Rings of Power

[Radhruin_EU]

A mixed bag for me. I enjoy seeing Middle-Earth on screen and will watch all episodes unless I die. But...

There's no denying some or many things in the show suck a lot. The showrunners' lack of experience are showing in my opinion. The constant mysteries around characters and events may hook a 10-year old but the writers are quite frankly insulting majority of the viewers' intelligence. That is not what makes a good story. Nor is unrealistic travelling (read teleporting), weird and unrealistic actions/words of characters that seem to have been written in only to make the plot flow forward or meaningless fan service (balrog show off, why?).

Ep 6 was taking the show to the right track but Ep 7 was pretty bad. It's not that I don't value a story unless it's an attention grabbing action piece but this one was all over the place. I also get that they have to keep following the different story arcs but they once again managed to raise more questions than they answered (mind you, the teasers published by Amazon marketing team prior to ep7 let us believe there would be answers coming). Why did none of the main characters die other than Ontamo? What's up with Bronwyn and her being almost immortal? Why the fake death again? Is there going to be one per episode? They were all physically quite close together when the cloud hit so how did some of them suddenly end up very far from the rest? Wasn't Halbrand supposedly gravely injured in the tent? He needed "elvish medicine"... really? How was he then able to get on a horse, smile like he's in paradise and then supposedly ride who knows how many days over to the Elves? Sauron or not, very bad writing overall. And these are just a few examples.

I hoped for a better show.

Ah, but Btonwyn is one of these 'modern' strong female characters, so there's no keeping her down! Massive blood loss? Nah, up and about in no time and looking fresh as a daisy. Inch-wide gash right through her shoulder from that broadhead arrow? Nah, she can use that arm to hug Theo without so much as a wince. Orc-arrow, when Orcs are known for putting poison on them? Conveniently forgotten. Volcanic eruption? Nah, you'd never know she was even there so that makes the death fakeout even more annoying. Meanwhile they need an excuse to get Halbrand off to see the Elves (obvious plot device is obvious), and as you say never mind how far it is, how long it'd really take to get there (watch them 'teleport' hundreds of miles, I bet you) or how he should be too sick to ride, and riding would absolutely hurt like hell and aggravate the wound. (Of course, if Halbrand is Sauron he could totally be faking it),

You can, err, 'look forward' to seeing plenty more of Bronwyn if she's going to Pelargir, because the plot's going to bring Elendil & Co. back there (it's his lot who build the haven at Pelargir, you see) and so she'l be right there.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

There's no denying some or many things in the show suck a lot. The constant mysteries around characters and events may hook a 10-year old

i think this is possibly the issue that you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

This series isn't aimed only at those who would spend a decade and a half playing in a Tolkien world and who read all the books and many of them multiple times. They are obviously mostly aimed at a newer audience, ones who may come to the books because of watching about tales in the second age.

There are also those who I certainly know that have played Lotro but have only read Lotr and the Hobbit but now because of this series are forming an interest in learning about Melkor and some other of the references to the first age and so it is helping to bring in more readers of Tolkien which can only be a positive.

This isn't a closed club for the snooty purist - there is room for all sorts of ways into this world.

As I have said before, If you don't like it - have your say and then be gracious enough to accept that others have an opinion as well.

[Echoweaver]

This likely has been said in this thread, but I didn't see it in my scan of the last few pages, so I thought I'd reiterate it:

If it's not in the appendices of The Hobbit + LotR, the showrunners can't use it. That means what they use to fill in the gaps will be their own creation, not stuff from other publications of Tolkien. That means this show is going to contradict established lore. It literally has to. They can't use the stuff they don't have license for. They have to make up something that looks different from the stuff they're not allowed to use.

LOTRO has to dance around this stuff all the time. It's where we get dwarf houses that are not in lore and so forth. And of course the cute little dance around the names of Isildur's sons.

I'm pretty comfortable with that. It means RoP is an entirely different creative endeavor than the LotR movies, where there weren't any story surprises if you read the books. In this case, we don't know how a good half of the plot threads are going to turn out, and several are going to loop back to reconnect with lore in ways we don't expect.

I don't like all of it, but my gripes haven't kept me away. Overall, I'm really enjoying it.

I don't know if there are any folks on this thread interested in doing something other than flaming each other over whether to show is worth watching or not, but some thoughts:

I really dig Adar. An adversary that is both elf-like and orc-like, and who views the orcs as beings worthy of control of their own lives, is a nice turn within Middle Earth lore. Tolkien mentions that the first orcs were created by Morgoth by twisting and torturing elves, but to my knowledge, he didn't expand on that.

Some folks have suggested that Halbrand is Sauron in disguise. I hope not, because Halbrand expresses vulnerability, and I don't think a guise of Sauron can do that. So I'm going to assume he is not. The fact that he's headed off to Lindon at the end has me wondering, though. Why do we need to get him to Lindon? And isn't it interesting that we didn't actually see him take that injury? I don't think Halbrand is headed for good things. Some folks theorize he'll become a Nazgul, which seems reasonable. One fan I talked to theorized that he'd be the lord of the Oathbreakers, and I love that idea. One thing I'm pretty sure he's not is actually king of the (ex) Southlands.

Now that Mordor has been founded, it sounds like our refugees are off to found Gondor. That would make Isildur the, "king we were promised," not Halbrand, wouldn't it?

I have some reservations about the connection between mithril and the light of the trees, but I'm rolling with it. Mithril was always a pretty supernatural metal anyway. Making it explicitly supernatural doesn't seem like a huge stretch. It looks like the sample that Elrond kept with him when he was thrown out of Moria would be enough to make several rings.

[Radhruin_EU]

i think this is possibly the issue that you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

This series isn't aimed only at those who would spend a decade and a half playing in a Tolkien world and who read all the books and many of them multiple times. They are obviously mostly aimed at a newer audience, ones who may come to the books because of watching about tales in the second age.

There are also those who I certainly know that have played Lotro but have only read Lotr and the Hobbit but now because of this series are forming an interest in learning about Melkor and some other of the references to the first age and so it is helping to bring in more readers of Tolkien which can only be a positive.

This isn't a closed club for the snooty purist - there is room for all sorts of ways into this world.

As I have said before, If you don't like it - have your say and then be gracious enough to accept that others have an opinion as well.

Pity you ignored the rest of what he said.

How does any of this excuse the show's awful writing? There were no lore points raised there (unless you count MIddle-earth being big and the characters 'teleporting' around in a way that ignores time and distance) so that remark about "snooty purists" was entirely uncalled for. If you're going to make remarks like that, don't talk about being 'gracious'.

[DKenny]

This likely has been said in this thread, but I didn't see it in my scan of the last few pages, so I thought I'd reiterate it:

If it's not in the appendices of The Hobbit + LotR, the showrunners can't use it. That means what they use to fill in the gaps will be their own creation, not stuff from other publications of Tolkien. That means this show is going to contradict established lore. It literally has to. They can't use the stuff they don't have license for. They have to make up something that looks different from the stuff they're not allowed to use.....

Fair enough. But then, for example, we're not going to see "the history of Numenor unfold" in the series, because they can't do that. Tolkien wrote about that history, but the show can't use it, so we're going to see original fiction with some of the names from the Appendices applied to it.

[Echoweaver]

Fair enough. But then, for example, we're not going to see "the history of Numenor unfold" in the series, because they can't do that. Tolkien wrote about that history, but the show can't use it, so we're going to see original fiction with some of the names from the Appendices applied to it.

It'll be more than a couple of names, I think, but yeah a lot of stuff will directly contradict what Tolkien wrote in other publications. That stuff can't be licensed. The only stuff that can be licensed is the stuff they have.

We know that a lot of detail of the end of the Second Age is in the appendices. I more recently read the Numenor essay published with the Silmarilion. I have my copy of RotK out and am going to take a look at what they have to work with.

[Radhruin_EU]

I really dig Adar. An adversary that is both elf-like and orc-like, and who views the orcs as beings worthy of control of their own lives, is a nice turn within Middle Earth lore. Tolkien mentions that the first orcs were created by Morgoth by twisting and torturing elves, but to my knowledge, he didn't expand on that.

The Elves who were 'remodelled' by Melkor and Sauron into the first Orcs (in that version of things, anyway, Tolkien went back and forth on where Orcs came from) were Avari, who never made it to Beleriand so the show's take doesn't work within 'real' lore. The show's significantly different anyway because it seems to have done away with Dark Elves as a separate category. The Orcs were made long, long before the Noldor returned to Middle-earth and were there to attack them when they did.

Some folks have suggested that Halbrand is Sauron in disguise. I hope not, because Halbrand expresses vulnerability, and I don't think a guise of Sauron can do that.

Unless they're trying to do what they did with the Orcs and make Sauron a somewhat sympathetic character, not so bad once you get to know him.

Now that Mordor has been founded, it sounds like our refugees are off to found Gondor. That would make Isildur the, "king we were promised," not Halbrand, wouldn't it?

They're off to Pelargir so they'll be the locals who end up as vassals to the Dunedain. Pelargir proper (the haven that was still there in LOTR) was founded by Elendil & Co., so that'd presumably happen at some point (which is probably why Bronwyn and gang are going there, as a reason to keep them in the picture). So you just know something's going to happen to Halbrand

I have some reservations about the connection between mithril and the light of the trees, but I'm rolling with it. Mithril was always a pretty supernatural metal anyway. Making it explicitly supernatural doesn't seem like a huge stretch. It looks like the sample that Elrond kept with him when he was thrown out of Moria would be enough to make several rings.

It doesn't work as 'real' lore at all because they've used a Silmaril as the source of it, we know what happened to all three of those and that ain't it. Also, the Rings of Power weren't all made from mithril (Galadriel's was, Elrond's was made of gold and so of course was the One Ring). Also, the idea of the Elves running out of 'light' is a big change, what the Three Rings were meant to forestall was weariness of the world and keeping the weight of time off the Elves' shoulders, preserving them and their realms from gradually 'fading'. Gradually, note, not in the show's "we've got to fix this by the Spring" sort of way. Lorien fades rapidly once the Three Rings lose their power because several thousand years catch up with it in a relatively short time.

[TesalionLortus]

They have long life, as in, a normal life, just like every other human, which means they too can die in battle, from injuries, sickness etc. Lifespan has nothing to do with how long they live. They can live up to 300 - 400 years, as long as they don't die before that of something like sickness, accident, or battle.

The average lifespan for human beings out in the real world is 70 - 85 years, but, they can still die at any age between that and the day of their birth.

Numeronean history is unfolding slowly in the series. We already hear of long lost relations with the elves and I think there will be plenty more on that to follow.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, their lifespan is 300-400 years, which is like a wonder from the perspective of a regular man - this was kind of like... the main theme behind Numenoreans and you're saying that's not something the show should actually focus on here and bother to mention?



There is no Numenorean history here, and whatever there is was largely subverted. Here, key things behind Tolkien Numenoreans:

- Long lifespan and being gifted the island by the Valar, kind of a big deal and key element
(none of which mentioned in the show... except for Miriel lashing out that "they earned what they have" but that doesn't make any of it clear, so no, these things were not established AT ALL)

- They received many gifts from elves at first - so elves helped them to thrive, perhaps taught them important stuff, not merely just as friends and guests but as teachers and benefactors too
(this is something the show did hint at... somehow and mostly visually but hardly anywhere near close to important and hardly any context for it; there was even that scene when Elendil started to talk in elvish and wanted to share some background information about this rich history but... guess what, powerful warrior Galadriel wouldn't have any of it, "take me where I need to go, I'm no softie, where my revenge!")

- Ban of the Valar so they still gotta deal with mortality, which is the gift of all men. So the key element and theme of their story and tragedy is still missing here. Like... seriously? Not even once highlighted yet? This is a joke, really. Also, remember what I said about the creators, they knew all the right things to say to the fans they engaged in talk with and mortality, as they admitted, was "their favorite" Tolkien theme... but somehow is missing for Numenoreans here so go and figure what it might possibly mean and whether they were being honest or maybe they're just full of BS and don't care at all
(Ah but what the show is doing is having Numenoreans shout about completely imagined "stolen jobs" and "elven invaders". Really? How is that the story of Numenor again?)

- Long lifespan makes them, in fact, actually quite superior to all other men both in skill and wisdom, something that the show did not acknowledge and did not communicate at all... maybe because they wanted them to be generic humans like our real world so they can be framed as regular racists and xenophobic people, not complex peoples who actually have a certain sense of superiority and an unnatural advantage that brings them closer to elven kind?
(so again, none of that in the show, just regular humans screaming "they're taking our jobs!" on a rally)

- Because of the above... they actively explored all the seas, build colonies and helped "lesser men" prosper and counter Sauron
(nothing on the show suggest any of this, for all we know they don't have any active colonies and don't do much sailing other than around Numenor)

- Because Sauron was able to sway at least some of the people of Middle-earth to his cause (who were in general more easily swayed by shadow) one would imagine it was usually up to Numenoreans to tidy things up politically. So, in a sense, they could think of themselves a bit more highly and like they're morally superior and a shining beacon of righteousness and wisdom on these shores, which would make their turn and fall into outright supremacists and Black Numenoreans a little bit more nuanced and more tragic, just like it was supposed to be
(the show doesn't have this premise either, because in the show it was subverted and the elves gotta deal with "lesser men tempted by evil" - again, the people of Numenor are just randomly racist towards a "low man" of Middle-earth in the tavern, initially for no reason, so that's not Numenor at all, more like a forced mirror of American politics and social issues, in a contrived over-the-top representation).

- Because they explored all the seas and enriched themselves far and wide... they grew tempted by forbidden waters and grew bolder - the ban started to weight on them
(in the show they clearly weren't really enriching themselves in this way and who can even tell where they were sailing at all because Numenor, the famous sailors, are hardly even showed doing anything meaningful with their ships)

- Because of THAT they grew distanced from the elves and, in fact, jealous of their immortality
(the show says about the relations falling apart but doesn't really say why... if anything, with all the racist rallies and one-liners against the elves, and no word about the ban or their mortality with the baggage of extended lifespan... a viewer is just going to assume they're mostly just racist jerks who don't like elves for race reasons and standard irl bigotry, rallied by a populist figure... and that's clearly the show's intention with omitting all these other things so again, how is THAT a story of Numenor?)

- As the consequence, their colonies turned into fortresses and the colonialism started to show
(the show's colony that was mentioned was apparently abandoned and no longer active, besides... it was the elves who occupied the Southlands and were "helping" the men... so that's just another subverted thing and another key thing taken away from Numenor)

- No mention of Umbar so far, one of the key places of Numenorean/Black Numenorean history and one of their key key ports of Middle-earth. The abandoned colony mentioned in the show was Pelargil, surprisingly, so they can't even get something like that right.
(in canon, Pelargil was most likely created by the Faithful as their main hub, and they've got that in the Appendices)

- Colonies means resources and these resources would eventually create the splendor of the island that we see in the show
(except in the show it's contrived and exist in a vacuum out of nothing, apparently)

- Numenor had powerful fleets and some of the most impressive armies, except not really horsemen (it would also be quite logical for long distance mariners to prefer sea warfare and more easily deployed footmen)
(in the show they don't have armies, just volunteers, they don't have combat experience, and their ships are a joke if 3 is the best they could do and it's even more laughable that 3 small ships were enough for 300 men and all horses... like, we should have seen entire FLEETS of Numenoreans by now, where is that Numenorean history you're talking about?)

- They would eventually be outright oppressing peoples of Middle-earth and deforesting its shores to empower themselves and challenge Sauron
(oh, the show's Ar-Pharazon wanna have tributes from a dirty village now? how does that change things? it came a little to late, I would say... and with contrived context that makes it super weak because they already are super rich with impressively large dockyard, also Southlanders are so unimpressively poor they wouldn't enrich them in any way and 300 men wouldn't be enough to do it anyway)

- Ar-Pharazon's drive and ambition was to be king of the world of men and challenged Sauron over it
(Ar-Pharazon of the show mentioned elves who will be taking orders from them... so that sounds like just another subversion and the weight is being put elsewhere)

- That's hardly the most important thing at this point but yeah, they were supposed to be European looking and would be worried about purity of blood, at the very least at royal level, to keep their gift. In fact, it was a recurring theme that reappears in Gondor affairs too, so pretty important stuff with these people...
(but hey, the show's version is just random diversity, that's so "cool" - another theme butchered and removed)

- Their relationship and knowledge about the Valar was quite different than worship and they would know about the One, an actual creator god
(instead, the show's Numenoreans refer to them as gods and... they worship the sea, like seriously, it's not just a silly saying or anything, The Sea Is Always Right!!! is almost an equivalent of the biblical bull statue...)

- Miriel wasn't the Queen regent and Ar-Pharazon was no mere advisor and populist leader, he actually had a lesser claim to the throne, and, with Miriel's father there was a direct mention of strife and rebellion, so YES, Numenor was very GoT-like and it should have been treated a bit like that. Tolkien mentions Al-Pharazon "seizing the scepter" and refers to different kings as holding the scepter, which brings to mind this kingly, powerful nation at its peak, with offshore colonies and powerful resources, with political infighting and - sometimes - "the game of throne" (or desire for the place at "the small council" table, or perhaps for the position of the governor in a rich colony, which must have been the festering center of some serious corruption, because that's where all the surviving Black Numenoreans came from)
(none of that in the show... just a populist "they're taking our jobs" Ar-Pharazon and deviations from canon with Miriel... to make her a black girl power in the show... that they've recently blinded, so great "empowerment" I guess lol)

- We had the King's Men (of which there would be different political factions and houses no doubt) and Faithful (as the minority, with holdings in the West of the Island)
(No King's Men as a faction here and no noble houses of any kind mentioned yet, Ar-Pharazon just an advisor. They've only got Faithful and elf friends right - but even then Elendil if of no noble house as he should be and the mentions of the West of the Island they do have on the show... are completely devoid of any context, like an afterthought )

- The Island will be eventually destroyed by waves, sure, but... it should come as a surprise and a punishment for something nobody expected they would dare to do. Not come in dreams and prophecies of the future, which is complete BS and needless.
(which is all given far more spotlight in the show than anything from these other important key elements)

I mean, really... I could go on but... it's really THAT self-evident. 18 key factors and theme I could think of off the top of my head and only 2 of these actually in the show and even then largely diminished, done in a way that is shallow or unclear to people unfamiliar with the source material. Where is the history and story of Numenor again? The one that they're building towards? If the thing is 1% from canon and largely subverted and changed, then it stops being an adaptation.

Your post inspired a bit lengthy answer but it was nice thinking about all the Numenorean things from Tolkien. What a great adaptation it could have been... if at least 30-50 % made it into the show...

I hoped for a better show.

We all did... that's why people voice their dissatisfaction, bewilderment and disbelief at this sort of writing. Like, no one expected, even with bad people at the helm, that Tolkien material could turn out THIS bad. One could compare Tolkien to a historical account of events, so, in a way, it's a fantasy based on the historical account of fantastical epic events. The appendices they've got hit this point closer home since it doesn't really have narrative but got key history and how things unfolded written down and chronicled. History in TV was VERY rare and badly done for many many years now (if you don't count medieval times and above, plus viking, there is also a lot of viking stuff...). And even before that, not to mention recently, there were plenty of inaccurate, weird adaptation choices for historical events over the years. But none of them as ridiculously done and a giant miss as RoP... except in Bolywood! Plus, they've got it all said plainly by Tolkien in the Appendices so I'm tired of people coming up with the excuses and their favorite (as it would seem) "adaptation and making choices because they "don't have" the rights." Tolkien was pretty clear. It's not something like the sort of thing House of the Dragon gotta deal with, like the unreliable narrator sorting out other unreliable narrators (and they make some pretty neat adaptation choices there, so this show is such a great contrast to RoP).

If it's not in the appendices of The Hobbit + LotR, the showrunners can't use it. That means what they use to fill in the gaps will be their own creation, not stuff from other publications of Tolkien. That means this show is going to contradict established lore. It literally has to. They can't use the stuff they don't have license for. They have to make up something that looks different from the stuff they're not allowed to use.

Hmm, just noticed your post and this would be a good answer for you because all of the stuff I mentioned I'm pretty sure is covered in the Appendices... so yeah, tired of this "gotta dance around" argument when they actually have the rights to all the things that matter that most of us wanted to see and couldn't imagine this story without. I'm just not sure, why some people feel like they gotta defend these so-called showrunners with such far-fetched claims? You've read these things yourselves, no doubt, deep down you know most of that is covered by the Appendices anyway and, since you played LOTRO, deep down you know one can dance around the lore in ways that remain respectful to the main premise or motive (though, if something was really said in something they don't have the rights to, I wouldn't have mind a bit more crazy unexpected type of dancing around, as long as the core things are adapted well)

[TesalionLortus]

This isn't a closed club for the snooty purist - there is room for all sorts of ways into this world.

An adaptation doesn't need to be a club for purists (and I would probably hate it if it was). But an adaptation needs to adapt at least something like 30% of the actual story to count as such. RoP got maybe 5%... or something... The repurposing of PJ's scenes and dialogues and situations takes up something like 10-20 % of the material already (if not more, if we count the cascade effect that these things have on the plot) but PJ is no Tolkien canon and most of his scenes got nothing to do with stories of Second Age "they're telling".

[Arnenna]

Fair enough. But then, for example, we're not going to see "the history of Numenor unfold" in the series, because they can't do that. Tolkien wrote about that history, but the show can't use it, so we're going to see original fiction with some of the names from the Appendices applied to it.

It already is unfolding and has been since episode 3. Galadriel explains to Halbrand about the Numenor of old, and how in the great war, his ancestors stood with Morgoth, while the Numenoreans were once kin of the elves, and fought in the battle against Morgoth. As a reward the Valar gifted them the island of Numenor when they raised if from the sea. She goes on to say how that alliance has faded over time, and that elves were turned away from the shores of Numenor. It is later mentioned that Elendil is of noble blood, now a captain of the sea guard, with a son who will follow in his footsteps (though, he doesn't). How the petals of the white tree falling should not be taken lightly, that it is believed that they are the tears of the Valar, and serves as a reminder that their eyes are always on them. How the house of Lore was crafted by Elros, the founder of Numenor and how thanks to the last king, it was not torn down. That he is loyal to the elves. Dispute in the streets brings mention of how one elf cannot bring down the might or Numenor, going into some of the history about that part. There is much more, too much to list, and there is a lot more to come. Not everything, granted, because they have little material to go on, but there is an unfolding of history and story going on.

[Echoweaver]

the house of Lore was crafted by Elros, the founder of Numenor

I wonder when Elrond is going to mention that Elros was his brother. I'd like to see some perspective from him on watching his brother choose to be human, then age and die.

[Radhruin_EU]

I wonder when Elrond is going to mention that Elros was his brother. I'd like to see some perspective from him on watching his brother choose to be human, then age and die.

Elros had gone off to Numenor so Elrond wasn't around to see that.

Also in he show Elrond and Elros look nothing like each other in that mural they're shown in. Go figure...

[Radhruin_EU]

There is much more, too much to list

Really not. And this so-called 'history' avoids almost all mention of kings and turns Elendil from a member of the highest-ranking noble family on the island (second only to the royal family and rulers of a large chunk of western Numenor) into fallen petty nobility turned ship captain.

While LOTR Appendix A abbreviates a lot you can tell that Elendil's family are important from this:

The last leaders of the Faithful, Elendil and his sons, escaped from the
Downfall with nine ships, bearing a seedling of Nimloth, and the Seven
Seeing-stones (gifts of the Eldar to their House)

So yeah, important enough to have been given the palantiri by the Eldar (so much for them being 'hidden or lost' and Miriel should not have one), they were given to the Faithful by the Elves (specifically to Elendil's father Amandil as the then leader of the Faithful although that particular detail's not in LOTR). So what's 'unfolding' is a threadbare substitute that's purposely ignoring even what's in the stuff from LOTR that they've licensed.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

I look at it like this, if they are still complaining about the series 3, 4 weeks after the series started, they must be watching it.

[DavidmeetHal]

Ah, but Btonwyn is one of these 'modern' strong female characters, so there's no keeping her down! (

This is one of those things that irritate me, people acting like modern strong female characters are new. What about Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, The Sword of Monte Cristo 1951, Alien, Conan the Barbarian, Red Sonja, and so on? From watching the interviews of some of the cast and producers, you would think strong female characters never existed before 2022.

[Echoweaver]

This is one of those things that irritate me, people acting like modern strong female characters are new.

Also Eowyn?

Bronwyn is a healer ffs. She's done some tactical planning, and she's kept her head in a crisis, but she hasn't shown any skill as a fighter that I noticed.

From watching the interviews of some of the cast and producers, you would think strong female characters never existed before 2022.

Dur, now I'm not sure what you're saying here. I've been watching creepy Tolkien fans complain about the female characters in this show as if it not only invented strong female characters, but their existence somehow degraded all of fiction. I'm pretty sure anything the showrunners are saying is in light of some truly disgusting fan commentary.

Elros had gone off to Numenor so Elrond wasn't around to see that.

Serious question -- is it written that after Elros went to Numenor, he never spoke to his brother again? Otherwise, what you say here doesn't make any sense to me.

[DavidmeetHal]

Also Eowyn?

.

DOH! I forgot about her!

[wispsong]

This is one of those things that irritate me, people acting like modern strong female characters are new. What about Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, The Sword of Monte Cristo 1951, Alien, Conan the Barbarian, Red Sonja, and so on? From watching the interviews of some of the cast and producers, you would think strong female characters never existed before 2022.

Galadriel is a very strong woman as portrayed in Tolkien and the movies. That makes it so sad that she now is just another warrior. Apparently, today's writers have no idea how to write a strong woman who is not using physical strength.

[DavidmeetHal]

Galadriel is a very strong woman as portrayed in Tolkien and the movies. That makes it so sad that she now is just another warrior. Apparently, today's writers have no idea how to write a strong woman who is not using physical strength.

I haven't watched the show, I only know about her from what I've read in the RoP threads.

[Radhruin_EU]

Also Eowyn?

No, not Eowyn because she'd trained to fight and isn't unrealistically skilled or strong. It wasn't uncommon to train noblewomen to fight in their own defence, or if it came to last-ditch defence of hearth and home, but going off to war was a different matter. And she gets hammered by the Witch-king, would have been killed if not for Merry, nearly died afterwards and took a long time to get better. So no, not one of these 'modern' strong female characters who just gets things handed to them, can fight with no training or is super-strong, and can shrug things off thanks to nothing but plot armour.

Bronwyn kills an Orc in a one-on-one fight and doesn't get so much as a scratch. She also kills the big Orc who was about to kill Arondir (because of course a male hero needs to be put in a situation where the strong female character has to save him) using a sword that came from nowhere (she'd got a scythe, earlier). She survives blood loss that'd fell an ox and looks absolutely fine in no time, up and about like nothing happened, and her wound doesn't seem to bother her at all. (I bet you, if you had an inch-wide gash right through your shoulder from a broadhead, and it had been cauterised as well, that sucker would hurt like hell, you'd look and feel extremely rough and you'd need that arm in a sling so it didn't pull on the wound). And then we have the volcanic eruption and again, not so much as a scratch.

Galadriel is the other sort of 'modern' strong female character, who is trained but is then so awesome at everything that everybody else is a spare wheel and again, mad plot armour. A troll that's hammered a bunch of her men flat? Effortlessly soloed. Volcano to the face? Just gets a bit dusty and her hair gets mussed, not so much as a scratch or a singed hair even as buildings are torn apart around her and stuff catches fire. She's this show's Captain Marvel, absurdly OP compared to other characters (other High Elves included), no real sense of threat to her at all, lousy personality but somehow gets what she wants anyway.

And *that's* the sort of thing people are complaining about. We all know there are actual misogynists out there but don't go tarring us all with the same brush - that's just echoing the fan-baiting Amazon have been doing. (Fan-baiting is a deliberate tactic where you court adverse comment by including stuff like I've mentioned above and then call anyone who complains hateful, to distract attention from the real problems with the show).

Serious question -- is it written that after Elros went to Numenor, he never spoke to his brother again? Otherwise, what you say here doesn't make any sense to me.

The point was that they were separated for either all or nearly all of Elros' remaining life and it's a symbolic divide, so it's implied. You can perhaps imagine Elrond popping over there to see his brother every now and again if you like but a trip to Numenor was a significant undertaking, probably more than three weeks at sea each way and risky, too so it wasn't like a weekend trip and you wouldn't do it at all often. For sure, Elros didn't visit Elrond as no Numenorean set foot in Middle-earth for six centuries (until after Elros' death) and there were no formal relations between Lindon and Numenor for all that time. After that, there was close friendship that lasted until the Numenoreans started really obsessing over death and became so jealous of the Elves. But it'd be strange to have Elrond (who was Gil-galad's herald) going across there and there somehow still not being ties between Lindon and Numenor until after Elros' death.

[DKenny]

It already is unfolding and has been since episode 3.....

I think that's been pretty thoroughly refuted in a post a couple above yours. Not only can they not use certain materials pertaining to that history, they're not even trying to "dance around" it while remaining faithful to it. They're not even using everything they do have access to. Instead, they're replacing it with their own original material.

[DKenny]

This is one of those things that irritate me, people acting like modern strong female characters are new. What about Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, The Sword of Monte Cristo 1951, Alien, Conan the Barbarian, Red Sonja, and so on? From watching the interviews of some of the cast and producers, you would think strong female characters never existed before 2022.

Ripley from Alien, Sarah Connor from Terminator.....

Again, the reason they play up aspects such as "diverse cast" or "strong female characters" is a deflection from the terrible writing and story. If you criticize it, then you get labelled racist or sexist.

[TesalionLortus]

She's this show's Captain Marvel, absurdly OP compared to other characters (other High Elves included), no real sense of threat to her at all, lousy personality but somehow gets what she wants anyway.

Except she is far worse. Other than the lazy deus ex machina in Endgame, at least there was some merit to her awesome powers that came from one of the stones, so a bit like Obelix falling into the cauldron. With Galadriel... zero attempt at plausibility, because there can't be any viable one, but they're doing it anyway turned up to eleven, it's just THAT bad and a toddler would have noticed. Even if this show was awesome and perfect and very faithful... she alone would have been enough to turn it into a nighmare and detracted trainwreck

[gsweet87]

I'm quite enjoying the show.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Pity you ignored the rest of what he said.

How does any of this excuse the show's awful writing? There were no lore points raised there (unless you count MIddle-earth being big and the characters 'teleporting' around in a way that ignores time and distance) so that remark about "snooty purists" was entirely uncalled for. If you're going to make remarks like that, don't talk about being 'gracious'.

Do you even play Lotro? or do you walk everywhere at walking speed with the odd run and sprint here and there. If you don't use any swift travel, do you stop at regular intervals and rest your mount?

Adaptations have to make decisions based on what is sensible for the medium... Lotro has swift travel and the visual media has to push time. These comments are becoming non-sensical now. !!