Bullroarer Update 22 (#2) - Preview and Release Notes

[Rakanor]

They need to remove any single buff/effect active that a player has if you either switch your trait line or reset your trait line - else this bug/feature/.. cannot be fixed.

Also, if you are looking into it, it is still possible to get certain War steed buffs if you are not on a war steed...

Clearing buff on trait switch is a good solution for the player that switches traits, however clearing everyone else's would be much more complicated.

Building on your idea though, give all the buffs the out of combat expiry timer along with a 10 second induction for switching trees. 9 seconds duration but 10 seconds to swap, entering combat would stop the induction and leave you in your current traits.

[Oelle]

Just putting in my two cents: cooldown on pet summon after dismissal would _not_ be ok.

As a "collector" of different combat pet appearances, I like summoning different-looking ones for various situations, and I want to keep the ability to quickly change to another pet if I accidentally call a weathered bear instead of wildpaw bear, for example.

Plus, I want to keep the ability to swap between different pets quickly when questing solo in tough landscape, if I change my mind about which one I just called. I don't even know what buffs may reset or not because after Helms Deep DPS increases I stopped even paying much attention to pet skill bars and have them auto-toggled anyway.

Before Helms Deep trait changes, we did not have combat summoning... (unless traited full blue, as capstone bonus). If any changes have to be made to prevent "pet buff resets", I'd honestly rather go back to this old way and give up combat summoning, since that's how the original LM gameplay used to be. Losing a pet in a raid is really no biggie with actual raid fellows fighting alongside... and aoe heals on them would cover the pet too.

just that you know, what I mean:
most petskilldebuffs last 30 seconds.
this means, if you switch around all debuffing pets, you will permanently have active:
-10 or with catmint -20% firemits on target from raven (lasts 1min)
+10% incoming melee and ranged damage from bear (lasts 30s)
+5% incoming ranged critchance from bog lurker (lasts 30s)
5% of damage done converted to heals from ghost (lasts 30s)
plus the ability to forcetaunt whenever you want with litterally zero cd (bear resummon)

there should be a choice which of those effects you want. so clearing debuffs if pet is dismissed should totally happen, imo its the same issue like traitswitching, just that its even possible infight and doesnt even need to be traited for pets.
someone may argue that the LM loses lots of personal dps with switching pets around... but LM doesnt do any meaningful ST dps in raids anyway. Even the strongest bursty skills like lightningstorm are weaker in damage per induction+animation for ST compared to hunters and RK spamming their average dps, especially if you calculate the time to cast AC before to get that bonus damage.

[WorrBinpike]

and while we are at switch-exploits: please fix LM petskills resetting on recall. that just cries "exploit me" very loud.
(I'd even prefer not being able to summon pets infight at all. They are strong enough, if they die infight, your fault for not healing them)

Very interessting what is called an exploit these days. So you decided for yourself that it is an exploit ?

[kickman77]

Very interessting what is called an exploit these days. So you decided for yourself that it is an exploit ?

Exploit: (noun) Something a Lotro player who does not understand gameplay mechanics calls everything they do not understand
Example: "That Hunter killed a mob faster than my guardian he must be using an "exploit""

[Gandalphor]

Just adding this to the "official" thread as well.

I see 3 options here...

1. Reimburse people for spending money and MC on something that was available for YEARS.
2. Ban all of us for using this so-called exploit for these many years. (Let's see how many RPers you're left with in the game). If this was an exploit you would have addressed this sooner, so stop BS-ing the players.
3. Leave it be, because you not being able to fix something in one class is not our fault and not the problem of the 90% of the classes.

[siipperi]

Exploit: (noun) Something a Lotro player who does not understand gameplay mechanics calls everything they do not understand
Example: "That Hunter killed a mob faster than my guardian he must be using an "exploit""

Not kidding. This happens every single day on ettenmoors. It's always either burg, hunter or warg player called out. But someone is always macro exploiting. Or something along those lines. It's usually guys who struggle to find keyboard on their desk.

[BotLike]

There certainly needs to be a mithril coin refund for those who unlocked multiple quickslots.
My minstrel has 6 and i doubt he would even have 3 if anthem stacking wasn't a thing.

Well , we were left to think it was WAI and it mostly likely is after all , since their upcoming change doesn't solve anthem stacking , it just reduces it.
Same goes for other classes popping pre-combat stuff.

How about a 15sec induction to swap trees? This would give the desired effect. It would also mean accidentally swapping to the wrong tree wouldn't screw you over for 1min, you could realize during the induction and stop it. This 15sec induction would be more than long enough to fix this issue.

This is a good idea.

[Gandalphor]

There certainly needs to be a mithril coin refund for those who unlocked multiple quickslots.
My minstrel has 6 and i doubt he would even have 3 if anthem stacking wasn't a thing.

Well , we were left to think it was WAI and it mostly likely is after all , since their upcoming change doesn't solve anthem stacking , it just reduces it.
Same goes for other classes popping pre-combat stuff.



This is a good idea.

I added this note in another thread, which is only about the refund... Minis are still viable healer in yellow and needed in some groups to do exactly that. But if they have 4+ for buffing or something like that, then I think they should get those refunds.

[Oelle]

Very interessting what is called an exploit these days. So you decided for yourself that it is an exploit ?

So you think, the intended design by devs when implementing the HD trees changed from "every loremaster should have one pet active and use its buffs to help the group" to "every loremaster should not fight himself, but dismiss and summon pets all the time if he is in a group to get all possible petbuffs"?
because... thats what design is about: the intended way to play a class.
exploiting is using the ingame mechanics in unintended ways. And I really doubt, that sommoning another pet each 3 seconds and such having all buffs available was the intention of the devs when they allowed to summon pets infight for every traitline.

TL;DR: yes, I did.

And I call exploit on not fighting the bats at the stairs to the final room in Seregost.
And I call exploit on not killing anything in the room before those bats.
And I call exploit on passing by 2 of the 4 bats in the stairway before that.

If all those things were intended, some dev would have done a bad job in this instance. well... he obviously did, concerning the final fight and its hardmode... but thats another topic.

[Wulfdur]

All this talk, switching trait trees, switching pet debuffs on LM, "exploits" are like the last thing that the game needed to worry about. They are nothing big of an importance as they shortly wear out and boss fights' are long enough. If anything, they bring more skillful gameplays at least, especially the LM one.

Not to mention that trait tree CD implementation is so wrong that absolutely solves nothing. Every single class can still put their buffs. You can put even 6 anthems on dps group in raids by simply putting both mini's in DPS group...It will do nothing but annoy everyone when people switched to wrong tree and such. I really hope this poor implementation doesn't make it to live.

There are more urgent issues such as class balance since the Mordor released. It is absolutely ridiculous that nothing serious has being done in Mordor expansion, since the new lvl cap is introduced and whole stat system completely reinvented.

[Herwegur]

just that you know, what I mean:
most petskilldebuffs last 30 seconds.
this means, if you switch around all debuffing pets, you will permanently have active:
-10 or with catmint -20% firemits on target from raven (lasts 1min)
+10% incoming melee and ranged damage from bear (lasts 30s)
+5% incoming ranged critchance from bog lurker (lasts 30s)
5% of damage done converted to heals from ghost (lasts 30s)
plus the ability to forcetaunt whenever you want with litterally zero cd (bear resummon)

Thank you for clarification, I had no idea. To be completely honest though, juggling pets in combat just to have these effects is such a waste of time for me, I wouldn't even try. In a raid, by the time LM finishes standing around flipping between those pets, the boss would be dead anyway. And if the boss is alive and fight is long, LM's attention is more productively suited on the fight itself and group support/off-heals/direct boss debuffs, rather than playing with all this zoo...

I speak only for myself of course, but being an active supporting/debuffing presence in instances is what I enjoy the most when bringing LM on group runs. Giving up that enjoyment just to passively stand and spam pet summons to take advantage of some passive extra buffs would rob me of satisfaction of earning the group victory... just cheapens the experience. So I've no motivation to go that route anyway, even if technically possible.

(And if the fight is really challenging or undermanned... even more reason to stay actively engaged, or fill more open spots.)

[siipperi]

So you think, the intended design by devs when implementing the HD trees changed from "every loremaster should have one pet active and use its buffs to help the group" to "every loremaster should not fight himself, but dismiss and summon pets all the time if he is in a group to get all possible petbuffs"?
because... thats what design is about: the intended way to play a class.
exploiting is using the ingame mechanics in unintended ways. And I really doubt, that sommoning another pet each 3 seconds and such having all buffs available was the intention of the devs when they allowed to summon pets infight for every traitline.

TL;DR: yes, I did.

And I call exploit on not fighting the bats at the stairs to the final room in Seregost.
And I call exploit on not killing anything in the room before those bats.
And I call exploit on passing by 2 of the 4 bats in the stairway before that.

If all those things were intended, some dev would have done a bad job in this instance. well... he obviously did, concerning the final fight and its hardmode... but thats another topic.

[Oelle]

Thank you for clarification, I had no idea. To be completely honest though, juggling pets in combat just to have these effects is such a waste of time for me, I wouldn't even try. In a raid, by the time LM finishes standing around flipping between those pets, the boss would be dead anyway. And if the boss is alive and fight is long, LM's attention is more productively suited on the fight itself and group support/off-heals/direct boss debuffs, rather than playing with all this zoo...

I speak only for myself of course, but being an active supporting/debuffing presence in instances is what I enjoy the most when bringing LM on group runs. Giving up that enjoyment just to passively stand and spam pet summons to take advantage of some passive extra buffs would rob me of satisfaction of earning the group victory... just cheapens the experience. So I've no motivation to go that route anyway, even if technically possible.

(And if the fight is really challenging or undermanned... even more reason to stay actively engaged, or fill more open spots.)

Your job as LM in a group is having your debuffs active.
When your personal debuffs are all active, you can either start doing damage or casting more pet-debuffs.
The time you need to dismiss your active pet, summon a new one and let it attack should be less time than two burning embers plus wizards fire. and the result will be +5% critchance for hunters. that clearly pays off in usual groups. not really fun for the LM doing it, but still effective.
the same for +10% damage for hunters (and melees if there happen to be some).
(obviously, the raven debuff has highest priority)
You'll never resummon pets instead of casting your needed debuffs. Your lore-skills are more urgent in most fights and AC has a higher impact, too.
Its just that your petdebuffs have more effect than you using damaging skills. so the time you'd use to do damage would be for petswitching.
I've seen LMs that just spam their debuffs each 10 seconds or something like that. With the debuffs lasting 45 seconds, thats obviously less effective than "playing with the zoo".

I completely agree in not going for this kind of gameplay. its annoying and I want to fight myself with the group...


/edit: thanks siip, for calling me spiderman I like that meme. It represents everything around exploits very good

[gildhur]

I'm loving the new Rhovanion map. It looks so beautiful and detailed! Is there any chance we will see the other maps (Including the full Middle Earth map) Updated too, so it fits this new design? Would really love this to happen.

I love it! And hate it... Full post here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...l!-But-useless

[DrOctothorpe]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

[Gandalphor]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

So, how come we hear about this only years after it was fine to use and why isn't anyone banned for this? How much bureaucracy do you have that it only now became outlawed?
And how come that any time you can't fix something it becomes unintended (rep drops in the Wastes, item drops in Mordor, Minstrel flop skill, etc.)? The simplest solution was to make the cry of the chorus (which simulates the start of the combat) available only in combat (a bit of an oxymoron, I admit), but that was too much to ask for.

[Oelle]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

If you dont want people to regularly switch traitlines, just take away the buffs they get while doing so.
If there is no exploitable big bonus to win by doing so, people will only switch traitlines when they really want to play in another traitline. As its intended...
having this little cooldown wont change swapping regularly as all exploits remain possible.

[ertr]

So, how come we hear about this only years after it was fine to use and why isn't anyone banned for this? How much bureaucracy do you have that it only now became outlawed?

Unintended is not the same as illegal.

[Arranas]

I wonder if when we get to roll a new toon, will we be able to choose the origins from Eryn Lasgalen, or will it still say Mirkwood? Im holding off rolling my new toon untill North Mirkwood is released :-)

[Avedram]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

What about epic battle trait trees? I understand the reason for adding the cd to regular trait trees, but being able to change between engineer and officer in epic battles is very important, especially when you're soloing or duoing.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

Can you explain this performance issue? What are the symptoms?

I can tell you that if you have a boatload of Identified Legendary Items in your bags that trait line swapping for both Class Traits and Epic Battle traits end up having performance issues.. like REALLY REALLY slow times...

Perhaps that's the issue you're referring to? Or is it something else?

[WorrBinpike]

And I call exploit on not fighting the bats at the stairs to the final room in Seregost.
And I call exploit on not killing anything in the room before those bats.
And I call exploit on passing by 2 of the 4 bats in the stairway before that.

So all players who are doing Seregost with you agree with you ? So you tell me now, that in all groups you are playing doing the bats and all the mobs you were talking of ? Or do you explain to them, that they are exploiting (at least exploit with your opinion).

I guess they are really looking forward to play with you then.

[Oelle]

So all players who are doing Seregost with you agree with you ? So you tell me now, that in all groups you are playing doing the bats and all the mobs you were talking of ? Or do you explain to them, that they are exploiting (at least exploit with your opinion).

I guess they are really looking forward to play with you then.

Actually, in most cases, someone isnt able to get around the first bats, so we fight them.
Usually, we exploit both the staircasebats and the room before.
Just because I see something as dumb/exploit doesnt mean I dont do it. I just do it knowing that I do it wrong.
Its still the faster way to do and I like efficiency

There are so many bugs/exploits in the game, especially in class section, that its impossible to play without exploiting. Thats why I dont care about doing these minor exploits and just go on with them. I'd still prefer them to not being possible.

[siipperi]

We plan to reduce the trait tree swap cool-down to 30 seconds. The primary purpose of the cool-down is to solve a performance issue that too-frequent tree swapping was causing. (Frequent trait tree swapping is also not an intended or supported play behavior.)

If you add 10s induction on top of this while pressed trait changing button you will get rid of most non intented trait swapping and also block several class exploits.

[Sphenforthewin]

So, how come we hear about this only years after it was fine to use and why isn't anyone banned for this? How much bureaucracy do you have that it only now became outlawed?
And how come that any time you can't fix something it becomes unintended (rep drops in the Wastes, item drops in Mordor, Minstrel flop skill, etc.)? The simplest solution was to make the cry of the chorus (which simulates the start of the combat) available only in combat (a bit of an oxymoron, I admit), but that was too much to ask for.

Relax, I think you misunderstood him.