At last, is the Big Battle of Helm's Deep Lore-Breaking?

[Laire]

Sure, but a thoroughly expected one, in my opinion. This expansion centers about an iconic battle, and requiring players to park the characters we've invested hundreds (or thousands!) of hours playing while we skin up as Generic Rohirrim #26 is a bridge too far for an entertainment company.

I still don't accept Rune-keepers as appropriate for this setting. But that opinion isn't really worth much in the grand scheme of things, and you know what? I held out for a year, but then started an RK and have had fun with him. He's level 85 .

Khafar

Hahah! I gave in and made one too about 2010. She really has not been leveled and is just a crafting alt, but I want to play her basically when they revamp the Trollshaws (HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE) and the North Downs (cough cough) and maybe the Misty Mountains (*wheezes*)

I consider The Lord of the Rings Online a parallel universe to the one in The Lord of the Rings. In fact, every person playing the game creates a different parallel universe as we each experience our own, unique, internal dialog while playing. These universes have much in common with the books, but also many notable differences. In my opinion, the game universe remains reasonably true to the source material. Where they diverge, I feel the The Lord or the Rings Online stands upon its own merits. In other words, I think this game tells a good, alternate version of the story.

I view it the same way, both with my non-RP toons and my RP toons... especially since my RP toons are living in a time that a 6 month war has taken 6+ RL years already... and that is only counting real world days, not ingame days like a couple folks choose to do.

[bohbashum]

is it lore-breaker to retrait your war-steed on landscape by throwing money on the ground?

if so, we've already gone too far.

just playing the game, letting frodo die in the session play (you all did it!!!) has broken the lotr world enough.

but there being 20+ sarumans, no, that makes complete sense too...

one of the few things that are realistic, is shooting 10 arrows in the air before the first one drops. hunter is actually more realistic than people thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g

[Runesi_EU]

Yes, it's a "lorebreak", clearly, we have all read the books and know the deal here, we shouldn't be at the Hornburg.

However, had my character (yes my character I've been playing for years, not some session play thing. Did I mention she's a Runekeeper?) not been able to partake in the Battle of the Hornburg I would have been far more disappointed than I ever will be by this "lorebreak". I also expect to be at the Battle of Pelennor Fields, with Faramir's company when he encounters Frodo and at the Black Gate with Aragorn, no matter how unlikely that journey sounds.

This would be a very dull game had my characters stuck religiously to the "lore".

[seekingerin]

It's always seemed a little silly to me to think that our presence at Helm's Deep would be lore-breaking. There are legitimate arguments to be had about what breaks the lore and what doesn't and when it's okay to break the lore, but I just don't think this breaks the lore in any meaningful way.

Think of it like a concert. There were around 2,000 Rohirrim defenders at Helm's Deep before Gandalf arrived, and there were well over 10,000 orcs and Dunlending attackers. Gandalf brought 1,000 more soldiers when he arrived. I don't think the 2,000 number includes non-combatants, so there would have been even more people wandering around the keep before the battle started. Even putting aside attackers, reinforcements, and non-combatants, you have 2,000 defenders. 2,000 people is the size of a decent-sized concert, I'd imagine. And like an average concert, the Battle of the Hornburg took place at night, it only lasted a few hours, there was a lot of noise and commotion that would have made chit-chat pretty difficult, and people were paying more attention to, you know, what was going on in front of them than in scanning the crowd for familiar faces.

So suppose you go to a big concert, and, unknown to you, a friend of yours also attends the concert. Are you likely to find out your friend is there? Probably not... it's a big crowd, it's dark, and there's too much going on for you to notice every single person around you. You might happen to bump into your friend, but more likely, you won't have any idea your friend was there until you're talking a few days later and one of you mentions this awesome concert you attended.

The books don't mention that Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli happened to brush shoulders with some friends from Eriador they've met a few times over the last few months... but then, they probably wouldn't see us. Not in a big crowd and in the heat of the battle. And there's a lot of stuff that happens "off screen", so to speak. We don't know what was happening in Thorin's Gate when the Fellowship was in Bree. We don't know what was happening in, say, Aldburg (an important canonical Rohirrim city) during the Battle of the Hornburg. We don't even really know all the details of what was happening among the non-combatants in the caves below Helm's Deep. Maybe there was a young Rohirrim woman who was caring for a wounded soldier, and they looked into each others eyes and fell madly in love and agreed to run away after this whole war thing was over and set up in Cliving and start a family together. We wouldn't know that because Aragorn and Gimli and Legolas weren't there to see it happen, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means we didn't know it happened. A bunch of stuff happens that the Fellowship doesn't know about because they're not there to see it happen.

That's what bugs me about a lot of these lore arguments. People say certain events break the lore because Tolkien didn't happen to describe those particular events... but as long as there's not evidence in the books that something DIDN'T happen, there's no reason to say that it didn't. If we say that only the stuff that happens in the books is allowed to happen in the game--oh, and we're also not allowed to participate in any events unless we're specifically mentioned as participants--then there really isn't a game, is there?

As for having a handful of elves and dwarves and hobbits take part in the battle, that probably does break the lore, but it doesn't break the lore any more than having dwarves in Lothlorien or having a bunch of humans in the Shire or having hobbits roam around Rohan without comment. LOTRO doesn't really take into account our races. I actually wish Turbine would do more with race-based storylines, but they've apparently decided that isn't worth the effort, so it's just something we have to accept. Taking my elven characters to Helm's Deep breaks the lore, yes, but not any more than any other time a character of X race is hanging out where people of X race just don't hang out.

[Kongas]

Is it Lore-breaking?

Yes.

Do I care?

No.

[Witch0King]

I love lore monkeys. I am surprised they don't got anything better to do with their time than complain and whine.

Can't wait to fight in Helms Deep

I do agree with seekingerin though. I wish the race you picked would matter to some degree in the story. If a hobbit actually stands up and defeats Mordirith he should be just as praised as Frodo. However as it is, you prize Frodo for carrying a evil ring while you wrestle Nazgul with no gratitude from others.
What was so fantastic about SWTOR was that you could make so many choices that defined your character. I wish LOTRO would make your character a little more based on your choices and not being the goody good good all the time. NPCs badmouth me and all I can do is soften the pillow they sit on. That's the one thing that gets me. In PVMP for instance, your rank improves, but you're still a maggot to each and every npc. So yeah, if Helms Deep would take your character a little more seriously that would be great.

Tolkien didn't mention every single character at Helms Deep no? which doesn't make it lore breaking IMO.

[Nyrion]

Is it Lore-breaking?

Yes.

Do I care?

No.

This about sums me up. Of course it's lore-breaking, there's no way it couldn't be. There's also no way Turbine would get away with denying us the opportunity for our characters to take part. That would create a ragenado of a size not seen before on these forums.

[Vandervahn]

The trouble with many lore monkeys (similar to many religious types fixated on their scriptures) is that they treat their "canon" as sacrosanct. Lore-breaking is one thing. Turbine does a lot of that, or else we would have a much blander game.

There are however also a lot of weaknesses in the lore. Yes, Tolkien wrote about the composition of the Helms Deep fight. But it is simply shoddy writing right there. Given that Middle earth is supposed to be a living, breathing world, and seeing Rohans importance, bottleneck position and strategic placement, it is completely inconceivable that there are not a lot of travellers in Rohan at all times. And it makes zero military sense to exclude fighting travellers from fleeing to HD and helping out there. (If the Rohirrim expected a siege, probably, tro preserve supplies. But they knew there was to be a decisive battle from the start, as Saruman couldnt bind his troops in a siege for a longer period of time)

A second thing to consider is the actual impact of lore breakings. Having eagle mounts for example would be a considerable violation of Canon because of their status in the elitist hierarchy of Tolkiens world. Not to forget, their use in the original story itself is highly questionable as they present a convenient deus-ex-machina while it makes little sense not to directly use them in aiding the travel to Mount Doom - another writing weakness.

Compared to the "eagle dilemma", having non-Rohirrim fight in HD does not in any way, shape or form actually harm the consistency of the world, despite directly going against the lore. Lastly, most lvl 95 characters will be kindrd with at least 7 Rohirrim factions by that time, some will hold the rank of Thane (the highest civil rank) and some others will be men from Rohan since their creation. We are at least honorary Rohirrim, for all intents and purposes

It is a very different question what to make of the Elf/Dwarf/Hobbit players that will appear in the fight. But their appearance there would not break the lore more less than their existence as player characters in the first place.

[Radbug]

This about sums me up. Of course it's lore-breaking, there's no way it couldn't be. There's also no way Turbine would get away with denying us the opportunity for our characters to take part. That would create a ragenado of a size not seen before on these forums.

Exactly this. I just don't see how people can be upset about this. It was always coming and it was always going to be a true dilemma. Completely impossible to please everybody.

Options:

1. Ignore the Battle completely
2. Session play
3. Have an unconnected Rohirrim avatar at HD
4. Let our characters experience the Battle

All of those options are going to annoy different folks to one extent or another. To me only 3 & 4 are viable. I'm happy they went with 4.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

In defence of Turbine, they have a product to sell and do that it has to reference the key elements of the LOTR story. As someone posted earlier in this thread, the "lore" was broken the day our characters stepped foot out of the starter areas. We would not have been able to journey to each and every point in Eriador, travel back & forth between Rivendel & Lothlorien, etc etc etc.

What LOTRO provides is essentially a parallel story where our characters are the heroes & the LOTR plot is background to that. Unfortunately that means that some liberties will be taken but we have all known that from the start - otherwise our characters would never experience the events & locales of Tolkien's Middle Earth at the end of the 3rd age. Turbine would be mad not to make use of the licence to it's fullest extent.

In my opinion if LOTRO had instead been "Middle Earth Online", set for example in the early 3rd age then the lore could well have been enforced but in a similar manner as the old ICE MERP campaign modules - providing the context for the detailed story & events. However Turbine decided on "Lord of the Rings Online" and we just have to accept the compromises that a commercial MMO based on this story will bring.

Edit - of course when it comes to lore-breaking and Helms Deep, Peter Jackson committed a far greater heresy...

[Vespo]

After having beaten 2 balrogs, climbed to the top of Orthanc and bested Saruman, rubbed elbows with a rune-keeper, defeated the Lt. Of Dol Guldur, and bumped into a dragon in Eriador, I am classifying this lorebreak as minor. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a gatling gun to ready for Helm's Deep...

This actually made me laugh out loud and as I'm sneakily reading this whilst at work I now have other members of my office thinking I'm losing it due to the stress of my work.

Back on topic I think everyone should relax. As long as the long road of lore is adhered to without too many diversions all should be fine. However we should be realistic that an element of freedom has to be acceptable so the creative juices of the design/development team can provide us with more of the good stuff it already has. As for VIP slot machines comments these have nothing to do with the story and are effectively a bolt on bonus to your subscription. The slot machine works outside of the world (although the prize subsequently becomes 'in world' once it hits your inventory) I don't see this as a lore break. In order to get your bag of old copper coins you do not see your characters playing the slots in the Pony whilst having a pint with Barliman do you?

[Kongas]

4. Let our characters experience the Battle

All of those options are going to annoy different folks to one extent or another. To me only 3 & 4 are viable. I'm happy they went with 4.

That was the only viable option for me. As far as I'm concerned I'm in an alternate reality Middle Earth where things went differently and the War dragged out over a much longer period. Missing out my character being in on The Battle For Helms Deep simply was not an option. I know it won't happen but I'd have loved it if we had the chance to join Theoden in his last stand mounted charge. Or having snuck out through the caves to then join the rescuers.

And as a marker for the future - I absolutely expect to be riding with the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields.

Now for wrath, now for ruin and a Red Dawn!

There is no way at all Turbine could not bend lore totally out of shape to bring us these moments.

[ColorSpecs]

You disagree that letting you fight a nightmare created by a gauntlord (our creations who primarily create nightmares and other nasty things that never happened) that looked like Durin's Bane but was your own fear and not Durin's bane and thus did not break the lore because you were, for all intents and purposes fighting a hallucination, didn't avoid breaking the lore restriction of not being able to fight a Balrog that was already dead while giving players what they specifically asked for, the ability to fight Durin's Bane?

If so, then it's pretty clear nothing I can say is going to matter.

Have you ever heard the term "Jump the Shark"? How about "Nuke the Fridge"?

I'm guessing no. But I would imagine those in charge of story development within LOTRO have. It has to do with Suspension of Disbelief and the ability as a storyteller to control this little tick in our audience's subconscious. "Nuke the Fridge" is an updated term for the same concept that is more appropriate to the discussion here.

This term refers to, as I'm sure many know, a scene in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull that has garnered quite a bit of infamy. In it, Dr. Jones ducks inside a refrigerator at the moment of a nuclear blast at a test facility and rides out the catastrophe inside. He is launched miles from the blast site only to open the door and walk out as casually as if he were exiting a Studebaker. The uproar over the incident was how ridiculous the feat was. It was so over the top it yanked everyone out of their suspension of disbelief and made the audience sigh a collective "nuh uh" at the screen and forever taint the entire film.

It was particularly noteworthy because of the subject matter of the character who lived through the event. This was a guy who had watched Nazi's faces being melted by a box said to contain the Ten Commandments. He'd seen someone's beating heart ripped out of his chest and stare at it in horror, still quite alive, and he came face to face with the Holy Grail, protected by a knight who had been alive for over one thousand years.

But riding out a shockwave in a Frigidaire? Nope, not possible.

There are, and I'm sure you and Turbine are aware of this term, diminishing returns, to our suspension of disbelief.

In LOTRO's terms, those diminishing returns seem to come into play on the most steepest of slopes when the story diverges the furthest from Tolkien's work. We don't seem to mind when we tell new tales based on things the Prof either glosses over or describes not at all, but it does become quarrelsome when its obvious the content designer is trying to shoehorn lore into his vision and he starts to mess with the nature of characters or import the aesthetic tone of other video games.

It's a difference between going to Angmar, which we know to be rubble and abandoned and fighting a some kind of demon-giant with glowing icicles for skin in Rohan. They are on far different positions on the slope, Sapience. Can you see the difference?

To tie it back together, the problem with fighting in Helm's Deep as you intend is its too far from the source material. Even a purest that I am, I got a thrill from seeing the elves arrive at Helm's Deep in Jackson's Two Towers, but to see hobbits and dwarves too, and wardens and rune-keepers? To have them arrive for the battle when in their timelines, if they're under level, they haven't even met Aragorn yet in some cases...

Its akin to the tentpole moment of Moria, the Fellowship's battle with the Balrog. Did Turbine allow us to join in on that fight? No. The Balrog was dead by the time we got there. We did get to eventually fight the balrog, but it was a dream. And yes, Sapience, that is a far preferable way to have done it because having us join in Gandalf's fight would have run contrary to the source material.

Helm's Deep is the same thing. Of course I want to see that battle and would love to participate in it, but not at the expense of the lore. I play this game because it's LOTR, not because it's Turbine.

[staveisle]

Hopefully this post is a herald of information finally being released about the upcoming expansion very soon.

Indeed. Much enjoyed this revealing of the process and approach. I think more of this would help.

[Kongas]

Helm's Deep is the same thing. Of course I want to see that battle and would love to participate in it, but not at the expense of the lore. I play this game because it's LOTR, not because it's Turbine.

I respect your position but, and I ask this with absolutely no snark intended, how come you are still adventuring in this Middle Earth of Rune-Keepers, Lore-Masters, adventuring hobbits, dwarf-occupied Moria, elf/dwarf/hobbit thanes, enemy occupied Bree whose thousands of leagues we traipse back and forth over at near-light speeds etc etc etc?

Lore got trampled under the feet of fun's hooves a long time ago in ways just as egregious as this if not more so.

Combat is at the heart of this game and there's no way at all Turbine could not have included us in one of the three or four major set pieces. In many ways a dozen or so 'outsiders' fighting alongside the Rohhirim in a Big Battle instance is little more than a broken finger on the body of lore dragging itself along on its one good arm, broken legs trailing uselessly behind.

[ColorSpecs]

I respect your position but, and I ask this with absolutely no snark intended, how come you are still adventuring in this Middle Earth of Rune-Keepers, Lore-Masters, adventuring hobbits, dwarf-occupied Moria, elf/dwarf/hobbit thanes, enemy occupied Bree whose thousands of leagues we traipse back and forth over at near-light speeds etc etc etc?

Its not about lore-breaking, its about jumping the shark.

I am willing to look over certain things to accomplish my goal of enjoying the game. But I have limits. My limits are when the game takes too much artistic license with the source material. I recognize that certain changes must be allowed for the game to fundamentally exist. But I deplore bad storytelling and hate the conceit that the content designers appear to feel they know better than Tolkien when they are "improving" on his work.

My concern about Helm's Deep is actually less than other areas. I would fight in Helm's Deep next to Wookies and Harry Potter if it meant Turbine would abolish Instance Join and redo Wildermore. But if we keep chipping away at the lore here and there, eventually its going to be unrecognizable. And I firmly believe that without the IP, the game has nothing to offer anymore.

[Supergrunt8]

I consider The Lord of the Rings Online a parallel universe to the one in The Lord of the Rings. In fact, every person playing the game creates a different parallel universe as we each experience our own, unique, internal dialog while playing. These universes have much in common with the books, but also many notable differences. In my opinion, the game universe remains reasonably true to the source material. Where they diverge, I feel the The Lord or the Rings Online stands upon its own merits. In other words, I think this game tells a good, alternate version of the story.

Well thats one way to look at it.

[Kongas]

Its not about lore-breaking, its about jumping the shark.

I am willing to look over certain things to accomplish my goal of enjoying the game. But I have limits. My limits are when the game takes too much artistic license with the source material. I recognize that certain changes must be allowed for the game to fundamentally exist. But I deplore bad storytelling and hate the conceit that the content designers appear to feel they know better than Tolkien when they are "improving" on his work.

My concern about Helm's Deep is actually less than other areas. I would fight in Helm's Deep next to Wookies and Harry Potter if it meant Turbine would abolish Instance Join and redo Wildermore. But if we keep chipping away at the lore here and there, eventually its going to be unrecognizable. And I firmly believe that without the IP, the game has nothing to offer anymore.

Compared to the fish that this particular Fonzie has jumped in the last few years this seems more like a mackeral than a shark to me.

[ColorSpecs]

Compared to the fish that this particular Fonzie has jumped in the last few years this seems more like a mackeral than a shark to me.

Yes, but where does it end? 5 years ago there was considerable concern about fighting a balrog in Angmar. Turbine themselves treaded very lightly here and were careful to explain that their story did not impinge on Tolkien's. Now they seem to lore-break with abandon, not even bothering to try frame it in such a way that was at least somewhat lore-appropriate. Eventually it will no longer resemble its source material.

[Vincent_Price]

Yes, but where does it end? 5 years ago there was considerable concern about fighting a balrog in Angmar. Turbine themselves treaded very lightly here and were careful to explain that their story did not impinge on Tolkien's. Now they seem to lore-break with abandon, not even bothering to try frame it in such a way that was at least somewhat lore-appropriate. Eventually it will no longer resemble its source material.

How do you know that "they did not even bother to try and frame it in such a way that it is somewhat lore-appropriate"?
Not that they finally didn't manage to do it lore-appropriate, but "didn't even bother"? As if they didn't care?

Seems to me like your a BIT negative there and judging content by the bookbinding (not even the cover).

[Kongas]

Yes, but where does it end? 5 years ago there was considerable concern about fighting a balrog in Angmar. Turbine themselves treaded very lightly here and were careful to explain that their story did not impinge on Tolkien's. Now they seem to lore-break with abandon, not even bothering to try frame it in such a way that was at least somewhat lore-appropriate. Eventually it will no longer resemble its source material.

I appreciate your position but I think that dog stopped hunting a long time ago. There's nothing lore appropriate about whole swathes of the game from adventuring hobbits to all the Saruman shennanigans. It won't stop until we're clearing Frodo's path up to the Crack of Doom of orcs, trolls, goblins and balrogs before dashing off the slaughter the squadrons of dragons about to launch and eat the eagles for breakfast.

It's a game and one that needs to turn a profit. Sadly I think you're in for a lot more piscine leaping.

[Radbug]

I am willing to look over certain things to accomplish my goal of enjoying the game. But I have limits. My limits are when the game takes too much artistic license with the source material. I recognize that certain changes must be allowed for the game to fundamentally exist. But I deplore bad storytelling and hate the conceit that the content designers appear to feel they know better than Tolkien when they are "improving" on his work.

**snipped for relevance, emphasis mine**

I respect your position and I admire your passion (and I don't entirely disagree) but your first two sentences highlight the fatal flaw in this line of reasoning. It's entirely subjective. As has already been pointed out, the lore has been compromised already in order for us to have a playable MMO. Multiple times. So where do we draw the line? You know where yours is, I sure know where mine is; I'm sure there are a whole bunch of others who also have their limits on what is lore-breaking or acceptable. How on Earth can the development team reconcile these disparate opinions? What you're willing to overlook might be a deal-breaker for another player and visa versa.

To exclude characters which have had so much time invested in them would have, in my opinion, been the absolutely most damaging decision the design team could have taken. Yes it tramples on the lore to a degree. But so does our characters talking to Elrond, Gandalf, Galadrial et al, leaving their home territories, etc, etc.

I really fail to see what other option the team could have taken. Anything else would have been even more unpopular judging by the forum traffic.

YMMV

[ColorSpecs]

How do you know that "they did not even bother to try and frame it in such a way that it is somewhat lore-appropriate"? Not that they finally didn't manage to do it lore-appropriate, but "didn't even bother"? As if they didn't care?

Isn't that obvious? When their community manager comes on in defence of the lore accusations and says (I paraphrase), "Well, logging in is breaking the lore so deal with it" then I'm pretty sure they are not bothering to try and frame it in a lore appropriate way.

I appreciate your position but I think that dog stopped hunting a long time ago. There's nothing lore appropriate about whole swathes of the game from adventuring hobbits to all the Saruman shennanigans.

I think in order for you to appreciate my position, you would need to understand the concept of diminishing returns as it applies to suspension of disbelief.

[ThomasTyndan]

You disagree that letting you fight a nightmare created by a gauntlord (our creations who primarily create nightmares and other nasty things that never happened) that looked like Durin's Bane but was your own fear and not Durin's bane and thus did not break the lore because you were, for all intents and purposes fighting a hallucination, didn't avoid breaking the lore restriction of not being able to fight a Balrog that was already dead while giving players what they specifically asked for, the ability to fight Durin's Bane?

This was such a great response. I for one, being both a fan of the Lore, and also someone who wants to see it kept, am glad that I got to fight the Balrog. And it was done in a much better way than EA's Third Age game (based on the movies) I love that game, but it had you fighting next to Gandalf on the Bridge... very silly and VERY Lore breaking.

It also had the dumbest end game fight, where you ended up fighting the giant flaming Eye of Sauron on some of the tower... ugh.

Of course even with those Lore-breaks I still really enjoyed the game. Same thing will always be true of LOTRO I'm always amazed at how much effort is placed into making the game Lore-appropriate while maintaining the balance of it being a fun game.

[Kongas]

Isn't that obvious? When their community manager comes on in defence of the lore accusations and says (I paraphrase), "Well, logging in is breaking the lore so deal with it" then I'm pretty sure they are not bothering to try and frame it in a lore appropriate way.



I think in order for you to appreciate my position, you would need to understand the concept of diminishing returns as it applies to suspension of disbelief.

Okay, now you're becoming patronising. Bye.