I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[Palenen]

I really don't mind any of the repeatables. The biggest issue I see is that when there are new updates that makes old bartered gear obsolete, The costs need to be reduced. The people who have originally done those repeatables and attained the amount of bartered items it took to gain that gear, Will just have to suck it up and say 'oh well.' They are moving on anyways.

Move your cats to to floor. They shouldn't be on your desk anyways. Bad for computer keyboards of any type. It's the owner's fault for allowing this to happen. Just saying.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

For us players:
We must realize that we are not going to change the game by complaining. We can ruin participation for a large majority of people who will leave the game and the forums by excessive complaining. If you can't think of a solution other than 'In this game I use to play they did it so much better" then just don't bother. Turbine employees play LOTRO, AC1, maybe AC2, DDO, WoW, and nearly every game out there. (I've always wondered how many play Might & Magic). If you offer a suggestion that will give the developers and team members somewhere to stop rather than a ghost hunt.

This is typical of the sort of bulls**t that's been spun by those on the forum who not only want to be apologists for Turbine but who want to try and diminish the voice of others who wish to complain. How many times have we seen excellent, well thought and elaborated suggestions be ignored by Turbine for no valid reason whatsoever - the kinship revamp proposals for example. Criticism from customers is what makes Turbine assess & reassess their own approach and so deliver a better product. It's called a feedback loop and it's down to Turbine to ensure that they use the information provided by customers - in whatever way, shape or form that it is provided - in order to constantly improve.

Personally though, I think a customer is better off by just withdrawing their custom because, as we all know, money (or the absence of it) talks far louder than words.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person. Raiding requires quite a bit of preparation. What raiders are actually complaining about is that they work to raid in the game and there is then not a chain of ongoing raids. Why would there be considering what must be done and the costliness of raiding and making a raid.

More bulls**t. Every raider & end-gamer that I've gotten to know in lotro over the years as the person behind the character has been over the age of 21 and most were much older - so what does that tell me about your views above? Trying to paint those who enjoy a certain type of content as a negative stereotype is cheap & crass and again typical of what we've all seen on this forum over the years. Of course you have no hard & verifiable evidence to support your claim so why don't you withdraw it and accept that trying to push the old "Raiders are just a small minority of l337 kids" that Sap used to have his cronies on this forum posting is not going to do the game or the community any good at all.

[entername]

Went through this grind for months only to realize no one cares grouping up these days. Majority are sadly only into BBruns ...

Costs of a Guardian at level 100 (tank)

2x Litems with 7x legacies Tier 6 (lets pretend they all started at T1)
7 * 6 * 2 = 84 empo. scrolls prior imbuement (in my case, i bought them with in game gold, at roughly 50 to 70g per scroll)
84 * 50g = 4200gold
6x anfalas crystals at 200 to 300g per item
6 * 250g = 1500gold
2x Crystals of Remembrance (7th legacy) at 500g
2 x 500g = 1000g
15+ sup. morale essence at 350 to 500
15 x 400g = 6000g
50 more empo. scrolls after imbuement at 50g /ea
50 x 50g = 2500g
10 more anfalas crystals (increase SRU and tank dps) at ca. 200g
10x 200g = 2000g

Roughly total cost = 17,200 gold (minus some sup. morale drops week 1 pelargir runs ~7 drops a 500g) ... 13,700 gold

Pure estimates, as i do not remember how many empo.scrolls were used, not all were Tier 1 et cetera... my advice > focus on BB and what ever gear you need for them. Im sure other classes have similar expenses if not higher. ... sadly it is kinda futile-attempt at the end, as no one cares to run anything at all.

[Arnenna]

First, I re-read my posts this morning and you're right, I could have said things much better. But I did not call anyone any names and by saying I didn't want the game dumb'd down any further does not imply that any one is dumb. You assume I haven't read because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, that doesn't make you dumb or petulant fool. However I'm arrogant, so shoot me. I never personally attacked anyone at all yet you have attacked me an my character which is something that you said brings out the worst in you. Be careful about calling out the devils lest you find one within yourself.

So for the topic.

The virtue system is a base game design of LOTRO. As you are aware it is easier to scrap a design before it is implemented than to than it to rewrite it. LOTRO is further laden with the class based design system. It may safely be assumed that most players are more comfortable with some type of guidance system set into the game from the moment they decide to play the game; the class based systems offer that reassurance. It may be assumed that when players state they play MMOGs they are doing so for the social aspect as much as the gaming aspect but what they really mean is that they only want the social aspect of the game to be that which they tolerate in their personal daily lives, hence the problem of a class system based game design. It is a well know fact that humans are most comfortable with others who exhibit and share common characteristics and interests. It might be safe to assume that if a player first desire is to make a certain class of character then the players in the game that he/she will be most comfortable with have chosen that same type of class lines also. Yet a class system game design is to promote groupings because not one character can be all classes or customize their class to have a greater variability so as to be playable across classes. Turbine is fixing LOTRO and that is something that nobody in this thread seems to noted. This is what I take exception to. Give suggestions and possible starting points. Also realize that if you are mentioning other games you think do something better then why aren't you playing the other game? 'You' as being informal meaning no particular person at all.

The Virtue Trait system was the only way we players could customize our chars. It wasn't enough and the grind was much more pronounced than it is now. There was no store and no way to shorten it. Many complained because they thought it was the grind but it was actually the only minor and limited way they could customize their play style. Turbine understood that and so with the Mines of Moria came the Legendary System. It is an excellent system that builds on the character class system allowing a refinement to the class. Next up came the Trait Tree system, a nice way to add a refining mechanism to the Virtue System. Players are no longer forced to adapt their playing styles and goals to the system but the system is becoming more responsive to player's customization. That was a big hit with a lot of players so it certainly seemed it would be ok to introduce everyone to a 3rd Legendary Item that would also combine on top of what they had learned about the trait trees. When I listen to world chat I understand that this doesn't work for every player. I know it certainly moved me outside of my comfort zone until I felt I had mastered it as much as I was ever going to be able to. My main complaint is that what I spent to slot the appropriate relics into the bridle did not reflect on my character in any other aspect of game play except mounted combat. In my own opinion, that is too much to ask of a player even if the player is a completionist. The other failed system was the profession guilds in an already overly complicated crafting system. As is the chat system that has how many different channels which are hardly, if ever, used. But l get ahead of myself here let me continue with the evolution of LOTRO.

Now the Game is growing up and getting interesting.

From 0-99, except for some roleplayers, is the tutorial to today's game. This NEW LOTRO is all about customizing your character through the Legendary System.

The Imbuement System of Legendary Items is something I personally have been wanting from day one with day one being while I was still in AC1 before Turbine and VU set their eyes on tLotR. I always want to choose a weapon and build it to suit me and then have it grow with me. But it is extraordinarily expensive the way it is set up now. It forces players to dedicate time to repetitive actions in nearly every facet of the game and it needs to be refined. More about this later.

The Slotted Armour System is the Virtue System on steroids. It also needs refining.

Sooner or later Turbine/Warner Brothers are going to have to realize that they are asking too much of the majority of players to fully entertain this stage of the game. It takes too much time, effort or money to get a an imbued weapon that is good for one one aspect and the same is true of Armour.

There is no logical reason that a person should have to pay, in either hard currency or in game currencies, for a scroll that is going to release the relics and essences from their Legendary items. Those are our virtual items and we worked our virtual butts off to get them. Ideally, one type of legendary weapon, one legendary item, and one set of armour should be all there is now. The relics and the essences should be as easily to change out as it is for us to change our Trait Trees. There should be a place to store each set and I would suggest the packs where the chars now store consumables and loot, etc. Turbine did a great job allowing us to customize our bags but they could take that one step further by tyeing in certain bags to certain Trait Trees. That way, when we switch our trait tree our 'tied-to-gear' automatically switches.

I currently have a friend in game who is a hard-line gamer with limited financial freedom at the moment. It is safe to assume that this is the case with most people. This particular player has decided to work only with the game mechanics to build legendary items/gear. This player has multiple cap'd chars that are kept raid ready. Typical raider personality. For the past 3 weeks I have been witness to this players growing frustration of repetitive road work which the player feels is mandatory unless actually currency is finally broached. The player is approaching what I recognize as burn-out from my years in hospital settings.

Dear Turbine/Warner Brothers LOTRO Team,

The following are some possible opening suggestions for some of the current frustrations players are experiencing in the game:

1. It is time to reassess the Legendary Relic System. Once an item is Imbued:
   
   1. Players should be able to tie specific relics to a Trait Tree
   2. The Scrolls for Relic Removal must not be required once the LI has been Imbued.
      
      1. Make this an option? Perhaps a quest chain that will lead to the reward such as merchant discount? Make it a one time buy item like the mount skill for all the account?
      2. Charge for change out with in game currency but don't get ridiculously greedy about charging more a couple hundred silver. You could always count the changes into the repair system you know?
   
   
2. I like to think I understand the allure of the Essence System but really? What good is an Essence in an armour to a soloist if they go into a raid? If it makes no or little difference then why even have them? If they do make a difference then why limit us from using them simply because of our reluctance to do hours and hours of the same ol' stuff or to open our pocket books?
   
   1. Working for essences is fine but it must be understood that they are our property by the virtue of our cash, hours, or repetitive tasking. Get rid of the that scroll removal. It has to go.
   2. Allow us to tie our essences to our Trait Trees for quick change out.
   3. If you want to charge us 1 TP, or 1 Whatever the Mode-du-Coin is, or100 silver for those changes, it is more reasonable than stealing our labor and setting us back to beginner level 100-> NO!
   4. Make it so that if essences are tied to a specific Trait Tree then the Visual color of the Armour changes to correspond with the attributes. Example: A Red/Yellow Trait Tree would be Orange. The color wheel sort of thing.
   5. Let us imbue our armour and then allow us to customize it a bit by being able to select from a few chosen looks everytime where have upgraded it by 10 levels.
   6. Let us earn extra slots and armour or stat and armour/stats as we move through the game.
   
   
3. Give the players who have no interest in achieving cap'd status a similar way to achieving their goals. You've been doing pretty good so far, Turbine.
4. Review and revive the Chat system please. Too many channels and while I understand that this is not a problem with servers it appears to make the game look less populated.

For us players:
We must realize that we are not going to change the game by complaining. We can ruin participation for a large majority of people who will leave the game and the forums by excessive complaining. If you can't think of a solution other than 'In this game I use to play they did it so much better" then just don't bother. Turbine employees play LOTRO, AC1, maybe AC2, DDO, WoW, and nearly every game out there. (I've always wondered how many play Might & Magic). If you offer a suggestion that will give the developers and team members somewhere to stop rather than a ghost hunt.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person. Raiding requires quite a bit of preparation. What raiders are actually complaining about is that they work to raid in the game and there is then not a chain of ongoing raids. Why would there be considering what must be done and the costliness of raiding and making a raid.

Turbine, Thank you for beginning to fix the crafting. The next legendary/essence systems combined with the crafting guild was bothersome. If you would further refine it so that we may have any crafter gather whatever resources are available provided we have a universal tool to gather, then I would be extraordinarily grateful.

I don't see how more clearly LOTRO can be Charted. It goes from point to point to point with every branch being brought back to the point which is the Book quests. The only way a player can lose their way is if they don't ever do the book quests.

Sorry for all the typos and mistakes in grammar. It is difficult to type with a thought in mind with a cat who insists on sleeping on part of the keyboard and a Shiba Inu who remembers you promised to play freesbie after a walk.

I'm sorry, but now you've completely lost me. We shouldn't complain? But . . .. . you just typed out the biggest, most detailed complaint in the whole thread? You listed all the things you dislike, or feel are bad for how you play, and gave some suggestions at the end on how to improve those things.

That's exactly what everyone else is doing.

Ok, so you've re-read your own posts, perhaps now you need to properly read everyone elses, and you will see, mostly they have the same concerns as you (but probably not as many as you), and have also offered suggestions.

And you did use the label "Dumb", whether you admit it or not, you used it in your post title. You also called people whiners, and moaners. So please, stop trying to now paint yourself as a picture of politeness.

It would seem, from your last post, that you have far more complaints about current level 100 game than most. But hey, I won't call you anything bad because of that. I will however give you a little bit of advice. It's probably not a very good idea to label raiders as financially disadvantaged teenagers, spoiled kids with rich parents or disabled middle-agers. Some (most) folk can multi-task, they hold jobs, keep families, and still raid perfectly well. I know a lot of them. And even if we do have teens that are not going through college or middle aged people with a disability or retired people in the game, that is absolutely fine, in fact, its more than fine - its great.

This part of your post.

"Turbine, Thank you for beginning to fix the crafting. The next legendary/essence systems combined with the crafting guild was bothersome. If you would further refine it so that we may have any crafter gather whatever resources are available provided we have a universal tool to gather, then I would be extraordinarily grateful. "

That there, is that silver platter you are so opposed to. There is a reason why we have three-profession crafts, that reason is to encourage us to make and actually play alts. If they give us this, it will be a silver platter for sure.

[Hurin]

First, I re-read my posts this morning and you're right, I could have said things much better. But I did not call anyone any names and by saying I didn't want the game dumb'd down any further does not imply that any one is dumb. You assume I haven't read because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, that doesn't make you dumb or petulant fool. However I'm arrogant, so shoot me. I never personally attacked anyone at all yet you have attacked me an my character which is something that you said brings out the worst in you. Be careful about calling out the devils lest you find one within yourself.

So for the topic.

The virtue system is a base game design of LOTRO. As you are aware it is easier to scrap a design before it is implemented than to than it to rewrite it. LOTRO is further laden with the class based design system. It may safely be assumed that most players are more comfortable with some type of guidance system set into the game from the moment they decide to play the game; the class based systems offer that reassurance. It may be assumed that when players state they play MMOGs they are doing so for the social aspect as much as the gaming aspect but what they really mean is that they only want the social aspect of the game to be that which they tolerate in their personal daily lives, hence the problem of a class system based game design. It is a well know fact that humans are most comfortable with others who exhibit and share common characteristics and interests. It might be safe to assume that if a player first desire is to make a certain class of character then the players in the game that he/she will be most comfortable with have chosen that same type of class lines also. Yet a class system game design is to promote groupings because not one character can be all classes or customize their class to have a greater variability so as to be playable across classes. Turbine is fixing LOTRO and that is something that nobody in this thread seems to noted. This is what I take exception to. Give suggestions and possible starting points. Also realize that if you are mentioning other games you think do something better then why aren't you playing the other game? 'You' as being informal meaning no particular person at all.

The Virtue Trait system was the only way we players could customize our chars. It wasn't enough and the grind was much more pronounced than it is now. There was no store and no way to shorten it. Many complained because they thought it was the grind but it was actually the only minor and limited way they could customize their play style. Turbine understood that and so with the Mines of Moria came the Legendary System. It is an excellent system that builds on the character class system allowing a refinement to the class. Next up came the Trait Tree system, a nice way to add a refining mechanism to the Virtue System. Players are no longer forced to adapt their playing styles and goals to the system but the system is becoming more responsive to player's customization. That was a big hit with a lot of players so it certainly seemed it would be ok to introduce everyone to a 3rd Legendary Item that would also combine on top of what they had learned about the trait trees. When I listen to world chat I understand that this doesn't work for every player. I know it certainly moved me outside of my comfort zone until I felt I had mastered it as much as I was ever going to be able to. My main complaint is that what I spent to slot the appropriate relics into the bridle did not reflect on my character in any other aspect of game play except mounted combat. In my own opinion, that is too much to ask of a player even if the player is a completionist. The other failed system was the profession guilds in an already overly complicated crafting system. As is the chat system that has how many different channels which are hardly, if ever, used. But l get ahead of myself here let me continue with the evolution of LOTRO.

Now the Game is growing up and getting interesting.

From 0-99, except for some roleplayers, is the tutorial to today's game. This NEW LOTRO is all about customizing your character through the Legendary System.

The Imbuement System of Legendary Items is something I personally have been wanting from day one with day one being while I was still in AC1 before Turbine and VU set their eyes on tLotR. I always want to choose a weapon and build it to suit me and then have it grow with me. But it is extraordinarily expensive the way it is set up now. It forces players to dedicate time to repetitive actions in nearly every facet of the game and it needs to be refined. More about this later.

The Slotted Armour System is the Virtue System on steroids. It also needs refining.

Sooner or later Turbine/Warner Brothers are going to have to realize that they are asking too much of the majority of players to fully entertain this stage of the game. It takes too much time, effort or money to get a an imbued weapon that is good for one one aspect and the same is true of Armour.

There is no logical reason that a person should have to pay, in either hard currency or in game currencies, for a scroll that is going to release the relics and essences from their Legendary items. Those are our virtual items and we worked our virtual butts off to get them. Ideally, one type of legendary weapon, one legendary item, and one set of armour should be all there is now. The relics and the essences should be as easily to change out as it is for us to change our Trait Trees. There should be a place to store each set and I would suggest the packs where the chars now store consumables and loot, etc. Turbine did a great job allowing us to customize our bags but they could take that one step further by tyeing in certain bags to certain Trait Trees. That way, when we switch our trait tree our 'tied-to-gear' automatically switches.

I currently have a friend in game who is a hard-line gamer with limited financial freedom at the moment. It is safe to assume that this is the case with most people. This particular player has decided to work only with the game mechanics to build legendary items/gear. This player has multiple cap'd chars that are kept raid ready. Typical raider personality. For the past 3 weeks I have been witness to this players growing frustration of repetitive road work which the player feels is mandatory unless actually currency is finally broached. The player is approaching what I recognize as burn-out from my years in hospital settings.

Dear Turbine/Warner Brothers LOTRO Team,

The following are some possible opening suggestions for some of the current frustrations players are experiencing in the game:

1. It is time to reassess the Legendary Relic System. Once an item is Imbued:
   
   1. Players should be able to tie specific relics to a Trait Tree
   2. The Scrolls for Relic Removal must not be required once the LI has been Imbued.
      
      1. Make this an option? Perhaps a quest chain that will lead to the reward such as merchant discount? Make it a one time buy item like the mount skill for all the account?
      2. Charge for change out with in game currency but don't get ridiculously greedy about charging more a couple hundred silver. You could always count the changes into the repair system you know?
   
   
2. I like to think I understand the allure of the Essence System but really? What good is an Essence in an armour to a soloist if they go into a raid? If it makes no or little difference then why even have them? If they do make a difference then why limit us from using them simply because of our reluctance to do hours and hours of the same ol' stuff or to open our pocket books?
   
   1. Working for essences is fine but it must be understood that they are our property by the virtue of our cash, hours, or repetitive tasking. Get rid of the that scroll removal. It has to go.
   2. Allow us to tie our essences to our Trait Trees for quick change out.
   3. If you want to charge us 1 TP, or 1 Whatever the Mode-du-Coin is, or100 silver for those changes, it is more reasonable than stealing our labor and setting us back to beginner level 100-> NO!
   4. Make it so that if essences are tied to a specific Trait Tree then the Visual color of the Armour changes to correspond with the attributes. Example: A Red/Yellow Trait Tree would be Orange. The color wheel sort of thing.
   5. Let us imbue our armour and then allow us to customize it a bit by being able to select from a few chosen looks everytime where have upgraded it by 10 levels.
   6. Let us earn extra slots and armour or stat and armour/stats as we move through the game.
   
   
3. Give the players who have no interest in achieving cap'd status a similar way to achieving their goals. You've been doing pretty good so far, Turbine.
4. Review and revive the Chat system please. Too many channels and while I understand that this is not a problem with servers it appears to make the game look less populated.

For us players:
We must realize that we are not going to change the game by complaining. We can ruin participation for a large majority of people who will leave the game and the forums by excessive complaining. If you can't think of a solution other than 'In this game I use to play they did it so much better" then just don't bother. Turbine employees play LOTRO, AC1, maybe AC2, DDO, WoW, and nearly every game out there. (I've always wondered how many play Might & Magic). If you offer a suggestion that will give the developers and team members somewhere to stop rather than a ghost hunt.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person. Raiding requires quite a bit of preparation. What raiders are actually complaining about is that they work to raid in the game and there is then not a chain of ongoing raids. Why would there be considering what must be done and the costliness of raiding and making a raid.

Turbine, Thank you for beginning to fix the crafting. The next legendary/essence systems combined with the crafting guild was bothersome. If you would further refine it so that we may have any crafter gather whatever resources are available provided we have a universal tool to gather, then I would be extraordinarily grateful.

I don't see how more clearly LOTRO can be Charted. It goes from point to point to point with every branch being brought back to the point which is the Book quests. The only way a player can lose their way is if they don't ever do the book quests.

Sorry for all the typos and mistakes in grammar. It is difficult to type with a thought in mind with a cat who insists on sleeping on part of the keyboard and a Shiba Inu who remembers you promised to play freesbie after a walk.

LOL! This was priceless. Thanks for the laugh.

[Lilywarrior]

I'll keep it short; founder here with pre order lifetime account since april 2007, been in beta since the beta was public. Gosh, I was there at the go! Every morpg needs grind, no company can develop content at the pace players play it. However that grind should be reasonable and well disguised, which is not the case with the current state of lotro. When the game was launched grind was nothing compared to what it is now, there was virtue grinding only and mob grinding until they delivered book9 which filled the gaps in levels 35-42.

The transition to f2p was made because the game after som was failing fast. Lifetime subs have nothing to do with that, they were a good deal for turbine, in fact they sold them again with moria. If they werent a good deal why sell them again with mom? Game after som was dying because the content developed was not good enough to keep players playing, they made wrong development choices like radiance, which was a bad idea from the start and LIS started to show how badly implemented they were at 65.

Oh and the habit of missing self imposed deadlines, like lothlorien being in MOM from start but delayed for months, same thing for DN raid.

Bottom line, grind in soa mom era was manageable by everyone with an hour a day to spare, now is not. Character progression in soa-mom was mostly skill gated (with mom introducing time sink grinds like repeating 36 runs at avrage to get armour pieces), now character progression is entirely time/money gated.

Me too! I started a bit earlier in closed Beta. I was there from day three on the development forums where I learned that Turbine wanted it to be like WoW and since I was in beta in WoW I knew I didn't want that. By the time LOTRO came out I had already done one of those early Big Raids in WoW 15 times without getting a single piece of the Armor for the healing druid and I had DKP up the wazzoo. Why? Because people who had all but a couple pieces were privileged to go first before those of us who had none so that the Guild could move on to the next raid instance. Love the raids and the people but hated a game that made getting the necessaries for the raid happen in a previous raid. I was not unhappy to leave WoW when I got my invite to Beta. But the problem is the game design was based on Blizzards block buster. So changing it is taking years and it hasn't helped that Turbine had some internal problems and ended up selling out to Warner Brothers. Does anybody from Warner Brothers play LOTRO? Just kidding.

There were folks already then saying it was going to fail. I didn't think SOA compared with MOM but that needing to suit everyone up and get their class deeds done! Whew! I can tell you it is difficult when your the leader and you have more people than can attend in one run but not enough to make two runs in one night. The rest didn't want the stuff at that cost of repetition.

I don't think getting one's raid gear should be tied to a fellowship or group instance. I also don't think the individual player should have to rebuild a city to get the entire suit especially when the player is only allowed 5 quests per day and they are the same quests ad nausea. Why not once a person has earned Kindred in a region all the rep points for quests done in that region go into our wallets where we can exchange them for the current coins we need for the current stuff. I am not going to grind all of those quests in Gondor or Minas Tirith so I can buy tons of 1x scrolls to a probable fail not to get a crit. I would do it provided the scrolls were good for 5 times with no timer and no Essence Removal Scroll. I know a couple of people who took one look at the Relic removal scroll and said: "Nope! Been there, done that! I will go play Star Wars.". I still talk to them occasionally and they always ask, So how's the store affecting your game now? and then responding 'I told you so when I saw those relic removal scrolls'.

[Arnenna]

Me too! I started a bit earlier in closed Beta. I was there from day three on the development forums where I learned that Turbine wanted it to be like WoW and since I was in beta in WoW I knew I didn't want that. By the time LOTRO came out I had already done one of those early Big Raids in WoW 15 times without getting a single piece of the Armor for the healing druid and I had DKP up the wazzoo. Why? Because people who had all but a couple pieces were privileged to go first before those of us who had none so that the Guild could move on to the next raid instance. Love the raids and the people but hated a game that made getting the necessaries for the raid happen in a previous raid. I was not unhappy to leave WoW when I got my invite to Beta. But the problem is the game design was based on Blizzards block buster. So changing it is taking years and it hasn't helped that Turbine had some internal problems and ended up selling out to Warner Brothers. Does anybody from Warner Brothers play LOTRO? Just kidding.

There were folks already then saying it was going to fail. I didn't think SOA compared with MOM but that needing to suit everyone up and get their class deeds done! Whew! I can tell you it is difficult when your the leader and you have more people than can attend in one run but not enough to make two runs in one night. The rest didn't want the stuff at that cost of repetition.

I don't think getting one's raid gear should be tied to a fellowship or group instance. I also don't think the individual player should have to rebuild a city to get the entire suit especially when the player is only allowed 5 quests per day and they are the same quests ad nausea. Why not once a person has earned Kindred in a region all the rep points for quests done in that region go into our wallets where we can exchange them for the current coins we need for the current stuff. I am not going to grind all of those quests in Gondor or Minas Tirith so I can buy tons of 1x scrolls to a probable fail not to get a crit. I would do it provided the scrolls were good for 5 times with no timer and no Essence Removal Scroll. I know a couple of people who took one look at the Relic removal scroll and said: "Nope! Been there, done that! I will go play Star Wars.". I still talk to them occasionally and they always ask, So how's the store affecting your game now? and then responding 'I told you so when I saw those relic removal scrolls'.

I'm getting more and more confused with every post that you make.

Are you actually the same person typing? Did you not step into this thread saying that people want things handed to them on a silver platter less than two days ago? Did you not call them a bunch of whiners and moaners because they have concerns about a very lengthy Imbued LI grind at level cap which runs along an exponential horizontal plain and doubles with each update (thereby making it pretty impossible for people with a lot of alts to catch up)?

And now you want to get all craft gathering, completely remove the essence reclaimation scrolls (which by the way, can be earned in game now, no need to go to the store), and relic removal scrolls which are now pretty much redundant if you imbue your weapon. It would seem that you do not want to do any grind for essence recipes either. Also, the dailies in Minas Tirith are more to do with getting tokens for armour and for an Empo scroll every few days. But if you had done them at all, you would know that.

It reads to me like you want quite a few silver platters of your own here.

[Lilywarrior]

I'm sorry, but now you've completely lost me. We shouldn't complain? But . . .. . you just typed out the biggest, most detailed complaint in the whole thread? You listed all the things you dislike, or feel are bad for how you play, and gave some suggestions at the end on how to improve those things.

That's exactly what everyone else is doing.

Ok, so you've re-read your own posts, perhaps now you need to properly read everyone elses, and you will see, mostly they have the same concerns as you (but probably not as many as you), and have also offered suggestions.

And you did use the label "Dumb", whether you admit it or not, you used it in your post title. You also called people whiners, and moaners. So please, stop trying to now paint yourself as a picture of politeness.

It would seem, from your last post, that you have far more complaints about current level 100 game than most. But hey, I won't call you anything bad because of that. I will however give you a little bit of advice. It's probably not a very good idea to label raiders as financially disadvantaged teenagers, spoiled kids with rich parents or disabled middle-agers. Some (most) folk can multi-task, they hold jobs, keep families, and still raid perfectly well. I know a lot of them. And even if we do have teens that are not going through college or middle aged people with a disability or retired people in the game, that is absolutely fine, in fact, its more than fine - its great.

This part of your post.

"Turbine, Thank you for beginning to fix the crafting. The next legendary/essence systems combined with the crafting guild was bothersome. If you would further refine it so that we may have any crafter gather whatever resources are available provided we have a universal tool to gather, then I would be extraordinarily grateful. "

That there, is that silver platter you are so opposed to. There is a reason why we have three-profession crafts, that reason is to encourage us to make and actually play alts. If they give us this, it will be a silver platter for sure.

Nope, actually I was listing what I had read and what I thought would solve it. I seldom write about what I don't like in the game because I refuse to do what I don't like. My Buck, My decision.

When I see a problem that can be fixed by doing something I will always suggest the fix... The key here is 'suggest'. That is an adult way to approach a problem. This is the way I and my team worked. Anyone one was allowed to suggest solutions to problems they perceived. In that way we could determine whether there was a problem and 1) was it possible to fix, 2) was the suggest a tool to do so. But maybe you've never been in a management position or you just take instructions? I don't know.

I told you I have a cat that sleeps next to and sometimes on my key board. I did notice the title dumb this morning but I also know I didn't type it in there and so it probably happened when the cat moved. I am an adult. I really don't think anyone is dumb but there are quite a few people who irritate me and I will tell them why, dumb, will not be in the sentence.

You read quite a bit between the lines. Either that or your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired. I never wrote:

"...to label raiders as financially disadvantaged teenagers, spoiled kids with rich parents or disabled middle-agers. Some (most) folk can multi-task, they hold jobs, keep families, and still raid perfectly well. I know a lot of them. And even if we do have teens that are not going through college or middle aged people with a disability or retired people in the game..."

Those are your words not mine. Please come back and tell me about multi-tasking when you are raising 3 children as a solo parent while working in a patient care hospital and going to school. When you can sew their new clothes while holding one on your lap and helping the other two with their homework while dinner is cooking I will consider you an equal. Until then, you are just some person on a forum who likes to troll.

[Calta]

People here aren't complaining because they arent handed down things right and now, they are complaining because everything is gated by hours and hours and hours of repetitive easy bottable content. Solo dailies, bbs that do not require any skill or team coordination at all but just time to grind ranks and when you are rank6 all of them are easy as strolls in the shire.

And all of this has been designed and developed on purpose to force people to buy grind reducers in the store. All of the game development since helms deep has been executed with this goal in mind. All of it, it just takes someone some small experience in software design to see the big picture.

In this thread I have seen people asking for fun, interesting, challening content, be it solo or group, by which acquiring gear and equipment, gating by skill and not by time, as it is in any well designed game. As it was in SOA, and still was till Isengard. And they are called whiners for this, LOL, how sad.

This post sums it up for me. Being the 'loquacious lady' that I am, what follows is the long personal insight into why.....

First point:
I am one of those who dislikes mindless repetition and redundancy -I loathe doing something that has to be redone again later just because the goal posts shift for no apparent reason or because 'that is the way it works, suck it up" I understand this shifting of the goal is part of MMOs but in order for it to motivate, not cause resentment for people like me, the goal needs to be achievable at some point.

I do need to feel that the task is completed and there is a positive practical outcome for me at the end of completing the task. Clearing a page in my deed log is OK but it won't get me to grind deeds. Getting my virtues done in order to be able to do something I enjoy, will. . ie I need to feel like I got my gear/LI maxed/virtues done so I could now...raid, PvP, show off my epeen build to my friends?....well not really, in my case, but some people do like bragging rights... or whatever finishing the task then enables me to do. I like being good at this game and I love the RP and story aspect of it. But these days, since Rohan, I am not getting immersed questing (MoL's epic excluded)

There are a lot of people like me out there......

So I do grind. But it has to lead to something.

Second point:
Having done that on my main, I feel slightly ill at the thought of doing it all again. I am levelling a RK. I take forever to level because I actually enjoy the story and the quests. Until I am faced with Rohan and Gondor. My quest options are limited and linear and the epic story I already know by heart There are no new discoveries in store for me.(Unlike Moria or even Dunland where I find new stories and characters, every time I run through) My chances to use my sparkly gear in group content are non existent at 85 plus.

It is my third time through and I have been 86 for week. I 've got my horse. I've got my frst agers. I even got some kinnies to have some fun doing deed runs in Moria to improve my sucky virtues. But I can't get myself to quest or level. Partly because those Thanes drive me nuts. And partly because as 100 looms so does the grind...

Do all Rohan quests for points, Do BBs again and again for points. Do central gondor to death for points. Just points. Not a new legendary skill I feel proud of. Not a hard earned title on my RK,. Just some points....which doesn't 'sing' for me like getting a legendary skill used to... And there are no other ways of getting those points. Just the same things I've done over and over...And then there will be the essences. Endless BBs for the chance of a morale. Or endless fornosts for the gold to buy them. And then the LIs. Getting all the legacies I need and maxed....100s of scrolls again, millions of marks again. 1000s of gold, again. And grinding TP for the store bought crystals cause I have never had a remembrance drop in game. I have only got them from paying for expansions or buying them for cash. And I can't justify that expense on an alt.

This is not too bad for someone who groups everyday for hours a day...I get a lot of medallions a week., 1000s per day if I choose...so it has only taken two to three months to get my main weapon perfect and my book nearly so.but not everyone has that option. I used to like building my LIs. It was a pain to deconstruct my beautiful second agers because they represented my improved class knowledge and my experience in instances ( i never had a first age until this year) and I don't mind building my imbued weapons...but the process is hard if you need 4, even if you do Fornost and or Helegrod (Thorog) everyday and are rolling in meds and gold and shards....

I also have a closet full of instance armour I can equip at 100 on my RK, and use to avoid the worst of the DA grind. I have a vault with some rep in it.(Not as much as I should--hating DA dailies as I do.) I have the 4 symbols for LIs and even some essences. But I have little motivation to continue to race to 100 or even to take it slowly 'enjoying the journey.'...except to have an OP RK available to the kin. I love my RK but I know she'll be endlessly killing landscape mobs for weeks to get the best armour around from getting kin with MT or endlessly doing repeatable dailies to get the DA slotted gear *in order to do RC in to get the BiS. The prospect of doing DA armoury for the zillionth time, or the prospect of killing 100 trolls does not ill me with joy. Because then what? RC again only it is easier this time?

My main hasn't finished her MT quests yet. Because what do I need the extra points for.?..she is a minstrel. She heals. She can heal everything. She healed RC in the old gear without the points. She healed all the BBs, banners, and boxes without the points...she didn't finish central gondor for that reason either. I went to PVP land again today f or the first time in 3 months. . I had such fun. And when i came back I thought..'.I really must knock of those class points'...because the points matter to me, when it matters whether i can add another skill or add some more OP heals to my outnumbered Froup. So I will bite the bullet and do the deeds because at the end of it there is fun to be had.

Killing 300 trolls doesn't make me feel good. Killing 300 trolls while completing a difficult quest chain or instance does. Saving my raid or trying to heal my fraid, does..Healing in Saruman- even now, unscaled as it is- does. Farming RC, not so much. God moding on landscape instances is more fun than stuggling. These are the reasons I gind to max my character.

I am trying to persuade some people to have a go at SL tier 2 CM. That will be fun. That's about all I have to look forward to in PvE...which is sad. So I stopped grinding for this reason .

Then came PVP.......People who have known me for the 5 years I have played, will be shocked at that last statement. I have refused to PvP because I am not competitive or aggressive. But it is the only place where I get my challenge.... Meanwhile I'll grind dailies happily in the moors for the comms for the gear for the fun!

Please note. I am new to PvP. I am rank 6. I have played for about twenty hours in the moors and spent half that time dead/running back from the rez.. I am as bad a t PVP as I was at healing the Grand Stairs for the first time. But I want to improve and I know, as I do, I will feel rewarded. Not by gear, or skills or shinies. By something called intrinsic satisfaction... and laughter. The last time I had so much fun was trying out a new difficult instance.....

TL: DR I am missing a sense of achievement from PLAYING! Challenge = inspiration (I like to learn) Play=fun. But Repetition =boredom for me. Having the store in my face as a way to alleviate that boredom just advertises in neon that the ingame rewards aren't worth the tedium and repetition to get t o be the best I can be. Because, for what?

A sense of achievement in a team is a great motivator that is often overlooked in current game design. A bit more of that please (plus shinies and titles and loot and bragging rights for them as likes 'em) and I'll grind those trolls in PvE land, not happily, but knowing it s for a purpose People like me hang around. We do spend money if it helps us have more fun. We are like mount collectors in that respect. But we need something to pay and play for....without the cash grab to alleviate boredom being so obvious.

God knows what it is like for people without a main to leech off. who would like to join a group at 100. The gulf widens every week for them

End of rave. Thanks to those who stuck with it. I hope it gives the devs some insight into the group of gamers who aren't satisfied with ticking off check lists...slayer deeds, done. LI's done, virtues, done. (bought?) Now onto the next game.

oh to end more postiviely: and Praise Eru. and the devs for this one.....the DA dailies can be bipassed entirley now we can craft. slotted armour and jewellery. Thanks for listening

Edit: Lily and others of that ilk Just drop the prejudices and assumptions about US wanting instant gratification and being whiny kids. Sorry that meme/ ignorant profiling doesn't apply here. We who feel like this aren't all useless teens with no jobs and no life as some would have you believe... you can probably tell that from our grammar and syntax and use of language. (if not from my spelling and typing LOL)
Th is game skews to older, female, educated, word lovers more than any other game I know of. Don't believe me? ask Landy about the sci fi book discussion that went on for over an hour in world. Ask Laurelin about the insightful discussion of Tolkien and the general knowledge shown of geography and world politics. We are bright articulate and analytical. We may be worth listening to......rather than dismissing us by using some hackneyed stereotype. you got from some cheap magazine or Fox 'news'. Fact check before you insult and attack people ....Lily You just showed your true shallow natuere and lack of knowledge of this game with those remarks.

[Arnenna]

Nope, actually I was listing what I had read and what I thought would solve it. I seldom write about what I don't like in the game because I refuse to do what I don't like. My Buck, My decision.

When I see a problem that can be fixed by doing something I will always suggest the fix... The key here is 'suggest'. That is an adult way to approach a problem. This is the way I and my team worked. Anyone one was allowed to suggest solutions to problems they perceived. In that way we could determine whether there was a problem and 1) was it possible to fix, 2) was the suggest a tool to do so. But maybe you've never been in a management position or you just take instructions? I don't know.

I told you I have a cat that sleeps next to and sometimes on my key board. I did notice the title dumb this morning but I also know I didn't type it in there and so it probably happened when the cat moved. I am an adult. I really don't think anyone is dumb but there are quite a few people who irritate me and I will tell them why, dumb, will not be in the sentence.

You read quite a bit between the lines. Either that or your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired. I never wrote:

"...to label raiders as financially disadvantaged teenagers, spoiled kids with rich parents or disabled middle-agers. Some (most) folk can multi-task, they hold jobs, keep families, and still raid perfectly well. I know a lot of them. And even if we do have teens that are not going through college or middle aged people with a disability or retired people in the game..."

Those are your words not mine. Please come back and tell me about multi-tasking when you are raising 3 children as a solo parent while working in a patient care hospital and going to school. When you can sew their new clothes while holding one on your lap and helping the other two with their homework while dinner is cooking I will consider you an equal. Until then, you are just some person on a forum who likes to troll.

No, you didn't list what you had read, because nobody before you raised issue with not being able to pick up all crafting materials, and nobody mentioned essence reclaimation scrolls or relics as a problem - those are all yours I'm sorry to point out to you. And sorry, but yes you did label raiders that way, Go read your post again.

Actually, I will add it here for you in all it's glory, as you are the one that seems to have trouble with reading here (your own posts), not me.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person.

I'm a 51 year old Grandmother that raised three daughters all born within 5 years of one another. I did it back in the day when we had to wash nappies, not throw them away. I did half of that as a single parent, while holding two jobs to make ends meet, and yes, studying a University Degree as well. Don't go there ok. I now have full time care of of my Granddaughter, and have done since she was born. I left my job as it was a stipulation of a care order that I do so, but I can resume my job in a couple of years time when she is 12. I do voluntary work from home for various animal charities around the world in the meantime. And you know what, that doesn't make me better than anyone else, nor do i try to kid myself that it does. It doesn't make me bitter enough to throw my circumstances at others in a forum debate to claim the "I'm special" card either.

I really wouldn't want to be your equal thank you very much. I'd like to stay as far away from anything like you as possible. High horse, inflated head and huge chip on shoulder, thanks but no thanks.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

No, you didn't list what you had read, because nobody before you raised issue with not being able to pick up all crafting materials, and nobody mentioned essence reclaimation scrolls or relics as a problem - those are all yours I'm sorry to point out to you. And sorry, but yes you did label raiders that way, Go read your post again.

Actually, I will add it here for you in all it's glory, as you are the one that seems to have trouble with reading here (your own posts), not me.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person.

I'm a 51 year old Grandmother that raised three daughters all born within 5 years of one another. I did it back in the day when we had to wash nappies, not throw them away. I did half of that as a single parent, while holding two jobs to make ends meet, and yes, studying a University Degree as well. Don't go there ok. I now have full time care of of my Granddaughter, and have done since she was born. I left my job as it was a stipulation of a care order that I do so, but I can resume my job in a couple of years time when she is 12. I do voluntary work from home for various animal charities around the world in the meantime. And you know what, that doesn't make me better than anyone else, nor do i try to kid myself that it does. It doesn't make me bitter enough to throw my circumstances at others in a forum debate to claim the "I'm special" card either.

I really wouldn't want to be your equal thank you very much. I'd like to stay as far away from anything like you as possible. High horse, inflated head and huge chip on shoulder, thanks but no thanks.

[matalan]

The above quoted post - brilliant!


It's quite simple really. The grind has got to the point where people with jobs, people with care responsibilities, people with 'average' play time, have no real hope of actually getting their toons equipped. Even more of an issue if you play more than one toon, which can be quite common - who doesn't like to tank and pull out their DPS or healer when they feel like something different? Or when the kin tank doesn't show up as they are unwell this weeks kin-run?

TBH even IF you have the luxury of all the time in the world to play LOTRO, the current end game grind is STILL way over the top. Dailies by their nature restrict how many scrolls you can earn from Stars of Merit, as an EG, plus theres the sheer length of time it would take to run every single EB. Same can be said for marks/meds farming. We are talking hours and hours a day to earn enough to get scrolls to cap a toon in what, I guess a month is you put in some serious hours?? And is that fun? Is it even needed?!

Where is the awesome place to go with our capped LIs? Sadly Turbine have realised that enough people will do the grind, or PAY not to, even WITHOUT content that requires such weapons. Name content you CANNOT beat without a maxed ILI?


I used to be happy to play my main and alts, I felt I had a purpose, something to work towards that was REALISTIC, somewhere as a goal to AIM for.....


.... that has changed for sure.



Turbine needs to take a look at this thread and seriously consider what they are doing. I'm currently on a break from the game after getting ONE of my lvl 100's all the new trait points and his 4 ILIs to an average of around 40.... that's pain enough for me I'll tell you. Especially when the most recent content to tackle is some Epic Battle where really non of that stuff even matters.


Enough ranting from me, I've said this all before through beta testing for a long long time, maybe U18 will show some hope. *shakes head*

[Eirika]

I also echo other's decision to leave my alts behind. I managed to get my first alt (besides LM main) to 100, and I have given up on him. If you think the grind is bad for a main, try grinding a level 1 to Max gear:

LIs before imbuement including crystals, relics, large amount of scrolls
LIs afterimbuement including crystals and massive amount of scrolls
BB grind for Trait Points
BB grind for Jewelery
Massive Virtue Grind
Huge Trait Point Grind through Gondor and Western Rohan
Essence Grind
Crafting Grind
Big Crafting Guild Grind
Commendations Grind for Audacity armor.


I have totally and completely given up on it, and am attempting to grind for my one main, and I'm not even half way done with the U17 Grind which was released a month ago. Turbine, this is bad, bad business.

Not denying it is a grind and a half!

BUT I have found that I am replacing most of my BB jewelry (all gold) with the crafted essence pieces. That does eliminate some grind.

I admit that of my 4 level 100's only 2 are being seriously geared now due to the toll the constant repetition of dailies is taking on my fun. I am still playing them all plus a couple of lowbies simply because well, the LM is fun to blow stuff up with and the both are token mules running the DA dailies to get gold and silver tokens for my RK's gear. My hunter is complete except for 2 elusive trait points which I have been to lazy to do the cross check to find what I missed (not rohan or class quests) that was 3 weeks off the moors steady every day...

I pity people trying to do more than 1 or 2 characters...I really do.

Lothhil, BW

[Lilywarrior]

I'm getting more and more confused with every post that you make.

Are you actually the same person typing? Did you not step into this thread saying that people want things handed to them on a silver platter less than two days ago? Did you not call them a bunch of whiners and moaners because they have concerns about a very lengthy Imbued LI grind at level cap which runs along an exponential horizontal plain and doubles with each update (thereby making it pretty impossible for people with a lot of alts to catch up)?

And now you want to get all craft gathering, completely remove the essence reclaimation scrolls (which by the way, can be earned in game now, no need to go to the store), and relic removal scrolls which are now pretty much redundant if you imbue your weapon. It would seem that you do not want to do any grind for essence recipes either. Also, the dailies in Minas Tirith are more to do with getting tokens for armour and for an Empo scroll every few days. But if you had done them at all, you would know that.

It reads to me like you want quite a few silver platters of your own here.

Let's finish this shall we? I don't like you either and who cares. Neither you nor I are going to lose any sleep over it.

Yes, I did say people wanted things handed to without working for it. No, I called this whole Thread a whining session. Actually, it is not impossible to catch up because in the last 3 months I have brought 3 chars to 100 and they are all partially suited for final content. Why did I do that? Because I thought that when this last update came out they would have to MT rep to get the new scrolls from the faction vendors. I have always want the char I am on to be able to gather all crafting resources. I started asking for that on the development forums. I know where I can go to get reclamation scrolls. I have 4 and since I won't buy them I have probably gotten them as Mathoms. In my life I own my car, I own the tires on it too. When I take it in next week to have the snow tires put on I will be given back my fair weather tires because I work for the money to buy them and thus I own them. I will pay the money to have the tires changed but it in no way equals the money of 4 tires nor will it take as long to get the money that 4 tires cost. People are working for the relics and essences hours and days for relics and essences. Once they have them they should not just wiped out. Of course you are aware you can get empowerment scrolls at the skirmish camps as well as from various other vendors. I have 14 empowerment scrolls on a mule so I am not too worried about it. I am not 'officially' at MT yet because, remember, I don't rush to the end of the game so that won't have anything to do except repetition. I ended up there because I wanted the stable master. But I still know that will have to do some. However, right now I am not too worried because I have no intention of getting a 5 piece armour suit until after I see what is coming.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I don't like to be accused of saying things I did not say. I don't think ill of anyone regardless of their age, financial circumstances, gender, race, education, or physical abilities. Oh, and I'm retired. I was simply stating a fact that I certainly do know how to multi task. I never said I was better than anyone else. I don't think I am better than anyone else but I do know I no less than anyone else either and therefore therefore I am arrogant enough to stand up for myself. It certainly looks from your posts you are not that different in this particular area either.

Now we are done.

I do hope you are enjoying your opportunity to be so near to your grandchild. I won't see mine for another 2 years and talking on the phone doesn't really feel the same as spending some time with them in person. I am not making lite polite conversation but expressing a genuine hope that you will have wonderful memories of this event.

[Arnenna]

Not denying it is a grind and a half!

BUT I have found that I am replacing most of my BB jewelry (all gold) with the crafted essence pieces. That does eliminate some grind.

I admit that of my 4 level 100's only 2 are being seriously geared now due to the toll the constant repetition of dailies is taking on my fun. I am still playing them all plus a couple of lowbies simply because well, the LM is fun to blow stuff up with and the both are token mules running the DA dailies to get gold and silver tokens for my RK's gear. My hunter is complete except for 2 elusive trait points which I have been to lazy to do the cross check to find what I missed (not rohan or class quests) that was 3 weeks off the moors steady every day...

I pity people trying to do more than 1 or 2 characters...I really do.

Lothhil, BW

I am considering going for crafted slotted jewels rather than grinding all the BB bling for alts, but it doesn't actually eliminate any grind. It just means we have to replace SoM grind, for essence grind (recipes or the actual essences, which drop in BB's).

[Jillymala]

Yes, I did say people wanted things handed to without working for it. No, I called this whole Thread a whining session.
Actually, it is not impossible to catch up because in the last 3 months I have brought 3 chars to 100 and they are all partially suited for final content. Why did I do that? Because I thought that when this last update came out they would have to MT rep to get the new scrolls from the faction vendors. I have always want the char I am on to be able to gather all crafting resources. I started asking for that on the development forums. I know where I can go to get reclamation scrolls. I have 4 and since I won't buy them I have probably gotten them as Mathoms.

People are working for the relics and essences hours and days for relics and essences. Once they have them they should not just wiped out. Of course you are aware you can get empowerment scrolls at the skirmish camps as well as from various other vendors. I have 14 empowerment scrolls on a mule so I am not too worried about it. I am not 'officially' at MT yet because, remember, I don't rush to the end of the game so that won't have anything to do except repetition. I ended up there because I wanted the stable master. But I still know that will have to do some. However, right now I am not too worried because I have no intention of getting a 5 piece armour suit until after I see what is coming.

So what i'm reading here is that you haven't actually DONE any of the grind you feel others are unjustly complaining about?

[Arnenna]

Let's finish this shall we?

Whatever else you wrote, because I didn't read it, and don't intend to

Yes, consider it finished. You lost me the moment you threw your sob story into the mix and called everyone else inferior because of it. We most likely al lhave sob stories we can tell. I have more than one. Life sometimes throws out lemons - get over it.

Have a very good day.

[Arnenna]

So what i'm reading here is that you haven't actually DONE any of the grind you feel others are unjustly complaining about?

It certainly looks that way doesn't it? I don't think this individual has a clue what's ahead when it comes to maxing out Ili's if I'm honest, but I'm sure they will manage just fine when they get there. Or maybe they will just be like most of us, and start banging their head against a brick wall while thinking, OMG, I see what they meant now.

Then again, maybe not.

[Lilywarrior]

So what i'm reading here is that you haven't actually DONE any of the grind you feel others are unjustly complaining about?

I complete every page in my Deed and Quest book before moving on. I'm sorry if you missed that or that I have 2 accounts or that I don't play a crafting char to raid with so don't care if she or he is raid ready. My first main will complete Osg last two quests tonight and then hopefully move on to MT but first she must find the remaining 5 treasures in Eastern Gondor. My ranged main will be entering DA this weekend or early next week so that is why I am low on Stars of Merit at 2,519 now. She is already fully kindred with DA and and all the instants there because I have a huge amount of tokens from doing the dailies daily. I have 222,818 merits and 68k medallions, 142 DA Silver Pieces, 516 Central Gondor Pieces, and 368 Eastern Gondor Pieces. I also have an XP Disabler so I don't lever beyond the content I am doing. I am organized and efficient, I complete everything I can on level and if I must go back I will. I also help others. I work. I don't do what I don't want to do but I will do what is essential. Grinding is part of the game. It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep. That is why I am able to help others when they need it.

[Jillymala]

I complete every page in my Deed and Quest book before moving on. I'm sorry if you missed that or that I have 2 accounts or that I don't play a crafting char to raid with so don't care if she or he is raid ready. My first main will complete Osg last two quests tonight and then hopefully move on to MT but first she must find the remaining 5 treasures in Eastern Gondor. My ranged main will be entering DA this weekend or early next week so that is why I am low on Stars of Merit at 2,519 now. She is already fully kindred with DA and and all the instants there because I have a huge amount of tokens from doing the dailies daily. I have 222,818 merits and 68k medallions, 142 DA Silver Pieces, 516 Central Gondor Pieces, and 368 Eastern Gondor Pieces. I also have an XP Disabler so I don't lever beyond the content I am doing. I am organized and efficient, I complete everything I can on level and if I must go back I will. I also help others. I work. I don't do what I don't want to do but I will do what is essential. Grinding is part of the game. It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep. That is why I am able to help others when they need it.

So, thanks for confirming you have yet to do all the grinding needed to actually have a fully maxed out and built out char. When it comes to invalidating your point about 'whiners'.. you totally nailed it. Congrats!
I'm glad you are taking your time and playing how you want to personally play. Others also have that right. I play 4 chars for my kin and myself for raids/instances/etc. Explain to me how I can gear and max them all out so that I may be of use to the kin? (My kin is very very active raid and instance wise and we like to be able to play more then one class) Also.. your proud 68k meds mean exactly squat when you need to buy so many empowerment scrolls for multiple chars with multiple LI's. Oh right, then again.. you don't care because you don't raid or need anything maxed, you are a deeder and quest completionist. (nothing wrong with that btw, its' just not how everyone chooses to play)

You just want to sit on that high horse and insult people who don't play your way.. got it....

[Arnenna]

I complete every page in my Deed and Quest book before moving on. I'm sorry if you missed that or that I have 2 accounts or that I don't play a crafting char to raid with so don't care if she or he is raid ready. My first main will complete Osg last two quests tonight and then hopefully move on to MT but first she must find the remaining 5 treasures in Eastern Gondor. My ranged main will be entering DA this weekend or early next week so that is why I am low on Stars of Merit at 2,519 now. She is already fully kindred with DA and and all the instants there because I have a huge amount of tokens from doing the dailies daily. I have 222,818 merits and 68k medallions, 142 DA Silver Pieces, 516 Central Gondor Pieces, and 368 Eastern Gondor Pieces. I also have an XP Disabler so I don't lever beyond the content I am doing. I am organized and efficient, I complete everything I can on level and if I must go back I will. I also help others. I work. I don't do what I don't want to do but I will do what is essential. Grinding is part of the game. It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep. That is why I am able to help others when they need it.

I have two mains that have empty deed logs and have completed everything that there is to complete (except for totally annihilating the instance and skirmish tab - but they are working on that, and progressing well on it). They also "HAVE" done the ILi grind at cap, covered all of Minas Tirith and Pelennor as well. They have all their DA gear, and have no need for 5 slot gear at the moment, because I'm an occasional raider, leaving all the really tough stuff until last. I also have a level 50 RK that runs with an XP disabler. She is currently in Angmar with her leveling group, waiting for the Rift run to happen so she can move onto Moria. I also have 8 other alts at cap, and a handful more that are mules for crafting in order to get around all guild cooldowns and craft for kinnies and friends when they need something. I am efficient and organised too. That two hour grind you participate in each night, is more like a four hour grind for me right now, and if I wish to bring my 8 capped alts up to speed - it becomes impossible. I'm a chronic insomniac, nothing puts me to sleep - not even grind. Oh, and I love helping other people too.

And I'm still fine with taking my scholar out to pick up scholar mats, when I need scholar mats. But that doesn't give me any right to call you a whiner just because you would rather not. So I won't.

I am also fine with the fact that the game isn't all about me, and that there are lots of other people within an MMO, and that they have preferences on how to play, just like I do. I do not think them as whiners when they bring forward their concerns. It is their game, as much as it is my game.

Your references towards others here, and in particular to raiders, are completely off the wall and out of order. Raiders (even though I am not a regular raider) are important to the game. Jillymala (and others like her), who has posted above me is one such player. Her concerns count - a lot, and I will tell you why. She leads, and she teaches, and she helps other people to do what she is exceptionally good at herself. I haven't run with her often, but I have run with her, and without people just like her that exercise patience with others and share their knowledge, people like me (the occasional raider) can't grow. So do us all a favour, and stop daring to call valuable people that have genuine and valid concerns about "real" grind (that you yourself have not experienced yet) names and trying to alienate them.

[Hurin]

I complete every page in my Deed and Quest book before moving on. I'm sorry if you missed that or that I have 2 accounts or that I don't play a crafting char to raid with so don't care if she or he is raid ready. My first main will complete Osg last two quests tonight and then hopefully move on to MT but first she must find the remaining 5 treasures in Eastern Gondor. My ranged main will be entering DA this weekend or early next week so that is why I am low on Stars of Merit at 2,519 now. She is already fully kindred with DA and and all the instants there because I have a huge amount of tokens from doing the dailies daily. I have 222,818 merits and 68k medallions, 142 DA Silver Pieces, 516 Central Gondor Pieces, and 368 Eastern Gondor Pieces. I also have an XP Disabler so I don't lever beyond the content I am doing. I am organized and efficient, I complete everything I can on level and if I must go back I will. I also help others. I work. I don't do what I don't want to do but I will do what is essential. Grinding is part of the game. It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep. That is why I am able to help others when they need it.

It's like a caricature. Brilliant.

[bucko39]

It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep.

You heard it here folks...if you want engaging game play and excitement, LOTRO is not for you! But, if you need help getting to sleep...the mindless, boring stuff in LOTRO is just what the doctor ordered.
Go team!

[BangoTwinkletoes]

I complete every page in my Deed and Quest book before moving on. I'm sorry if you missed that or that I have 2 accounts or that I don't play a crafting char to raid with so don't care if she or he is raid ready. My first main will complete Osg last two quests tonight and then hopefully move on to MT but first she must find the remaining 5 treasures in Eastern Gondor. My ranged main will be entering DA this weekend or early next week so that is why I am low on Stars of Merit at 2,519 now. She is already fully kindred with DA and and all the instants there because I have a huge amount of tokens from doing the dailies daily. I have 222,818 merits and 68k medallions, 142 DA Silver Pieces, 516 Central Gondor Pieces, and 368 Eastern Gondor Pieces. I also have an XP Disabler so I don't lever beyond the content I am doing. I am organized and efficient, I complete everything I can on level and if I must go back I will. I also help others. I work. I don't do what I don't want to do but I will do what is essential. Grinding is part of the game. It is a mindless 2 hour task that I do every night before I go to bed because it puts me to sleep. That is why I am able to help others when they need it.

You must have accidentally streamed yourself whilst accumulating all of that currency....

[siipperi]

200k is nothing on mark side, players could achieve that during 4-8 grinding periods depending on mark booster use, yet you can burn that in blink of an eye and not even max one LI...

And bragging on landscape tokens lol...