Boxing + Farming Should Require Multiple *Subscriptions*

[Gyes]

Do you want me to translate it to you "in spanish"?

I'd love to see you evade simple questions and try to justify your behavior in another language. Please tell me how the devs design content with the intention that everyone will use 12 clients instead of one in Spanish. Or maybe how everyone running 12 clients will be just as easy on the servers as everyone running one client in French. Or maybe you can expound upon the virtues multiboxing adds to the game in German.

Try not to use Google...

[Gyes]

Talking about school, tell me where you graduate so I don't go near that area.

Ethics - like talking about a presumptuous number of 50% making up this make-belief "SSG Resources". Make an actual exaggeration and present it as facts.
Logic - mathematical analysis how multiboxers are a small consumer base yet argue they are responsible for the lag.
Critical Thinking - how there were zero "spawn camping mobs" in North Ithilien and yet the region lags. Then point fingers that it was the multiboxing communinty that caused it.

"Disastrous" in your perspective. Game companies allow it because it is profitable for them. Guess that critical thinking of yours fail you yet again. Choose a different school next time.

Are you also a climate denier? You "argue" like one...

[watevaplz]

I'd love to see you evade simple questions and try to justify your behavior in another language. Please tell me how the devs design content with the intention that everyone will use 12 clients instead of one in Spanish. Or maybe how everyone running 12 clients will be just as easy on the servers as everyone running one client in French. Or maybe you can expound upon the virtues multiboxing adds to the game in German.

Try not to use Google...

What questions did I evade?

First off what content you speak of? Landscape, obviously if items drop there, they are also easy to solo even with just a pet and you are free to group up then the content is available for anyone to finish? Multiboxing or not multiboxing

Dev variety Raid content is something my multibox account don't challenge. I do it faster with an actual group and no headache. Believe it or not I still need to raid to get raid gear and my multibox accounts can't help. Even with the BoA barter items, they can't help my main account.

So again what is the gripe about? You obviously evading the fact that multiboxers where not the cause of these lag or "taking SSG's resources' Even let's say part of the equation is that they contribute, it is illogical to point and ask them to pay more when F2P INDIVIDUALLY are taking more of this "make belief" SSG's resources. Unless of course you honestly believe that 100+ players in The Waste farming reputation 50% of them are multiboxers. Then yes totally agree as a paying customer to ask them to charge ALL OF THEM including F2P that is taking my "SSG's resources". But totally illogical for SSG to do so since this game and it's service is FREE TO PLAY. What is more logical for SSG to do is fix their servers like they just did recently? I'm not suffering any lag and I'm "multibox farming" with a lot of "multiboxers" that should be causing this "lag".

[watevaplz]

Are you also a climate denier? You "argue" like one...

I look things mathematically. So guess where I stand in terms of this debate? Argument base on mathematical and logical perspective and you assume that I deny "Climate Change".

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[greetingsdownunder]

I agree with the OP, multiboxing should require a premium subscription.

i.e. +$5/mo for each client.

If someone wants to box 12 accounts for gold farming, then that would be $15 + $55 from 11 accounts.

$70/mo for gold farming 12 accounts seems fair, imo.

[Hurin]

Talking about school, tell me where you graduate so I don't go near that area.

Ethics - like talking about a presumptuous number of 50% making up this make-belief "SSG Resources". Make an actual exaggeration and present it as facts.
Logic - mathematical analysis how multiboxers are a small consumer base yet argue they are responsible for the lag.
Critical Thinking - how there were zero "spawn camping mobs" in North Ithilien and yet the region lags. Then point fingers that it was the multiboxing communinty that caused it.

"Disastrous" in your perspective. Game companies allow it because it is profitable for them. Guess that critical thinking of yours fail you yet again. Choose a different school next time.

My favorite part is how he keeps harping on that "50%" and yet the other boxing/farming advocate saw exactly what was meant by it, replied "well stated" and moved on rather than engaging in so many obviously specious/spurious/bizarre counter-arguments.

When you can't defend your position on the merits, be obtuse and aggressive instead.

--H

[watevaplz]

My favorite part is how he keeps harping on that "50%" and yet the other boxing/farming advocate saw exactly what was meant by it, replied "well stated" and moved on rather than engaging in so many obviously specious/spurious/bizarre counter-arguments.

When you can't defend your position on the merits, be obtuse and aggressive instead.

--H

I can't defend on what exactly. You were the one being aggressive talking about ethics, critical thinking and logic. So I question yours, what's the problem?

[Hurin]

It's obtuse/specious/spurious to take someone's simplified, illustrative example, that everyone else understood to be exactly that. . . and rail against it for post after post while claiming that it was used in ways it never was (as a "fact", etc.).

Here are more numbers for you to bizarrely attack. . .

Imagine a server with with a capacity of 1000. After 1000 clients connect, it begins to bog down.

Now, that server can handle 1000 individual players/people/souls using it at a time.

Or, it can handle 83 people running twelve clients each.

Your ridiculous harping on "50%" is the same as you reading that and then harping on "83 people" for the next page or two. It's the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

[Hurin]

Meanwhile, if one were to adopt your mode of argument, I would be spending all my time lambasting you for your laughable assertion that there are only three boxers/farmers on all of Arkenstone. Because that's all you've ever personally seen. Something you even stood by when asked to confirm directly.

Which is akin to me saying that I believe that there is only one spider in my attic because I've only ever seen one.

[watevaplz]

It's obtuse/specious/spurious to take someone's simplified, illustrative example, that everyone else understood to be exactly that. . . and rail against it for post after post while claiming that it was used in ways it never was (as a "fact", etc.).

Here are more numbers for you to bizarrely attack. . .

Imagine a server with with a capacity of 1000. After 1000 clients connect, it begins to bog down.

Now, that server can handle 1000 individual players/people/souls using it at a time.

Or, it can handle 83 people running twelve clients each.

Your ridiculous harping on "50%" is the same as you reading that and then harping on "83 people" for the next page or two. It's the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

Let's get to the point, obviously it swoosh by you. If this game had this capacity and allow a play model for free then the problem is not "Multiboxing" it is their data server or even codes. That is illogical, no critical thinking on my part to blame it on multiboxing when there is no limit on FREE TO PLAY gamers to try out the game. In fact I be surprise if all multiboxers outnumbers the F2P free accounts that is logged in and playing.

Next thing you complain about is why your Warsteed rubberbands you and complain it directly to multibox causing you to lag. Right now there is no lag and i'm multiboxing. Prior to update 20 there was no "spawn-farming mobs" in North Ithilien YET it lags. So all of these points to some general direction and NOT because of MULTIBOXING-SPAWN farming. Don't you get it "these resources you speak off" is entirely make belief. Like your bus seated with 6 people OK>

Now if I'm complaining about PC LAG because I'm broke and can't afford a new pc and all of these nasty multiboxing accounts taking "MY PC RESOURCES" Then it is time to get out there and get a job.

[Hurin]

Let's get to the point, obviously it swoosh by you.

Nope, actually it "swooshed right by you" (and only you) where I said that this is extrapolating what is possible as more and more people adopt boxing/farming even as SSG fails to address the server performance issues. You also missed where I stated outright that I regret linking this argument to the recent Update 20 performance issues. Because this discussion and my arguments need not depend on that.

Now if I'm complaining about PC LAG because I'm broke and can't afford a new pc and all of these nasty multiboxing accounts taking "MY PC RESOURCES" Then it is time to get out there and get a job.

Also, guess what. I have a better computer than you.

--H

[watevaplz]

Meanwhile, if one were to adopt your mode of argument, I would be spending all my time lambasting you for your laughable assertion that there are only three boxers/farmers on all of Arkenstone. Because that's all you've ever personally seen. Something you even stood by when asked to confirm directly.

Which is akin to me saying that I believe that there is only one spider in my attic because I've only ever seen one.

I asked you where are the screenshots because LIKE i've said i only found 2 multiboxers. Also I would like to show you players on this zones where you found them complaining about lag

[Hurin]

I asked you where are the screenshots because LIKE i've said i only found 2 multiboxers.

Oh, there must be only two then.

[watevaplz]

Nope, actually it swooshed right by you (and only you) where I said that this is extrapolating what is possible as more and more people adopt boxing/farming even as SSG fails to address the server performance issues. You also missed where I stated outright that I regret linking this argument to the recent Update 20 performance issues. Because this discussion and my arguments need not depend on that.



Also, guess what. I have a better computer than you.

--H

But your argument is that the multibox is taking "SSG Resources" which is already debunked. SO we base it on a "PROBABILITY" not actual "NUMBERS" I can extrapolate too like more f2p players (individually) will take a huge portion of this so-called "SSG resources" causing you to lag. Should SSG start charging F2P because as a paying customer they are taking one spot of that 1000 space in "SSG Make-Belief resources" and totally not because of a badly coded and not upgraded data centers.

LOL At least try to be honest.

[watevaplz]

Oh, there must be only two then.

I only saw two. I asked you to take screenshots and mail it to me. You provided me with none. What does that tell you.

[Hurin]

To be clear. . . when I write:

The overall goal is to make sure that this situation. . .

one player x 1 client
vs
one player x 6 clients

Doesn't scale out to

600 players x 1 client = 600 clients
100 players x 6 clients = 600 clients
-----------------------------------------
= 100 players using 50% of SSG's resources

. . . it is asinine to then demand screenshots to prove that there are 100 boxers/farmers or take that "50%" figure and claim that it's being used as a "fact."

Do you not understand what "Doesn't scale out to" means? It is describing a hypothetical future to be avoided.

Yet for page after page, you've (perhaps on purpose) misrepresented it and spuriously attacked the sound reasoning behind it.

Meanwhile, you see no problem saying that there are only three farmers across an entire server because that's how many you personally counted.

--H

[Hurin]

But your argument is that the multibox is taking "SSG Resources" which is already debunked.

How can something self-evidently true be "debunked?"

When you connect twelve clients, you are of course using twelve times more server resources (CPU cycles, RAM, bandwidth) than you do when connecting one client.

You're just engaging in fantasy now.

Given the rest of what you've said, and your self-serving rationalizations, one gets the impression that reality, ethics, and propriety routinely bend to suit you, in your world.

LOL At least try to be honest.

I think you're just trolling now. Have a good life.

[watevaplz]

To be clear. . . when I write:

The overall goal is to make sure that this situation. . .

one player x 1 client
vs
one player x 6 clients

Doesn't scale out to

600 players x 1 client = 600 clients
100 players x 6 clients = 600 clients
-----------------------------------------
= 100 players using 50% of SSG's resources

. . . it is asinine to then demand screenshots to prove that there are 100 boxers/farmers or take that "50%" figure and claim that it's being used as a "fact."

Do you not understand what "Doesn't scale out to" means? It is describing a hypothetical future to be avoided.

Yet for page after page, you've (perhaps on purpose) misrepresented it and spuriously attacked the sound reasoning behind it.

Meanwhile, you see no problem saying that there are only three farmers across an entire server because that's how many you personally counted.

--H

Been almost 10 years since this game was released so this "hypothetical future" of yours is... give it another 10 years? That multibox will take over the "fantasy SSG's resources" of 50%.

Oh forgot this is a roleplay fantasy world settings you must be roleplaying.... Sorry I've seriously taken you were serious. This was all a joke, right? Candid Camera? What was I thinking!?!?

[Hurin]

Been almost 10 years since this game was released so this "hypothetical future" of yours is... give it another 10 years? That multibox will take over the "fantasy SSG's resources" of 50%.

Oh forgot this is a roleplay fantasy world settings you must be roleplaying.... Sorry I've seriously taken you were serious. This was all a joke, right? Candid Camera? What was I thinking!?!?

It must be embarrassing for you to realize only now how you had been misinterpreting that all along. But, of course, instead of admitting it and conceding, you're now just openly trolling.

Enjoy.

--H

[watevaplz]

It must be embarrassing for you to realize only now how you had been misinterpreting that all along. But, of course, instead of admitting it and conceding, you're now just openly trolling.

Enjoy.

--H

What you must be slow if you think i'm trolling? This game been around for almost 10 years they allow multiboxing. This "hypothetical future" of yours base on exaggerated numbers is more likely not gonna happen.

If you were serious tell us when is it gonna happen that way i can stock up on supplies and stand still / bunker down for the incoming lag.

[Gyes]

I look things mathematically. So guess where I stand in terms of this debate? Argument base on mathematical and logical perspective and you assume that I deny "Climate Change".

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Is that a yes?

[Gyes]

What questions did I evade?

Cut and paste from a couple of my posts...

Do you honestly think SSG wants or expects you to run your little army?
Do you think the game would be better or worse if everyone else ran 12 accounts simultaneously?
What benefit does allowing multiboxing add to the quality of the game?

Please tell me how the devs design content with the intention that everyone will use 12 clients instead of one in Spanish.
Or maybe how everyone running 12 clients will be just as easy on the servers as everyone running one client in French.
Or maybe you can expound upon the virtues multiboxing adds to the game in German.

I can answer them for you, if you like. Just let me know.

[matalan]

I'm just going to reply to a couple of things in response to my first post in this thread, I haven't read all posts forwards of mine, so sorry for that! If themes or whatever are repeated not intended

I'll also preface this by saying I'm not trying to bash opinions at all, I think heated discussion means a lot, people are passionate about the game and both sides have points.

Hurin says:

"That's where the "falling on its face" happens. . . where people assert equivalence between twelve people enjoying the game and a single person enjoying the game while sucking up twelve times the loot/gold and increasing load on the service by a factor of twelve."

"Where resources are limited, twelve people sharing that resource is just intrinsically better than one person hording it."

I think I may be lost a bit here, but the two things you describe, as far as server load is concerned are the same, surely?

12 toons on 1 PC = 12

1 toon on 12 different PCs = 12

The server doesn't "judge" what the toons are doing, if they are in group, if they are from a boxer, it just sends data to each toon no matter what.

----------------------

Gyes says:

"Ask yourself a simple question - would the game (or you personally) be better off if everyone decided to run 12 clients instead of one?"

As I said in the preface, I get the point you're making. BUT you can also think of it like this - would the game be better if 12 times the amount of INDIVIDUAL players were logging in and doing things solo? It would still be 12 times the load on the server, right? AND that would be possible without paying due to the F2P model.


This is not a player behaviour issue peeps, it's a performance problem. Dare I say it a business model problem. If SSG returned to sub ONLY for EVERYONE, I think that would solve things, right? Oh, but no it wouldn't, because the product isn't good enough to justify that for the consumer. Waves of players that were f2p and spend a bit here and there would just dump and leave.


Imagine that for some mad as eggs reason WOW folded tomorrow and ALL the customers decided to play LOTRO.... WOULD THE SERVERS COPE?


No.



LOTRO has not got the population it once had, only SSG know the figures, but we have to be honest, many less peeps are playing now than Rohan, and perhaps less again Moria, but we have performance problems on "new" servers with a small population of players. It's time to ask why to the supplier of the game, and not point and blame players. Like I said if 12 times the solo players showed up and the servers were melting, no argument, but obviously any multiboxer should be punished!


What percent of players multibox? As many as those who raid, or RP, those that do music at festivals - they defo do - evil hoarders of precious bandwidth. BAN THE MUSIC PEOPLE THEY MULTIBOX TO PLAY PAN PIPES!!!!


Silly!


If the game can't handle it the SERVICE needs to change. Simple as that.


I wish you all happy gaming!

[watevaplz]

Cut and paste from a couple of my posts...

Do you honestly think SSG wants or expects you to run your little army?
Do you think the game would be better or worse if everyone else ran 12 accounts simultaneously?
What benefit does allowing multiboxing add to the quality of the game?

Please tell me how the devs design content with the intention that everyone will use 12 clients instead of one in Spanish.
Or maybe how everyone running 12 clients will be just as easy on the servers as everyone running one client in French.
Or maybe you can expound upon the virtues multiboxing adds to the game in German.

I can answer them for you, if you like. Just let me know.

This is the problem I already answered those questions: Just browse up and learn how to read. I hate to copy and paste this 3 answered questions.

I already talked to you about the designed content of landscape and raid.

Now the main problem is the codes and the data servers nothing to do with HOW MANY clients are being used by one player. Because in any calculations YOU CAN MAKE AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF ACCOUNTS with INDIVIDUAL F2P players to try the free to play game which if i use logic your logic and OP "lags the server". If i'm using Hurrin's "Debunked Hypothetical Future" F2P (not just multiboxers) will lag the server.

[Gyes]

This is the problem I already answered those questions: Just browse up and learn how to read. I hate to copy and paste this 3 answered questions.

I already talked to you about the designed content of landscape and raid.

Now the main problem is the codes and the data servers nothing to do with HOW MANY clients are being used by one player. Because in any calculations YOU CAN MAKE AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF ACCOUNTS with INDIVIDUAL F2P players to try the free to play game which if i use logic your logic and OP "lags the server". If i'm using Hurrin's "Debunked Hypothetical Future" F2P (not just multiboxers) will lag the server.

I can read just fine. The fact that you haven't cut and pasted your responses is indicative that they don't exist. Pretty obviously too, since you promised to answer in Spanish. So I'll answer my questions for you:

Do you honestly think SSG wants or expects you to run your little army?

No, of course not. They intend each person to run one account. If they intended you to run multiple characters simultaneously, it would be a built-in feature in the client. Further, most of the game's content is designed to be done solo. If they intended everyone to have a train of 11 LMs and pets, there wouldn't be solo landscape monsters. They'd all be elite masters at the bare minimum. You know, kinda like how instances are.

Do you think the game would be better or worse if everyone else ran 12 accounts simultaneously?

Worse, of course. The servers can barely handle the current number of connections. If everyone suddenly started using 12x the server resources, the servers would implode.

What benefit does allowing multiboxing add to the quality of the game?

Absolutely none. Multiboxers are simply in it to make their own lives easier and more enriched.

Now pay attention, because here's the important part. If there's one thought in moral philosophy that's pretty much universally accepted, it's the idea that you should only undertake actions if you would want them to be done by everyone else. It should be painfully obvious, even to you, that multiboxing fails this test because of the answer to my second question. It's time to drop the pretense. Just admit you multibox because it's in your own personal self-interest and you don't care about the effects it has on everyone else. Own your greed. No one will think any less of you (in my case, because it's not possible). If you've said anything in this whole thread that's true, it's that the kind of exploiting you do is permitted under the current CoC, so take solace in that and keep on exploiting until you either get bored or the devs change the rules. Just stop trying to pretend that you aren't exploiting.