing, and CCers at the top of their game. It had something for everybody.

[Southpa]

As for Orthanc, it's not like you could pull off any of the bosses in Orthanc without a tank or without a healer. Just because you needed high DPS doesn't mean that the other roles weren't necessary.

No, I know. I'm just saying I think you couldn't do a lot of Orthanc challenges without exceptionally high DPS and that's something we hadn't really encountered to such a degree before IMO. The trinity was still there, (actually I think there's a quaternary because CC could be almost as important as tanking if implemented as such) - but DPS was what people needed to get over the hump - Acid zerg, definitely F/F and Saruman was instantly a whole bunch easier if you could get the first 4 mobs down ASAP.

Even a fight like Shadow would have been magnitudes easier without the 5-minute timer - and I feel the timer tips that fight more into the DPS > all else category. Of course the strat needs to be there, but hopefully you know what I'm saying.

Also with the trash - I definitely felt that mega deeps could push you through a lot of it - and was pretty much required in Lightning, Acid and Shadow wings. Healing and tanking wouldn't save you nor allow you to carry on indefinitely while your lackluster deeps whittled things down.

So while I think the trinity was still there, DPS was definitely king like never before. I hope they can step away from that in at least one of the upcoming raids. I play primarily DPS classes, but the whole thing just becomes really transparent and stale IMO. The need for deeps pretty much peaked with the BG gauntlet IMO because it all felt so frantic and exciting. Conversely, DPS in Orthanc mostly just felt like an exercise.

[Lestache]

No, I know. I'm just saying I think you couldn't do a lot of Orthanc challenges without exceptionally high DPS and that's something we hadn't really encountered to such a degree before IMO. The trinity was still there, (actually I think there's a quaternary because CC could be almost as important as tanking if implemented as such) - but DPS was what people needed to get over the hump - Acid zerg, definitely F/F and Saruman was instantly a whole bunch easier if you could get the first 4 mobs down ASAP.

Even a fight like Shadow would have been magnitudes easier without the 5-minute timer - and I feel the timer tips that fight more into the DPS > all else category. Of course the strat needs to be there, but hopefully you know what I'm saying.

Also with the trash - I definitely felt that mega deeps could push you through a lot of it - and was pretty much required in Lightning, Acid and Shadow wings. Healing and tanking wouldn't save you nor allow you to carry on indefinitely while your lackluster deeps whittled things down.

So while I think the trinity was still there, DPS was definitely king like never before. I hope they can step away from that in at least one of the upcoming raids. I play primarily DPS classes, but the whole thing just becomes really transparent and stale IMO. The need for deeps pretty much peaked with the BG gauntlet IMO because it all felt so frantic and exciting. Conversely, DPS in Orthanc mostly just felt like an exercise.

I understand what you're saying, and I should've been clearer in stating that I didn't really think that you meant that tanking and healing were extraneous.

I guess my point is that I like that everyone has to be at the top of their game, including the DPS. While the timers may feel somewhat artificial, I don't think that I'd see a fight as very challenging if it could be beaten with meager DPS as long as you had enough healers to keep everyone alive indefinitely.

Conversely, I don't think that a lot of us would find a fight challenging if we were able to just completely zerg through it by killing everything so quickly that stuff like aggro control and healing weren't really needed (like, say, DN trash).

That's why Orthanc Shadow Challenge and Gortheron Challenge in OD are a couple of my favorite fights - there's something for everyone to do, and they have to do it very well.

When we've had fights before that didn't require top-notch DPS, they'd eventually be seriously undermanned. To me, while that's a nice accomplishment for the people that do it, it also just highlights that those fights require little more than one good tank, one good healer, and some people who (to borrow a derogatory phrase that some non-raiders lob at raiders occasionally) know how to follow the dance steps. The only challenge in something like that is maintaining focus while you repeat the same pattern for 30-60 minutes or so.

So yes - if we get fights that are little more than straight DPS races (like the Turtle), I can understand why they seem like uninteresting one trick ponies. But, if we get fights that are DPS races but also have other important elements, then I think that those are DPS races done right.

[joeblow8579]

I'm glad that you enjoy Mounted Combat, but it's just not in a place yet that it'd even be possible to make challenging content based around it. All nine classes are basically DPS classes, so MC is basically just a zerg of people doing a bunch of damage and not worrying about anything else. Occasionally the person with aggro needs to run away for a few seconds, but as soon as the big bad mob gets dismounted it's little more than smacking one of our five attacks again until the thing dies (or occasionally just finishing it off with ranged auto-attacks whilst alt-tabbed and reading/doing something else).

That is how mounted combat works right now. With some creativity, it would be relatively easy to design some really challenging, really fun mounted combat fights. Think about having to protect something on the move, or to protect several things while destroying something else.

Or protecting two different, widely separated things. A boss that can't be dismounted and has the ability to dismount players combined with some other interesting mechanics. A boss that you must kill before he leaves an area. A fight where dismounted players must simultaneously do something while mounted people do something else. Example: players must dismount to climb to the top of a massive Easterling siege engine to kill/retrieve something while other players prevent enemies from following them. The enemies could be powerful enough that dismounted players stand little chance against them inside the siege engine.

There is literally a limitless number of different things you can do, even stipulating that basically everyone is DPS-ing on their horse. The sky is the limit here. It's not just "dismount, kill." That's the &&&&&& way they designed Bugud, but it doesn't have to be like that.

It's intellectually lazy to require very narrowly-defined archtypes complete very narrowly-defined tasks to complete some challenge. That penalizes players from thinking creatively, and it is sadly the way 95% of MMO's work.

It also means that once you figure out how to do something, you can do it like that every. single. time. Booooring.

[Aineas.]

tbh, mounted instances?? seriously? they first need to fix the current state of mounted combat. As a guardian there's no point in even bothering atm, it's pretty bad since you can't come close to a mob due to all lm/mns/rk/hnts just riding laps and shooting at ranged. At the moment I'm still looking for the nearest butcher to bring my warsteed too... ><

You could do some nice things, but in the current state it's just a pain controlling them.

I had hoped for more instances and tbh, kinda hoped for OD scaling since we've farmed BG so many times already. While OD was only here for like 4 months or so before the next area was opened. But would be nice to run it again, yet they have to be careful though, since a lot have done those instances already, so scaling them is fun, but how long can it entertain you?

[duamarth]

This x-pac and instance cluster(ahem) remains the reason why I returned and then unsubbed from LOTRO. The only content we get is a raised level cap with much of the same old easy, boring questing, now with the added bore of mounted combat that offers no real challenge or really a new play style, just more of the pain of having to chase stuff (for melee). End-game players, PVMPers, continually get shafted. E.g., the complete bug-fest fail that was Dragioch, and now 3 single boss raids on some far away release. Granted, there have been some good instances of that type, like the Watcher. The problem is, they were good back when we had a large amount of end game content to pick from, not when that's just about all we had. Anyone remember when CD/etc, all the Moria instances, all the Mirkwood instances, as well as OD were run regularly? There are so few end-game players left now, though, that this shouldn't matter. Why even release instance clusters anymore? I imagine the remaining, largely casual playerbase would prefer more storyline quests and solo instances.

[Brya]

Start scaling the old instances before more players leave this game.

They already are. We're getting the entire BG cluster scaled in this update.

I understand trying to tie in some things with The Hobbit part 1 film release, but why bother calling it Riders Of Rohan instances, when it's not in or about Rohan?

Its the "Instance cluster" included with the "Riders of Rohan" expansion. It was never advertised or promised to be "Instances in Rohan itself". Theres nothing geographical or historical of note to make a viable cluster out of in Rohan, and indeed all the major stuff ripe for instance content occurs in Western Rohan and later in the timeline. We'll be getting that when we get Western Rohan (eg, Helms Deep, Ents Taking Isengard)

[Lircel]

Hello, is posible copy my Laurelin character to Bullroarer beta?. i use that http://my.lotro.com/charactercopy but the grids are empty, no character to select to transfer. Anyone can help?

[Chris91]

Only US characters as far as I know

[Lircel]

A problem with the Warden.

Hello mates, i am seeing since the Rise of Isengard Beta the last year that the wardens animations are diferent in bullroarer and when i play him in Laurelin.

When you use Quick Thrust, or Shield Bash, or Taunt, you can see how in each 'hit skill' the javelin is throwing to the mob, but when you did that in normal server (Laurelin) the animations are not equal even you loose dps for that.

For example you hit Quick Thrust and you see the javeling is throwing to the mob but faster you push shield bash and the warden is in normal position but "you can see how a javeling go out from your chest to the mob!", i mean you dont see the animation throwing that second javelin...

Please, in each beta test, i like very much this system on the warden´s attack and auto attacks. Put that system in the normal server when update comes!!

[Solien]

I'd prefer no trash at all to BG-style trash, although the Gauntlet was fun as a Champ. I just don't want to run into TimeSink Lights again.

Yeah. This. We ran BG the other night because we have few members who'd never run it and wanted to see it in its original form. Even 20 levels higher, the Lights were still annoying, lol.

[Solien]

Sapience: I'd like to hear from Turbine why the new instance clusters do not involve Rohan or mounted combat.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G0k3kHtyoqc

[Zap.Smith-Brannigan]

Another question for the beta testers:

Is there any sign of another use for the Tokens of Hytbold you need to rebuild the town? I really dont want to keep running the Hytbold dailies any longer. My Hytbold is done tomorrow for my main character and i will only play dailies for the armoury-set for my alts. Once this is done, i will stop playing them for a while. But: When they patch a vendor in, where you can change the Hytbold-Tokens for something useful, then i will still play the dailies to collect the tokens.
Any news here?

[LagunaD]

That is how mounted combat works right now. With some creativity, it would be relatively easy to design some really challenging, really fun mounted combat fights. Think about having to protect something on the move, or to protect several things while destroying something else.

First, I'd like to think about being able to ride in a straight line, at a steady speed, without the horse teleporting back and forth across the landscape.

There isn't a shred of evidence they will ever even fix *that*, given that Mounted Combat has already served its purpose (getting people to pre-order RoR before they found out how buggy it was).

They laid off a bunch of devs, the expansion was late and buggy, the instance cluster is late and lame, they are likely behind on future content upgrades too, major bugs in class mechanics go months without even being acknowledged, much less fixed, the community website has been in "beta" for three years and still barely works, and you think they are going to magically make mounted combat actually work anytime soon?

Is there any sign of another use for the Tokens of Hytbold you need to rebuild the town? I really dont want to keep running the Hytbold dailies any longer. My Hytbold is done tomorrow for my main character and i will only play dailies for the armoury-set for my alts. Once this is done, i will stop playing them for a while. But: When they patch a vendor in, where you can change the Hytbold-Tokens for something useful, then i will still play the dailies to collect the tokens.
Any news here?

You can already (on the live servers) convert Hytbold Tokens into Eastemnet Silver Tokens on a 1:1 basis, and use those to buy LI scrolls, consumables, ring upgrades, etc.

[Rebnosity]

Here's my 2 cents, though:

We have GOT to get scaling on old instances! There is so much content that just sits on the shelf because it's locked at an old level cap. If they would just scale everything then we would have endgame content coming out of our ears. /sigh

^ This. While scaling old instances is not a substitute for new content (and I would like to stress this point), it would certainly help keep a lot of us occupied and busy. Personally, I am quite fond of several of the SoA instances, and in some cases never got a chance to run them on level. It would be awesome to run through them again with level appropriate challenges and rewards! It is sad to see instances repeatedly becoming obsolete after each level cap increase.

Also, since the expansion itself was delayed, I am not really surprised that the bigger parts of the instance cluster were delayed as well. Is it disappointing? Yeah, but it was expected.

On the subject of 3-mans, I honestly enjoy them very much, since I am in a small kinship and normally play with a very small group of people. However, only having three slots really decreases the flexibility of the group, and more often than not you get stuck with the standard healer, tank, DPS deal. It is possible to get around this, of course, but you have to find people willing to take that challenge, and sometimes that can be difficult. Personally I like the challenge, but I know not everybody feels that way.

With full fellowship instances, it is much easier to get the needed balance. While I do like three man instances, I confess I am sad to see diminishing focus on full fellowship content. One of the things I loved so much about Mines of Moria (my favorite expansion) was that it shipped with six full fellowship instances (seven if you count Forgotten Treasury), as well as the two Eregion three mans. The quest and leveling content was solid and there was plenty to do when you hit level cap. We do not see that anymore with expansions, it seems. I liked that MoM had a balance between small instances and bigger group instances.

TL;DR version: 3-mans are fun, but so are full fellowship instances. Ideally, it would be nice to see a balance of the two.

[TKaz84]

^ This. While scaling old instances is not a substitute for new content (and I would like to stress this point), it would certainly help keep a lot of us occupied and busy. Personally, I am quite fond of several of the SoA instances, and in some cases never got a chance to run them on level. It would be awesome to run through them again with level appropriate challenges and rewards! It is sad to see instances repeatedly becoming obsolete after each level cap increase.

This 100%, and I would even go as far to say that for some people it IS a substitute for new content (I include myself in this category) since it is allowing them access to content that would otherwise be trivial and not worth experiencing. How many people starting the game today would ever do Carn Dum, Urugarth or Barad Gularan?

[Kril]

This 100%, and I would even go as far to say that for some people it IS a substitute for new content (I include myself in this category) since it is allowing them access to content that would otherwise be trivial and not worth experiencing. How many people starting the game today would ever do Carn Dum, Urugarth or Barad Gularan?

Although I am running low on deeds to complete in these 3 instances across all my toons, there is NO REASON at ALL for people NOT to hit Carn Dum & Uru. BG, well, that's another story... I'm always encouraging people looking for their class items to stay away from the skirm vendors and go to the instance, if for nothing else then the deeds.

CD & Uru are soloable at 85, and contain MANY, MANY deeds. I would however love to see them scaled regardless, and more Orcs/Uruks added to CD for the deed.

[CaerArianrhod]

I'm not really sure where all the hate came from, between playstyles

*lol* you wrote all that rant (your word!) and you ask that "question". Really funny.

But what is no fun, that in some way you right. I do not like to pug in raids too, because many players can't play their class. That's the simple truth. But if we look at the "why": this game became so solo friendly, that one can hit 85 without any grouping. In fact, this game is one of the most grouping hostile MMO i ever played. You can not really do questing with your friends becaus you have so many solo instances.

Grouping content (ex. raiding) is no way rewarding. Look at the history of Fornost, i's been the only one* 6 man, befor level 50. No one wont really play that, because there was not really rewarded and it was "to long". What have turbine done? Splited it up - that player can play shorter etc. etc. - and then: making a gatekeeper machanic (you have to do part 1, then part 2, then part 3 etc.) and the reward is not even worth to speak about. Wahoooo! What a great change. Fornost is now just for players who wants an empty book of deeds.
Same for Helegrod, the one and only 24 man raid. Splitting up, but you have to do part A, and part B ... to go to Thorog. An awful ruined instance. The 3-man instances ... an another big Wahoooo! You can't do (all of) them in any combination of classes. (turbine said, is was designed for exactly that). Yes, yes i know ... skirmishes. Let me say: Wahoooo! After two years of skirmishing around i hate them. Really really hate them.

ad *) Yes the Barrow-downs i know, once a wonderful inctance and now many little pieces of nothing.

However, it is no need for anybody to group in this game. I can understand that players wo seldom or never grouped, can not play their classes in groups. That must to be learned too. I had to relize this, as i recognized there are many players at 75 (now at 85) who never been in the Rift of Nurz Ghashu and never done any groups. But this players need a chance too, to learn how to play in groups/raids. For me it is only one requirement for this players in my raid: being interested in the played class(es) and willing to learn group play. If they do: everything is ok. If they don't: "see you later alligator".

Regads
CA

[Vaineater]

yayyyy

[t-town-colt]

This 100%, and I would even go as far to say that for some people it IS a substitute for new content (I include myself in this category) since it is allowing them access to content that would otherwise be trivial and not worth experiencing. How many people starting the game today would ever do Carn Dum, Urugarth or Barad Gularan?

I understand that some players enjoy scaling old instances. I personally don't like going back to do old content. I have been there and done that. I have no problem with them scaling old content, unless it is delays or comes as a replacement for new content. This new ic is very disappointing to me so when i heard they were scaling bg i already had a bad taste in my mouth. I dont care for three mans, but I can live with them. I also have hope for the raids but with one boss raids they can easily be fail. What really bugs me is that we only get one six man, and when they come out saying they are scaling bg, to me it just seems like a coverup for not giving more new content. I realize that it probably is not that way, and that with new expansions every year turbine may not have time to release as much new group content as i would prefer. Which is why I would prefer a smaller level jump, and/or more time in between expansions as long as more group content came into the picture. Naturally, though my views come from my wants, and I realize others want different things from the game.

This is all just an initial reaction, and we wont know for sure how good everything is until we see it in action.

[deeman25845601]

I would have been happier to have one 6-man instance than I am with three 3-mans. I can't say I'm surprised about this, though. I'm sure if the instance cluster stayed outside of the RoR package, we would have a raid, a 6-man and a few 3-mans. Since Turbine never said what the instance cluster would be, they can easily say, okay, we will add the cluster onto the expansion. Then, they can release the real cluster later on and charge for it.

[Northstar6]

Pls dont scale or revamp anything in Angmar - Rift, uru, BG and Carn Dum should stay original as it was in 2007/08. Those are only instances that stayed untouched...


Keep the spirit of the old times!

[Darmokk]

Pls dont scale or revamp anything in Angmar - Rift, uru, BG and Carn Dum should stay original as it was in 2007/08. Those are only instances that stayed untouched...


Keep the spirit of the old times!

Well. I want to play the Rift (on Landroval) but I can't get a group because nobody needs the level 50 loot.

If the thing would scale I would have a much better chance to some day play it.