Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Beaniemooch]

oh please its still not a issue cause the materials are so easy to get they gotta make people log in somehow the game can't be easy at every turn

well i always make rep items ahead time way before they announced when the next xpac is comming out

So basically because it doesn't affect you it's not a big deal.

And the fact that Turbine "gotta make people log in somehow" is discouraging. Shouldn't we log in because of fun and interesting game play, not due to punishing players by reducing the value of patterns?

They tried that with Hobbit slot machines too and that didn't work as an incentive for anybody I know of. Especially me.

[Findulas]

Interesting. Did you lose them in the past week?? I ask because you make it sound like they left because of the changes. I just like to clarify.



I'd suggest getting a second Cappy if you're having that much trouble with the raid. Or let the cappy see what else he can do in that situation.

I was going to reply with something really snarky and then I went outside and realized it wasn't worth it. You missed my point totally and completely, but that's okay, lots of other people got it. Have a wonderful day.

Hey man, Kin Leader of Ramble On here, and I feel for you. We have lost over 75% of our kin. From raiding to 3 times a week, to raiding maybe once a week. But hey, everything is ok, you can still play this game solo.......................... ...

Thank you, I understand completely, but if I want to play a RPG I'll go back to Tomb Raider or Dragon Age. Oh wait, I can just wait a little while then LoTRO will be a RPG, I see what you're getting at there.

[Lohi]

They still won't be the same characters.

True. But by your reasoning this has already happened several times in the past in this game. They removed/renamed/rearranged skills, they've make changes that meant you had to relearn how to play the class, etc. The problem today is that this is larger, and applies to all characters.

(ie, if it was just warden and minstrel as in RoI then you'd hear players of other classes claiming that it's not a big deal and learn to deal with it; but because it's all characters at the same time we have all players at least noticing that things are changing)

[Bendin]

True. But by your reasoning this has already happened several times in the past in this game. They removed/renamed/rearranged skills, they've make changes that meant you had to relearn how to play the class, etc. The problem today is that this is larger, and applies to all characters.

(ie, if it was just warden and minstrel as in RoI then you'd hear players of other classes claiming that it's not a big deal and learn to deal with it; but because it's all characters at the same time we have all players at least noticing that things are changing)

oh no, I never downplayed the yoyo they experienced, I kept my head down and watch with dread hoping they stay distracted with the shiny. Some of us were selfish enough to just be glad they were screwing around with them not us...sorry about that

[Dworin]

True. But by your reasoning this has already happened several times in the past in this game. They removed/renamed/rearranged skills, they've make changes that meant you had to relearn how to play the class, etc. The problem today is that this is larger, and applies to all characters.

(ie, if it was just warden and minstrel as in RoI then you'd hear players of other classes claiming that it's not a big deal and learn to deal with it; but because it's all characters at the same time we have all players at least noticing that things are changing)

Unfortunately this is not some tweaking or the like; this is akin to waking up after major surgery and discovering that you can no longer do certain things, and you have to learn again.

Some will adapt. Some will quit. I plan to do the best I can but if it turns out to not be fun, then....

I have a lot of negatives and few positives. But we'll see.

[gardavil]

You can only swap traits/builds out of combat. You need to make sure you're in the correct build for the battle ahead of time. There will be no more champs stepping in to tank in the last few seconds of the fight if the tank goes down, no more captains saving the group with IHW/LS, no RK's switching over to heal if the minstrel goes down and so on depending on how each class is traited before they go into the battle so there is your choose early, before the combat starts. How you go into the fight is how it's going to go, period. Basically something like this:


Currently on live with my captain in a fellowship:

Group Leader: "Okay captain, we have three very large angry Uruks to get through before the boss fight.

I want you to put telling mark on the first Uruk, we'll burn him down about half-way then throw Oathbreakers on him to finish him off. Second Uruk I want revealing mark to help out the healer a bit to top us off. Loremaster is going to be busy debuffing and getting ready for adds, so throw songbrother on the healer to help with power. When the group is stabilized switch over to blade brother on the champ to help finish him off. If anyone goes down during this time pop a rez on them and make sure to get them buffed back up. If another goes down get another rez and buffs up, I want to save the minstrel rez for the third Uruk in case it gets the tank.

Third Uruk is going to be tricky, he gets to 1/4 health he's going to hit the tank like a freight train, I want shield brother on him to help heal him up and protect him. Also there will be adds coming, if any get by and head for the healer help the champ pull them off and dump them near the tank. Keep those off heals, to arms, Oathbreakers as soon as they are up, Last Stand/In Harms Way in the last twenty seconds as well as insurance and anything else you got and we should pull through this just fine."

Me: "Got it boss, not a problem."


New way as it stands currently on beta:

Group Leader: "Okay captain, we have three very large angry Uruks to get through before the boss fight.

I want you to put telling mark on the first Uruk, we'll burn him down about half-way then throw Oathbreakers on him to finish him off. Second Uruk I want revealing mark to help out the healer a bit to top us off. Loremaster is going to be busy debuffing and getting ready for adds, so throw songbrother on the healer to help with power. When the group is stabilized switch over to blade brother on the champ to help finish him off. If anyone goes down during this time pop a rez on them and make sure to get them buffed back up. If another goes down get another rez and buffs up, I want to save the minstrel rez for the third Uruk in case it gets the tank.

Third Uruk is going to be tricky, he gets to 1/4 health he's going to hit the tank like a freight train, I want shield brother on him to help heal him up and protect him. Also there will be adds coming, if any get by and head for the healer help the champ pull them off and dump them near the tank. Keep those off heals, to arms, Oathbreakers as soon as they are up, Last Stand/In Harms Way in the last twenty seconds as well as insurance and anything else you got and we should pull through this just fine."

Me: "Sorry can't do but about a third of that."

Group leader: "Seriously? *sigh*"

Yes I know that this is a hypothetical battle, but I'm just trying to illustrate how restrictive the trees actually are. The support classes that thrive on hybrid builds and having ALL of their skills at their disposal to be able to pull the group back from the brink of a wipe are gone with the wind. I'll miss my captain (my main) the most and my loremaster second most as those are the classes that will be the hardest hit with these changes (burglar too but I don't really play that class in a group much if at all) with the skills being gated and the out of spec point penalty. Hybrid builds are a possibility true, but they are mere shadow of what we are capable of on live right now. All skills not available all the time and so on.


Also something else to think about. We have currently lost about 35% of a thriving kinship (one of the oldest and well known on Arkenstone) over the past year/year and half. We used to do two runs during the week (mostly six man stuff), and Fri/Sat nights were the big twelve man runs a year ago. We now have to struggle to even get a three man going on a Fri/Sat night as the current member/officer base has dwindled so much. Last Friday night (one of our usually busiest nights we had a grand total of two officers and one member on) for example. We had fifteen officers just over a year ago, we are down to five now. The majority of our officers and members left because of RoR and said that they would not return (and they haven't), many of the remaining have stated that if Turbine does not get HD right they will leave as well.

Why did they leave? Many, many different reasons. They did not like the direction Turbine was taking the game, they did not like the fact that so much of the game that needed attention never have, never will get that attention, lack of end game content, the sheer amount of grinding (yes I know grinding is part of the MMO world, but 47 days of dailies to rebuild a town, then additional x amount of days to get armor for your main and alts? Twenty-seven days of dailies to get reputation with the SECOND half of the reputation system in a small add on to the game? Come on, I don't mind grinding to get what I want but wow.), and many, many other things that you can easily find on the forums nowadays and that never seem to get addressed.

Judging from the current changes and the direction that Turbine is going I fear that more will leave as well. Do I like the changes? No I don't, not in the least bit. Did I give them a chance? Yes, and provided feedback and was a good beta tester and did what I could. Can I get used to them? Sure I can, I've gotten used to many, many changes over the years, but nothing this drastic all at once. The frog in the water analogy that someone posted comes to mind here.

The community is to me what takes this game from good to great. I have so many fond memories (the first time in the Foundry when our resident RK went running ahead of the tank around a corner and discovering a pile of mobs waiting on him to which he promptly dragged back to the group shouting some colorful language is one of my favorites, oh the stories I could tell). When the community that I've played with for so many years has slowly trickled away (and more will go, I'm sure of this) then I lose one of the major reasons for staying with the game, sure I'm a LoTRO fanatic and I'm in this until Turbine pulls the plug, but this does not mean that I have to spend any more money on the game (lifetimer), nor play anywhere near the amount of time that I usually do. I'll level up my little "family", get them all ready for the next thing and go play/do other things until the next thing comes out in LoTRO, rinse and repeat until the lights are shut off. Dang I'm going to miss this so much.

Thank You Findulas. I appreciate your view point in all this. I found your comments insightful and helpful. My main is a Guardian, my second is RK, third a Hunter.... and I am worried in different ways for all the classes. Somehow I survived all the changes in this MMO through the years and now these new changes.... well some comments don't need to be repeated. Everyone has used every adjective imaginable to describe HD and I get the impression those words don't truly describe what we are about to experience ingame in a few days time. I can also say our Kin has lost most of it's Members as well, for many of the same reasons you listed. HD may hit us (the community) as hard as the Orcs hit Helm's Deep itself in their Assault. A shame we could've saved that part for ingame.

I also wanted to say thank you for your forum name.... good memories your name brought to mind. A good friend of mine (of our Kin) used that name for her main character years ago, a friend that left LotRO due to real life problems and she is greatly missed in our Kin on Elendilmir. Just seeing someone else carry on the name brought a tear to my eye, and not an evil one either. Take Care.

[Bendin]

Thank You Findulas. I appreciate your view point in all this. I found your comments insightful and helpful. My main is a Guardian, my second is RK, third a Hunter.... and I am worried in different ways for all the classes. Somehow I survived all the changes in this MMO through the years and now these new changes.... well some comments don't need to be repeated. Everyone has used every adjective imaginable to describe HD and I get the impression those words don't truly describe what we are about to experience ingame in a few days time. I can also say our Kin has lost most of it's Members as well, for many of the same reasons you listed. HD may hit us (the community) as hard as the Orcs hit Helm's Deep itself in their Assault. A shame we could've saved that part for ingame.

I also wanted to say thank you for your forum name.... good memories your name brought to mind. A good friend of mine (of our Kin) used that name for her main character years ago, a friend that left LotRO due to real life problems and she is greatly missed in our Kin on Elendilmir. Just seeing someone else carry on the name brought a tear to my eye, and not an evil one either. Take Care.

The guard you may still be happy with. Some have been anyway. It's probably the 2nd least drastic of the batch(too much for me but some are coping). Particular if you preferred the OP line. Tank lines and the content for it, well least said about that the better. The hunter seems to be in an ok spot from external appearances(I don't play one nor tested). The RK...well depends what you do on your rk on live.

[Kongas]

That approach to longevity, personal investment, and ownership might explain why modern mmos cant go 2 months post launch without bleeding subs. One reason I've never understood Turbines recent trend to be hell bent on chasing the "mainstream". Drive by gaming doesn't seem to me to be the most profitable venue judging by the state of the titles on offer.

EDIT I mean think about it Skyrim, GTA V neted more profit in a couple of days/weeks than modern mmo's do in a quarter or even the whole fiscal year. Mmo's NEED a hook to keep people paying(either sub or store). One of the biggest hooks is longevity and your player base becoming personally invested in the world. The less invested personally they are the easier it is to walk away no harm no foul. The counter point to that is if you use personal investment as part of your longevity strategy, one can't act surprised if there is blowback when you remove/fundamentally change the third pillar it rested on.

Quite. They want my money then they don't pull stunts like this. Destroy years of time and tons of money by replacing player's characters with a limited cartoon imitation and they will stop investing much time and will stop investing any more money.

[MaxDetroit]

New way as it stands currently on beta:

Group Leader: "Okay captain, we have three very large angry Uruks to get through before the boss fight.

I want you to put telling mark on the first Uruk, we'll burn him down about half-way then throw Oathbreakers on him to finish him off. Second Uruk I want revealing mark to help out the healer a bit to top us off. Loremaster is going to be busy debuffing and getting ready for adds, so throw songbrother on the healer to help with power. When the group is stabilized switch over to blade brother on the champ to help finish him off. If anyone goes down during this time pop a rez on them and make sure to get them buffed back up. If another goes down get another rez and buffs up, I want to save the minstrel rez for the third Uruk in case it gets the tank.

Third Uruk is going to be tricky, he gets to 1/4 health he's going to hit the tank like a freight train, I want shield brother on him to help heal him up and protect him. Also there will be adds coming, if any get by and head for the healer help the champ pull them off and dump them near the tank. Keep those off heals, to arms, Oathbreakers as soon as they are up, Last Stand/In Harms Way in the last twenty seconds as well as insurance and anything else you got and we should pull through this just fine."

Me: "Sorry can't do but about a third of that."

Group leader: "Seriously? *sigh*"

Yes I know that this is a hypothetical battle, but I'm just trying to illustrate how restrictive the trees actually are.

[...]

Yes, this is a hypothetical battle. And you want to know why?
Because there isn't any group content left where this would be necessary. This, to me, is the whole point.
If there would be any hard or challenging group content left in the game, I would be worried about the class trees. Since there isn't, why bother?

I strongly believe: every successful MMO needs something very challenging with the corresponding rewards on the end of the end of the endgame.
Where every player is challenged not only gear-wise but also the skill-set is checked to the max. Something maybe only 10% of the playerbase may complete.
Why? Because it's the motivation to get there, to be a top player on your server, just to show off that you and your kin are very good at this game.

The phrase "dumbing down the game" is something I heard very often in this thread.
For me, the idea behind trait trees is that every user should understand how to play, with a clear defined role, and the user should only get skills that are needed for that role, no more extra fancy stuff, that may confuse people.
And then there is not even content to play this role to the max, to master your class, just some metagames (called big battles).

But, this whole casual thing going around for years is not working out in my opinion. Even wow is declining because it's gotten to simple, to casual.
Just take a look at FF 14: ARR, it gives you a lot of possibilities to mix skills from other classes, the endgame is brutal, and people love it.

[Skippa]

Yes, this is a hypothetical battle. And you want to know why?
Because there isn't any group content left where this would be necessary. This, to me, is the whole point.
If there would be any hard or challenging group content left in the game, I would be worried about the class trees. Since there isn't, why bother?

I strongly believe: every successful MMO needs something very challenging with the corresponding rewards on the end of the end of the endgame.
Where every player is challenged not only gear-wise but also the skill-set is checked to the max. Something maybe only 10% of the playerbase may complete.
Why? Because it's the motivation to get there, to be a top player on your server, just to show off that you and your kin are very good at this game.

The phrase "dumbing down the game" is something I heard very often in this thread.
For me, the idea behind trait trees is that every user should understand how to play, with a clear defined role, and the user should only get skills that are needed for that role, no more extra fancy stuff, that may confuse people.
And then there is not even content to play this role to the max, to master your class, just some metagames (called big battles).

But, this whole casual thing going around for years is not working out in my opinion. Even wow is declining because it's gotten to simple, to casual.
Just take a look at FF 14: ARR, it gives you a lot of possibilities to mix skills from other classes, the endgame is brutal, and people love it.

Yea from what I hear they just broke 600k subscribers. Not too shabby considering the issues it had with the 1st launch, that's a pretty big hole to dig out of. I'm impressed. Too bad I dis-like the FF IP

[gardavil]

The guard you may still be happy with. Some have been anyway. It's probably the 2nd least drastic of the batch(too much for me but some are coping). Particular if you preferred the OP line. Tank lines and the content for it, well least said about that the better. The hunter seems to be in an ok spot from external appearances(I don't play one nor tested). The RK...well depends what you do on your rk on live.

I always run Sword and Board Tank, even when soloing. I love running a Guard that way. Only time I even use my Two Hander is while on warhorse. Looks like I better raise my shield and brace for Impact...

[Thorwyn99]

Yes, this is a hypothetical battle. And you want to know why?
Because there isn't any group content left where this would be necessary. This, to me, is the whole point.
If there would be any hard or challenging group content left in the game, I would be worried about the class trees. Since there isn't, why bother?

I strongly believe: every successful MMO needs something very challenging with the corresponding rewards on the end of the end of the endgame.
Where every player is challenged not only gear-wise but also the skill-set is checked to the max. Something maybe only 10% of the playerbase may complete.
Why? Because it's the motivation to get there, to be a top player on your server, just to show off that you and your kin are very good at this game.

The phrase "dumbing down the game" is something I heard very often in this thread.
For me, the idea behind trait trees is that every user should understand how to play, with a clear defined role, and the user should only get skills that are needed for that role, no more extra fancy stuff, that may confuse people.
And then there is not even content to play this role to the max, to master your class, just some metagames (called big battles).

But, this whole casual thing going around for years is not working out in my opinion. Even wow is declining because it's gotten to simple, to casual.
Just take a look at FF 14: ARR, it gives you a lot of possibilities to mix skills from other classes, the endgame is brutal, and people love it.

I dunno looking at the FF14 numbers i get a SWTOR deja vu.

[mr_toad]

I can only speak to the hunter class changes. Having tested them, I like them. Hunter changes may have to be revised and refined in future patches, but they're by no means a disaster and imo something for the better over the long term. I don't understand the complaints of "dumbing down." I have over 12 engaging skills I have to choose from in each line (counting the generic ones that are auto-granted for all hunters).

This is my personal theory: I don't mind the hunter changes as much as players of other classes because the hunter has never been a multi-purposed "super class" capable of things such as potent healing and damage at once. There are some people who will have a hard time (or will never) getting over the fact that their class may no longer be a "super class" any more. Welcome to the real world, sorry you had to come down to earth. Change is hard, but take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself are you upset because of the change or upset because your class is no longer OP? There are complaints on this thread that the posters may think are devastating criticism but really confirm that the class system is becoming more balanced and working-as-intended.

Like others have said, keep an open mind and try things out yourself. Give yourself some time to get used to things. If you hate it, take a break and come back after a major patch or two or three.

[Kongas]

I can only speak to the hunter class changes. Having tested them, I like them.

Like others have said, keep an open mind and try things out yourself. Give yourself some time to get used to things. If you hate it, take a break and come back after a major patch or two or three.

Yes, these changes have to be tried for yourself. I'm glad you still like your hunter, I really am. Mine ceases to exist come Nov 18th with the removal of active control over all my skills. To me it is 'dumbed down' and now too boring with its simple 3 or 4 button kill-all rotations, to be worth paying money to play.

But tastes, desires and expectations differ so much everyone will have to try it for themselves, no-one can do that for you.

What is my 'simplistic and dull' will be someone else's 'streamlined and fun'.

Just try it before buying it because you may be thrilled or you may be dumb-struck.

[Mysterion]

Is there going to be an open beta? I thought they usually opened it up to everyone for a little bit pre-release.

[Skippa]

Is there going to be an open beta? I thought they usually opened it up to everyone for a little bit pre-release.

They've gotten enough bad press already, won't happen.

[Mysterion]

They've gotten enough bad press already, won't happen.

"Any press is good press?"

I am not sure if people would calm down or be more upset if they actually got to try it. I guess it makes sense to just make them wait and find out on the 18th. One week away from release and the only thing that I can say with any certainty is that the forums should be interesting post release.

[Skippa]

"Any press is good press?"

I am not sure if people would calm down or be more upset if they actually got to try it. I guess it makes sense to just make them wait and find out on the 18th. One week away from release and the only thing that I can say with any certainty is that the forums should be interesting post release.

yea like you I don't think they are sure witch way it would blow either. I assume that's why this time around they didn't open it when the NDA dropped like normal. Bunker mentality.

[Andthelion]

"Any press is good press?"

I am not sure if people would calm down or be more upset if they actually got to try it. I guess it makes sense to just make them wait and find out on the 18th. One week away from release and the only thing that I can say with any certainty is that the forums should be interesting post release.

It is essentialy an open beta as anyone can go onto facebook and get a beta key, and this I would strongly urge people to do.

[Skippa]

It is essentialy an open beta as anyone can go onto facebook and get a beta key, and this I would strongly urge people to do.

Only if you "like" it from my understanding (I could be mistaken if so please correct me). Seems rather odd if so you have to click "like" just to find out if you like it. I'm not a facebook person so really don't know.

[Mysterion]

Only if you "like" it from my understanding (I could be mistaken if so please correct me). Seems rather odd if so you have to click "like" just to find out if you like it. I'm not a facebook person so really don't know.

It really doesn't mean much to like something on Facebook. I believe you can unlike it if you don't want it to show up in your profile. I just checked their page and can't find the link. It was my understanding that those were only open for a short period and currently unavailable. BTW I got my beta key from the first round of the "Like" to beta campaign.

[Oldin]

As I mentioned above, I've been doing end-game content for a while. Maybe I've had no right to, but for several years I've managed to skate by with a ~50-100 hour investment once a year, and ~5 hours a week the rest of the time (and much thanks to my friends who sometimes put in many more hours to cover for my lack of time). That is all the time I can really spare (and with a child on the way it is only going to get harder to spare any time). This last year however, this has changed. Dropping raid locks and putting more high end items behind 1% or lower RNG gates rather than behind difficulty gates has had a serious negative impact on my enjoyment and ability to stay competitive with my limited time availability. This is where the real negative for me has come from. This expansion's main changes are in a completely different dimension than what I would have been interested in. Epic battles are still at an early stage, and maybe they will have less horrible RNG, but early reports I have been reading in the forums have not been promising. I also don't look forward to the increase in the amount of LI legacy switching I'll have to do to make an LI which matches with my specialization.

For me too, the implementation of the new RNG system was really the killer. The actual raid/fellow/small fellow content was whatever...i know people who did and did not like it. The way the instances were run was what i took issue with. In my opinion there was nothing more demoralizing than grinding for an item knowing a)there was an extremely small chance you would get that item b)there was an extremely small chance that your friend would get their item c) Most important to me...there was no challenge/feeling of accomplishment associated with running the content when you didn't get your loot. I don't think a game can function with loot as the primary carrot, but I could be wrong.

Yes, these changes have to be tried for yourself. I'm glad you still like your hunter, I really am. Mine ceases to exist come Nov 18th with the removal of active control over all my skills. To me it is 'dumbed down' and now too boring with its simple 3 or 4 button kill-all rotations, to be worth paying money to play.

But tastes, desires and expectations differ so much everyone will have to try it for themselves, no-one can do that for you.

What is my 'simplistic and dull' will be someone else's 'streamlined and fun'.

Just try it before buying it because you may be thrilled or you may be dumb-struck.

I agree with your assessment, for the record. The hunter from an outsider perspective may seem in a good place i.e. it still does dps. However the days of putting thought into your rotations/traits are gone; no deciding where to fit your barbed arrow into your rotation. To me this is what is meant when people say your character won't be the same. The most meaningful decision you can now make on a hunter is a)roll my face kinda to the left b)Roll my face in a right-ish direction (I have yet to master the use of my chin in the rotation).

But hey, to each his own.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

This is my personal theory: I don't mind the hunter changes as much as players of other classes because the hunter has never been a multi-purposed "super class" capable of things such as potent healing and damage at once. There are some people who will have a hard time (or will never) getting over the fact that their class may no longer be a "super class" any more. Welcome to the real world, sorry you had to come down to earth. Change is hard, but take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself are you upset because of the change or upset because your class is no longer OP? There are complaints on this thread that the posters may think are devastating criticism but really confirm that the class system is becoming more balanced and working-as-intended.

You know, it will be interesting to lurk here in the forums and watch the story enfold once those that share your opinion here will come to realize that, no, healers do not enjoy being healbots.
It is extremely shortsighted to tell them that pressing 1, 2, 3 over and over again will work out to them being "more balanded". They made it their pride and enjoyment to keep buffs up and assist with damage et cetera, as the content (well, the zerg-fest that were most of the 85 scaled instance) demanded (if you even can call it that).
But hey, maybe people are going to enjoy spamming "95 Fornost Fire, 5/6, LF Heal" all day long.

SNy

[Beaniemooch]

You know, it will be interesting to lurk here in the forums and watch the story enfold once those that share your opinion here will come to realize that, no, healers do not enjoy being healbots.
It is extremely shortsighted to tell them that pressing 1, 2, 3 over and over again will work out to them being "more balanded". They made it their pride and enjoyment to keep buffs up and assist with damage et cetera, as the content (well, the zerg-fest that were most of the 85 scaled instance) demanded (if you even can call it that).
But hey, maybe people are going to enjoy spamming "95 Fornost Fire, 5/6, LF Heal" all day long.

SNy

Healers do not enjoy being 1-2-3 healbots and I've been complaining about that from the first release on Bull for HD. What did we get? More powerful heals. No, I'm not kidding. The other stances however are unbalanced and also not enjoyable so my main class of minstrel will be shelved as soon as she does the epic and levels to 95. All 3 of my minstrels who are at 85 will be shelved... I do have other level cap characters, I just don't enjoy them nearly as much so won't switch to them until maybe Turbine realizes they botched the minstrel and someday fix it. I'll just park and move on. Especially considering the only content we get is Big Battles, which I didn't enjoy at all on any of the tests I ran. I hate feeling unnecessary in end game content.

I have been trying out EQII with a friend and I'm liking it. I have a level 15, almost 16, high elf wizard that I'm having fun with (feels similar to the lore master here). The mechanics are interesting, the tree is less invasive, and if I keep enjoying it I know where my money will go.

[Darlgon]

Is there going to be an open beta? I thought they usually opened it up to everyone for a little bit pre-release.

Shame on you Myst. You KNOW they only do open Beta on updates, not on full fledged expansions. Go back to your Michael Jackson popcorn.