The Death of group play? (Open tapping/contribution discussion)

[tharkun3]

The OP is exactly correct.....

.....I get it that there are people who defend the open tapping, mostly using a 'quit crying it's not that bad' argument. However, nobody was complaining about how groups shared experience and loot before, and nobody has made a reasonable argument as to why this change to groups loot/xp/kill counts is better than it was before.

Sure, like most people I play solo *most* of the time, but I used to have have fun grouping (especially my kids) for a variety of reasons - tough fights that required coordination, speeding up deeds, doing quests to help the younger less skilled people in my household level up. Now all of these are negatively affected. The kids have stopped playing, and I would cancel my subscription, except it is a lifetime subscription.


Please Turbine, put the rules back the way they were for groups. This was a terrible idea.

This and a thousand times this. Well said. Why this was put in the game I don't know.

"If it aint broke don't fix it!"

and there was nothing broke about the tapping rules before.

I don't really see the need for open tapping. Especially on the run of the mill mobs. Maybe on the warbands and other rare one of kind named sigs and elites.

But if turbine wants to let people drive by and cast some week &&&& aoe dps on a group of mobs I'm figthing with my group and get full credit I can shrug it off as long as all in my group get credit as well. As far as I'm concerned someone in my group that does nothing more then laugh at my jokes while we are playing is doing more to help me kill mobs then some jerk drive by tagging.

Again, I can put up with the jerk if I have too, as long as the guy in my group is getting credit.

[Display]

And yet I think you've posted that the "freeloading" so-called issue does not matter to you.

My whole point about disliking the freeloading is this, I thought I made it perfectly clear before.

I don't care about the fact that someone can run up and "help" me fight something, especially named enemies and warbands. My problem with it is that my fellowship contributing regardless of the way won't get credit for some kills even if they used a skill that helped in the fight, or they were just away from their keyboard for a moment while someone else can just ride past and hit the enemy once then ride away without staying there to fight gets full credit and full loot. If Turbine wants to consider that more of a contribution to my fellowship than my own member is doing, then why even have classes with skills that are useless in their minds of the definition of "contributing".

Me, and the others who are making this same exact point aren't asking for the whole game to be redesigned for handicap accessability ramps for our wheelchairs. We aren't asking that Turbine give us special treatment. Open tagging is special treatment to both sides to an extent, because those that are out grinding deeds and item experience now get full benefit even if someone attacks it. But every other area of the game before Rohan is still the same. Most people in the game would mind so much if it was implemented throughout the game AS LONG AS the fellowship is treated the same that it has been all the way up through Rise of Isengard / The Great River. We just want the fellowship to be treated as it always has been. Fellowships were never given a full equal amount of the loot before. But those that want that can stay solo and run around together and just spend time solo instead of in the fellowship now. Whatever the reason behind this, whether it's to hinder gold farmers (didn't know they we able to sustain a market in this game, with gold being easy to aquire doing slayer deeds). But gold farmers now have it easier because they can sit in a congested area and just tab-tilde their way to profit.

Giving fellowships quest and deed credit has no effect on the economy, and this is all that most of us in the thread way. We don't want full and equal share of the loot. Loot and experience are a small part of the game compared to the friendship that fellowships create. And people may call landscape enemies trivial for a fellowship to fight, but that's the way some people have always played the game. Husbands and wives, parents and children, college buddies, military buddies and even famous people all fellowship together to enjoy a game that's made because of a set of books and movies that a fellowship was an integral part of the books and movies.

Turbine making it so we get our quest and deed credit won't affect open tagging or no solo players game time whatsoever, so why argue against it? You say you duo, then you also have to tag everything at least once or kill more than need be for the quest. And if you say thats a good thing because it's counting for the deed, maybe the others aren't there to do the deeds at the moment and they just want to quest through the area and continue on to the next so they can gear up for the instances and raids that will be coming not too far down the road. This wouldn't change your ability to openly tag an enemy, and most people aren't asking for it to. So why should you care if they change one issue for fellowships that a big portion of the community faces? Answer that honestly without being a forum troll, then your argument might hold some weight. But arguing against it just for the sake of argument is downright rude and obnoxious.

[maxjenius]

Sapience's post in the official forum makes this thread moot, IMO.

[tharkun3]

*repost from petition thread*

A heal hits a champ A with 5 mobs:

1: If champ A has Tapped all the targets prior to the heal: A heal will tap all mobs

2: If champ A has Tapped some of the mobs prior to the heal: A heal will tap some of the mobs

3: If champ A has Tapped 1 of the mobs prior to the heal: A heal will tap 1 of the mobs

If the heal has no HoT ticks. that is how the tapping will remain, until the healer heals again or Attacks or Mobs die.

If there are HoT ticks, any new Champ A tap prior to a HoT tick will then add the healer to the contribution list.

Heals only tap, Tapped targets at the time of the heal. Mobs can die between taps without credit where credit is due.

You are wrong here. The key missing ingredient in all your scenarios is the champ has to have agro and have tapped it with a dps skill when the heal lands, and of course the mob needs to still be alive when the heal lands. LOTS AND LOTS of mobs are very easily one shoted by champs and hunters making it impossible for anyone else to get credit.

This is compounded by drive bys pitching in and killing a mob that has purposely been left alive - ie less then full dps skill used on it (Them) so other members will get a chance to tag it or heal the person with agro - but then that helpfull 'drive by tagger' killed it.

If a guard has agro and a champ aoe's the mobs down without pulling agro you can heal the champ all day long and get nothing for it.

it is dang near impossible for healing to get credit on some kills. Went into a cave with two hunters and me on cappy and even with both hunters cooporating and working to help me get credit I was still missing a lot of kills. The way we worked it is Hunter A would pull with rain of arrows and hope he didn't one shot half the bats and rats, because if he did, I and the other hunter were screwed. I would then heal hunter 'A' whereupon hunter 'B' would rain of thorns to get credit. Still hunter "A" finished all the kill tasks long before me and hunter 'B' who by being a nice guy missed out on a lot of kills as well.

We are thinking what we need to do is get the hunters some &&&&&& none LI's so they do less damage. We started off with hunter A swift shot the big guys followed by rain of arrows but he was killing too many of them before I could get my heal off or the other hunter get his shot. Half way though he was click shooting - no skill used - then low cut when they all got in range and I'd heal and other hunter would low cut. Woot. This is a great new idea.

Yeah right. What is great about 2 hunters going into a cave and having their main concern and thrust of their activities be to try and make sure every gets credit to the point they are click pulling and then melee aoe skill. This is Brilliant!!

[tharkun3]

As with any new system we closely monitor feedback for unexpected issues, ideas on how things can be improved and reports of unusual behaviours within the system. The open tapping concept was supposed to encourage plaeyrs to assist each other and make grouping more appealing, not less. Clearly something didn't turn out quite right in how this mechanic is working within feloowships.

Support classes being left out of the XP and loot pools was not the intention. We're working to address this issue and currently expect to resolve the fellowship issues by Update 8.1. This should result in all players in a fellowship receiving credit once again.

This sounds like a win win. I and other people who did not, do not, like the way people in groups failed to get credit will have this issued addressed.

It also sounds like open tapping will remain for the folks that like it.

The only people left out in the cold are the ones like kaf who do not want other people tapping their mobs.

Me, like I said, I'm not crazy about it. But as long as people in my group get credit I will not complain.

don't think we should let up on the pressure. But at least it sounds like they 'turbine' intend to fix this.

[Pasoth]

*repost from petition thread*

A heal hits a champ A with 5 mobs:

1: If champ A has Tapped all the targets prior to the heal: A heal will tap all mobs

2: If champ A has Tapped some of the mobs prior to the heal: A heal will tap some of the mobs

3: If champ A has Tapped 1 of the mobs prior to the heal: A heal will tap 1 of the mobs

If the heal has no HoT ticks. that is how the tapping will remain, until the healer heals again or Attacks or Mobs die.

If there are HoT ticks, any new Champ A tap prior to a HoT tick will then add the healer to the contribution list.

Heals only tap, Tapped targets at the time of the heal. Mobs can die between taps without credit where credit is due.

You are wrong here. The key missing ingredient in all your scenarios is the champ has to have agro and have tapped it with a dps skill when the heal lands, and of course the mob needs to still be alive when the heal lands.

That was my exact point. read it again. So infact the above scenarios are indeed correct.

Update 8.1! here we come.

[maxjenius]

don't think we should let up on the pressure. But at least it sounds like they 'turbine' intend to fix this.

Not let up on the pressure? They said they're gonna fix it. What more is there to pressure them to do?

[Vlad_the_Bud-inhaler]

again, what makes my point so hard to understand? Are you guys always only questing solo? The point of a fellowship is to help each other... if I kill a mob, my fellow still gets credit for it, because I'm doing it for the fellowship and not for myself! That's how group play always worked and should work!

I thing u should get rewarded by% of how much u cointribute be it dps healing buffin u do more u get more so much dead weight players makes me sick.

[Rippentuck]

Now that they have made it known that they're going to fix this, I assume this means that those few people who argued that support classes and/or their skills should be excluded from xp/loot, can now see how ridiculous the idea was, and will now cease and desist, and the discussion is closed?

Hallelujah and amen.


Rip

[Vlad_the_Bud-inhaler]

I do it a little, but I do try to avoid it unless I'm going to stick around and help with the rest of the fight,. I don't like the drive-by style.

However I have noticed myself feeling guilty in one regard. I like using the heavy steed Trample skill. It does a knockback and a small bleed on unmounted enemies. I just like to use them as bowling pins. However a couple times so far I've used Trample while someone else is attacking while on foot, and the enemy goes flying 20 feet and the other player then has to run to get back into melee range. Oops!

So my apologies to any players who've seen their enemies get knocked away from them while a dwarf laughing maniacally rides past on a comet.

This is why i quit the game i love playin the part of Bad guy but in lotro its ridiculous freeps get to level up buy custom lookin gear make stuff go places get horses , and creeps get auto max level OW JOY! (rolls eyes) no crafting no locations no leveling no gear its such a drag to play them i understand being evil is a drag but to make games playable u need to tone down ur psudoe-morality. Orcs,goblins, trolls r ancient races almost as old as elves the live in massive underground forts that we never even get to see or go in this game they craft live etc be it an ulgy existance just very disapointing playin this game i hate how safe freeps r in the outside its while creep players have to stay put in entenmoors like prisoners &&& i want open world pvp equal stuff for both sides or im out and pissed i hope some company makes a playable lotr game soon or turbine gives up its freep-lust.

[Vlad_the_Bud-inhaler]

+rep as the most intelligent thing anyone has said here so far.

People playing a massive multiplayer game solo r beyond &&&&&&&& (probaly reason the dont group no 1 lets um in lol ) there r tons of amazing single player rpgs that almost always out storyies mmos mmos r for guys who like multiplayin games that there buddies dont play (lol i got 1 buddy that stilllllll plays wow and another who plays ps1 games lol)
i sugest dragonage series

[Ailedra]

People playing a massive multiplayer game solo r beyond &&&&&&&& (probaly reason the dont group no 1 lets um in lol ) there r tons of amazing single player rpgs that almost always out storyies mmos mmos r for guys who like multiplayin games that there buddies dont play (lol i got 1 buddy that stilllllll plays wow and another who plays ps1 games lol)
i sugest dragonage series

In Dragon Age, can I group with other people if/when I choose to, yet still have a fulfilling solo experience when I chose to?
Can I interactively role-play with other human beings if I choose to (say, put on a concert)?
Can I participate in a player economy?
Can I see the effects of other players' actions on a shared world?

Can you see why your suggestion is entirely invalid, and doesn't reflect the entire "multiplayer" concept of the MMO genre?

Not only did your comment seem to work its way into the wrong thread (no part of this discussion devolved into the knee-jerk, dead horse "solo player vs. group player" garbage, thankfully), it lost relevance for this genre back in 2004.

Let me bounce it back at you, see if it still seems like such a nifty meme: if all you care about is co-operative group combat, may I suggest a console shooter?

The 8.1 update does indeed sound like the best of all worlds...it maintains the increased interactivity between solo players that Turbine was shooting for (which is a good thing), while restoring fair, reasonable game-play for group players (which is a better thing). Group vs. solo shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

[Dovuin]

Since my last post, I had the chance to see some more tapping. When soloing I like to gather a bigger group of mobs around me, half of the time someone else shows up they start fighting the mobs together with me, other times they just tap and move on. When they do fight together with me, they usually don't finish one mob before they move to the other and so effectively reduce the damage that I receive, no they switch non stop to ensure they have tapped every mob. I can handle the damage otherwise I wouldn't have pulled a large group. Nevertheless to me it looks like sensible playing is not rewarded anymore.

When I play with my wife (she has a captain and I log on my runekeeper) I just feel like a landscape soldier. She is a different kind of player. Sometimes she opens up her bags and looks at the stuff she just received, or she can't find the next mob quickly or she is reading quest notes or she is wondering why on earth she cannot pass on loot she doesn't want anymore. I'm fine with all that, after all she's is my wife and I love playing with her, or at least used to. Now I have to wait until she finishes whatever she is doing until I can go and attack the next mob. Because if I might kill the mob before she even gets to it, I usually wait with attacking until she did some damage.

Now I don't want my wife to change her playing style from very relaxed to hardcore, that just wouldn't fit her. At the same time I don't want to chance my style to just being a landscape soldier to her cappy. I just would really want to have the old rules back when in a fellowship. After all she does contribute to every fellowship we join, she is there, next to me. To me that is worth more then all the loot and xp I can gain by having her in my fellowship.

[Rainothon]

.... snip... i understand being evil is a drag ....snip....

I'm totally sidetracking here, but this is one message that really, really needs to be sent to the Real World. If all Real World villains would just stop their villainery so their life is no longer a drag...

Anyway, fellowing should have it's own set of tapping rules, stuff like CC-ing, fs-manouvers, debuffing and buffing should be considered tapping. That's how I see it. Convoluted? That's up to Turbine's software engineers to decide.

[HEYYAbbot]

having spent quite a bit of time in Rohan, i like the open tapping in areas where mobs are very limited and warbands as well. but if i see a warband that has lost a certain amount of morale gone i wont attack the warband because it isn't fair to the person who just dropped the warband that low. i really hate the way fellowships are hurt by the open tapping system. they really should have made the support skills and cc tap mobs. as a champion i can tap every mob i want and a burglar wouldn't be able to keep up this is a problem.

[Isharra]

In case people missed it:

As with any new system we closely monitor feedback for unexpected issues, ideas on how things can be improved and reports of unusual behaviours within the system. The open tapping concept was supposed to encourage plaeyrs to assist each other and make grouping more appealing, not less. Clearly something didn't turn out quite right in how this mechanic is working within feloowships.

Support classes being left out of the XP and loot pools was not the intention. We're working to address this issue and currently expect to resolve the fellowship issues by Update 8.1. This should result in all players in a fellowship receiving credit once again.

So basically, thread resolved.

[Jeffor]

This makes me happy. We will have the best of both worlds. Good discussion also. Props, LOTRO community.

[Artanisul]

Well, yeah. I didn't mean people shouldn't wonder. It's just that there have been posts along the lines of "I'm not going to get credit for an instance boss if I don't DPS it or heal a DPSer."

Not sure how long this guy goes on and on ...jumping in everytime someone says ANYTHING, but given the current system there IS a problem in instances if this doesnt get fixed. That is why people are asking why this system was put in as is in the first place. Groups need to be a tap...as a group...on an attack by any member of the group.

Still cant fathom why some people need to attack the same point over and over.

[musicman2000]

I just finished reading this thread finally -- it was tough to keep up LOL I've been reading it for days. Some good points have been raised and some really obtusely blind arguments......however, the main reason I"m posting though is to convey something I didn't see conveyed -- and it's crucial IMO for Turbine to consider as they look in to resolving the issue for 8.1.

Having finished the content now in Rohan and doing the numerous solo instances I couldn't help but notice that it's not just open world content where open tapping exists -- it's everywhere. Including solo instances. In other words -- in all Rohan solo instances the mobs start out with a grey x and that x turns green when you tap the mob. This is the new tapping system and can be a bit of a pain in defensive instances where NPC's can steal kills -- my main concern is that it appears that the open tapping system has been put in to Rohan inclusively over all content. It appears to be all or nothing -- since the system is kinda pointless in a solo instance.

This brings me to a real concern about the future instance cluster. If the tapping rules exist in the solo instances, then it is logical to assume that in Rohan fellowship isntances they will be there unless the modify the current blanket implementation that covers all content.

The issue of tanks offtanking and healers healing them getting no credit is going to become a very real concern and it's better to fix it proactively rather than reactively. And if I am correct that the way the solo instances function currently is an indication of what could happen in a fellowship instance then this becomes a much bigger problem potentially.

Again, I realize there are no fellowship instances currently in the game. It's just that the new tapping system exists everywhere in Rohan currently -- including the current existing solo instances. I repeat that for clarity.

I'm glad Turbine admitted they need to relook at this -- I'm hoping the 8.1 fix really addresses things. Open tapping was a great addition to the game -- it's just implemented in a way that's far from optimizing it's potential. In reality the changes to the system being more inclusive to a fellowship will make the system that much better. Instead of a bunch of individuals helping each other you'll see groups of friends helping each other. Imagine the possibility of a true open world raid Warband where you could have 2 to 4 kinships allied in helping each other kill it plus a bunch of folks solo along with them wanting to join in. In a proper tapping system everyone would get credit. THAT is ideal raiding freedom at it's finest -- and open tapping makes it possible eventually with some more tweaking.

[maxjenius]

Not sure how long this guy goes on and on ...jumping in everytime someone says ANYTHING, but given the current system there IS a problem in instances if this doesnt get fixed. That is why people are asking why this system was put in as is in the first place. Groups need to be a tap...as a group...on an attack by any member of the group.

I'm not sure if I should be flattered or creeped out that you're so obsessed with me and my posts that you missed not only Sapience's post about how this is going to be addressed, you also missed Isharra's repost of it, 2 posts and 1 day before yours.

Edit: Even more amazing, the post you replied to was over a week old.

[podgie_bear]

The saddest thing for me about this whole mess is just how long and how much anger/frustration/complaining it took to change Turbine's position from this;

So, just so everyone is aware, we've passed along the thoughts and opinions here to the team, and they will be discussing it. However, the current implementation of the system (the "you must contribute in order to get credit, regardless of fellowship") is intended by design. But, they will be looking at it and discussing it due to the conversations that have come up here.

With that said, I'm going to move this thread into the suggestions forum, as it is a suggestion to change a current aspect of the game. Everyone is certainly encouraged to continue to add their thoughts and opinions in this thread, so we can continue to keep track of the conversation. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\SIDNEY~1\AppData\Loca l\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image0 02.gif[/IMG]

to this;

As with any new system we closely monitor feedback for unexpected issues, ideas on how things can be improved and reports of unusual behaviours within the system. The open tapping concept was supposed to encourage plaeyrs to assist each other and make grouping more appealing, not less. Clearly something didn't turn out quite right in how this mechanic is working within feloowships.

Support classes being left out of the XP and loot pools was not the intention. We're working to address this issue and currently expect to resolve the fellowship issues by Update 8.1. This should result in all players in a fellowship receiving credit once again.

Did we really need to go through all this?

[Lohi]

The saddest thing for me about this whole mess is just how long and how much anger/frustration/complaining it took to change Turbine's position from this;

I don't understand. Their first post was "we are discussing this", and the second is "we have finished discussing it and are making changes". What's wrong with that? I don't see how the whole mess changed things and no indication that it would have remained status-quo without this thread. They had realized the problems very quickly, possibly even at the end of beta before it was released to general population.

Most of this mess essentially happened while they were having the discussions, thus this mess was not necessarily the cause of them changing their minds.

[podgie_bear]

I don't understand. Their first post was "we are discussing this", and the second is "we have finished discussing it and are making changes". What's wrong with that? I don't see how the whole mess changed things and no indication that it would have remained status-quo without this thread. They had realized the problems very quickly, possibly even at the end of beta before it was released to general population.

Most of this mess essentially happened while they were having the discussions, thus this mess was not necessarily the cause of them changing their minds.

This was pointed out in testing before it ever went live, but it went live anyway, then it was said to be WAI, then we will refer it for discussion, and finally, they have listened to feedback. They knew about it from the beginning!

[Damojo]

Still, the fact that you INTENDED for this system to originally work that way means:-

1) Every dev who green lighted this system originally, needs to be fired and their name blacklisted and NEVER allowed to ever become part of the gaming industry again.

2) Somebody should make a memorial site so that we should never forget that the most foolish idea in MMO history got past testing phase. The devs who played a part in green lighting this idea should be named and shamed on this site, and this site should be referenced for decades to come for future MMOs as a serious "What never to do" in multiplayer gaming platforms.

3) The fanbois who defended this initial idea, and those who said stuff like that genuine systems such as autofollow and grouping was exploiting, or that two boxing was bad, can we please have a list of their names and faces so that I can ensure I don't live near them, I never have to work with them or ever have to hire them. I can't imagine the damage their lack of critical thinking skills would do to my company. Having to choke back nausea reading their posts was too much to bear.

Anyways that's my feedback. Devs, don't EVER do anything like this again.

This is your demonstration of your own epic sanity and logic? Your three points are absurd, your threats empty, your instructions to the Devs on what they are and are not allowed to do in the future will be ignored. Because they don't work for you, and after that little display i would think they are eternally grateful for that fact.

Get over yourself, seriously.

[FundinStrongarm]

My wife and I havn't purchased RoR yet, [still working through Great River and old deeds] so I had no idea what open tapping was until today's patch so I decided to research it and found this thread.

I just HAVE to add my thoughts because, really, it seems like some of the devs of LOTRO decided they wanted a system which punished people who needed to go AFK and be on autofollow.

After testing today, it seems the system has/was some time back, been changed back to the realm of epic sanity and logic [You lotro fanbois and dev defenders will never possess those gifts] where all the group gets credit regardless of whether they are helping kill the mob, or afk changing the babys diaper.

Still, the fact that you INTENDED for this system to originally work that way means:-

1) Every dev who green lighted this system originally, needs to be fired and their name blacklisted and NEVER allowed to ever become part of the gaming industry again.

2) Somebody should make a memorial site so that we should never forget that the most foolish idea in MMO history got past testing phase. The devs who played a part in green lighting this idea should be named and shamed on this site, and this site should be referenced for decades to come for future MMOs as a serious "What never to do" in multiplayer gaming platforms.

3) The fanbois who defended this initial idea, and those who said stuff like that genuine systems such as autofollow and grouping was exploiting, or that two boxing was bad, can we please have a list of their names and faces so that I can ensure I don't live near them, I never have to work with them or ever have to hire them. I can't imagine the damage their lack of critical thinking skills would do to my company. Having to choke back nausea reading their posts was too much to bear.

Anyways that's my feedback. Devs, don't EVER do anything like this again.

Huh? The original implementation was that fellowhips/autofollows would not get credit for kills. Due to uproar from players used to normal fellowship rules in the rest of ME, the devs gave fellowships full credit for kills even if they did no damage nor healed those that did. I'm not sure why you are complaining about it now - it was changed with patch/update 8.1.

Of course, the players did find a way to exploit/abuse the fellowship/raid kill credit and several public instance Hytbold dailies were shut down for a couple weeks because of it. Under original implementation, the exploit/abuse was not possible to as great an extent.

I'm not really sure what you are complaining about here.