Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Scenario]

Or is more regions in the game somehow affecting game performance by any chance? So it's not as easy to have a whole bunch of those?

It's more a consideration of disk space. Each new region comes with a new set of dat files. When we launch an update that includes a new region (such as Tales of Yore/Azanulbizar), we are usually monitoring things closely to make sure that the download weight isn't too onerous on the players (and on our data providers).

[TesalionLortus]

It's more a consideration of disk space. Each new region comes with a new set of dat files. When we launch an update that includes a new region (such as Tales of Yore/Azanulbizar), we are usually monitoring things closely to make sure that the download weight isn't too onerous on the players (and on our data providers).

Oh that's actually surprising! That you had to monitor it closely during Azanulbizar. All of the client_map.dat files have only 22 MB and client_cell.dat about 400 MB for 1-4 maps and 60 MB for the one numbered 14 which I assume is Azanulbizar. About 80 MB for Azanulbizar map data doesn't sound like an awful lot, especially in 2023. Unless there is something more in other "joined" dat files (general, highres) that needs to be doubled for each new map created and can't be shared because that's just how the system works?

[Scenario]

It's more about the volume of people downloading a new region all at once. With stuff we work on in existing regions, that data can kind of trickle in over various updates. New Regions is an all at once kind of thing.

[Phantion]

It's more about the volume of people downloading a new region all at once. With stuff we work on in existing regions, that data can kind of trickle in over various updates. New Regions is an all at once kind of thing.

Wow! This is really fascinating! Thank you!

So just to make sure I understand it clearly . . . let me give a hypothetical question.

Which is more onerous / troublesome on the data / downloading / dat-files side of things? Having . . . 1 very large "main zone region" named Mordor that has adjacent zones, like Rhun and Harad, as part of that same main region title - or having . . . completely separate "main world region maps" for Rhun and Harad both that you'd have to go through a "portal" to get to, from say, the Wastes in Mordor and South Ithilien in Gondor?

So, when I say "main world region," I mean on the level of: "Eriador," "Rhovanion," "Mordor," "Gondor," and "Tales of Yore." When I say "zone," I mean something like "East Gondor," "Old Anorien," "Far Anorien," "Central Gondor," etc.

To try to ask it in a clearer way, let me try:

Option A: Rhun, if it hypothetically entered the game, would be better to have it's own separate "main world region" map apart from "Rhovanion" and "Mordor" adjacent to it.

Option B: Rhun, if it hypothetically entered the game, would be better to have as part of the wider "Rhovanion region map" - and just build-out the landscape, zone by zone, down from Strongholds of the North and Iron-fold.

I'm asking: Which of those 2 options is the more preferable one from a dat-files / long-term game development perspective?

((I.E. I'm NOT asking for confirmation about any potential future zones; I'm just asking about the world-building techniques to understand better which of the two is better on the servers, the data-side of things, etc. I'm interested in learning even more! )).

The simplest way, I think, I could ask the same question is: If you hypothetically were to expand, say, Rhovanion to include all of Rhun, would it "break the game" sort to speak - or would the most ideal scenario, Scenario, *winks and smiles,* look more like having some landscape portals south of Long Lake and Skald's Drop to enter a wholly different region with its own set of data / map coordinates (*as was done, say, between Gondor and Mordor and North and South Ithilien)?

Cheers!

[Scenario]

Our goal is always to make the most out of the space we already have. Its more efficient, gives us fewer files we have to manage, and gives the players less they have to worry about themselves. But... sometimes we have to make a new region - and when we do its for an intentional good reason. If a new addition to landscape can be introduced in a safe and sane way to an existing region, we always prefer that over creating a new region for it.

[TesalionLortus]

Well, this is all certainly interesting! I know there are generally worries regarding overall size and data transfer but I have this guilty pleasure of going into my folder from time to time, and either being really surprised the client is still at X size range or feeling a guilty pleasure that it significantly increased in size from the last time, requiring more GBs - which means the game grows! (both in size of the landmasses and brand new assets being added!)

It would be pretty cool if you guys managed to stream some of the internal workings someday, like how some of your world building tools look like etc. But I know, probably impossible due to licensing and... spoilers : P I remember you did posted some screenshots of how things looked like in your editor, with mob paths and such, for Gondor/Pelennor (I think?) but it was hard to get the idea just based on screenshots. Always makes me wonder how difficult they are when it comes down to interface and complexity, as in how friendly/comfy is the interface and how well-integrated different options are or whether it's actually a large learning curve with lots of confusing external tools, weird names and whatnot

[SingularityNow]

I can give you a real good reason... Level bands. There's no adjacent area to go to 150 from 140, other than into the desolate area north of Gundabad so the most obvious solution is a map that will be a portal off the main map which would make Umbar a likely candidate. If you're going there by boat portal from say Dol Amroth, you're able to segregate lower level bands from wandering in and even if you work your way back and connect to say the southern side of gondor, that's area is so out of the way it would at least mitigate accidentally crossing into a major new 150 area.

[miriadel]

ok, I'll narrow down my speculations to 3: Nurn, Umbar for Sev's (and now Scenario's hint) Iron Pass for Orion (which I hope not because I want to go far from Eriador )

hahahaaaaaaa, nailed it! I'll gladly bear damn Angmar knowing we'll actually go to Umbar

[TesalionLortus]

So the majority either here or reddit basically called it, though I'm not sure how I feel about this idea. Especially reading the mention of strange goings on in Gondor or new enemies, as in Corsairs, to be "unleashed" on Gondor. Man, they just suffered one of the greatest military defeats of their times and had their entire fleet taken over, so not sure how is that supposed to work. But I reserve judgment until we know more... Like, sure, I value new iconic landmasses, but I dislike having to go to see things on a whim, so to speak, because then it's no longer the same and more of a museum feel than a truly engaging storyline, and it's especially interesting (or ironic, which I hope not!) that they advertise this as "story expansion!" so that's curious. Because it's no story expansion or no continuing the story if it's basically just brand new plot thread and no solid continuation to threads we left behind.

Well, in that context, at least Angmar IS a story continuation! Though I am surprised by the fact we're getting like alternate Angmar? So it's not a landmass expansion, no gaps filled or...? I don't get it, when will we learn more!
Btw, what are these Dol Guldur towers doing there... it doesn't feel right. Especially in that different color. Carn Dum was pretty uniform, as I remember it, as in Iron Crown grey, and that worked. Felt natural. But these black segments from that screenshot feel a little bit off, like a few additional pieces from a different lego set placed. Just a world design digression because I couldn't help but notice this! Is that from early in development maybe and not yet finalized assets? Or am I being silly and these were always there long before Dol Guldur, though I certainly don't remember that! Or did the Angmarim built these now for reasons, though that would be still strange I guess?

Back to Gondor though, I think the biggest WOW here is... THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING THE REST OF IT IN THE AFTER. WOW. How much is this? Like all of it? And what of the housing area, does it get a public space now or what? Can we count on some new touches and villages to be seen, or even access to some of these valleys, to make these parts more lived-in, both on After and Before? So many questions here. That was the least expected I think!

[miriadel]

Return to Angmar is just an instance cluster, I guess any landscape tied to it will be inside the instance, not out in the open map

[MadeofLions]

Because it's no story expansion or no continuing the story if it's basically just brand new plot thread and no solid continuation to threads we left behind...

It's been consistently funny to me to see the worries about 'why aren't you wrapping up existing story threads before you start new ones?'

It's always been one long story. Always. It's divided into convenient sections for organization, but it's always the story of Middle-earth. To expect the War of the Ring to have no consequences seems... a little odd. 'Tell me what happened to Karazgar!' you say. 'Eventually,' I have to reply.

Maybe. But first, let's see what's happening over here. Maybe this stretch of the story, when it's all done, will be your new favorite, and you won't be able to imagine the world without it. And then these will be the characters from whom you demand more, and these will be the lands you want to see just beyond their borders, and it goes on and on, and on...

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

It's been consistently funny to me to see the worries about 'why aren't you wrapping up existing story threads before you start new ones?'

I would say it's only funny because you're on the other side of things... so you know where it's going, at least some of it, and artistically/as a creator there is really not that much difference, except for what cool new things you guys can work on next. Which I get, I have an entire world of my own in my head and all it comes down to is jumping from one thing to the other, even if you try to dedicate to a specific thing. But, move back in time a bit -> narratively, I didn't really have to wait 10 years by making various detours and exploring brand new stories in different directions - to use a hyperbole - to see the March of the King reach Black Gate. It happened almost instantly and immersed me in the direction of the story, kind of "follow with the tide" sort of thing. I never said we can't have detours though and I did accept them so far but to take a detour after detour (kind of), now that is a tiny bit more worrying. "Immersion burn out" factor, so to speak, loss of impetus and so on. Karazgar is fine not being there yet though That's a sort of thing that's self evident because he isn't really much of a threat to the West and not as worth pursuing, narratively. So, all in all, I just wonder if the game manages to make me feel, as a thinking living character in a living world, that I really need to go where I am told to go next or that the said happenings are warranted. If that really works, at least narratively will feel okay, so immersion doesn't suffer... though still some burn out with the constant gathering of things on shelfs and you never get to fully consume any of these jars and fully enjoy that one specific meal... too much of it can have its toll

[Scenario]

I didn't really have to wait 10 years by making various detours and exploring brand new stories in different directions - to use a hyperbole - to see the March of the King reach Black Gate. It happened almost instantly and immersed me in the direction of the story, kind of "follow with the tide" sort of thing.

The "curse" of playing an evolving live game - having to wait for the next chapter of the story

[miriadel]

It's been consistently funny to me to see the worries about 'why aren't you wrapping up existing story threads before you start new ones?'

It's always been one long story. Always. It's divided into convenient sections for organization, but it's always the story of Middle-earth. To expect the War of the Ring to have no consequences seems... a little odd. 'Tell me what happened to Karazgar!' you say. 'Eventually,' I have to reply.

Maybe. But first, let's see what's happening over here. Maybe this stretch of the story, when it's all done, will be your new favorite, and you won't be able to imagine the world without it. And then these will be the characters from whom you demand more, and these will be the lands you want to see just beyond their borders, and it goes on and on, and on...

MoL

ok but I still want to know what happened to Corudan! What if he appears in Umbar XD

[TesalionLortus]

The "curse" of playing an evolving live game - having to wait for the next chapter of the story

I guess I should have phrased it "to see the March of the King reach Black Gate after the battle of Pelennor" to make this point more clear : D As in, no, that sort of wait time wasn't there always for this game. Granted, it followed the book pathway more tightly, so it did that, but not having to stick to the book pathway as tightly which allows for more opportunities doesn't really need to become "spread it all out! so much that it hurts!" : D

[TesalionLortus]

ok but I still want to know what happened to Corudan! What if he appears in Umbar XD

As a new pirate lord king enslaved by terrible power. Ok, this new threat makes sense now!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

So Umbar it is. Kinda expected more build toward Umbar via multiple updates going from East Gondor, into Harondor, and then into Umbar. But hey this works. That expansion of the stable master map makes more sense now.

I'll say the "return to Cairn Dum" instance cluster seems like they're going to wrap up the loose plot threads from Gundabad involving the resurgent Angmariam. Feels like it pokes a lot of holes in the possibility of an Iron Pass map one day.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

It is a shame that there won’t be a landscape update for the new Carn Dum - they could just call it something else and stick it next door on the map, although I guess just adding new landscape without any content may not be the most valuable use of time.

I’m thinking the Rhudaur Vandassar and Drugoth are likely to be major plot points here!

As for Gondor, so many questions, particularly based on how things connect up, to create the non-Dawnless Gondor:
- West Gondor is already non-Dawnless. Will there be a second version of this created?
- How far does this new version stretch? Hopefully we’ll see new areas included (such as Anfalas), but will the jumping off area for this be to the west of Tarlang’s Crown (in which case, no need for a new map?), or will it include the eastern parts of Gondor?
- Which version of Minas Tirith will this map link to? My guess is either Midsummer or March of the King - the latter makes the most sense for going southwards into Harondor through an updated south Ithilien, but a copy could be made of all of these zones and attached to Midsummer (although I can imagine that would be a huge undertaking, particularly in terms of all of the lightning changes necessary).
- Where will the jumping off point for Umbar be? I don’t mind if it doesn’t connect geographically initially (like Northern Strongholds), but it needs to be connected up at some point, so this needs to be planned now!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

It is a shame that there won’t be a landscape update for the new Carn Dum - they could just call it something else and stick it next door on the map, although I guess just adding new landscape without any content may not be the most valuable use of time.

During the most recent "A Casual Stroll" stream with Scenario there was a moment where he was talking about how they decide to place things like portals between where the maps(like the larger Eriador/Rhovanian maps) end, and in areas where there is little interest/possibility of expanding. One of the areas he mentioned as an example of this was the pass between Angmar and Gundabad. He did say the chance of them doing it wasn't zero, but that it was very low.

I'm guessing the whole "expanding Angmar for post fall" kinda stuff would likely be covered in that same general idea.

- Where will the jumping off point for Umbar be? I don’t mind if it doesn’t connect geographically initially (like Northern Strongholds), but it needs to be connected up at some point, so this needs to be planned now!

I would guess that it would be connected along the coast up into Harondor. Umbar, a Far Harad map, Harondor, and then Southguard, which connects to East Gondor map.

[Deriaph]

The map of announced lands was updated with this new tidbit.

Note that term "Umbar" itself is somewhat ambiguous as it both refers to the whole land, as well as its capital ("Umbar City", or "City of Corsairs").

The land itself is huge, roughly comparable to the size of in-game Gondor, and the entire range of the land might easily accomodate 3-5 decent sized regions.

The spring update does include landscape additions so we might get the Southguard of Gondor along with the Dawnless Day-less Gondor to start us on the way south, but the distance is so long that I don't think we will be able to make it all the way to Umbar city on foot that way in time for the fall expansion. This might mean we will have to set sail across the Bay of Belfalas. Smell the salt water indeed!

[TesalionLortus]

This map looks mega cool and yeah, it does show what I always said, Umbar isn't just a city state in its own vacuum, but more of a coastline kingdom, to be sure. (And seeing such a huge amazing line of coast with a bay in a more exotic/varied biome... makes me mega disappointed right now it is being done NOW and no boats, no pirate coves, no interesting nooks and crannies, unless it's a teleport boat constantly all the time in which case my head is gonna spin - was okay for Gondor where the focus was still war of the ring but going into a pirate theme specifically with the premise based mostly on exploration of this amazing new shoreline... and no boats? bah! but if they waited longer with that one, maybe boats could have been there eventually and used for some truly amazing/different world design in such a place)

Btw, I don't get people who use that map as an outline for "what might be added" in the future though I mean, surely there was no mention of something like "Petrified Forest" within the lore and most of these names and borders would be the author just making a wild guess to fill in the blanks in his own way, but SSG may very well do something wildly different with any of these places

[Deriaph]

Btw, I don't get people who use that map as an outline for "what might be added" in the future though I mean, surely there was no mention of something like "Petrified Forest" within the lore and most of these names and borders would be the author just making a wild guess to fill in the blanks in his own way, but SSG may very well do something wildly different with any of these places

It's absolutely true that a Tolkien leaves a lot of empty land in those areas that have yet to be explored, Harad being a good example. That leaves the creators of LOTRO a similar room to create a world of their own. To fill that entire map, they would have to get creative with region names, just like the creator of the map has to be. The map is of course not an actual graphic of genuine future region names that correponds with the intentions of SSG.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

The land itself is huge, roughly comparable to the size of in-game Gondor, and the entire range of the land might easily accomodate 3-5 decent sized regions.

He's most certainly overstating the size of the Umbar zone in that image by quite a bit.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Umbar

Umbar was a realm[1] on the coast south of Gondor in Middle-earth. It was also the name of the great cape and land-locked firth[2] and of the natural haven[3] in this realm. It was probably also the name of a fortified city in this realm, because the name Umbar was used in conjunction with it being made into a great fortress,[4] it being laid siege to[5] or it being invested,[6], which implies a very small fortified area.

Btw, I don't get people who use that map as an outline for "what might be added" in the future though I mean, surely there was no mention of something like "Petrified Forest" within the lore and most of these names and borders would be the author just making a wild guess to fill in the blanks in his own way, but SSG may very well do something wildly different with any of these places

This new Near Harad map extension notwithstanding, Varghedin has generally been pretty good at making up names/regions that fit pretty well with established lore/geography, and SSG's general zone design. The alternative is what? referring to massive areas like the big blank spot north of Mordor as "that blank spot north of Mordor" all the time?

[Deriaph]

There are other maps online of Umbar as well, more detailed and they seem to show a similar extent:







That whole peninsula definitely belongs to Umbar but it does seem to extend also north to the mouth of the Harnen river and south around the bay (Havens of Umbar).

The exact border between Umbar and Harad I believe is not clearly defined.

[TesalionLortus]

This new Near Harad map extension notwithstanding, Varghedin has generally been pretty good at making up names/regions that fit pretty well with established lore/geography, and SSG's general zone design. The alternative is what? referring to massive areas like the big blank spot north of Mordor as "that blank spot north of Mordor" all the time?

I mean, that's true and understandable that their takes on the places established in the lore might align with SSG's, and the map is indeed very nice! But what I meant is that I often see people taking this map for granted as in "this what this spot gonna be, or how it's bordered" but not even the Kallioita needs to be right and can be named totally something else in a different fashion or even split into different differently bordered zones.

I believe the Umbar borders they outlined might be correct for how SSG are going to do this, roughly, as a "political entity". With this difference that some of these "further ashore" lands may be more like vassal satellites and some early sneak peak into Harad at some of the borders, rather than everything directly under control of Umbarim all the time. Think more a consolidated pirate "kingdom" with its very own infrastructure, maybe smaller ports along the coast, for everything associated with the water and near it (or up the rivers, potentially, if we get any) and then some smaller satellite states/villages/cities/whatnot, not as directly controlled.