Bullroarer Update 23 Preview #6: Feedback Thread

[helgamarie2013]

Bullroarer U23.6



[*]

P.P.S Something that is probably more of a lesser greivance, but why has 'scaled' loot, such as the kind dropping from skirmishes still not been brought up to cap-level? Skirmishes used to be a good source of gearing up / different gear in comparison to the traditional approach. This was thrown out the window with LoE, but why hasn't it been re-looked at?

I couldn´t agree with you more.

Skirmishes were left behind (BTW same for epic battles) some time ago. I have been asking Cordovan time after time, if he is aware about any long term news, plans to revitalize ( revamp them or any new skirmish releases) but so far no promises at all. Quite sad to see that skirmishes have been relegated, probably because there are so many things that the game needs in term of taking care, that developers cant cope with the pace of the needed changes (just guessing)???. That said, I would like to see those low level instances that havent (EVER) been re-scaled to be done so players can keep the joy & fun of running them it at level cap

[Tiempko]

So literaly you make casual leveling last forever.
I see this in other game / eso/ when there was no edn game content and devs tried to slow ppl hiting max level ""fast"".

While I can understand the interest in reaching level cap as quickly as possible.

There are also those of us who look at this game as potentially having 115 (soon, 120) levels of adventures to go through - as long as levels 1 through 115 are kept interesting. Standing Stone provides all sorts of aids that help people level more quickly - XP boosts and the ability to purchase a character at a given level. But these must be built on top of a game that is interesting to those who want to explore Moria, ride with the Rohirrim, and defend Minas Tirith.

I fear that the mid-level content has been made so easy (for the sake of those who care about nothing but getting to max level), that they have forgotten that there is supposed to be a story - and a land filled with adventure - between the Shire and Mordor (and beyond).

Standing Stone has the difficult task of trying to balance the interests of a great variety of players. No play style should be declared the one and only dominant concern. However, I would argue that those who come to LoTRO looking for a land filled with adventure - from one end to the other - warrant some consideration as well.

[Pavlin]

May I suggest the "Valar" level advancing items so you don't have to endure the grind of leveling which, I would bet, is what most LotRO players actually enjoy as they play the content.

For players which want to enjoy content on level we have xp holder stone + several kins like slowtro.
Killing regular mob for 5 minutes ea sounds fun to you ?
I have 8 max lvl characters and 6 of them / including 2 captains/ i manualy leveled with all quests done + all traits/virtues maxed.
I also have 2 low levels which i play and enjoy when not feel like farming cos or bis on ""mains""
You suggest me to pay XX$ or to farm LP for X days for Valard? Only because they decide to increase mobs HP for no reason ? I stil want to know that resaon tho
Ppl enjoying the game ? As those who never did Lang Rhuven because ea mob here have more HP than a RT ? Yea right.
I did that zone regulary and there you hardly see players. Was hard to find felows even in LFF chanel.
If you want ppl to have fun leveling / or doing content/ you add nice mechanics and give mobs varietyof skills, to make them chalanging. Not just double their health.
But seems we have diferent wiev of the things.
Anyway, i hope SSG will take right decision.

Standing Stone provides all sorts of aids that help people level more quickly - XP boosts and the ability to purchase a character at a given level.

Soon they all be behind pay wall.
Or you miss that part ?

[Tiempko]

For players which want to enjoy content on level we have xp holder stone + several kins like slowtro.

I am the founder of one of those groups - Club Éclair on Landroval. And it takes more than an XP disabler. We have to have interesting content - and that has been largely taken away. We complete 12-person instances with 4 people. Carn Dum and Urugarth can be soloed on-level. My level 51 warden goes through the Level 54 special instance in Moria by sweeping the mobs up and slaying them - first one half, then the other.

We play at level + 5 (e.g., we completed the Level 50 content in Shadows of Angmar at Level 45), and that was still relatively easy. (And very hard on burglars who got high resistance at that rate, to the point that nobody plays a burglar in our group.)

Killing regular mob for 5 minutes ea sounds fun to you ?

Often, mobs die so quickly my warden cannot complete a gambit. It was difficult getting my class deeds done because I could not complete gambits to advance the deed before the mob was dead.

I will agree, merely doubling their health is not an answer. They need to be able to cause enough damage to be able to threaten the unwary character. Merely increasing health is not a solution. But, whatever else is done, they have to live long enough to use the skills they are provided.

When we started Club Éclair and there was adventure to be had, I actually saw mobs use a number of skills that I never saw them use before because - in regular play - the mobs died too quickly to use the skills. You may be able to see them start an induction, but they died before they finished. We have then slipped to the point that mobs, even at character level + 5, are not living long enough to do anything.

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

Bullroarer Beta Preview 6 Where Dragons Dwell The caverns of Thrumfall Test&Quick Feedback

The Glass Canon Solo-Guardian Demonstration/Test

The entirely same setup used in the School of Tham Mirdain instance.

Skill Delay/Skill bug/Error messages/Severe Lag: None notable.

Possible Glitch; I have noticed the penetration of the DoTS at lase phase of Ettefang Foulmaw clash. I do not know if his Fire-shield grants 100% Damage Absorption, he fell down before Cavern collapsed. It seems DotS can bypass the negation or I am incorrect. It took several seconds before final confirmation and the acquisition of the loot. To put it simply I am unsure if His shield should protect him entirely from damage BEFORE one weaknes the Pillar.

Peer at the video ~ Around 11:07



Extra: Elite enemies are far too weak even for Tier I instance. Hammer-Down can easily take down Blue signature foe {One shot} Another fast and simple resource instance, Tis what I felt on my Radiant Star Queen of Calacyria.

Update 23 Where Dragons Dwell Thikil-gundu the Steel Keep Guardian Solo Demonstration is currently Uploading, You might want to check my YT channel. I probably wont be able to use forums for today anymore ,at least. Thanks kindly for your time.

[Lanhalt]

What about make standard of hope for tank line (change phisical mastery to tactical mitigation)?

Devs please, cappy needs attention.

All rating buffs must be scaled. Dps need be raised x3, heal x 10. Captain with shield needs 14 essence of phisical mitigation and 22 essence of tactical mitigation to reach t2 caps.

Captain is unplayble in curent update.

Nice. In Mordor and Erebor/Eryn Lasgalen, it was already a pain the ### to do the quest without an optimal stuff. It was unplayable for capi, I died nearly everytime I had more than a mob on me (I had 330 stuff at the time, which is not the best, but not the worse). It only began to be fun when I got near physical mitig (before that, I had to do everything in yellow spec, and it took forever to kill a mob). Now you're telling me it's gonna be worse in u23? I'm sure this depend a lot the class, but still when I see people complaining it's too easy because their full caps dps character has it too easy, I'm just "of course it is", you're a freaking hunter (example taken randomly) with full caps and the best stuff. (and you complain when you get nerfed a little). Isn't there a way to balance that?

I know it's mainly end content player that participate to the forum and Bullroar test, so the feedback from the other part of the players is not that strong, but maybe you should make so casual players can also enjoy the game. Because a lot of casual players find the whole essence thing too time consuming to begin with and just want to play without having to care about more challenging mechanics. But a part of the classes needs it at least to some extent to be viable. No wonder you lost 10% of player since mordor (if that number is real).

Then there is the 2h for a 6 man instance. you want people to stuff through instance, for officially pushing people to make content. But you lock the number of entries and make 2h six man instance, with only 4 bosses and you spend most of the time killing trash mobs? You realise the reason non T2 people ignore Mordath is because it's too freaking long for what it gives. So now have to do a 2 hours instance everyday to maybe get some interesting stuff. You make it very hard to get the best stuff, I can get that. But still, in the meantime, you decrease the max dps by 40% (500% to 300% / +400% to +200%) while keeping the same range of caps, increase the monster life, make it so you can't reach as many caps as before and make it harder to get the best stuff. I can forsee it, a lot of people just wont care about the instances. You want to make a 6 man instance that last 2 hours. Fine, make an instance like Carn Dum, with a lot of bosses, and item worth it.

And there also is that.

• Gear bonuses for mid level ranges (particlarly 50-105) have been reduced ~20% compared to later levels to compensate for their better itemization budgets.
• Mob health pools in the mid levels have been increased moderately.

What do you call moderately? you just make it so it takes longer to kill a mob. Why? It doesn't make it more enjoyable, it doesn't bring any challenge, it's juste the same freaking thing, but longer (and as I said earlier, taking longer to kill one mob is just annoying not challenging). You want people to lvl slower? Just decrease the Xp given a little. Here, it just make the questing more boring. It's already pretty difficult to make instance content at mid lvl, because most people in those area are rerolls.

When I see all the feedbacks, I have one question :

Do you want to push the players away?

[Pavlin]

Often, mobs die so quickly my warden cannot complete a gambit. It was difficult getting my class deeds done because I could not complete gambits to advance the deed before the mob was dead.

Plain lies. Sorry. You sure you dont hit criter like fox or snake ? Because even on my capped warden goind back and doing low lvl deeds require more than one gambit builder to 1 shot lvl 34/45 mob.
I do have wardens you know. Both in mid and end game range. Pls send me video of you killing ONE / just one/ mob with gambit builder.
About soloing 3/6 man. Warden can do it yes . Yellow captain too/ will take forever tho/ but this is the same at endgame. Even if they double mobs hp this wont change, just time to do it will be longer. Increasing the dmg is no way, mobs 2hit kills you anyway. Game have more than one tier you know.
About mobs dieing fast. Mmmm remove the hunter from your fellow if you want chalange.
I remember many areas where i needed to kite on my beor warden rk lm or guard, and hunters just 1-2 shot elites.
So yes, i call you a liar. And i`m prety sure you cant solo / warden or not / the dungeons you speak about / on level. Even with raid gear.
Usualy i wont care about your lies tbh. But when they are given as feedback ... i cant stay silent. Sorry. Nothing personal

[CaerArianrhod]

Captain with shield needs 14 essence of phisical mitigation and 22 essence of tactical mitigation to reach t2 caps.

Captain is unplayble in curent update.

Agreed, it should really have been this from the start (Tactical Mitigation instead of Physical Mastery on Standard of Hope).
In terms of your other findings I haven't had much time to test today, but I wonder if Guardian, Warden, Beorns, Champs running tank spec's are in a similar situation.

Everyone is in the same situation. Reaching some of the Caps is impossible with the current gear (362-366) even if you have the 370/376 gear from the first beta, you can not reach the caps.
You may reach one cap, but then you have no space left to take care about other stats.

Not being able to reach the caps with normal landscape/reputation or vendor gear would be okay as an idea, but once again the implementation gone terrible wrong.

My test guardian could reach 55.3% physical mitigation with iLvl 370 teal Armour and blue skill tree. After i used every virtues etc. with tactical mitigation i only could reach 32.3%.
If i would like to have tact. mit. at least at the same percentage as phys. mit. i would need ~110K more, that means 15.6 tactical mitigation essences (the yellow one), for what we have max 18 slots.

My test LM with the best available gear from 1st beta (only iLvl 375/376 gear) could reach only 34.7 tactical mitigation (skilled for damage, 37.1K will, virtues, etc. etc.) and 32.1% phys. mitigation without essences.

My test Beorning: mixed teal gear from iLvl 362 up to iLvl 365, skilled for healing: tactical mitigation: 32%, physical mitigation: 36.3%. also here i used every virtues etc. etc. to get more mitigations.

All this sow two thing for me:
1) the general approach of SSG making content "harder" aka slower and baleful long. (SSG probably would say, "we will have more opportunity to make further balancing" )
2) the totally unbalanced state of the stats and their contribution

[CaerArianrhod]

Bullroarer Beta Preview 6 Where Dragons Dwell T

Can you please write with normal font-size?
If you need bigger font-size to read the text on screen, they are many better ways to achieve that, than abusing my eyes and making me want to put you on my block list.

[Siddharta]

Btw i can't see any notice about "favoured loot system mechanics" ? Could any dev comment on this?
Are you going to put it on live without testing or it is forever gone? Because this was the only hope to get at least something while running new instances.

Can you please write with normal font-size?
If you need bigger font-size to read the text on screen, they are many better ways to achieve that, than abusing my eyes and making me want to put you on my block list.

I use some good forum features

[Tiempko]

Greetings, Pavlin

I am not seeing much a need to prove things to you. Standing Stone will be making the decisions and they have their own ways of measuring the merits of certain concerns. For example, I am certain they failed to notice that your statement, "Killing regular mob for 5 minutes ea sounds fun to you?" was a gross exaggeration.

One relevant fact that the developers may not be able to draw out of their database is that the advice to play stupidly in order to make the game more challenging is not a viable option.

I know that I can strip down to my skivies and use a dull butter knife and make the battles more challenging. However, that is not an adventure, that is a farce. Marketing LoTRO as a farce rather than an adventure story, I believe, will not be successful.

There is value in finding genuine adventure in Moria, Rohan, and Gondor - or other areas that a given player might see as their favorite part of Middle Earth. Or in enjoying the whole story from Shire to Mordor without as opposed to rushing ahead as quickly as possible to the final chapter of the final book. So, I . . . and others I am aware of . . . am grateful for efforts to that would restore some of the adventure to rest of the story.

[NavarreBlood]

Everyone is in the same situation. Reaching some of the Caps is impossible with the current gear (362-366) even if you have the 370/376 gear from the first beta, you can not reach the caps.
You may reach one cap, but then you have no space left to take care about other stats.

Yeah I think the way that core stats like might/agility/vitality/will differ by armor class is pulling all this away from any kind of real balance. It is much easier for light classes to get near full mits with a dps build than for a heavy to do the same.

Vitality gives tac mit for light classes but afaik doesn't for medium and heavies. They both should get tac mit - I get around 20k tac mit on my light minstrel class for free when in healing build. Heavies and mediums should both get tac mit from vit.

Might classes sort of get the shaft - agility classes get crit which is a universally useful stat. I think might should give might classes phys mit to make up for this dispairty and to help the heavies get closer to reasonable mits (most are 60% classes).

I'm not sure it's about reaching caps or maxing out mits as it is about having a reasonable amount of mits for a given armor class with a full set of armor. Light armor classes can get 30-40% mits by adding zero essences. Medium and Heavies can't get anywhere near that from the base gear stats - so that is clearly not balanced.

[squirle]

Guardian lvl 60 38 trait points in blue. Mix of scaled and bb items. So mostly might + vitality.

Instance School of tham midraim lvl 60 solo.

Difficulty - Too easy
Damage - too high, auto attack afk killed the mobs
Survivabilty - too high 15k morale didnt drop under 12k without using either catch a breath, warriors heart, juggernaut. Just the normal rotation.

Examples, sweeping cut for 600 damage on mobs with 4,500 morale
Shield swipe for 1000 damagec

Beorning lvl 60 33 trait points in red. Moria set armour and mix of bb jewelry and instance

Instance School of tham midraim lvl 60 solo.
Difficulty - Solo 1-2 groups
Damage - Feels on par
Survivabilty - Taking enough damage and pay attention. Considering this is solo. Too high.

Same scenario, Yellow line bear
Heals too strong, damage on par, surv too much healing

Hunter level 76, red line 41 points Ilvl 60-70 quest gear
Landscape level 72 mobs, 1 swift bow + quickshot is dead - too easy
School Damage and survabillity feels ok

Hunter level 52 red line Ilvl 25-35 undergeared
Landscape Chamber of xroad - Feels the same as live
School, Feels like playing a hard solo instance. Too easy

Minstrel level 34 red line
Fornost solo, slaughtered by 3 mobs
Iorbars peak solo, got killed, but feels like a 3-man.

Hunter level 120 with 115 T2 gear equipped, redline
Sambrog, got killed
School, With full skill use can kill the groups. With 120 gear probablly on the easy side.
Landscape in ered mithin. Feels slightly too much and far too easy to survive. Fresh 115 on his way through mirkwood might find it solo friendly.

Summary
Level 35 feels correct. Landscape could be harder for me, but it feels solo friendly. You get to use your skills
50-60 feels too much damage for undergeared characters. If geared you're nearly immortal with a revamped class. Beorning feels like live.
Level 74 feels like 50-60, but a lot closer as one might expect.
Level 120 with 115 good gear landscape too easy, instance feels okish.

[Lanhalt]

Summary
Level 35 feels correct. Landscape could be harder for me, but it feels solo friendly. You get to use your skills
50-60 feels too much damage for undergeared characters. If geared you're nearly immortal with a revamped class. Beorning feels like live.
Level 74 feels like 50-60, but a lot closer as one might expect.
Level 120 with 115 good gear landscape too easy, instance feels okish.

Dude, half of your examples are Hunters. Low lvl mene is pretty storng, that why with Hunter, they're the most used classes for point rerolls. Hunter is never a good class to decide if it's too easy, because compared to other classes, hunter is a beast. If you have to align the difficulty for hunter to be hard, most other classes will be unplayable. You want difficulty, try playing something else than hunter or beor (overpowered as hunter, but still pretty decent).

[Tybur]

This change has done some weird things to the Champion, my bleeds deal the same damage, and every thing else got nerfed, what results in my bleeds dealing more damage then most spells. (Bleed damage is not effected by weapon dps, this should result in a massiv buff to Wardens)
Also the third attack of Brutal and Ferocious strikes deals much more damage then the first and second attack.

With this Bullroarer build, we accidentally introduced a bug into Champion damage while attempting to fix the skill delay. This means that you will likely still see skill delay when dual wielding, and your skill damage numbers (but not bleed damage numbers) will be way off on the first two attacks on any skill (this bug did not affect any third attacks when dual wielding).
Thank you for pointing out the problems!
We have already addressed this bug in our development environment (to address skill delay and restore damage output for those first 2 attacks).

-Tybur

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

With this Bullroarer build, we accidentally introduced a bug into Champion damage while attempting to fix the skill delay. This means that you will likely still see skill delay when dual wielding, and your skill damage numbers (but not bleed damage numbers) will be way off on the first two attacks on any skill (this bug did not affect any third attacks when dual wielding).
Thank you for pointing out the problems!
We have already addressed this bug in our development environment (to address skill delay and restore damage output for those first 2 attacks).

-Tybur

Wait...

What?

I'm curious to know how skill delays have anything in common with damage in the code.

[Vastin]

Regarding Runekeeper dps, it is looking pretty anemic from our point of view, so they'll be looking at a buff shortly to get them back to par.

-Vastin

[Tybur]

Thank you for your detailed feedback!
We agree, and are looking into low Rune-keeper damage output as part of our ongoing class balance adjustments.

Good time of day!
As I've already mentioned in this thread about previous beta state (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...beta)-babyrage), RK as a DPS-class now is very weak (as a healing class it is weak as well though).

In this current beta my RK's best parse (among 30 tries) was this:

Seems about the same, except for now my mits dropped to 76k (which is 27,4%) in order to get tact mastery and crit rating almost capped, altogether with having 18% finesse.
I'm quite fine with low mits, as that's what you intended to do in this beta.

What I'm upset with is that 25-26k dps is the best you can get as an RK, having all your dps-stats capped AND also having best gear you can get in an upcoming update so far.

Yes I see, you're going to "create more space for upgrades in the cycle (instance/raid)" but with best gear (which is increadibly hard to get due to kinda random drop AND not being wanted in a fellowship due to low damage) and capped dps-stats, making 25-26k dps you will hardly even be able to run such content as an RK.
I loved my RK and I'm gonna miss it a lot since I'm 100% sure an RK won't be viable in u23 instance and raid content at all.

[zipfile]

Regarding Runekeeper dps, it is looking pretty anemic from our point of view, so they'll be looking at a buff shortly to get them back to par.

-Vastin

coughscaptain DPScoughs

All aside, will this extend into healing as well?

[Drizzels]

Regarding Runekeeper dps, it is looking pretty anemic from our point of view, so they'll be looking at a buff shortly to get them back to par.

-Vastin

That buff should happen with u23 launch and not with the rk class changes in 2019 or later!

[Tiempko]

Dude, half of your examples are Hunters. Low lvl mene is pretty storng, that why with Hunter, they're the most used classes for point rerolls. Hunter is never a good class to decide if it's too easy, because compared to other classes, hunter is a beast. If you have to align the difficulty for hunter to be hard, most other classes will be unplayable. You want difficulty, try playing something else than hunter or beor (overpowered as hunter, but still pretty decent).

This data is still useful in determining whether something has gotten harder or easier.

I play with a Level 51 warden and minstrel. I solo the School and Library at my Level 52 repeatedly. There is no chance of defeat, but I do have to pay attention. I skirmish solo using the settings “duo, Tier 2, Level 54” - I almost never lose.

[Hephburz-2]

Regarding Runekeeper dps, it is looking pretty anemic from our point of view, so they'll be looking at a buff shortly to get them back to par.

-Vastin

@Vastin/Tybur any news about the landscape currency cap???

[maartena]

Thank you for your detailed feedback!
We agree, and are looking into low Rune-keeper damage output as part of our ongoing class balance adjustments.

In my opinion the RK has been weak since the release of Mordor, and the much more difficult playing field. While most classes got through Mordor in a breeze, the RK was the one I had a real problem with in regards to survivability. Damage output was too low to take on more than one mob at a time, and it wasn't hard to die when two level 115's ganged up on you. I actually stopped playing my RK because dying over and over and over again to get a quest done wasn't what I had in mind. At some point, I even parked my hunter in the same area.... logged him on, killed all the mobs, quickly switched to the RK parked there as well, and completed the quest.

RK healing output is pretty dismal, and RK dps is pretty dismal, right now I would say they are probably the most useless class out there. I switched to playing my loremaster again, which is a load more fun at level 115.

[Vastin]

Bah. The LI tactical legacies weren't properly updated for the new range in U23, so all the tactical classes were suffering. We'll do a quick patch on them to get them up into the proper range, and then follow up to see where they are.

I need to move those values over into the same chart as the rest of the core damage progressions so that they aren't so easily overlooked next time. :/

-Vastin

[Feraxks]

At some point, I even parked my hunter in the same area.... logged him on, killed all the mobs, quickly switched to the RK parked there as well, and completed the quest.

Virtual fellowships for the win!