Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[gildhur]

A desert could be a great way to make the border of the zone not too physically obvious - instead of a low wall, what about environmental attrition (like the Forochel ice bay)? The desert could stretch off as far as we could see in the distance and we could get some way towards it, but then our characters start to suffer from heatstroke and can't go any further. Then, when/if they expand that way, it is a handy narrative device that our characters find a way of adapting to the heat!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I'm not so sure this would suit my aging loremaster, but in essence yes!

[Wanderv]

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region.

I don't believe we have a specific technical limitation on the size of a Region or Area, outside of the bounds of the Territory they belong to, there may be some data-related limitations in just how big those volumes can be.

Over the years, we've dabbled in areas of various sizes. The original game had areas of fairly small sizes, where as the Gondor era had much larger areas. Personally, I find smaller areas as beneficial to wayfinding in a region. Knowing what subsection of a region you are in can help you better understand where you are by looking at the game world and by looking at a map.

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

So Umbar will be a separate Territory or it'll be a continuation of Gondor or Mordor Territory?

[Valather89]

So little is described of the lands to the south of Gondor that I wouldn't really mind if the devs come up with new mountainous boundaries for some of these regions tbh. Ever since launch lots of regions in the game have always been delimited by mountains never mentioned in the books and that has never been much of an issue, with the devs freely flattening them or removing them altogether after adding a contiguous zone. Of course, they should never be anywhere near the size of the biggest mountain ranges in Middle-earth (like the Misties or the White Mountains), but aside from that it's fair game imo. Especially now, since everything about Umbar and Harad is pretty close to a blank slate anyway. For example, I just checked Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, which I recall has helped the development of the game's world in the past quite a bit, and it didn't even mention Harad and Umbar anywhere. The name appears on some maps and that's it. No texts describing their geography, climate or vegetation at all.

I do like the suggestion of heat resistance being added to gear in some form. I'll always support adding some light metroidvania elements. And seas of sand have always been used in many games as boundaries. Tatooine's Dune Sea in SW:Knights of the Old Republic had a message saying "A vast expanse of desert stretches before you, with no markers or any indications of life. It would be a deathtrap for anyone wandering aimlessly." Something like that would certainly be a more subtle way of restricting player movement than a big rock in the middle of the road, lol. However, while that would work perfectly to prevent players from leaving Umbar towards Harad, I don't think the same applies to Harondor, which isn't supposed to have such an arid and hot climate. So if the devs feel the need to connect the land between Gondor and Umbar with a coastal section of Harondor with a new mountain range as a boundary, then fine by me, really.

Something like this, I mean:


As you can see, I tentatively named that coastal region "Bay of Belfalas" since it's explicitely mentioned in the 2023 Road Map letter. I think that would be a more manageable way of reaching Umbar with the given time constraints (Q4 2023), and there would always be time to bring these mountains down and add the entirety of Harondor later on. Then again, lately I keep underestimating their ability to add huge chunks of land in a single update: I didn't expect Yondershire to be so big, and I certainly didn't expect them to add two regions as big as CardoSwan in a single update. So who knows? And, as has been mentioned before, there's also a fairly decent chance of Umbar remaining an isolated place for the time being as Eryn Lasgalen was at some point, with players getting sent there on boat from Pelargir.

[TesalionLortus]

The landmass you marked would create the exact same problem as in Gondor though (as far as visuals go) = tiny, narrow landmass between the coast and some mountains/hills all the they way along the coast. That's exactly the sort of thing I wanna say to: please no...

I understand they need to come up with something for boundaries and I didn't really complain in Cardolan and Swanfleet due to not much going on there - so what could possibly be done? - plus it's such a geographically isolated border that the wall of these Southern cliffs, even though artificial a bit, doesn't bother me as much. But boundaries around Gondor, Harad and Umbar, that's a different story. Gotta be more creative about it, I guess, to make it somewhat more seamless and avoid that disastrous trap I mentioned above... All in all, I think they can just put smaller-sized rocks, bushes, some tree walls or whatever, just with very gentle cliffs and boundaries, but mostly it's the invisible wall that keeps you at bay - not a clearly visible elevation. Some parts of Mordor and other parts of the world were done like this - I never complained. It conveys a nice feeling of things being out there, including some clearly visible pathways up the mountains even (Mordor has a lot of those), they're just not relevant to the content or treacherous, so we're not going that way. There is really no need for... an elevation wall and forced border mountains/hills.

Most of the action we had in Middle-earth usually resolved around canon mountains and hills and due to compression we were mostly fated to always be content with these - sights that could have been a bit less hilly, so in some areas of Eriador in particular, were designed at the very beginning of the game, so with different philosophy in mind that said "need fishbowl walls!." Wildermore was one such region in the future updates when it was a bit forced but it made sense to be due to... unnatural, off, winter stuff going on there, that needed to be covered up. (though even that might have been lore-based elevation somewhat knowing the devs?) Rhovanion, Gondor, Mordor... action always nested near canon mountains, elevations made a lot of sense. I really think going South needs a different approach, not just saying there are these substantial mountains and hills everywhere. Plus, there are some mentions, drawings that placed Southern mountains, so the devs can definitely use that as reference. If you take a look at this map (might have some original takes in it, wherever lore isn't exactly clear) you can tell going South of Minhiriath, South of Gondor, and East towards Rhun (with only its tiny mountains near the sea) it is the first time in the game - lore-wise - when these are actually geographical blank spots as far as canon elevations go, so most likely not supposed to be mountains and not supposed to be super hilly or cliffy - and yeah, would make sense that the world isn't just entirely filled with mountains of some kind, right... so would be nice if the devs could convey this on these interconnected landscapes rather than just double down on made up mountains and hills. This would feel new and different And convey a sense of the real world The world filled with mountains no matter where you are doesn't exactly feel real, in the end


By the way! About Umbar and the map showed above... if the devs don't exactly have as much time... rather than have such artificial piece of shore with a mountainous boundary again like in Gondor, if they can't do entire Harondor yet, then I would rather see a *real* "Bay of Belfalas" region that's... entirely just water, maybe with Tolfalas! So you can have some questing on sea, maybe with some ships here and there, and around Tolfalas and some smaller islands near shore, or shore landmarks like beaches spots and coves, for now separated from a larger inland Horondor landmass. With the possibility to swim all the way from a shore of Gondor to Umbar... which is how we might get to Umbar but continuous since they're intending to have boats - rather than a teleport... I mean, THAT would be pretty neat actually.

It's all a difficult matter regarding the "which map they're going to do this in" but even if they have to use teleports a lot (or entire boundaries that are a teleport, when on seas) I really want it to feel like there is an alive Bay you can traverse. So at the very least around Tolfalas on Gondor map (but not West yet across the housing area) and then to sail into Anduin from there, and be able to embark on its Southern shores, or sail South of Tolfalas towards Umbar, with the sea boundary (invisible wall would suffice, it's like that in other games too) strecthing somewhere West of Tolfalas all the way to the Gulf of Umbar, so you can basically sail in a straight line if you wish so (with teleport portals/kickass teleport lines? in-between, if we gotta transition to another map layer). Somehow, no matter how map layers are solved, they really need to take advantage of this amazing opportunity. I mean, imagine telling someone that you can actually sail from the shores of Gondor to Umbar and feel like you're on sea I really hope it won't be just 5 cm from shores, no different than when we could swim, with these boats at play

[Arnand_the_Fox]

The landmass you marked would create the exact same problem as in Gondor though (as far as visuals go) = tiny, narrow landmass between the coast and some mountains/hills all the they way along the coast. That's exactly the sort of thing I wanna say to: please no...

Going to have to agree here.

Especially since Harondor is explicitly described as a "desert" land by Tolken, Id rather they just make it a big map, with spread out content, maybe largely centered around a few oasis areas. No need to move only along the coast.

If SSG needs something to block off the borders they can do what other MMOs do for deserts which is make sand dunes along the edges of the map that kinda curve back into the map so they can't be climbed.

[auximenes]

I'm expecting the desert boundaries will be sand dunes, with a little trench immediately in front of them to make them unclimbable. Look at what they did along the southern edge of CardoSwan.

[TesalionLortus]

I'm expecting the desert boundaries will be sand dunes, with a little trench immediately in front of them to make them unclimbable. Look at what they did along the southern edge of CardoSwan.

I don't know, it's not exactly as natural for a dune to be stretched for miles with a "trench", I guess? In CardoSwan it kinda blends together with a rocky landscape, so better than it used to, but this is till such a Visible Border Wall obscuring the view wherever you stand:




And when you stand closer = no view, outright high wall





If you want to blend in something like this better, then gotta have lots of similar elevations like in CardoSwan, but that leads again to a whole lot of elevations, which I hope won't be as much the case for East/South/further into Minhiriath in Eriador

I don't know, there is really nothing wrong with invisible walls (in case players try to jump where they shouldn't, like when they try to get behind some assets, so these always prevent from entering forbidden territorioes) but for regular borders you can also use dense bushes and such, like they do on rivers, or maybe some sights even (for example, a lone lumber camp with piles of wood blocking your way but view into distance isn't as blocked). Doesn't always need to be such high elevation from left to right obscuring the entire view with a Wall, especially if that's the place that's not as hilly, which I hope we will see more of such places.

[auximenes]

The dunes wouldn't need to be as high as the rocks you show in your picture, just a little higher than what you can jump up to from the ditch below. The ditch itself isn't really visible until you get right next to it because of the way the terrain slopes.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

So little is described of the lands to the south of Gondor that I wouldn't really mind if the devs come up with new mountainous boundaries for some of these regions tbh. Ever since launch lots of regions in the game have always been delimited by mountains never mentioned in the books and that has never been much of an issue, with the devs freely flattening them or removing them altogether after adding a contiguous zone. Of course, they should never be anywhere near the size of the biggest mountain ranges in Middle-earth (like the Misties or the White Mountains), but aside from that it's fair game imo. Especially now, since everything about Umbar and Harad is pretty close to a blank slate anyway. For example, I just checked Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, which I recall has helped the development of the game's world in the past quite a bit, and it didn't even mention Harad and Umbar anywhere. The name appears on some maps and that's it. No texts describing their geography, climate or vegetation at all.

I do like the suggestion of heat resistance being added to gear in some form. I'll always support adding some light metroidvania elements. And seas of sand have always been used in many games as boundaries. Tatooine's Dune Sea in SW:Knights of the Old Republic had a message saying "A vast expanse of desert stretches before you, with no markers or any indications of life. It would be a deathtrap for anyone wandering aimlessly." Something like that would certainly be a more subtle way of restricting player movement than a big rock in the middle of the road, lol. However, while that would work perfectly to prevent players from leaving Umbar towards Harad, I don't think the same applies to Harondor, which isn't supposed to have such an arid and hot climate. So if the devs feel the need to connect the land between Gondor and Umbar with a coastal section of Harondor with a new mountain range as a boundary, then fine by me, really.

Something like this, I mean:


As you can see, I tentatively named that coastal region "Bay of Belfalas" since it's explicitely mentioned in the 2023 Road Map letter. I think that would be a more manageable way of reaching Umbar with the given time constraints (Q4 2023), and there would always be time to bring these mountains down and add the entirety of Harondor later on. Then again, lately I keep underestimating their ability to add huge chunks of land in a single update: I didn't expect Yondershire to be so big, and I certainly didn't expect them to add two regions as big as CardoSwan in a single update. So who knows? And, as has been mentioned before, there's also a fairly decent chance of Umbar remaining an isolated place for the time being as Eryn Lasgalen was at some point, with players getting sent there on boat from Pelargir.

I can definitely see the reason for this suggestion - the area to cover is pretty vast and even with the size of CardoSwan, I am concerned whether it can all be done by Autumn.

However, I agree with Tesalion in that it would run rather contrary to some of the more recent approaches to landscape design, and would echo too much the more maligned Gondor approach.

While I think the regions such as Harondor might be a little smaller than shown on this map, I do think that Harondor should fully stretch between the Mountains of Mordor, the Poros abs the other river to the south. This would provide obvious boundaries (the river, the Mountains of Shadow) for most of the area. I’d then mind less if they narrowed the accessible lands on the way down to Umbar as you’ve shown - but this is where they can perhaps start to deploy the desert technique (once far enough away from the river). This area can then be opened up more in a later update.

That said, looking at the scale of it, I’m still half convinced they’ll just ship us down to Umbar and then fill in the gaps later.

[SophieTheEnchantress]

This is a fun discussion.

I wonder if the artists will add camels and camel mounts with the desert regions.

Mists of Ravenloft for Dungeons & Dragons Online uses a border of thick fog to obscure the boundary around the region. Stepping into the fog causes damage or teleports the character to a new location.

Something similar could work in Middle Earth. For example, taking the thick foliage boundary suggestion above, if a character wanders into the thick foliage bordering a region, he or she becomes lost and teleports to a random spot somewhere else along the boundary.

On the ocean, perhaps fog or a storm serves as the boundary. Sailing into the fog or storm causes the ship to become lost, appearing at some random location. That sort of thing happened a lot in classical and medieval times.

Does the map extend even further east and south? Will we eventually reach the Middle Earth versions of Siberia, China, and south Africa?

[TesalionLortus]

Hmm, I'm not expecting THAT many new creatures for Umbar, I guess, since it's somehow tolerable if they aren't brand new yet. But moving into actual Harad and its deserts and environments, yeah, I would love to see new creatures - they need to replace all the elks, squirrels, lynxes, and whatever we had so far for ambience...

and also new mobs! Like brand new... seriously, that's needed. They can have some reskins here and there if fits, but overall seeing reskinned wargs, wolfs, craban, bears, hawks, orcs, gredbyg, spiders, caveclaws = would be super lame. More new things, less reskins. Nothing would feel different if the reskins overwhelm the scene. Sabretooths shouldn't belong in Harad either, since these are very clearly associated with Rhun and employed by the Easterling soldiers.

They have all brand new cool things they can tap into, in the South. Scorpions, lions, giant snakes, non-Egyptian mummies (if Haradrim ancestors treated their dead that way perhaps). For ghost types too, they can have something new possibly. Sand-storm spirits are a good idea but with a model like the one utilized in Pughlok instance. Desert bandits and brigands, new models than the Western counterpart, possibly both mounted and dismounted. Camel riders. New types of reptiles, not just worms and lizards. Plus, they can also come up with brand new types of creatures here, like they've done before, rather than just reflect the real world.

[Scenario]

Mists of Ravenloft for Dungeons & Dragons Online uses a border of thick fog to obscure the boundary around the region. Stepping into the fog causes damage or teleports the character to a new location.

Something similar could work in Middle Earth. For example, taking the thick foliage boundary suggestion above, if a character wanders into the thick foliage bordering a region, he or she becomes lost and teleports to a random spot somewhere else along the boundary.

On the ocean, perhaps fog or a storm serves as the boundary. Sailing into the fog or storm causes the ship to become lost, appearing at some random location. That sort of thing happened a lot in classical and medieval times.

I actually did something like this for the War of Three Peaks version of Elderslade. If you head north, you'll hit a dense fog/cloud bank that will just waypoint you back down the hill facing south. For limited area choke points, that might work well, we'd have to experiment with it more to see how useful it is for broader areas.

[TesalionLortus]

I actually did something like this for the War of Three Peaks version of Elderslade. If you head north, you'll hit a dense fog/cloud bank that will just waypoint you back down the hill facing south.

Yes, that one was pretty nice and surprising! I very much enjoyed seeing this effect.

New kinds or just varied ways of producing a border (rather than a single method applied to the entire border) would be welcome, yep It may give us this feeling of more open borders. Plus, I really wouldn't mind an invisible wall here or there to0, if it gives us open view into distance (so for sea, for example, better invisible border like many games do, rather than stormy clouds on the entire horizon)

[Hierona]

I actually did something like this for the War of Three Peaks version of Elderslade. If you head north, you'll hit a dense fog/cloud bank that will just waypoint you back down the hill facing south. For limited area choke points, that might work well, we'd have to experiment with it more to see how useful it is for broader areas.

That would work wonders in a dessert where you can set sandstorms to border it.

[Aleziana]

O wanted to add something to Senario iteself.

I know that Umbar is founded by Numenorians the same people who founded Gondor and Arnor and you will probably use that state to make your 8 hours every day job to make your life easier so you can go home and relax with your family later at night i completely understand you FOR REAL but for the God of the SAKE and for all the gods who rule this Earth and Arda itself and for the sake of MONEY and every atom in this universe and for our beloved professor Tolkien who is relaxing evermore in his GOLDEN grave along with his one ring and for the sake of the English language that i have completely destroyed with this post ( I m asking you so save English language !!!) please PLEASE please pLeAsE....

Do not i repeat DO NOT!!! COPY AND PASTE any Gondorian/Arnorian Asset or even better do not COPY PASTE or use /RE-SKIN any any ANY of the older ASET exist in this game files the past 16 years!!!! MAKE MAKE MAKE MAKE >>>>> NEW<<<<<< assets !!!! AND I LL GIVE YOU A PROMISE THAT I WILL BUY THE 100+ DOLLAR EXPANTION PACK although i only support DWARVES.

P.S I M TALKING FOR THE CITY-BUILDING

[Phantion]

I actually did something like this for the War of Three Peaks version of Elderslade. If you head north, you'll hit a dense fog/cloud bank that will just waypoint you back down the hill facing south. For limited area choke points, that might work well, we'd have to experiment with it more to see how useful it is for broader areas.

Guild Wars 2 also has "quicksand ponds" that very quickly slay the character when falling into them - off in the Crystal Desert. So that might be . . . another way to consider it - though instead of an "instant-one-shot," it could be more gradual like Forochel's bay waters and some stretches of the Anduin's and Morgulduin's currents. It's just a thought! I'm very excited about Umbar and about boats!

Question: Do you think it would be possible for the new boats-in-discussion to have a good use on existing bodies of water in-game? Like Nen Harn, Lake Evendim, the Swanfleet Waters / Gwaithlo, Bruinen, and Hoarwell, the Brandywine, the Lune, and perhaps also . . . the Anduin? Kind of like how we can ride on warsteeds in pre-Rohan zones though without using skills?

I know the Anduin would run into some issues with the "kill-wall" near Lothlorien and Sarn Gebir in the Wold, but TBH: I'd much rather deal with that and have to "pick up and carry my boat to safer waters" like the Fellowship did than not have the ability to navigate the Anduin at all.

*I have a potential solution, by the way, for the kill-wall in the Anduin by Lothlorien: Why not just . . . for now . . . just put an invisible wall on the shores of the Mirk-Eaves and remove the kill-wall? As a temporary solution to by-pass the need to "revise the Mirkwood landing" right now, given that the latter is a ton of work? *It would allow players to swim that stretch of Anduin without dying while also preventing issues with the Volume II Book 9 circumstances. I'd much rather have that than the existing kill-wall.

But even if that suggestion's just not possible right now . . . I'd still love to be able to "boat down the Anduin" and just have the wherewithal in myself as the player to "pick up and climb down the Reikvoss and Rauros, avoid the stretch near Lothlorien and Sarn Gebir," etc. If I'm boating, and I accidentally "die," well . . . that's really on me as the player for not paying attention, in my view. Sometimes, in this game, one simply has to know things or look them up!

---

I also agree with Aleziana.

I know Faramir describes Minas Tirith as "the City of the Men of Numenor" - yet it might be called a "reflection" of the glory that once was Numenor. So . . . I actually would suggest thinking . . . of out-doing what the "Rings of Power" series did. RoP just basically took the way Peter Jackson portrayed Gondor and make it a bit shinier, cleaner - but there was just a lot of repetition.

So . . . even though such structures would probably be ruins . . . in Umbar . . . I think just making it, say, a copy of Osgiliath or Harndirion or Ost Dunhoth would pretty much "elevate the grandeur" of those ruins too much while lowering "the Numenor standard" significantly. All of Gondor and Arnor's buildings, even in their ruins, should probably pale in comparison to Numenor's ruins . . . with Numenor, it would be great to see just some visual nods to Ar-Pharazon and how he likely built-up Umbar . . . and a certain collapsed pillar would help a lot too there. Tolkien referred to Egypt when describing Numenor at some points and Atlantis at others.

I think Tolkien's point was that Gondor, even at its height, paled in comparison to "Numenor that was" - a "pale shadow" of the lost past, if you will, built with lesser materials since Numenor sank beneath the waves. This is likely our sole opportunity to really see . . . Numenor at it's height. We "missed the boat" with Pelargir there - and I could see Ar-Pharazon transporting some Numenorean stone to Umbar to built-up the haven and make it far more magnificent visually than the humbler "Pelargir of the Faithful" - and I could even see the Black Numenoreans "Mordor-izing" some of those Numenorean ruins to basically make it their chief realm under Sauron.

It's pretty clear to me, from the game's story so far, that the Corsairs are at the bottom of the hierarchy while the "Lords of Umbar" and "Heirs of Castamir" are at the pinnacle - though beneath Sauron, the Nine, and the Gurzyul in that order.

Also, perhaps there are more Gurzyul out there we haven't met yet? I'd imagine Sauron wanted strong lieutenants to locally control those parts of his empire that the Nine got called away from on various tasks - just as he had the "Gorgoroth Gurzyul" commanding his keeps, dungeons, and fortresses inside Mordor itself. There have to be more out there, I'm thinking, given how vast the East and South are. Where Karazgar was more of a traveler, Ugrukhor was more rooted in place like Borangos and Dulgabeth - so I'm thinking more of those latter types. Every Carn Dum needs it's Mordirith, I guess?

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

I agree. Umbar should be like Pelargil... and what I mean by it isn't feel free to reuse Pelargil assets. Pelargil basically uses Gondor assets, but there are a few different touches (of Numenor?) here and there, with these thinner spired towers. So... Umbar should be the same. After all this time, it's been probably renovated and rebuilt somewhat many times that it's already looking more Southern/Umbarian than Numenorean/Gondorian - and not in the Minas Morgul way either, with older ruined foundations and black crude architecture on top, not at all! This gotta be a Southern city in its own right, with its own consistent architecture, history and splendor. Maybe somewhat crude, if we're talking slave marketplaces and whatnot, but nowhere near the levels of Mordor. Probably it should also give us some early sneak peak of some Haradrim architecture too?

Well, after what they've done for Cardolan... clearly they can create a brand new set for a full-blown expansion, no? Hopefully...

Plus, it would also require them to settle this once and for all if they haven't already - what is Numenorean style and what is new, unique to Arnor and Gondor? (so they know which elements exactly they gotta incorporate as Numenorean, amongst this new Umbarian Southern take when creating Umbar and Umbar set). Is the way Gondor and Pelargil look more Numenorean? Minus the wings and some modern touches? Or is the Annuminas style a much stronger Numenorean inspiration, with the thin spires and spikes? Which is which? You know, consistency. Even if this wasn't necessarily defined at conception (since these were added over the years) this is the time to know the answer. Pretty important when figuring out Umbar, IMO. They probably need to start from there, then move to define whether it would mean something architecturally that Umbar was a bastion of King's Men (which would somehow make it different, in some subtle ways), and THEN move to paint a picture of what the architecture looks like under renovations and influence of the South, after all these years and rule of the Corsairs. Really want to see it done consistently like that and maybe then see a cool article and video about it when expansion is out Definitely not... done on a whim, with randomly taking inspiration (or repainting..) any of the existing assets and saying it'll work out

[TesalionLortus]

Also, perhaps there are more Gurzyul out there we haven't met yet? I'd imagine Sauron wanted strong lieutenants to locally control those parts of his empire that the Nine got called away from on various tasks - just as he had the "Gorgoroth Gurzyul" commanding his keeps, dungeons, and fortresses inside Mordor itself. There have to be more out there, I'm thinking, given how vast the East and South are. Where Karazgar was more of a traveler, Ugrukhor was more rooted in place like Borangos and Dulgabeth - so I'm thinking more of those latter types. Every Carn Dum needs it's Mordirith, I guess?

There are two remaining Gurzyul. Karazgar seemed like a special case, an assassin fetch boy type, basically Sauron's trusted secret agent. The other Gurzyul really seemed like just governors taking care of things in his dominion (that the Nazgul couldn't really efficiently take care of because... well, one can't even keep their thoughts straight in their presence and they're not exactly humanized and thus adequate for certain tasks). But the two remaining spots I think should be in Nurn - there gotta be other important strongholds in there, plus it's a food basket of Mordor, very strategically important - if there were Gurzyul governors in Gorgoroth, there gotta be there too.

South should be its own thing, and it has many smaller kingdoms, it's not exactly something to be governed by a single Gurzyul. Black Numenorean ambassador types would have been enough. But my idea was that they could have a Gurzyul show up - one of them can decide to just abandon Mordor, like Karazgar did, and try to seize the South, starting with Umbar. Well, unless their idea is, that there is a Karazgar counterpart - so also more of an assassin type for dirty work - for the South, just like Karazgar was for the entirety of the North and Rhun (but he was also a dragon tamer, so idk, this other guy would need some specialization too in that case, not just a Southern covert agent).


Ohhhh, also, I really think it's self evident we should be able to swim on ANY water. No way it wouldn't be possible! And rather than ask for older region allowance like they did for war-steeds, I gotta say... even IF by any miracle they actually came up with relevant lvl 140 combat for these boats... the ability for a boat itself should be obtainable at level 20 or something lower like that, without combat skills.

[Phantion]

I agree. Umbar should be like Pelargil... and what I mean by it isn't feel free to reuse Pelargil assets. Pelargil basically uses Gondor assets, but there are a few different touches (of Numenor?) here and there, with these thinner spired towers. So... Umbar should be the same. After all this time, it's been probably renovated and rebuilt somewhat many times that it's already looking more Southern/Umbarian than Numenorean/Gondorian - and not in the Minas Morgul way either, with older ruined foundations and black crude architecture on top, not at all! This gotta be a Southern city in its own right, with its own consistent architecture, history and splendor. Maybe somewhat crude, if we're talking slave marketplaces and whatnot, but nowhere near the levels of Mordor. Probably it should also give us some early sneak peak of some Haradrim architecture too?

Well, after what they've done for Cardolan... clearly they can create a brand new set for a full-blown expansion, no? Hopefully...

Plus, it would also require them to settle this once and for all if they haven't already - what is Numenorean style and what is new, unique to Arnor and Gondor? (so they know which elements exactly they gotta incorporate as Numenorean, amongst this new Umbarian Southern take when creating Umbar and Umbar set). Is the way Gondor and Pelargil look more Numenorean? Minus the wings and some modern touches? Or is the Annuminas style a much stronger Numenorean inspiration, with the thin spires and spikes? Which is which? You know, consistency. Even if this wasn't necessarily defined at conception (since these were added over the years) this is the time to know the answer. Pretty important when figuring out Umbar, IMO. They probably need to start from there, then move to define whether it would mean something architecturally that Umbar was a bastion of King's Men (which would somehow make it different, in some subtle ways), and THEN move to paint a picture of what the architecture looks like under renovations and influence of the South, after all these years and rule of the Corsairs. Really want to see it done consistently like that and maybe then see a cool article and video about it when expansion is out Definitely not... done on a whim, with randomly taking inspiration (or repainting..) any of the existing assets and saying it'll work out

I hope so! But I do disagree with you a little bit Re- Minas Morgul.

At first glance, Black Numenoreans are sorcerers who dwell in dark towers. So, there has to be at least "some of that" to showcase that, yes - the culture's different, it has it's own majesty and so forth ---> but it's also under Sauron's iron grip as part of his empire. It would be like asking to portray Egypt during the Pax Romana without any Roman roads, temples, forums, or hints of Rome's dominance. You need - some - of that. Sauron is not egalitarian. He's the ultimate totalitarian monster- the Dark Lord - and the Great Eye is in charge. So, we should expect to see that visually in Umbar somehow - not everywhere, but certainly in a place that's visible.

Empires like Sauron's are great at making their presence known visually through images, statues, and architecture. Shelley put it best: "My name is Ozymandas, King of Kings / Tremble, all ye mighty and despair!" ("Ozymandias"). Now, perhaps, rather than a Mordor aesthetic - a "dark tower" - Sauron could take the "look fairer and feel fouler" approach: maybe instead of a dark tower . . . it's gold and red? Like Ar-Pharazon the Golden? Maybe it's . . . to keep the "King's Men" in line? Maybe . . . Sauron's really good at using outward appearances, glory, etc., to conceal what he has hidden behind Mordor's mountain walls? Maybe . . . Annatar-style iconography is everywhere, and a red Great Eye on a banner of gold instead of black? Maybe there's a lot of "outward visual beauty" to conceal the "inner horror"?

I think, having written this out, I ultimately agree with you, TesalionLortus. Let's meet halfway: I do think Sauron wouldn't let the memory of Numenor get the grandeur. He'd stamp his own self-image on it - perhaps in his fairer form - and make himself look powerful.

Some "Star Wars" games did something similar. In the "Battlefront II campaign," there are images of Palpatine as Emperor BUT as he looked before Master Windu and company paid him a final visit at his Office in ROTS- - - while he kept his more decrepit, crone-like form hidden from the general populace. It's also probably why he's never appeared in the Imperial Senate so far in "Andor" - and if he did, he'd probably use a hologram resembling his "pre-force-lightning-self."

I could see Sauron doing something very similar with "Antheron." Maybe that image gets repurposed in Umbarrim and Haradrim contexts instead of High Elvish? There's a lot of potential here!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

I hope so! But I do disagree with you a little bit Re- Minas Morgul.

At first gklance, Black Numenoreans are sorcerers who dwell in dark towers. So, there has to be at least "some of that" to showcase that, yes - the culture's different, it has it's own majesty and so forth ---> but it's also under Sauron's iron grip as part of his empire. It would be like asking to portray Egypt during the Pax Romana without any Roman roads, temples, forums, or hints of Rome's dominance. You need - some - of that. Sauron is not egalitarian. He's the ultimate totalitarian monster- the Dark Lord - and the Great Eye is in charge. So, we should expect to see that visually in Umbar somehow - not everywhere, but certainly in a place that's visible.

Empires like Sauron's are great at making their presence known visually through images, statues, and architecture. Shelley put it best: "My name is Ozymandas, King of Kings / Tremble, all ye mighty and despair!" ("Ozymandias"). Now, perhaps, rather than a Mordor aesthetic - a "dark tower" - Sauron could take the "look fairer and feel fouler" approach: maybe instead of a dark tower . . . it's gold and red? Like Ar-Pharazon the Golden? Maybe it's . . . to keep the "King's Men" in line? Maybe . . . Sauron's really good at using outward appearances, glory, etc., to conceal what he has hidden behind Mordor's mountain walls? Maybe . . . Annatar-style iconography is everywhere, and a red Great Eye on a banner of gold instead of black? Maybe there's a lot of "outward visual beauty" to conceal the "inner horror"?

I think, having written this out, I ultimately agree with you, TesalionLortus. Let's meet halfway: I do think Sauron wouldn't let the memory of Numenor get the grandeur. He'd stamp his own self-image on it - perhaps in his fairer form - and make himself look powerful.

Some "Star Wars" games did something similar. In the "Battlefront II campaign," there are images of Palpatine as Emperor BUT as he looked before Master Windu and company paid him a final visit at his Office in ROTS- - - while he kept his more decrepit, crone-like form hidden from the general populace. It's also probably why he's never appeared in the Imperial Senate so far in "Andor" - and if he did, he'd probably use a hologram resembling his "pre-force-lightning-self."

I could see Sauron doing something very similar with "Antheron." Maybe that image gets repurposed in Umbarrim and Haradrim contexts instead of High Elvish? There's a lot of potential here!

Cheers!

Yeah, I could see something like that. IMO there might be things in Umbar that are distinctively Umbar - and for the glory of Umbar, corsair lords, vessel memorials and whatnot! - doesn't need to be just Sauron with his crude orc-slave builders and black towers and scary black statues. I agree that there can be a place where some of the sorcerers study and occupy maybe a tower yeah, a place of knowledge as it were... and that it can have a sorcery vibe around it. But doesn't need to be black black dark crude goth assets out of Mordor. It may be somehow better incorporated in the entire city and have its unique Umbar dark arts vibe. Maybe they can use some iron, so more like in Angmar, albeit not as obsessive. And yes, orcs were... well, orcs. And men of Mordor are outright fanatics bred in this dark realm so go figure. But amongst men in particular the idea that Sauron is worshiped under a nicer visage would be an interesting one - might have scary elements of course but doesn't mean it gotta be crude black statue of a clear-cut monster god. There is a lot of potential to be actually NEW here with this content... and convey this sense of different culture. I would hope so. Which your Egypt example actually is in favor of it rather than against I think it was very much very Greek late into the Roman Empire (just like the entirety of the Eastern half was, to a large extent, and then influenced Byzantine Empire). Like, obviously they would built some roads and have things in place where they were needed, but overall you don't redefine what worked and ancient world was synchronic for beliefs anyway - you would have the Emperor injecting their image as Pharaoh, on some reliefs, rather than getting rid of the thing or local customs and replacing with some communism uniformity. I guess Sauron can work a bit like that too amongst men. Who knows, at the very least he could have incorporated one of his Nazgul as a sort of demigod and father to the Corsairs (the one who was known as the Corsair himself).

PS: But I don't think we're going to see like Sauron's banners everywhere (unless it's a specifically dedicated temple). It's more of a feudal system, at least at this stage, when Sauron still wages war on the West and hasn't dominated everything. I don't think we've seen any Eye banners used by the Corsairs, Easterlings or Haradrim - they just use their own banners. I think Sauron might have eventually dominated everything the Palpatine/Empire way if he wasn't stopped but I think Middle-earth isn't at all in that stage yet. It's pretty much still in the late feudal state, and the way he dominates is through feudal pacts (albeit a bit more Mordor'y) and himself being considered a god. But not exactly messing - not directly anyway - with architecture choices or banners and national matters. Though some of that may get through of course, if there are some Black Numenoreans of real devotion involved in local affairs.

[YamydeAragon]

Hmm, I'm not expecting THAT many new creatures for Umbar, I guess, since it's somehow tolerable if they aren't brand new yet. But moving into actual Harad and its deserts and environments, yeah, I would love to see new creatures - they need to replace all the elks, squirrels, lynxes, and whatever we had so far for ambience...

and also new mobs! Like brand new... seriously, that's needed. They can have some reskins here and there if fits, but overall seeing reskinned wargs, wolfs, craban, bears, hawks, orcs, gredbyg, spiders, caveclaws = would be super lame. More new things, less reskins. Nothing would feel different if the reskins overwhelm the scene. Sabretooths shouldn't belong in Harad either, since these are very clearly associated with Rhun and employed by the Easterling soldiers.

They have all brand new cool things they can tap into, in the South. Scorpions, lions, giant snakes, non-Egyptian mummies (if Haradrim ancestors treated their dead that way perhaps). For ghost types too, they can have something new possibly. Sand-storm spirits are a good idea but with a model like the one utilized in Pughlok instance. Desert bandits and brigands, new models than the Western counterpart, possibly both mounted and dismounted. Camel riders. New types of reptiles, not just worms and lizards. Plus, they can also come up with brand new types of creatures here, like they've done before, rather than just reflect the real world.

I like your wild life suggestions! Taking up where of left, here are some my wildlife ideas for the northern parts of Harad lands:

Beach shores:

• assorted kinds of seabirds (seagul, pelicans, Frigatebird, Albatros, Boby)
• swimming lizards (with webbed feet & dorsal fin like crest)
• Swimming marine snakes (with stealth skill)
• Sirenids
• Tide cycle wildlife like assorted kinds shelfish, sea cucumbers, or barnacles (not aggressive & can be foraged for cooking recipes use)
• washed ashore algae (can be foraged for cooking recipes use)
• Seagrass
• Seaside trees with long roots
• Beach grapes (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Coconut palm trees (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Huorn that look like the just above mentioned trees.
• occasional cetaceans, giant squids or giant octopus seeing from distance
• New kinds of catched marine fishes (usable for cooking & with new fish collection deed, including house decos representing all new kinds on a big wall item)
• Long legged crustaceans
• Crustaceans with big pincers
• Horseshoe crustaciean
• Sea turtles (have flippers, not walking legs)
• Otter like semi-aquatic mammals
• Occasional jellyfishes that wash asshore (will make beautiful house decoration tank & some are usable for cooking too)
• Walking fishes that occasionally walk to the beach (why not? a few species exist IRL, nocturnal)
• Fisher people & marketplace community (friendly)
• Military fort (not friendly)
• Docks & ships of varied kinds (fisher people, traders & militaries uses)
• Spear fishing people (After some spears training new quests, it can be the new fishing instrument, of a higher tier than the Laketown fishing rod)

Desert:

• Trap builder sand dune crawlers
• Dune scorpions (diurnal)
• Short maned lion prides
• 2-humped dromedaries herds
• Huge camel spiders (nocturnal)
• Giant horned lizards (diurnal)
• Giant desert runner ant swarms (diurnal)
• Migrating Wild mumak families
• Giant Vipers (nocturnal)
• Vultures (can be seeing at any cycle of the day)
• Crystalized sand trolls (sorta like a translucent rock)
• Half Trolls (because we know those came from Harad lands)
• Sand storm grims (nocturnal)
• Sand dried undead (nocturnal)
• Dromedary mounting brigands (nocturnal)
• Brigands at oasis camp with tents
• Nomadic caravans (friendly people)
• Nomads camps with tents (friendly people)
• Succulent & torned flora (small & arborcescent)
• Dates palm trees at oasis (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Fig Trees (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Huorn that look like the just above mentioned trees.
• Piramid like ruins with sorcerers crawlers, bugs & undead

Savana:

• Macaque like apes
• Mother Sulokil with baby & Solitary Sulokil bull
• Wild mumak families foraging
• Hyenas families (noctunal)
• Gacels herds (varied species)
• Savana wild cow novines herd
• Long neck equines herds with exotic colours & patterns
• Long mane lion prides
• Savana wild canines families (not necessary wargs)
• Grass jumping cats (solitary)
• Racer cats (solitary)
• Burrowing weasels families
• Huge constrictor snakes
• Long crested porcupine
• Swarms of killer bees
• Giant locust swarms
• Salty drinkers butterfly swarms
• Giant dung beetle
• Walking eagles
• Terrestrial Ostrich like birds flocks
• Hornbilled birds
• Savana fowls flocks
• Communal nesting bird flocks
• Migratory hawks
• Bush wild people hunters & gatherers live in dirt huts (varied tribes, both friendly & not so friendly kinds)
• Giant ground termites nests (nocturnal)
• Acacia trees
• Baobab Trees
• Fig Trees (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Carob Trees (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Huorn that look like the just above mentioned trees.
• Small ''bird pets'' that follow around the bigger mammals or ride over them (can assist attack or fly away)
• Wild Boars families (sory but the are really successful to adapt so they are everywhere, some new appearance is a must)
• Honey Badgers
• Giant Anteaters

River side or swampy areas:

• Giant water scorpions
• Giant dragonflies
• Swimmer spiders
• Frogs
• Alligators (with stealth skill)
• Hippopotamus like creature (with stealth skill)
• Egrets in assorted species
• Fishing eagles (please give them the air diving animation)
• Swimming ducklike primitive birds
• Swimming river snakes (with stealth skill)
• Any of the savana animals bathing &/or drinking
• Rice & sugar cane (usable on farm & cook recipes)
• Drowned muddy undead (nocturnal)
• Mud trolls
• Axolotl like salamanders that have fins (nocturnal)
• Spear fishing people

Some day (maybe next year) we may adventure southern into Harad lands & discover lush tropical jungles with 4 times more exotic creature. But this is good for now.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Some day (maybe next year) we may adventure southern into Harad lands & discover lush tropical jungles with 4 times more exotic creature. But this is good for now.

I'd assume next year would be them connecting Umbar to the rest of Gondor.

The main jungles of Harad are so far south it would take like 4-5 maps worth just to even begin getting close to them, and I doubt SSG is going to go that far south. More likely they will have part of the jungle spread up along the coast into lower Umbar.

[TesalionLortus]

here are some my wildlife ideas for the northern parts of Harad lands:

Oh yes, love these suggestions! I really really hope this is something we're going to see that refreshes the game and makes these lands different. Not just more of the same same fauna and flora with same same models.

[miriadel]

incoming level 150 Harad Boar that looks just like the level 5 Bree Boar XD I'm sure that they'll build enough new landscape assets that the new biom will look..... well, new and not rehashed, but I do not expect things like mobs to have anything new but a palette swap at best. Including the corsairs