What is the Player Council up to?

[KarooOstrich]

I'd give it a go, you can do a 14 day trial period to try it out. By the end of the trial period, I knew whether or not the game was worth the sub (for me, at least).

Thank you for the info, although I am giving LOTRO a go again, and rather enjoying it (felt odd saying that to be honest)
Looking forward to what the game will be like after the upcoming mergers, I have a hunch that should all go according to plan, the community will be the better for it, but time will tell.

As Nymphonic stated, always good to have a 'backup' MMO should things go awry - and with FFIV being p2p, suits me down to a tee.

Alas, I'm off topic.

Would be nice getting some official feedback regarding the Player Council every now and then (from Turbine of course).

[Arnenna]

I suspect they are doing what they are supposed to do - keeping their mouths closed and their minds open

[kickman77]

I was in the first council.
We had lots of interesting discussions.
Most concerned responding to ideas generated either by the council, or the suggestion forum, or from the Turbine side of things.
And since this game is basically a way for The Company to make money, a lot of the ideas had to do with "How many Turbine Points, or Mithril Coins can we suck out of the players".
I can't really blame them.
They (the Turbine side of the Council) are employees of The Company. And they have to do their jobs.
Which boils down to answering the question: How do we make money with this game?

We got really fired up about some stuff.
But, when push came to shove, if it wasn't going to generate income then it wasn't going to happen.

We tossed around some really cool ideas.
For instance: crafting facilities in housing neighborhoods, or even in your kin house or personal house.
This would be great and I for one was willing to pay a bit of real coin for this.
So were most of my fellow council members.
But, well, you know...market research revealed that it would still cost more than it would generate.

There were lots of other things we tossed around.

Too bad that profit has to be king. But then, without it we would have no game at all I suppose.

Have fun.
Enjoy the game.
Don't sweat the small stuff.

"Forum Man, please listen
You don't know who you're dissin'
Forum Man,
Middle-earth is at your command."

I still have in the back of my head after we all practically begged for this, that the market research went like this

Programmer 1: Hey programmer 2 do you have free time when your not programming Big Battles?
Programmer 2: Nope I gotta finish these up
Programmer 1 : Hey programmer 3 you got a few hours you can spare from making players clean dishes and go into a basement in HD?
Programmer 3: Nope, still need to program in 200 more dishes to clean and 75 more trips to the basement im running out of reasons to senf you there
Programmer 1 Ok we will just tell them we did "Market research" they will buy it

In fact I think a lot of great ideas brought up by both councils fell into this trap/ Not saying that is what happened, just how I pictured it.

But still hoping we one day get crafting facilities at our house that we can upgrade for better crit percentages and a stable to show off our horses and an invite feature to summon people directly to the home. (by the way these were features we all wanted before they decided to cancel housing)

[Finranduil]

Can someone of the PC tell what you guys have been up to, in what ways and directions you've tried to influence Turbine in regard to U17?

Heya! (non PvMP) PC member here I can't tell you WHAT we are doing, but I can only say that we are giving advice to some things that I'm REALLY REALLY excited about... You'll definetly see those changes in game. I don't know when it will be implemented, nor can I say what it is... I'll just say that you should certainly stay around for a while. Because good things are about to happen

Lorim

[Leixy]

Heya! (non PvMP) PC member here I can't tell you WHAT we are doing, but I can only say that we are giving advice to some things that I'm REALLY REALLY excited about... You'll definetly see those changes in game. I don't know when it will be implemented, nor can I say what it is... I'll just say that you should certainly stay around for a while. Because good things are about to happen

Lorim

Ya, I agree with this, I've enjoyed a lot of what we've worked on in PvE council thus far this year.

I think part of the reason we live under an NDA is that we don't know whether several of the things we've discussed will actually make it into the game, there may be something that comes up during testing or coding on the dev side that postpones or cancels the various projects.

Having a NDA is better than not have a NDA or you run the risk of PC members spread details on features or changes discussed that never actually occur.

[Coeprandua]

Heya! (non PvMP) PC member here I can't tell you WHAT we are doing, but I can only say that we are giving advice to some things that I'm REALLY REALLY excited about... You'll definetly see those changes in game. I don't know when it will be implemented, nor can I say what it is... I'll just say that you should certainly stay around for a while. Because good things are about to happen

Lorim

YAY! On my backup MMO right now, but still here and still a vip waiting for the good thing to set in.

[Cambruyn]

YAY! On my backup MMO right now, but still here and still a vip waiting for the good thing to set in.

So the positive changes brought about by team Vyvyanne/Frelorn are still going strong? That's great to hear. I loved the changes past 12 or so months and looking forward to the next 12.

[Finranduil]

So the positive changes brought about by team Vyvyanne/Frelorn are still going strong? That's great to hear. I loved the changes past 12 or so months and looking forward to the next 12.

Still going strong?? I've seen things happen from which I thought that was impossible (with the old team maybe) so this is indeed a big improvement. And what Leixy said: only time will tell if everything can/will happen, but some of the better things are quite likely as far as I know

[Mar-Evayave]

Hm, well, what I can say: the experience so far has not resembled what I've heard about past PCs.

My time in game has, sadly, been limited recently. School started back up a few weeks ago and I'm still experiencing some form of school-induced jet-lag as I try to get back into the rhythm. I've also had some medical hiccups to my daily life. Just the other day I got home after about 9-10 hours at work and school only to suffer the rest of the day to a monstrous migraine. Still recovering from that (this is the first time I've actually turned on my computer since Monday evening).

I've also had little to actually do. My toons on Riddermark are collecting dust until the transfers (which I am eagerly awaiting; I've missed playing them so much!) and the only character on Landroval that currently has anything to do (because Fayeh already has most of what I wanna get her; all I can do with her right now is PvMP, and that is a very time-consuming and addictive activity) is a lowbie I play with my kid brother, but again, my schedule has made it harder for the two of us to both be available to play. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed a chicken run (Free Range) my mates had recently. We had 24 chickens participate and about as many chicken tenders. That was all kinds of fun.

But I will echo what someone said earlier. There are things I eagerly await, and some you guys already know about, such as the transfers themselves. I feel envious of Elendilmir and Estel. The moment Riddermark is opened to transfers and I get on my computer, I'm dragging my characters over to Landroval and I know I'm gonna have so much fun getting to know them again. I'm particularly anxious to play my RK and LM again, but I think my Burglar (level 60) is gonna be high on my priority list as well. I was surprised at how much fun I have with that class.

So, long story short, PC members are probably not that different from anyone else. We just have more on the forums, which is of course under NDA. I hope that at the end of the year Frelorn will release us from our NDA.

[Thundertrain]

Having a NDA is better than not have a NDA or you run the risk of PC members spread details on features or changes discussed that never actually occur.

You mean like, say, a giant housing update / overhaul that was promised...delayed...and cancelled entirely. No, wait...that wasn't the Players Council. THAT WAS TURBINE!

Can you tell I'm still bitter about that one?

In all fairness, the new team has not only done a solid job of making "quality of life" improvements to the game, they've also done some things (*cough cough COSMETIC WEAPONS cough*) that were described as virtually impossible by some other folks at Turbine only a year ago. I've also noticed that Vyv, Frelorn, and the others are very careful about giving us as much info as they can for things on which they can actually deliver, without throwing any pipe dreams at us that haven't been vetted by the budget committee or the programmers. This method of info delivery may not offer as much insight as players would like, but it does keep us informed without risking a burn like the housing update, or the I-lost-count-number-of-delays for the new PvMP map.

-Thundertrain

[Warmutkan]

Can someone of the PC tell what you guys have been up to, in what ways and directions you've tried to influence Turbine in regard to U17?

Reasonable to ask. Hoping a blue name chimes in.

[Theomur]

The PvMP PC is a working group that provides good advice and ideas to Turbine and then Turbine sometimes implements the basic 25% of those ideas, thus defeating their purpose entirely. (e.g. The 1v1 arena in the dome of stars, aspects of the general Osgiliath mechanics, ...)

The only productive thing they do are details around little percentages and such provided by foods and creep passives.

The council itself does a lot of good things. Only problem is; Turbine does not have the means, but especially most of the time just refuses to acknowledge that their planned ideas will not work, despite very well argued and warnings by councilmembers which one by one have come true.

You cannot believe the number of times I wanted to tell those chums "Hey mate, hate to say this, but I told you so." The do not communicate their plans early enough for the council to give feedback. They seem to have a very specific and very limited little list of things they want to ask the pvmp PC, and all that is not on that list is ignored.

If I revealed to you the (realistic) concept of Osgiliath mechanics that the council had adviced, you'd be drooling. Turbine didn't listen. Turbine does NOT listen.

[Beaniemooch]

So, long story short, PC members are probably not that different from anyone else. We just have more on the forums, which is of course under NDA. I hope that at the end of the year Frelorn will release us from our NDA.

I wish the prior year council had been released from NDA.

[Beaniemooch]

The PvMP PC is a working group that provides good advice and ideas to Turbine and then Turbine sometimes implements the basic 25% of those ideas, thus defeating their purpose entirely. (e.g. The 1v1 arena in the dome of stars, aspects of the general Osgiliath mechanics, ...)

The only productive thing they do are details around little percentages and such provided by foods and creep passives.

The council itself does a lot of good things. Only problem is; Turbine does not have the means, but especially most of the time just refuses to acknowledge that their planned ideas will not work, despite very well argued and warnings by councilmembers which one by one have come true.

You cannot believe the number of times I wanted to tell those chums "Hey mate, hate to say this, but I told you so." The do not communicate their plans early enough for the council to give feedback. They seem to have a very specific and very limited little list of things they want to ask the pvmp PC, and all that is not on that list is ignored.

If I revealed to you the (realistic) concept of Osgiliath mechanics that the council had adviced, you'd be drooling. Turbine didn't listen. Turbine does NOT listen.

And this about sums up my experience with the prior council.

[Mar-Evayave]

I wish the prior year council had been released from NDA.

Indeed. That was the very thought that ran through my mind and the primary reason why I have concerns about whether or not the current one will. Had last year's been released (as the previous PCs had), I wouldn't have any reason to worry about it. However, last year's did set a new -- and worrisome -- precedent.

As for the PvMP PC, I know not what goes on behind those doors. What I can echo (paraphrasing) is something that Frelorn said that I also feel is true and I doubt many PvMPers would disagree: PvMPers are among the most hard to please.

My personal opinion: Which also, I feel, makes them among the most devoted and invested. As such, they will be among the most organized and thorough in anything they get their hands on. And, unfortunately, as much as some devs may like PvMP as well, time and resources are limited. Given the magnitude of just about anything PvMPers could come up with and thoroughly outline, there comes a limit where only so much will actually be implemented. Some may disagree with me on this. It's merely my two cents on that particular matter.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

As for the PvMP PC, I know not what goes on behind those doors. What I can echo (paraphrasing) is something that Frelorn said that I also feel is true and I doubt many PvMPers would disagree: PvMPers are among the most hard to please.

When it doubt, blame the customer. The mantra of every unsuccessful and failing business.

Turbine didn't listen. Turbine does NOT listen.

Kind of sums it all up. If that's the experience of some of those involved then why bother? Perhaps it's the false expectation that Turbine wants to consult beyond the MC / TP pricing for a store cosmetic.

[Coeprandua]

Kind of sums it all up. If that's the experience of some of those involved then why bother? Perhaps it's the false expectation that Turbine wants to consult beyond the MC / TP pricing for a store cosmetic.

They invented the PC, though. This year they even made 2 PCs. So why would they invite suggestions and advice in this way if they just want to reject / ignore everything upfront? Seems to me like they are just setting the stage up for more drama / qq.

[bucko39]

They invented the PC, though. This year they even made 2 PCs. So why would they invite suggestions and advice in this way if they just want to reject / ignore everything upfront? Seems to me like they are just setting the stage up for more drama / qq.

I forget who said it before, but someone said that Frelorn gave the impression he didn't really know what to do with the PC his first year on (wasn't it, after all, a pet project for Sapience?)...maybe they think that by getting rid of it will lead to bad press, etc.
Who knows. I've always said...if your CM, EP and especially, the Devs are active in their communication and feedback with the player base, this type of "focus group" shouldn't be needed. The more I hear about the PC, the more irrelevant I think it is.

There is nothing that the PC has contributed since it's inception that could not have been gleaned from actually reading this forum (Player's Suggestions, etc) and providing constant feedback and communication.

[peachykins]

I forget who said it before, but someone said that Frelorn gave the impression he didn't really know what to do with the PC his first year on (wasn't it, after all, a pet project for Sapience?)...maybe they think that by getting rid of it will lead to bad press, etc.
Who knows. I've always said...if your CM, EP and especially, the Devs are active in their communication and feedback with the player base, this type of "focus group" shouldn't be needed. The more I hear about the PC, the more irrelevant I think it is.

There is nothing that the PC has contributed since it's inception that could not have been gleaned from actually reading this forum (Player's Suggestions, etc) and providing constant feedback and communication.

I have said it all along, the PC is a joke. I still laugh that Turbine needs a PC for such a small playerbase. All this was & continues to be is a PR stunt. If you look at the history of the forums you have more then enough suggestions & feedback. I just don't think it's fair that a small selective group gets to give opinions & feedback on things Turbine presents to them.

[Calta]

I wish the prior year council had been released from NDA.

So do I! I'd love to know what you, Jilly and Nymphonic would really like to say

[Spilo]

They are doing their absolute best to make sure PvP quality gets turned down a notch. Let's all hope that they stand strong on the arduous and long journey to "buff freeps pls" and "ban macro wargs pls."

[kickman77]

They invented the PC, though. This year they even made 2 PCs. So why would they invite suggestions and advice in this way if they just want to reject / ignore everything upfront? Seems to me like they are just setting the stage up for more drama / qq.

Well I have said it before. It to me personally comes down to blame. I looked at all the patch notes over the past 2 years recently (I was looking for something in particular) and noticed something amazing. A lot of the things the PC worked on would be in the patch notesa with ZERO mention of the PC... if it was something we on the council all agreed would be a great addition or change to the game.

But, when we disagreed with Turbine and fell over ourselves not to introduce something... the council... was mentioned right away.... "This feature was added with a lot off assistance from the Players Council"

We were also told many times we do not discuss pricing ect. because they have a marketing team for that ect. But yet look at the patch notes.. we are mentioned as coming up with pricing (like for the advanced riding trait)

This was not always the case but a majority of it in my opinion. It came across as a finger point. Someone to blame. That way when the community did not react well to a addition or change they had well the PC worked on it excuse

As far as last years NDA I am ticked they did not drop it either. There was nothing IMO the community could not know. We are all adults and any personal issues could have either been hashed out in private or if things got heated on the general forums let the mods work

I just hope this years team will be differtent because of the changes already in game and things we know are coming.

[XinaLotRO]

I looked at all the patch notes over the past 2 years recently (I was looking for something in particular) and noticed something amazing. A lot of the things the PC worked on would be in the patch notes with ZERO mention of the PC...

THIS. In addition, many fixes and upgrades were put into the game that were never even mentioned in the patch notes.

On the whole, I found the PC to be quite useful. It didn't necessarily seem useful if you were simply reading through the forum posts, because we had to wait months and months to see our actual impact. Even the most recent round of major patches contained things that were discussed by the previous two PCs.

Sure, there were some trolls and people who just faded away, but there were also plenty of active, intelligent, creative people giving their feedback and sharing their insight.

[Snowlock]

My estimation on the differences in councils seen form reports on the forums:

2013 Council - relatively peaceful - Packed with pro-turbine folks combined with a sense of First Day of School comraderie created that atmosphere.
2014 Council - contentious - Healthy dose of dissidents on the council, probably because Rowan wanted to hear opinions other from yes men, badly handled by CM.
2015 Council - relatively peaceful - Mishandled community management of the 2014 council lead to a reversal more akin to the 2013 version.

[Mar-Evayave]

When it doubt, blame the customer. The mantra of every unsuccessful and failing business.

If you read blame in that, then it is your own choice, because I certainly do not place blame anywhere. And Frelorn wasn't blaming anyone either. He said himself that it has been his opinion pretty much forever -- which goes long before he became CM.

Interesting how you conveniently ignored the rest of my comments on that topic, though. I've never seen anyone dispute the suggestion that PvMPers are hard to please, yet also dedicated, invested, and all the other things I said.

If you are intent to see only the negative things, then that is all you will see.