Class Update - Guardians

[Macdui]

Why you need to double tap focus to do parse on training dummy...?

So burn hot timer isn't being used up while going through an improved focus induction. Is not my game but some peeps like to epeen and show off their best parse whatever the circumstance. I suppose they (SSG) need to know the upper limits of what's possible though. As well as the sub par build, gear and execution parses and the mindless one button if they want to how that works.

Mac

[Bhorn_EU]

Have to say I'm very disappointed with this. It does nothing to address what Red Guardian lacks (damage) and instead just goes further to increase what they have in abundance (Survival skills). If you intend to keep the Brutal Charge knockdown and increase Guardian DPS further I would encourage you to look at nerfing Warriors Heart in Redline. The spec is just way too durable to justify much DPS increase right now.

Missed Vastin's quote, but re brutal charge, thumbs up from me and many practitioners of dwarf bowling

[dawaaagh]

What? We're not suggesting there be a damage buff attached to charge; we're suggesting that the Brutal Charge trait be entirely removed and replaced with a +25% base damage on non-bleed skills trait or something in that vein.

Update 22.2 notes say "Brutal Charge should now cause the next skill to crit rather than knockdown (note that it can still be b/p/e'd)"

A +25% base damage increase i would be happy about, not the crit buff that was planned.

[Macdui]

Ok, I've started work on the guardian's 2nd pass. Mostly pretty happy with the first pass, so this is probably mostly going to be modest number tweaks to bring the damage up a bit further.

I am looking at putting the knockdown back on Brutal Charge - it can cause technical issues with boss fights, but generally speaking all modern bosses are immune to it as a result, so.... <shrug>

Aaaand, I have to decide what to do with 'Shield Use', or what to replace it with. Thanks for all your suggestions on this front.

I'm glad to see that some of the shield builds are competitive as AoE builds. I'm a little wary about the sheer number of targets that Guardian's can currently engage however - as much fun as it is to solo lower level dungeons and pull dozens of mobs at once, it also generates a ton of server load to run a 12-man raid for a single character. Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Will be looking over this stuff over the next couple days.

-Vastin

Threat mechanics for five odd years has caused technical issues with boss fights in many of the older boss fights. I'd favour Brutal Charge knockdown if it was a much longer CD and more an emergency skill rather than a common offensive skill. And the buff dropping on a tree swap, for your Server load.

If you removed set bonuses from the game you would stop those times when one or two classes get an exceptional bonus that allows them to do the extraordinary.

Our target numbers are still way behind the yellow champs that we'd have to deal with when tanking, that is if Friendly Hat gets them a raid slot. I see that some original legacies are being changed to the imbued versions, notably on the mini. Non imbued belts with max targets can be used for a swappy to affect more numbers than you'd be happy with. Is it time to update these relic legacies? Maybe in another update.

Mac

[Joedangod]

A +25% base damage increase i would be happy about, not the crit buff that was planned.

Yeah, nobody was happy about that. We outright said we wanted something damage related to replace that trait, we never said we wanted the forced crit.

[Cordovan]

Hey all,

I've been following this thread for a while, and I feel that the feedback is starting to get muddied. The discussion has been really interesting so far, but I think it would be better off in the regular Guardians forum. For this particular thread, I think it would be best if we kept the focus on addressing the devs directly.

Anyway, sorry if I sound like a backseat mod. I just feel kind of antsy because I want this update to go as smoothly as it can. I main a Guardian and usually play red line; I've been frustrated with the broken bleeds (etc etc) for so long despite the patience I've been trying to cultivate by playing this class. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new streamlined bleeds. I always liked the bleeds as a concept, but the old stacking system being finicky and "hard to debug" is... reeaally no joke.

I agree. Remember this isn't a thread to debate each other's opinions. I'll be going through the thread in a bit to cull some posts.

[siipperi]

O
I'm glad to see that some of the shield builds are competitive as AoE builds. I'm a little wary about the sheer number of targets that Guardian's can currently engage however - as much fun as it is to solo lower level dungeons and pull dozens of mobs at once, it also generates a ton of server load to run a 12-man raid for a single character. Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Will be looking over this stuff over the next couple days.

-Vastin

Any class can do that so no reason to focus on it. Guard after changes is significantly worse for this unless you go blue for bolstering blocks and as said, every class can do mass pulls on low level instances. considering there is no payoff to do so nobody in generally does solo low level raids or instances unless its CoS 3 man. I can do bigger pull than guardians posted videos on this thread on hunter and kill stuff faster so seems totally pointless to address that.

[Bhorn_EU]

Vastin, whilst you are gently crafting away at the good old tin can, can you change the damage from shields to whatever our weapon scroll is? Common damage is just so 2009, isn't it

[siipperi]

Vastin, whilst you are gently crafting away at the good old tin can, can you change the damage from shields to whatever our weapon scroll is? Common damage is just so 2009, isn't it

Use shield spikes?

[Macdui]

Yup, crafting can be useful

There's always been mobs that are resistant to or reflect certain damage types. While an LI title maybe going too far, a different spike can be used in combat if you get surprised or forget. If it's really bad switch off auto attack and just use shield skills so the healer can try to keep the lemmings alive.


On the whole though in a tank spec we haven't had too many worries with reflect damage because we never did much damage to hurt us. The scenario played out like the lights going out on biometrics in the first contact in "Aliens" as party members (hunters) disappear one by one. If we are getting viable damage output now could we see the first ever guardian suicide?

Mac

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

I personally have no issues pulling the army in the Fighter of Shadow stance while laughing in the face of evil. The Yellow line Guardian is incomprehensibly powerful in the right hands.The Dangers and mistakes of boosting the stances which do not need boosting at all. The similar scenario with the Champion class as I mentioned before ~ The primary role of the Guardian is to tank , not to carve through the foes as other classes. Be wise with Red stance and Bleeds. I was unable to participate in the round of BETA. Errors and so on..

I sincerely appreciate the hard work,effort,desire and will to improve classes. The idea of removal of the Knockdown is not admirable for me at least. Twas rather unique. I would't have touched it at all.

"Overall skill damage for the guardian has increased substantially. The blue and yellow lines will see some benefit from this through the base skills, but the red line will see the bulk of this benefit, through their tree specific skills and bleed effects" Copied from The Official release notes.

"The DPS of the red line guardian was far too low to make it particularly functional for soloing or as a team DPS member"

It would not use the term" Far too low", Far too low in comparison of other Mega overpowered DPS machines such are the Rune-Keeper,Hunter or Red line Warden.Since I was unable to participate in the BETA and test it personally I can but guess the final term of "Substantially" or the numbers behind it.

Ultimately I would rather see 35-50% Damage increase, rather than 100-150% which is possibly going to happen and Guardian takes the throne again as one of the Ultra strong classes, It already is if you know the class well.

Danger ~ Substantially plus with benefit of blue and yellow line. The issues lies in boosting all of the three Trait Tree lines/specifications. I would leave Fighter of Shadow at side.

To shorten it up, It is not looking good at all. You are further Augmenting the classes,. They are becoming more potent and versatile with each passing year/update.

Think about it; The primary role of the Guardian is to tank, The Landscape farm/DPS might and certainly is {At the moment} It pales in comparison with other classes,but that is the point,It is far more complex, but the game was reached the point when every single class became the ultra DPS Demi God Vala, and now Guardians "lack" such potential which they should , but well. Tis in vain..

Please re-check Thoughtfully the Keen's Blade Raw damage potency before the release.

Kind Regards,

Vanyalanthiriel Vanimelda,High Queen of the Noldor

[Madmanthief]

I never said it should be a sustained heal Siiperri, just that the heals shouldn't be ganked outright to satisfy a certain subset of the playerbase.

How would you all feel about Hammer Down giving a heal based upon a percentage of the damage done and still keep the cd that it currently has, then you can change ToB too either a might or physical mastery increase as suggested by Joedangod.

I wonder if instead of a static amount if the might/physical mastery can increase with the players level by a certain amount per level. Just looking for alternatives here to satisfy more people.

[siipperi]

I hope Vastin considers minor DPS increase, especially to initial hits. Some of us before all this thought peak DPS would be just 40-45k DPS on hunter and so on, however seems now that the goal is 50k and + (hunter, warden, burg and basically champ). This means guard DPS should go up as well 10-15% at minimum. Wardens for example hit over 50k at the moment, while having superior self healing in red line (you should speak with warden dev about nerffing restoration and resolution in red line). I think it would be fair to have closer to 40k DPS as red guardian (which is that ~15%). Still not challenging real DPS but within margin of distance that was the original design intent. Now difference in terms of DPS is about 40% which is imo too much for class that can't really offer any group benefit like LM in their red line.

I also hope he rechecks light classes LI damage ratings on legendary items. It has just shot down the damage of these classes so badly. I don't know what's LM damage at the moment, but compensating 50% lower ratings by buffing base damage is really bad solution. LI damage ratings should be relatively close to each others no matter of the class. Partials are already counted to our parses and balanced those in mind so not like you lose real DPS, because balancing takes account partials... This whole LI thing just means RKs are good ~30% behind top DPS (3-4 classes), minstrels are behind good 50% and LM I honestly do not know, used to be behind 50% by my own testings (but I dont play LM) with #### rotation but that was before tactical relic change, and so on. LI damage rating increase would solve a lot here without breaking difference how light and other classes produce their damage in terms of "LI x base damage" -ratio. It would be really unfair towards physical classes if light classes can get pass with their LIs by not increasing them as much, while for physicals to do same levels of DPS their LIs need to be maxed to last. Because damage rating differential will just mean this will be the case if classes would actually be within 10% of each others, which of course is not the case at the moment.

[Joedangod]

I think it would be fair to have closer to 40k DPS as red guardian (which is that ~15%).

That's a 33% increase over the current highest red guardian parses that have been shown on forums. If you have been parsing higher you need to screenshot the CA parse and upload it here yourself to help give a more accurate idea of where Guards currently stand.

[Gildintar]

Also, I'd like to make sure that real 12-man raids have to run multiple tanks to keep everything 'managed'.

Then the Raid must be designed to be managed by several tanks.
You have several instances where you need to tank many targets.
As long as enough healing and emergency skills are available, groups will always be tanked by one tank.
If the Guardian's targets are missing the Warden / Champ will do the job.
Or there are mechanics that prevent this.


Considering that this year, a level cap increase comes, you should consider how the balance between the classes with a level increase suitably remains.
Equalize the weapen dmg / tactical dmg / heal rating and change Li Legace all to the same rating.
I now it seems boring but you don´t have the man power to balance the classes every level cap.
Better to do it the right way, before rework it a thousand times.

[Bhorn_EU]

Update 3 for guard,
1) We have lost our knockdown
2) 1 self heal on 45 sec CD for 3%
3) 1 self heal for 1 minute CD for 20%
4) 1 self heal for (traited) 73% on a 2 min CD.

That kinda sucks, specially if you are running round in just quest gear, no tomes and maybe no essences. Given just how much self healing champs and wardens and even captains can put out, I think the change to pray on the weak is too much.

[Decrepify]

Update 3 for guard,
1) We have lost our knockdown
2) 1 self heal on 45 sec CD for 3%
3) 1 self heal for 1 minute CD for 20%
4) 1 self heal for (traited) 73% on a 2 min CD.

That kinda sucks, specially if you are running round in just quest gear, no tomes and maybe no essences. Given just how much self healing champs and wardens and even captains can put out, I think the change to pray on the weak is too much.

In exchange, you're doing massive amounts of damage in heavy armour.

Loss of healing is fine. DPS is a lot better, you no longer need crit to apply bleeds. You can still pull multiple mobs if you know what you're doing.

[Joedangod]

There is something to be said for dropping Honorable Combat altogether at this point though. It's a really small heal with a hefty CD that could easily be swapped out for some other DPS relevant trait.

[Decrepify]

There is something to be said for dropping Honorable Combat altogether at this point though. It's a really small heal with a hefty CD that could easily be swapped out for some other DPS relevant trait.

Give Overwhelm the ability to instantly remove all bleeds for a massive damage spike?

[siipperi]

Update 3 for guard,
1) We have lost our knockdown
2) 1 self heal on 45 sec CD for 3%
3) 1 self heal for 1 minute CD for 20%
4) 1 self heal for (traited) 73% on a 2 min CD.

That kinda sucks, specially if you are running round in just quest gear, no tomes and maybe no essences. Given just how much self healing champs and wardens and even captains can put out, I think the change to pray on the weak is too much.

Guardian self healing is still great... My braveheart still heals 172k morale out of 179k morale pool in red line... Which would be over 95% heal. Only thing they need is more stuff focused on DPS output. less on healing. Honourable combat doesnt work atm. But it still should be like 5% heal from each target removed Wound.

[Dorri_Hammerfist]

first of all - I am by no means a pro guardian, just some casual.

I have not tried to do Dor Amarth on my guardian yet on live but on BR it was a catastrophe with full ash (abyssal) set with empowered abyssal essences (70+k morale, 2h axe). 2 Ghash-hai are fine, but 3 with 1 ranged are in realm of "hardly possible"/"impossible" for a casual. Ofc you may argue that I need to use heals whenever off cd and time pulls with cd but try to do that as casually geared player (a big chunck of players) when trying to pick up lore pages and rare Mordor chests in Talath Urui and Agarnaith.
I might be wrong that Thrill of Battle was "nerfed" with 20s cd while Prey on the Weak was buffed back in the day. Now that PotW is useless maybe it would be better to reduce ToB cd?

[Bhorn_EU]

Guardian self healing is still great... My braveheart still heals 172k morale out of 179k morale pool in red line... Which would be over 95% heal. Only thing they need is more stuff focused on DPS output. less on healing. Honourable combat doesnt work atm. But it still should be like 5% heal from each target removed Wound.

As per my original comment, if you have 179k morale pool, you are most certainly NOT in quest gear or a little bit of crafted, you have rank 20 in Vit tomes, and a full set of t10 essences. For the majority of the playerbase, which actually make up the dollars for SSG, those numbers are simply unobtainable, so to base a class update on what, without sounding snide, are the numbers generated by the "elite" few (horrible phrase, I know) is folly; if the top 5% of guards have all the best of the best gear wise and the class rebalance is based on their feedback, then 95% of guardian players feel like they have been given the dirty end of the mucky stick, get fed up with dying, leave the game, and stop paying SSG.

"For the many, not the few" as someone once said.

[Vastin]

I'm looking at bumping the overpower debuff to -10% attack speed - keeping the duration short however. It may not be the sexiest debuff in the dps charts and parses, but its technically very valuable in group situations, esp against bosses. Other than that I'm just bumping the dps on Overwhelm so that it's a solid striker in the rotation.

General initial skill damage for the guardian is going up again to get them closer to where they generally want to be.

Still trying to sort out that Brutal Charge/knockdown mechanic.

Now comes the bit many of you are probably going to be pretty annoyed by:

Guardian AoE Target numbers are generally being reduced to compensate for greatly increased overall DPS, and Challenge in particular is being reduced substantially, with a considerably longer cooldown and reduced targets. I suspect this will initially be unpopular for MT guardians, but I want to make sure that in large, complex encounters, the dynamics of managing pulls are not reduced to a single tank simply pulling and holding all threat for as long as they can be kept alive. My goal is for raid groups in particular (and occasionally 6-mans) be required to field multiple tanks/off-tanks and share aggro management responsibilities to keep the team safe.

Also, as the base DPS of the guardian is going up quite substantially relative to the main DPS classes, Guardians should find it easier to keep ahead of the DPS threat curve once they have grabbed threat. That's the theory anyway. If it doesn't work in practice, I'll certainly be revisiting these changes. The idea is not to make threat management impossible - just to keep it interesting and dynamic, and to encourage some tank-juggling even in circumstances when the mobs are not explicitly using threat-dump mechanics.

-Vastin

[Decrepify]

I'm looking at bumping the overpower buff to 10% attack speed - keeping the duration short however. It may not be the sexiest debuff in the dps charts and parses, but its technically very valuable in group situations, esp against bosses. Other than that I'm just bumping the dps on Overwhelm so that it's a solid striker in the rotation.

So....wait....against what bosses are talking about here? 6 man instances? FI? Raid?
Edit: I assume you mean Blind Rage buff from traited To The King skill in deep red line, right? Overpower doesn't exist anymore. Or is it Valorous Strength talent?

General initial skill damage for the guardian is going up again to get them closer to where they generally want to be.

Hmmm, what exactly would be that "want to be" point? Competitive? I'm certain that with the current build, the Red Guard deals more than enough to handle landscape. Only needed somethings for PVMP, so I suppose it could fit there.

Still trying to sort out that Brutal Charge/knockdown mechanic.

Wishes were already expressed.

Now comes the bit many of you are probably going to be pretty annoyed by:
Guardian AoE Target numbers are generally being reduced to compensate for greatly increased overall DPS....

There was a massive uproar when you removed some AOE targets from Shield-Smash about a year or so ago. I guess people will see this as another call to arms.

and Challenge in particular is being reduced substantially, with a considerably longer cooldown and reduced targets. I suspect this will be unpopular, but I want to make sure that in large, complex encounters, the dynamics of managing pulls are not reduced to a single tank simply pulling and holding all threat for as long as they can be kept alive. My goal is for raid groups in particular (and occasionally 6-mans) be required to field multiple tanks/off-tanks and share aggro management responsibilities to keep the team safe.

Consider designing content around needing multiple tanks rather than nerfing tanks. While this is one approach, it'll only tear new wounds. We'll see how it pans out. Though, I don't think off-tank and tank work in a team in 6 man instances. Additionally, there aren't any other good off-tanks to compliment the Guardian (excluding Wardens, but good luck finding a Warden who doesn't want to DPS).

Also, as the base DPS of the guardian is going up quite substantially relative to the main DPS classes, Guardians should find it much easier to keep ahead of the DPS threat curve once they have grabbed threat. That's the theory anyway. If it doesn't work in practice, I'll certainly be revisiting these changes. The idea is not to make threat management impossible - just to keep it interesting and dynamic, and to encourage some tank-juggling even in circumstances when the mobs are not explicitly using threat-dump mechanics.

-Vastin

While I am seeing where you're going with this, I feel like one thing that should be disclosed is how damage from varying skills results in threat. What are the modifiers, how do they work, damage-in-skill-to-threat rations and everything small bit in between. There was a table made detailing some of the skills, but it's greatly obsolete by this point, I imagine, so some clarification into these numbers would mean a lot.

Edit: What's happening to POTW, Deeper Wounds, Thrill of Battle, Hammer-Down and Honourable Combat? Are they getting buffs/reworks?

[Joedangod]

Now comes the bit many of you are probably going to be pretty annoyed by:...

That's...pretty interesting to say the least. It has gotten a bit silly over the past few years where tanking has mostly just been dependent on how well you time challenge so I'll look forward to this new system. I'm not sure how it's going to play in comparison to the other tanks though. Captains are pretty lousy with aggro outside of their taunts and Beorning aggro is totally non-existent without Thunderous Roar. It'd take some pretty comprehensive reworks to allow those tanks to operate on the same system.

That being said, I think you're solving your brutal charge conundrum with this. Fewer targets means you won't be knocking mobs down in droves and thus the skill would probably lose most of its appeal to those who still want it.



Oh, and before I forget: There's an unimbued Legacy increasing Guardian AoE targets that will probably need to go if you're switching us over to a fewer target, more active threat generating rotation.