What's normal, what's an exploit - item swapping for bonuses

[SabrielofLorien]

There are other items that you can use to swap stuff that are not Lua code. G13, G15, G19, Razer Mouse and a lot of other peripherals have the ability to map items to keys or the extra keys offered.

You can put a whole swap out on 1 key if you want to with this. I used to do it with my guard on a G13, until they removed the need to un-equip the shield for OP and re-equip for BLOCK. All the items have to be on a QS. You map them, in the order you want to a multi-key "hardware macro". Press as needed.

Some folks can map whole combat rotations to a Razer Mouse Thumb Key.

Eons ago, these were all accepted as long as it wasn't "un-attended". Can you imagine what Razer or Logitech would have to say to WB/T if these were not allowed? And I'm sure they did at the beginning.

An earlier post mentioned pocket item swapping. I swap out boots. One old pair has a 8% OOCombat run speed. The other is the match to my armour set.

A likely fix is the SWTOR one. Upgradeable (e.g. Legendary) Armour. Swap in and out amour ratings/mod/enhancements as you like on your toon.

Once bridles are done, I expect this.

[Elaida]

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

What about buffs given to the player or even the whole fellowship through legendary items? Here's two examples:

• I know several Hunters, who have a separate melee weapon to switch into, even only for getting Find the Path on with maximum speed buff. The buff stays on with the higher bonus even if their actual fighting weapon doesn't have the legacy.
  
  
• Captains with separate buffing weapons. I have a Captain myself, but I haven't been able to get a buffing weapon with all three legacies I would obviously want. So, at the moment, I am using a two-hander for fighting and two other random weapons for buffing. One of them gives +5% to Motivating Speech, the other has both Tactics (Relentless and On Guard) on maximum rank.
  
  Also, there are some Captains who are using a "buffing emblem" as well to get for example Strength of Will bonuses applied when they renew the buff on their shield-or-whatever-brother et cetera.

All of this is also quite obviously classified as "creative use of game mechanics", but are you going to attempt changing this as well? I certainly hope you aren't, as it would cause a mass-metamorphosis - a lot of Captains would be changed into very, very sad and angry pandas... :P

[Elfheart]

< snip>
P.s. a skill that is "useless" or "under performing" without a set bonus is broken and should be fixed.

Seriously without the set bonus that removes the stupidly long induction it is pointless to use.

[AndiZ]

- a lot of Captains would be changed into very, very sad and angry pandas... :P

And many many other captains (like me ) would be very happy, when the necessity for buff weapons and emblems becomes removed, because all thist stupid clicking becomes tedious and takes the dynamic out of the game.

[Elaida]

And many many other captains (like me ) would be very happy, when the necessity for buff weapons and emblems becomes removed, because all thist stupid clicking becomes tedious and takes the dynamic out of the game.

True. I have my weapons in quickslots though, so it's gone into being a routine. When it's time to renew buffs, I click the first buff weapon, then Motivating Speech, then the other buffing weapon, renew tactics of the group, and finally I click on the last quickslot in that row to equip my actual fighting weapon again.

That's not really too much considering it's only once per 30 minutes. I would never bother with buffing emblems for SoW etc though. Unless I used my G19 keyboard to create some macros for that.. Hmm.. Hit one keyboard button > switch emblem, renew buff, switch emblem back. Food for thought, eh?

That would be perfectly legitimate gameplay as it can't be classified as being unattended... Please correct me if I'm wrong. :P

[Lestache]

Huh?

Really??

It makes sense to not be able to swap armour but DOES make sense to be able to swap weapons???

How can that possibly make sense?

If you can't swap armour, you should only be able to swap weapons if you are back at the location the other weaponry is stored, or perhaps sacrifice your current weapon by discarding it on the ground?

Meanwhile, we only have one pocket, so any jewelry you want to swap should mean discarding the existing worn pieces if you happen to find a replacement alternative in hand.

Game design is a concession. Lotro is geared toward fun. The game is designed to require you swap certain items, it makes no sense that other arbitrary items can't be swapped, remember, they are all the exact same thing, pixels with a label and attributes in a database.

It would make no sense that you could swap a ring, offering mitigations and a set bonus but not a glove, when you'd have to take the gauntlet off to get to the ring underneath!

For all the folks suggesting "it doesn't make sense", how does it "make sense" to be able to swap a smaller quantity? If an entire set being swapped bothers you, change your perspective to consider they are only swapping five or six pieces of their set of their 18 pieces of gear, just a third of it!

Starting to pick nits and suggesting you can swap X but not Y enters a very slippery slope, and makes it harder for designers (as RockX pointed out, already designing around the premise), and harder to determine what is a bug versus what is not.

It's much easier for a company to make it clear, rather than the condition being "some". It's also much less confusing for the populace, which already is overwhelmed with aspects of this game (look at all the people who play up to the level of obtaining legendaries, then quit or make an alt to play from start to 45 again).

I'd be happy to see no in-combat switching of any gear, including jewelry. I only mentioned armor and weapons above because they seem like the largest offenders.

[bastiat1]

It's really going to suck for all of the guys that needlessly brag about their swapping prowess when Turbine very easily disables it. I hope you are happy with your 1337|\|355.

[Galahadur]

It's really going to suck for all of the guys that needlessly brag about their swapping prowess when Turbine very easily disables it. I hope you are happy with your 1337|\|355.

There's nothing l33t about putting equipment pieces in quickslots. Even my 2yr old could probably do that...

[Mr.Hidden]

I hate item swapping during combat, but as a captain, you are forced to, when you want to use your class effectively.

So please please please get rid of buff weapons and emblems, but get rid of the Buff Legacies, too! (like the Legacy for Tactics: Relentless Attack and Motivating Speech)

It is so hard problem to have one LI slot used with buff weapon and do two clicks more each 30 minutes for buffs? I don't think so. I like the legacies with bonuses provided to buffs and I will gladly spent one slot and two clicks for it, I am doing it as a captain for the fellowship and not just for my pleasure. Lazy captains probably doesn't bother with buff weapon for the fellowship benefits, I do. I like this principle (in opposite of the case described by Curioser in first post )

[AndiZ]

No, it's not hard to do this two clicks, of course. But the whole mechanic is annoying, since you are forced to do it, when you want to support your fellowship in the best way and so it's expected from a captain (I've built my fourth buff weapon and emblem with Rohan now).

I'd be so much happier, if this legacies become replaced with things, I can use on my actual weapon, and get the bonus of the legacy in another way (there are enough good suggestions in the captains forum). Why create a legacy at all, when it isn't an option, but a necessity? Since you naturally want your fellowship to succeed, you simply don't have the choice as a raid captain and this is wrong in my eyes and has nothing to do with laziness.

And since even RockX pointed out, he doesn't want this swap items take too much room in your bag space, I hope something will be done in the future. As an example, for the Orthanc raid I had a buff weapon, a buff emblem, some exchange jewelry, five parts of the Draigoch Set and five parts of the Orthanc heal set in my bag; today you need to have three parts of the Ettenmoors set for the 6 seconds rallying cry bonus, too, if you don't want to be a "lazy captain".

[mr_toad]

I don't swap myself. I like to pick the best overall armor and stick with it. I don't look down on others who swap, it seems like a pain to do though even with macros.

[Mr.Hidden]

....
And since even RockX pointed out, he doesn't want this swap items take too much room in your bag space, I hope something will be done in the future. As an example, for the Orthanc raid I had a buff weapon, a buff emblem, some exchange jewelry, five parts of the Draigoch Set and five parts of the Orthanc heal set in my bag; today you need to have three parts of the Ettenmoors set for the 6 seconds rallying cry bonus, too, if you don't want to be a "lazy captain".

Ah, maybe there is a difference in what we see as buffs then. I am talking about some pre-fight preparations like Motivating speech and Tactic: XXX buffs. I personally see absolutely alright when those are maxed with legacies on another weapon and used usually before the fight. But, when we are talking about some legacies or armour bonuses which reduces cooldowns of some skills or improving Marks, etc. that are used/swapped during the fight before the skill use - well, I do not see it so alright. It's exactly same case as Curioser described with hunter. Maybe it's not an exploit as RockX said, but I still personally feel this is like a cheating, thus I do not use it. When all those bonuses/legacies were intended to be used "at once", then we should be able to have all legacies on one weapon/emblem and all armour bonuses placed on one ultimate uber-armour, right? All classes are "forced" to choose their path with legacies/armour sets/whatever, they must sacrifice something to get another benefit and I do not see right when someone gets all gear with all bonuses possible and is actively swapping it during the fight before each skill (when we takes it to the extreme). It completely ruins the game mechanics which we can name like "Make your choice (tm)" in my opinion.

[Macroscian]

It's only ever a problem if someone calls you a noob for not having a second set of armor ready for swapping in for one skill in combat.

[AndiZ]

The problem with the captain is, that he has an enormous amount of possibilities for using this "game mechanic". For example, put 5 parts of the Hytbold Damage Set on and put the 20% Damage to Heal Sign on a Boss Monster, then swap to three parts of the Ettenmoors armor in fight to gain the 6 Sec Rallying Cry. When someone dies put some parts of the other Ettenmoors Armor on or (cheaper) the old Rift set for faster Battle-Resurrection. Or gain a tactical mitigation bonus on Motivating Speech with the (otherwise awful) Orthanc tanking set. And these are just some examples for armor sets.

And this goes on for the legendary items. Buff sticks with Motivating speech and Crit Buff seem harmless, but when does "cheating" start? Again, when someone dies, you can swap to your buff emblem and get a much fast battle rezz cooldown with a legacy, you can get longer Make Haste Duration on your Buff-Stick, you can put the +10% Strength of Will effect bonus on a buff emblem (this is a huge advantage in combat, when healing a tank or supporting a damage dealer). And this is a buff, too. The only difference to Motivating speech is, it only lasts for 3 Minutes, but it's just two clicks to do it. Same goes for Time of Need. And you can still have your main weapon and emblem with your prime legacies on it, that strengthen your heals, etc.

You see, the possibilities for a captain are nearly endless and a player that uses a Macro Keyboard or Mouse can get an enormous advantage in combat over other captains. You can start to make rules, that Buff-Sticks are okay, but Strength of Will effects are "cheating", for example, but that's totally subjective, because as RockX said it's just a "creative usage of a game mechanic" and not exploiting. And there are raid kinships, where buff weapons and emblems (not only buff sticks) are expected, because of the advantage when facing the difficult content (like Orthanc T2 was on Lvl75). And that's the reason why I want to get rid of Item Swapping altogether. (another reason is, that it's totally unrealistic). There are enough good proposals, how to replace buff-sticks in the captains forums (for example http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ing-Buffsticks)

[Mr.Hidden]

Captain is a very versatile class and it just increases these possibilities, with no doubts. But, as we can see there, this problem of gear swapping (if we call it as a problem) is not limited just to captains and if it should be solved, it needs some general solution like - no gear swapping allowed during the fight, except for the broken (red) pieces. As I have absolutely no problem with this restriction, I can also imagine this step will have a negative feedback from the community. For example due the fact that someone may forget to swap gear before the fight and then it's too late. I do not mention permanent in-fight gear swappers, too.

[Raven-EU]

< snip>
P.s. a skill that is "useless" or "under performing" without a set bonus is broken and should be fixed.

Seriously without the set bonus that removes the stupidly long induction it is pointless to use.

That would be one of them for sure. I'm envisioning the induction removed/reduced while in stealth or having used iFA Ahhhhhh.....

[Arelendil]

In reponse to Rockx's claims devs don't like it, is it correct to assume that the hardest raid content is therefore designed to be completed with no item swapping?

I would be willing to bet a large stack of red agates that all of the tiny handful of kins who completed all the Orthanc T2 challenges on level had most players doing some swapping in combat just to make it possible.

Personally I play a Captain and always carry 5 pieces of the Orthanc tanking armour for the crit defence bonus to motivating speach, a buffstick and an emblem with time of need and rez cd legacies. I only swap my emblem in combat at the moment, but that seems the bare minimum to do my job effectively. I used to swap for strength of willl in combat, but now have it on my main emblem.

Raven EU's suggestion of a 10 second cd wouldn't effect my playstyle but would stop the more blatant sytem gaming, so sounds good to me!

[Southpa]

There's nothing l33t about putting equipment pieces in quickslots. Even my 2yr old could probably do that...

Right, it's so leet you don't even bother right? Wait, I know, you're so leet you don't even need to bother, I bet? And I'm going to go out on a limb and bet your 2 year old doesn't posses the thought processes necessary to make the call as to which 2 items to swap between and for what purposes. No offense to your 2-year old.

Not to mention that if you aren't somewhat good at it, you probably lose more than you gain by swapping.

Not everyone who does it brags about it. It's a shame some people can't realize that some things just don't need to be discussed at length in a public forum - especially when an itemization dev says item swapping makes him a "sad panda".

But really? A sad panda? I would think there are plenty of other things in this game to be sad about before item swapping, Rock, but that's just me. Like all the broken things, maybe? I assume this topic has already been discussed by devs in the past anyway since all clickies didn't always have the lengthy cooldowns attached to them when equipped...

Item swapping is one of the precious few variables left that allows more than a rudimentary thought process regarding combat. They've dumbed combat down to a sickening degree. If they were to prevent in-combat swapping (something that has been possible since the dawn of the game) it would quite possibly be the final straw for more than a few people, including me. There are some things that just don't need to be governed, especially considering no amount of swapping gives anyone an advantage so great it unbalances the game. But sure, punish the people who actually attempt to be resourceful in their play.

I don't think LotRO is in any position to turn-away additional segments of their player base. It's not like swapping is necessary to the game, but it's integral to some people who play the game. It's a bit of game within the game. Some people like to force an entire room to feint with a stupid emote, some people like to switch items in combat. Leave it alone, please.

It's hardly an exploit if it's been with the game since, erm, ever.

[Southpa]

In reponse to Rockx's claims devs don't like it, is it correct to assume that the hardest raid content is therefore designed to be completed with no item swapping?

Heh, you seriously think they can design it within those parameters? It's a variable, just like each group that goes into a raid possesses its own set of variables which are independent of any other group that attempts the same content. You're attempting to give far too much credit to design.

I would be willing to bet a large stack of red agates that all of the tiny handful of kins who completed all the Orthanc T2 challenges on level had most players doing some swapping in combat just to make it possible.

And I would be willing to bet a sizeable pile of desirable swappies that you are incorrect. Our kin did not have a majority of our raiders swapping items in combat. I know this for a fact. There is far more than goes into most of these fights than a 5% DPS bonus or shorter skill cooldown. Do you have experience raiding at a high level? You certainly make it look like you do not. But I guess it's easier to swallow lack of accomplishment by claiming those who did accomplish are cheaters or exploiters, right?

Personally I play a Captain and always carry 5 pieces of the Orthanc tanking armour for the crit defence bonus to motivating speach, a buffstick and an emblem with time of need and rez cd legacies. I only swap my emblem in combat at the moment, but that seems the bare minimum to do my job effectively. I used to swap for strength of willl in combat, but now have it on my main emblem.

Heh, "bare minimum" or rather "all I'm willing to do"? Realize your standards apply to your world only.

Raven EU's suggestion of a 10 second cd wouldn't effect my playstyle but would stop the more blatant sytem gaming, so sounds good to me!

Right, because it won't affect how you play the game it's OK. Yep, that's a great reason for a universal change.

[MithrielWielder]

Using low level armor set bonuses in this fashion with macros meets my definition of exploit. Apparantly, however, it does not meet the dev's definition, according to an earlier post in this thread. And therein lies much of the problem with this game. The devs' constantly pandering to this small group of players who consider themselves "elite," but whose primary attribute is excluding players from their Kin for not being "elite" enuf. Another example of how LOTRO panders to this crowd is constantly making the new instances harder a few weeks after launch (after the "elites" have gotten their gear the easy way) to preclude non elite players from getting the same gear. This has happened with every single "expansion" and update that launched new instances. An example at 75 was the three man Dargnakh instance where they made the second boss have unlimited power because the instance was too "easy." After this the instance became unplayable (except perhaps for those players using macro swapped armor sets). Following this pattern, I expect the drop rate for symbols in BG will be nerfed within the next week or so (or BG made harder to complete) to prevent the non "elite" players from getting second age weapons at the same rate.

Most people do not know how to use macros, or do not want to. Allowing players to do this is akin to having a double set of loot tables with the dev's favored players getting extra, unearned, loot. That is not fair to the casual player, and its a disincentive to play this game.

[Ruintheliel]

I put my own limit at swapping an entire armour set for a low cooldown skill in combat. Not because I find it a cheat, but because I find it cumbersome (despite the fact that I got a Logitech G510). I did routinely swap two pieces of armour on my cappy to get the tactical mitigation on motivation using a macro, but that was alright given the duration.

But start messing with LI swapping for skills such as Motivation and the Tactics buffs and I'll not even bother with my cappy anymore. Swapping LIs for greater benefits is not a cause in itself, not the underlying problem - it's a symptom, caused by a poorly designed LI system. For no class is the LI system worse than for the captains and for no other class is the LI swapping more widespread than for the captains.

I think I could live with armour swapping being disabled in combat, but I don't really see the point of it. No one is given such a large advantage that it endangers the balance of the encounter, nor is it required for anything - not even when ToO t2c was on level.

[Kril]

I usually carry a cloak that reduces frost damage; that's handy in Forochel and in the snowy part outside of Moria. I switch to it when needed. Not much else, though.

This is situational gear swapping due to environment though, and not while in combat (generally). Colder weather, throw on a heavier cloak. In 99.9% of the cases, people didn't wander around in heavy armour either, they wore either regular clothes, or maybe leather, switching to the heavy armour for an impending battle or while travelling through an area where a fight could be expected. Once the fight has started, you won't find people trying to get dressed/undressed while someone is trying to lop off their head.

Because the OP has failed to explain what he means, allow me:
Do you think it is an exploit that people are using macros to repeatedly swap out entire sets you gear to reduce the cooldowns in their dps rotations during combat. I'm not talking about captains swapping weapons or LM swapping books. I'm talking about things like hunters changing all of their gear to the faron set every time they cast penetrating shot or blood arrow and then changing back to hytbold-bowmaster set to cast swift bow. Since they aren't manually clicking the items, there is no delay. I seriously doubt the developers had this in mind when they designed these sets.
Fortunately it has a very simple fix:
Stop allowing players to change gear during combat (weapons and LIs should still be allowed).

Exactly. +rep. Although, I would rather seen an induction for gear swapping, allow it so people can fix mistakes, but at such a drawback that they can't instantly swap for set bonuses. Weapons and other 'held' items however should have minimal or no penalty.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

- Rep for the WoW reference from a LOTRO Dev... Now we know how all the development time on LOTRO is really spent...

[Ruintheliel]

Using low level armor set bonuses in this fashion with macros meets my definition of exploit. Apparantly, however, it does not meet the dev's definition, according to an earlier post in this thread. And therein lies much of the problem with this game. The devs' constantly pandering to this small group of players who consider themselves "elite," but whose primary attribute is excluding players from their Kin for not being "elite" enuf. Another example of how LOTRO panders to this crowd is constantly making the new instances harder a few weeks after launch (after the "elites" have gotten their gear the easy way) to preclude non elite players from getting the same gear. This has happened with every single "expansion" and update that launched new instances. An example at 75 was the three man Dargnakh instance where they made the second boss have unlimited power because the instance was too "easy." After this the instance became unplayable (except perhaps for those players using macro swapped armor sets). Following this pattern, I expect the drop rate for symbols in BG will be nerfed within the next week or so (or BG made harder to complete) to prevent the non "elite" players from getting second age weapons at the same rate.

Most people do not know how to use macros, or do not want to. Allowing players to do this is akin to having a double set of loot tables with the dev's favored players getting extra, unearned, loot. That is not fair to the casual player, and its a disincentive to play this game.

How is that tin foil hat fitting you?
And please direct me to which set bonus you could swap for to fully counteract Dargnakh's blatantly bugged damage?

[TheStormKing]

Hello, I'm Blackhawk, Captain of Gondor, and I use a G13 GamePad to swap gear in and out.

I haul around 16 extra armour pieces, and 8 LIs, all of which are tied to specific skills. I am quoting this post because it is the root of the discussion.

Because the OP has failed to explain what he means, allow me:
Do you think it is an exploit that people are using macros to repeatedly swap out entire sets you gear to reduce the cooldowns in their dps rotations during combat.

No, it is not an exploit. How can it possibly be one? I am doing something more efficiently than tediously clicking them myself. It is not unattended gameplay. I am actively playing the whole time: more so than most, having spent so much time getting it right (it is an art, and a science, getting the G13 to work correctly for this).

Since they aren't manually clicking the items, there is no delay.

Wrong. Soo wrong. There is delay, and if you don't account for it, then using a G13 is WORSE than using the keyboard. The more gear you swap out, the longer the delay. For example, when I swap out for my Isengard gear to get the extra tac mit on Motivated Speech, it takes about 8 seconds for the swap to take effect.

Fortunately it has a very simple fix:
Stop allowing players to change gear during combat (weapons and LIs should still be allowed).

You are not talking about a fix. You are talking about gimping players who are taking their game to the next level, for no reason. It is certainly fun trying to optimize my abilities ingame. Why would that harm anyone?

My kinmates do like the 2.5 minute cooldown on Escape from Darkness though... Among many other, more subtle things they don't know they are enjoying.

[Arelendil]

Heh, you seriously think they can design it within those parameters? It's a variable, just like each group that goes into a raid possesses its own set of variables which are independent of any other group that attempts the same content. You're attempting to give far too much credit to design.

I'm replying as you sound so negative and aggresive I must have not made my brief points clearly, and you have jumped to some incorrect assumptions that seem to have made you grumpy. My observation is that the last new raid, Orthanc was very difficult and needed players to push to their limits individually and as a group to complete. Things like having everyone with first age LIs made a big difference, so it's not a huge leap to assume the noticeable gains in raid wide dps and healing gained through item swapping have a big impact on chance of successful completion. It's clear the devs are aware of item swapping, so it's not an outlandish consideration that it may have been reckoned in when setting difficulty parameters.

And I would be willing to bet a sizeable pile of desirable swappies that you are incorrect. Our kin did not have a majority of our raiders swapping items in combat. I know this for a fact. There is far more than goes into most of these fights than a 5% DPS bonus or shorter skill cooldown. Do you have experience raiding at a high level? You certainly make it look like you do not. But I guess it's easier to swallow lack of accomplishment by claiming those who did accomplish are cheaters or exploiters, right?

Shame you're not on Eldar so you can't mail me that 'pile of desirable swappies'. For what it's worth I have extensive high level raiding experience on the Captain class and play on Eldar which has more successful raiding kins than most servers, certainly than your server of Arkenstone. I talk and group with these players regularly. Now I'm confused, If as you say you have actually tried raiding Orthanc in T2 challenge mode you would know that your example of 5% DPS bonus is the difference between success and failure in most of the fights, but you say you know for a fact that this isn't what matters to succeed? You weren't trying to call my bluff were you? Tip: have you heard of DPS races? Orthnac has some. Reading that makes me think you haven't been to Orthanc in T2 and don't know what you're talking about. If this is not true then I can only assume you are the greatest player in the greatest kin in the world if you managed to do all of Orthanc on level without item swapping and avoiding DPS races due to your superior skills and tactics. Anyway I have said I item swap a little and don't consider it an exploit.

Heh, "bare minimum" or rather "all I'm willing to do"? Realize your standards apply to your world only.

For my playstyle and in my opinion on the Captain class, a minimum of swapping is beneficial. I'd rather be trying to keep an eye on buffs, heals needed, the RAT changing, reacting to fight mechanics and so on than spending 1-2 secs swapping items in combat. Some players may think differently, there's no right or wrong here.

Right, because it won't affect how you play the game it's OK. Yep, that's a grat reason for a universal change.

So to conclude you are arguing against me for a range of self contradictory reasons. You don't like that I item swap a little myself but that I support a change that would limit swapping and not affect you and your great non item swapping kin anyway? You also say I'm not going to great enough lengths in what I am prepared to swap in combat - my bare minimum is all I'm willing to do you say, implying I should be doing more swapping? You criticise me for both carrying out item swapping at the moment, not item swapping enough and also for wanting a slight, sensible limit imposed on swapping too, even though you claim not to item swap?