Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Farothhen]

Wow, after reading the first pages, I'll join the server on November 19th and meet - nobody?!

It seems that Turbine did a great job: They removed all the rest of the needed brain power to play this game. Funniest thing of all times was the XP during crafting ..eehh I mean doing NOTHING but pressing ONE button and watch your character doing some stuff, but this expansion will - as I can say for now - make me leave for another few months. I'm sure that I'll test it, but only because I've a LTA.

I ask myself if this is the aspiration the devs have or why does this game become a casual/trash game!?

Damn, I hope not all things become reality what I've just read here. At least I'll give you a chance, perhaps the last one.

[Andthelion]

Well maybe champ needed to be toned down then. Not easy to hear but it's happened in the past (and without trait trees).

So first off you say that classes now have more options, when I point out that isnt the case they now needed toning down?

Make your mind up, you cant have it both ways.

If we needed toning down before and these changes have given us more options as you claim shouldnt that make us more op?

And I dont see how they can tone us down from our apparently previous OP state by giving us more options to play with.

Its one or the other.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Could you please list ten positive changes from/for minstrels and 5 examples of consensus fedback being implemented. Or point to more than 2 pieces of short general feedback from our dev? or have i been in the wrong class beta threads since beta 1.....

Actually i guess you can't because the nda specifically prevent us and you, from showing to people all the hard work we put in tryinhg to fix this mess. All the great ideas. All the data. All the bug reports.

Specifics are more important to me than sweeping generalities about 'listening'. I say it again. some devs did-those classes are playable . some haven't and won't-guess which by the reactions

Oh and while i'm ranting IS THERE ANY REASON FOR EVERY CLASS GUIDE I'VE SEEN SO FAR HAVING A MALE CHARACTER IMAGE?- Your handpicked team sems to think female characters don't exist in this game. Shame on you Sapience. That should never have got by you!!

From reading through the minstrel thread quickly, it seems as if the minstrel dev didn't start working on it until the start of beta, and before it'd been a random pick and mix of skills to retain. Though that may have something to do with Egg originally being a guard dev, and then perhaps getting moved to mini later on? Though I am very glad that guards got Verizal as our dev.

[Wanderv]

So first off you say that classes now have more options, when I point out that isnt the case they now needed toning down?

Make your mind up, you cant have it both ways.

If we needed toning down before and these changes have given us more options as you claim shouldnt that make us more op?

And I dont see how they can tone us down from our apparently previous OP state by giving us more options to play with.

Its one or the other.

Try to think not rant. Classes now have more options but at the same time they are somewhat nerfed (comparing with live) because you can't have all skills simultaneously due to spec selection.

[Andthelion]

Wow, after reading the first pages, I'll join the server on November 19th and meet - nobody?!

It seems that Turbine did a great job: They removed all the rest of the needed brain power to play this game. Funniest thing of all times was the XP during crafting ..eehh I mean doing NOTHING but pressing ONE button and watch your character doing some stuff, but this expansion will - as I can say for now - make me leave for another few months. I'm sure that I'll test it, but only because I've a LTA.

I ask myself if this is the aspiration the devs have or why does this game become a casual/trash game!?

Damn, I hope not all things become reality what I've just read here. At least I'll give you a chance, perhaps the last one.

Dont let doomsayers like me sway your opinion just yet

All I can say is I do not like the changes, I would never suggest that other players would feel the same. Best plan of action is to obtain a beta key or wait till open beta and check it out for yourself before buying it, the changes are very significant and you really need to go try them yourself before parting with your hard earned cash, go in with an open mind and see what you feel, I truly hope you like them.

[Andthelion]

Try to think not rant. Classes now have more options but at the same time they are somewhat nerfed (comparing with live) because you can't have all skills simultaneously due to spec selection.

explain these extra options to me, please.

[rctman]

On a slightly different note, it turns out that the Bards' Guild apparently owns the copyrights and patents for re-working one's traits. You can indeed re-spec while out of combat, but if you want a complete do-over (as opposed to switching to a previously saved build) to reset and start from scratch after filling in your build tabs, you still must pay the piper. Never fear, the same technology that allows you to telekineticly loot mobs from a safe distance has been leveraged to debit you for any royalties owed to the guild, so there's no need to head back to The P0wny.

[Wanderv]

explain these extra options to me, please.

More talents => more options. The whole sum of skills is bigger than on live => more skills => more options.

[Jeffor]

I realize it's in the interest of some people who like class changes to make it look like there's this big stalemate with roughly even numbers of people who are for and against them. Yes, opinions on them varies, which aspect in life doesn't. But people coming here reading this thread should make no mistake - there is CLEAR MAJORITY of beta players who don't like or hate the changes. And there's data to support it.

There is player made poll currently on beta for current build, very specifically asking to rate class changes with 6 options, from Love to Dread, eliminating possible double votes etc. It involves few hundred unique voters and is in general discussion. Believe it or not, 100-300 is statistically significant sample for limited amount of players testing LOTRO closed Beta. Polls with 3x bigger sample tell u who's gona win the elections in the free world.

Can't go into specifics as in not to copy, but voters who Love changes can literally be counted on fingers of one hand. Roughly 1/5 Like the changes and just the same amount is in the middle in next 2 options. The last 2 ratings - poor and dread gather clearly more than Obama popular vote in 2008. What's more, of these 2 options, 2x more decides to pick dread.

These are facts. No matter what your opinion in the end will be, you have to keep in mind that proponents of this as of right now speak from the viewpoint of MINORITY and if lotro beta players had their say, there would be no class changes as they are now coming to live.

Please don't bring up the polls that mean nothing. You can have a sample of 10,000 but if they are not chosen at random (which these were not) then the sample is biased and the data suspect period. Internet polls are done using a voluntary response method which never, ever accurately represents a population. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible.

[Jeffor]

So first off you say that classes now have more options, when I point out that isnt the case they now needed toning down?

Make your mind up, you cant have it both ways.

If we needed toning down before and these changes have given us more options as you claim shouldnt that make us more op?

And I dont see how they can tone us down from our apparently previous OP state by giving us more options to play with.

Its one or the other.

Guardian does have more choices so I was correct. Champs are a different class and maybe they needed to be toned down. Like I said it's happened in the past and without trait trees.

[Wanderv]

Guardian does have more choices so I was correct. Champs are a different class and maybe they needed to be toned down. Like I said it's happened in the past and without trait trees.

Yeah, i can't remember a single nerf since f2p. But in SoA and MoM times nerfs were not so rare.

[Beaniemooch]

Yes they are. What a silly comment.

your dps ones are thats true, but you dont need heals, tanking or cc

Yes the mobs strict paths that they follow but other instances and raids have had similar mechanics and I find it hard to believe that these spaces will never require these roles. Has it been specifically stated that group EB will never use heals? I don't remember that.

This is the main problem I have with big battles as a minstrel, other than the fact that my class is a heartbreaking mess. You don't need a healer in there at all. No, it's never been specifically stated you don't but nobody has taken damage that I've seen in either solo or groups. As a minstrel I can't heal the NPCs who do take damage - I've tried. My fellows don't take damage - let's go back to the vid of the guardian auto-attacking mobs. So I'm left with a dps role only? I now have to compete in GLFF with groups "1/X for BBs, looking for dps classes"? Because even assuming we get a bump in dps I have to complete with a champ/RK/hunter/guard where I'll never have the dps they do. If I wanted to dps in raids I wouldn't be a minstrel.

As to whether or not big battles will "never require these roles" of heals, tanking or cc - if they don't now why would they later? Tell me you could do without healers and tanks in Rift, DN, Watcher, OD, ToO.... welcome to HD, all you need is dps.

I was told like many others I don't like change and why wasn't I glad things were more "challenging" now. To me challenge comes from content itself, not taking away half of my skills and saying "why are you complaining, you said it was too easy". And yet if you think stats are stacked to where we're OP now, wait til you hit 95. I was chatting with another beta player who has a guard and they said they were seeing guards with 30-40k health, people are talking hunters with 4-5k agility - why? There is nothing out there that needs us to be twice as powerful for half the challenge.

[Atheling]

More talents => more options. The whole sum of skills is bigger than on live => more skills => more options.

Maybe for some classes, for those I played in beta don't think that's true. But, in general, reducing hybid viability tends to close off options by hammering classes into certain roles. Skills are gated deep enough, by design, to require significant investment into specific trait trees which further locks you into a specific role. Sure out of combat, I can respec. I can do that anyways now - if Turbine had chosen to, they could have provided me with the option to do that without needing a bard with the existing system. The trade-off is moar dps!, moar heals!, moar... hmm the third role for many classes is kind of 'what's left of your skills stripped out from elsewhere'. What it does implement is better controls on class balance albeit at a loss to a lot of situational decision making during combat on the part of a number of classes. That too seems to be partly by design, there's probably a good argument that part of the class balance involved some classes having much more influential decisions to make than maybe they should have done. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of criticism, there's also some good things within HD. The best advice remains for everyone to try and see. There'll be changes between now and live, and hopefully some of them will result in something even more can live with. Whether it addresses the question of 'what use is providing these 3 roles when all I do is dps?' I'd be less hopeful about. (Edit: Just seen Beanie's post, bit stronger than I'd phrase it but true from what I've experienced in beta too).

[Jeffor]

Yeah, i can't remember a single nerf since f2p. But in SoA and MoM times nerfs were not so rare.

A lot of what people are complaining about probably would have happened with trait trees or not.

[Beaniemooch]

Please don't bring up the polls that mean nothing. You can have a sample of 10,000 but if they are not chosen at random (which these were not) then the sample is biased and the data suspect period. Internet polls are done using a voluntary response method which never, ever accurately represents a population. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible.

This was another thing that was consistent in beta. "The poll threads mean nothing because the data is skewed." I would disagree here, because everybody had the same opportunity in beta to voice their opinion. The devs posted polls we could take - how were they less skewed? Nobody forced me to take one of those either yet they're valid and the overwhelming negative reaction to the player input is not apparently.

All polls in beta - whether player thread or posted poll - was a voluntary response method. Nobody forced me to take one, it wasn't there in-game saying "you can't log out til you do this". In fact, the majority of beta players weren't chosen by Turbine, they joined from Facebook based on what I saw and heard. Does that make it any more or less valid?

I've been in prior betas before. But the attitude of "I reject your reality and substitute my own" was far more prevalent in this one.

[Jeffor]

This is the main problem I have with big battles as a minstrel, other than the fact that my class is a heartbreaking mess. You don't need a healer in there at all. No, it's never been specifically stated you don't but nobody has taken damage that I've seen in either solo or groups. As a minstrel I can't heal the NPCs who do take damage - I've tried. My fellows don't take damage - let's go back to the vid of the guardian auto-attacking mobs. So I'm left with a dps role only? I now have to compete in GLFF with groups "1/X for BBs, looking for dps classes"? Because even assuming we get a bump in dps I have to complete with a champ/RK/hunter/guard where I'll never have the dps they do. If I wanted to dps in raids I wouldn't be a minstrel.

Tell me you could do without healers and tanks in Rift, DN, Watcher, OD, ToO.... welcome to HD, all you need is dps.

I was told like many others I don't like change and why wasn't I glad things were more "challenging" now. To me challenge comes from content itself, not taking away half of my skills and saying "why are you complaining, you said it was too easy". And yet if you think stats are stacked to where we're OP now, wait til you hit 95. I was chatting with another beta player who has a guard and they said they were seeing guards with 30-40k health, people are talking hunters with 4-5k agility - why? There is nothing out there that needs us to be twice as powerful for half the challenge.

Well EB are still a work in progress so these discussions are largely moot. Much will change because the system is brand new; however, if you really actually believe that Turbine is just making changes willy-nilly with no plan then I don't know what to tell you. Do you really think that they would create 3-, 6- and 12-man spaces if they didn't want groups to have some challenging fun? Why even put them in there if that's the case?

[furtim]

Please don't bring up the polls that mean nothing. You can have a sample of 10,000 but if they are not chosen at random (which these were not) then the sample is biased and the data suspect period. Internet polls are done using a voluntary response method which never, ever accurately represents a population. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible.

Obligatory Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Selection bias is actually one of the most difficult kinds of bias to control for, but it can have a really big effect on results.

Polls are really, really hard to conduct with any kind of accuracy. Even the professionals get it wrong sometimes.

[Runesi_EU]

So here is my take on the class changes (I fully expect the player council shill or whatever other label is coming my way).

During the first round of beta I did not like what had happened to the classes I play at all, they felt wrong, didn't play as they do on live and in the case of the RK felt like a completely different class. The first couple of rounds of beta were mostly about bug fixing, it wasn't until beta 3 we started to see changes and the rebalancing of some of the trees. With the most recent round of beta I am happier with my classes, they are still different than on live but not so different as to be unrecognisable. My RK for example can specialise for lightning damage (single target) fire damage (aoe) or healing much like it can now on live, can I do decent aoe whilst specced for lightning damage? No not really. Can I heal a group whilst specialised for fire damage? Again, no, not really, maybe some easy three man. But shouldn't classes specialise to a certain degree? Didn't you pick your champ to do significant melee damage with the option to tank? You still can.

Am I happy with the changes? Honestly? Not 100%, it's going to take some getting used to, playing my RK recently I certainly don't use all of my skills all of the time but I do miss some of them when I play beta. However there hasn't really been much class progression since Moria, a few new skills or upgraded skills but nothing that significant or anything really to aim for. As we approach level 100 simply adding more and more skills was never going to be viable. This new system adds the potential for more noticeable progression as we level up and I'm happy with that. I think for any new player coming into LotRO this is a good change, they will see obvious class progression right from level 1 through to 95. For us veterans it's more difficult, we actually have to go through some class regression first and that is difficult to take but I do believe this change can actually extend the life of the game by making levelling mean something other than increased stats again.

Now do I believe the trees are perfect? No, and I don't believe they will be when they go live. I think once the numbers start rolling in and devs start to get more feedback and data after release that trees will continue to develop and evolve for a good while after we go live.

[Jeffor]

This was another thing that was consistent in beta. "The poll threads mean nothing because the data is skewed." I would disagree here, because everybody had the same opportunity in beta to voice their opinion. The devs posted polls we could take - how were they less skewed? Nobody forced me to take one of those either yet they're valid and the overwhelming negative reaction to the player input is not apparently.

All polls in beta - whether player thread or posted poll - was a voluntary response method. Nobody forced me to take one, it wasn't there in-game saying "you can't log out til you do this". In fact, the majority of beta players weren't chosen by Turbine, they joined from Facebook based on what I saw and heard. Does that make it any more or less valid?

I've been in prior betas before. But the attitude of "I reject your reality and substitute my own" was far more prevalent in this one.

You don't understand what I am saying. Just because "everyone had a chance to respond" doesn't mean the sample was random. Everyone has an equal opportunity to answer polls on news sites like Fox News and MSNBC. Does that mean the results accurately reflect the population? Absolutely not. The Turbine polls are most certainly not representative either. You can use these tools see how certain people feel but you cannot take the results and say that they represent an entire population. The rules of statistics state this very clearly.

[Atheling]

Obligatory Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Selection bias is actually one of the most difficult kinds of bias to control for, but it can have a really big effect on results.

Polls are really, really hard to conduct with any kind of accuracy. Even the professionals get it wrong sometimes.

That's true. But the idea that there was a 'vocal minority' which stampeded Turbine into making such massive changes (for many classes, I know Calta, I know..) that it's being trumpeted as listening to the community is clearly nonsense. I wish it would stop. Everyone should have the same aim of making the game better. Not attempting to score debating points or play mini-mod or amateur psychologist. It was tedious to see the main forum attitude which pushes many away here carried over into beta.

[Beaniemooch]

Well EB are still a work in progress so these discussions are largely moot. Much will change because the system is brand new; however, if you really actually believe that Turbine is just making changes willy-nilly with no plan then I don't know what to tell you. Do you really think that they would create 3-, 6- and 12-man spaces if they didn't want groups to have some challenging fun? Why even put them in there if that's the case?

Why indeed. I can tell you at least the solo, 3 and 6 man content wasn't fun for me. The challenge was in figuring out wth I'm supposed to do on a minstrel since I didn't want to join a Clickers of Thangulhad skirmish but that's what it feels like.

[Chunky_baby]

I do not understand this ragestorm. Obviously people didn't play (or forgot) at beloved good ole' days of SoA, which so many people love. How many times classes were nerfed? My hunter at least twice. How many skills we had? Less than in HD beta.

I don't even know how to answer this...

SOA allowed a lot more flexibility in combat, and was pivitol for the success of many instances, groupings, landscape mobs and raids. Now, you can't.

Nerfs happened, sure - I play a champ - I witnessed huge swings on that. This... is like the nuclear option.

If you just want to gaily swing about landscape, then yes - this doesn't affect you really - in terms of difficulty. EB - well... they aren't really Skirmishes OR Raids, that much was true. We don't need flexibility for those because it's been designed out.

I can only assume you were happy pew pewing away and never needed once to change stance mid combat - if you did, I just don't understand why you aren't unhappy with this? That wasn't a mockery by the way, I'm genuinely curious.

[Crell_1]

So here is my take on the class changes (I fully expect the player council shill or whatever other label is coming my way).

Am I happy with the changes? Honestly? Not 100%,

What number would you be comfortable putting there for the classes you play?

[Jeffor]

That's true. But the idea that there was a 'vocal minority' which stampeded Turbine into making such massive changes (for many classes, I know Calta, I know..) that it's being trumpeted as listening to the community is clearly nonsense. I wish it would stop. Everyone should have the same aim of making the game better. Not attempting to score debating points or play mini-mod or amateur psychologist.

Turbine has listened to the players though. They have made many changes per our suggestions and have said that they gave the two-point penalty and such a lot of hard thought. The vocal minority goes both ways. All forum goers (myself included) are a vocal minority. I also want the game to be the best it can be and it feels like you are suggesting that I don't because I don't agree with you. Wanting to make the game better does not hinge on everyone absolutely agreeing on everything all of the time. That would never happen trait trees or not.

[Andthelion]

More talents => more options. The whole sum of skills is bigger than on live => more skills => more options.

How can it be more if I can only have between 20 and 30 skills on my bar at any time?

How can it be more if I can only choose certain traits? If I choose to spec red even just a 1/4 of the way I have lost traits elsewhere that I cannot access, when on live I can choose from them all.

We dont have more skills on beta than on live at best it the same most classes have less, and then at least 10 are then gated when you choose your spec.

I dont have more talents , as a champ I still have just the 3, single target dps, aoe or tank. On my RK I still just have the 3, Heals, Fire Lightning. Explain to me how that has changed? The only difference now is that once I choose one of these "talents" I instantly forget the ability to do all in another talent, on live I could still use ALL my skills ALL of the time, no matter how I traited, Explain to me how that means I now have more options again please.

Once again someone has made this ludicrous statement that they have more options and failed tragically in proving that.