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not weaker- balrogs were maiar too, and gandalf cast durins bane down, also if gandalf before being sent back could do it, then i reckon so could sarumanQuote:
Originally Posted by amien
also they were agents of secrecy, just like gandalf is unwilling to reveal himself as the white to sauron until the time is right
Which is why I said the term un-west doesn't make sense in-universe. :) The concrete opposite of Aman would thus be the land in the far East where the Gates of Morning? stood. Also remember that Elves (and thus Sindarin) existed long before the Sun. They might not have had a word for west back then. And another thing is that Utumno itself is even older than Valinor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithfindel
Logically, yes, because originally Saruman was presumably the strongest of them. However, he'd frittered away most of his power on making things that were either useless (like his robe of many colours) or evil. It's remarked that Saruman's wizardry seemed to have been going downhill lately - that's why he can't do anything much about the Ents, and is seen to rely on some sort of machinery rather than magic. He'd largely traded one for the other, and was the poorer for it. Presumably he'd been trying to do too much too quickly and had overtaxed himself, because Sauron never seemed to run out of steam like that despite employing similar methods (which Saruman was just copying). But if you notice, Sauron always took a long, long time making plans and gathering his strength. He hadn't been planning to attack the Free Peoples so soon (he'd wanted to get even more Men up from the East and South and crush all opposition by weight of numbers), but his hand had been forced.Quote:
Originally Posted by richsabre
yes, agreed, however i was thinking more along the lines of saruman of the white, before his corruption, i found this thought interesting when i posted it, i started a thread on another lore forum discussing it, as i partly think he could, however as well as i can remember we never see saruman use his magic like gandalf, his powers are more of creation, machinery and domination of the mind, his tongue is his weapon, so perhaps he could have talked the balrog out of it? (JOKE!!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
The thing is, we never see Saruman given cause to start hurling magic about until later, when his wizardry had already waned. Tolkien avoided having too much magic in the books: Gandalf's exploits are typically told of in retrospect, so he doesn't make the rest of the Fellowship look superfluous.Quote:
Originally Posted by richsabre
The reason Saruman was so much into making things is that he'd been one of Aulë's attendant Maiar (just as Sauron had once been) and so liked to tinker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
I never even thought of that! I think its really neat how things like tie in together :P
Does anyone know why Durin's Bane was the last of the Balrogs? I couldn't find anything on the Wiki that explains it. Also, just how strong do you guys think it would have been, compared to the others? Grothmog was supposed to be the strongest, but wasn't he ultimately killed by an Elf?
i believe it survived the 1st age by hiding under the mountains- though dont qoute me on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by amien
also i see nothing to point that it was a balrog of superior significance- it just happened to be a majorly powerful being left over in the third age
remember that in the third age being such as balrogs and smaug were creatures of legend- smaug and durins bane were all that were left- apart from the mysterious wild were worms of thelast desert which we hear bilbo say in the hobbit
I think the Balrog slaying by elves he is referring to is in the Fall of Gondolin. both Echthelion and Glorfindel slew Balrogs, although both lost their own life in the process. ( although if i recall, Echthelion slew several Balrogs before battling Gothmog, the head Balrog). this is without looking up those tales.
And Durin's Bane may not be "the last of the Balrogs". At the end of the first age, when the HOst of Valinor overthrew Morgoth, they destroyed Angbad, but the book specificallly says, they did not kill every creature of Morgoth, nor explore every deep crevasse. The eventually Buried many cratures of Morgoth so deep they would never be seen again.
But the dwarves "delved too deeply" in thier lust for mithril and uncovered a Balrog.
ahh i had forgotten that, i was thinking more along the lines of the last that are ever seen ie we never hear of another dragon and we never hear of another balrog- though i do wonder how many balrogs and other fell creatures lay in wait, to be uncovered? like the nameless creaturesQuote:
Originally Posted by Galadh
The Fall of Gondolin was a very, very early work and between the writing of that and LOTR whole decades had passed. During that time, Tolkien's ideas changed and LOTR's Balrog is different, vastly more powerful and a lot harder to kill. The number of Balrogs also shrank dramatically, down to single figures. It's a consequence of the idea of them being Maiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadh
Not until the end of the world, at least.Quote:
And Durin's Bane may not be "the last of the Balrogs". At the end of the first age, when the HOst of Valinor overthrew Morgoth, they destroyed Angbad, but the book specificallly says, they did not kill every creature of Morgoth, nor explore every deep crevasse. The eventually Buried many cratures of Morgoth so deep they would never be seen again.
I think I read somewhere that the Fall of Gondolin was perhaps the first thing Tolkien ever wrote of the Middle Earth world, penned sometime during WWI in its first incarnation.
And while I agree that Balrogs became more powerful, the rendition of the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales states that prior to that day no elf had ever slain a Balrog (I think I'm recalling that right; maybe it was slaying one without dying) and that the folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed many ere they themselves were surrounded and slaughtered.
Yep. It was while he was back in England, recovering from an illness he'd contracted while on the Western Front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulkfather
Can you seriously imagine any amount of Elves slaying 'many' Maiar, especially fiery ones that (unlike Sauron) were downright lethal in a fight? (Sauron being more the crafty sorcerer type). Look how long it takes Gandalf to defeat the Balrog in LOTR - 'epic' doesn't do that fight justice. He could only do that because he was a Maia himself.Quote:
And while I agree that Balrogs became more powerful, the rendition of the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales states that prior to that day no elf had ever slain a Balrog (I think I'm recalling that right; maybe it was slaying one without dying) and that the folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed many ere they themselves were surrounded and slaughtered.
Remember, the Balrog of Moria was too much for a whole city of Dwarves to handle. Without a doubt, LOTR's Balrog was something far more terrible than the ones in TFoG.
The counter argument is that Echtelion defeated Gothmog effectively solo, which account remained even after Balrogs had been strengthened to Maiar level, that Glorfindel of Gondolin also defeated a Balrog solo (both perishing in the attempt), and therefore a large group of elves, especially mighty in battle as the Hammer of Wrath people were, could have done a bit of damage before they died.
Look, I'm not saying Balrogs are weak. I'm saying that even in the weaker beginning they were very strong, and that there is canonical support for a non-Maia being able to defeat a Balrog, generally speaking. Therefore, the greatest warriors probably can take one on in single combat and win, though they will likely lose their lives in the fight. That's all. :)
a point that has just occured to me- which isnt meant to change the above, its just a thought-
gandalf chose to destroy the bridge instead of kill it outright-fair enough he may have thought that the drop could have killed it, but if he was confident of beating it, being a maiar of all good, im guessing he would have taken the chance to rid the world of it-
but no, he destroys its chance of following, now maybe he was just in a hurry to get out of moria- who wouldnt be, but i think it is at least an indicator that he wasnt confident at taking it down hand to hand/power to power- especially given that he was 'already weary' (an outcome we all know of course that he can indeed kill it in the end)
Neither Balrog was defeated by force of arms alone, so no. Gothmog and Ecthelion drowned together in the deep waters of the Fountain; Glorfindel and his Balrog died together when they fell from the pinnacle they were fighting on into the abyss below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulkfather
There is no real counter-argument because Christopher Tolkien confirms in HoME that the early conception of Balrogs was that of something less strong, far more numerous, and far more easily destroyed. The idea of 'many' Balrogs being slain is entirely incompatible with the later idea of there only ever having been a few of them!
I think it's telling that old man Tolkien never managed to rewrite The Fall of Gondolin.
Additionally, Gandalf's task wasn't to answer to force with force, but rather to act as an advisor to the Free Peoples. He mentioned being already tired, but, apparently, could in a pitch muster enough strength to fight the Balrog. (Might be some fine print on the whole wizard contract.) As for the Balrog kills by the two Gondolindrim lords, what Radhruin mentioned. (I would also assume that the pure spring of the fountain of Gondolin helped Ecthelion a good bit - but this isn't exactly backed by anything in writing.)
I think there is at least three somewhat-complete Fall of Gondolin manuscripts (but I'd need to check that) plus possibly one poem. The first one has Balrogs and dragons dying in droves, and successive rewrites approach the version in published in the Silmarillion.
A funny note on weapons: Glamdring was used by Turgon only twice in battle - in Nirnaeth and then in Gondolin. Yet Orcs (ahem, goblins) in the Hobbit immediately recognized it! Though it might be that the sword was taken from Gondolin after its destruction and thus saw use later on by someone else, before it was eventually lost to the trolls. (Or then we just need to apply a good dose of "don't look at this too closely".)
Hey, Goblins are not idiots >.< :D They can also be learned in what all battles their ancestors fought in. It was said that the memory of Azanulbizar causes all Orcs to shudder and Dwarves to weep. Most of the Orcs were annihilated in the battle, so this clearly implies that their fear comes from the tales they heard of the battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithfindel
Or maybe the Trolls stole that loot from the Misty Mountains and the Goblins simply feared the sword because of the great power it showed when it was in their possession (ie they possessed it, not that they used it in battle)
Reading this thread has caused me to come up with a question regarding balrogs and the nazgul. Would the nazgul be considered equivalent in strength to a balrog or would they be somewhat lesser? The reason I ask is that in LotR Glorfindel was clearly able to face off several nazgul at once at the Last Bridge. Also, Glorfindel of Gondolin defeated a balrog, albeit in a different age. Unless nazgul are weaker than balrogs one could assume that Glorfindel could take on a balrog in the 3rd age. Would the balrog in Moria be considered exceptional (even to the point of being stronger than Gothmog)?
Define strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunford
There are three kinds of strengths over here:
Physical and Psychological: Physically, a Balrog is definitely stronger. No exceptions. Psychologically, a Balrog causes the same amount, if not a higher, of fear as the Nazgul, in the hearts of the Free Peoples. The only Nazgul who would come even close to a Balrog in these strengths is the Witch-King.
Magical: A Balrog clearly defeats all the Nazgul combined here. That is, excluding the Witch-King. The Witch-king's spells aided Grond to break one of the strongest gates in Middle-Earth. The Witch-King's magical powers come close to a Balrog's, but since Balrogs are maiar, they are stronger in ths aspect too.
Third: A Blarog, though strong, would actually be a disadvantage if in an army. Sauron did not have the strength of will of Morgoth, so he definitely couldn't have controlled the Balrogs. His own armies would have fled, and in the end it would be a few Balrogs in the Battlefield.
A Nazgul, on the other hand, would be one of the best captains of an army, and in this aspect, a Nazgul would definitely be deadlier.
Durin's Bane was not, and could never be, as strong as Gothmog. We compare Gothmog's strength to Sauron, for Eru's sake. Gothmog was also a brilliant captain. Durin's bane was stronger than most balrogs, since a Balrog's power increases with time, so Glorfindel couldn't hope to beat him.
On the other hand, not even Gandalf could beat Gothmog. It took the most skilled Elf in arms (Ecthelion) to beat Gothmog, and even he didn't survive the fight.
Though, I don't mean that Balrogs were unable to lead armies. In the Fall of Gondolin, Balrog Captains led the armies of Morgoth. But this is the Great Enemy we are talking about. Sauron could not challenge even Denethor's will. Morgoth could control the many wills and whatnot of Arda. In fact, according to the book, everything evil is Morgoth's will.
Will is an extremely important aspect in Middle-Earth. The reason why the army of Aragorn survived the Battle of Morannon was that Sauron's will was diminished. Without his will, the Orcs, Trolls, etc. were mindless apes.
Thank you for your replies, but I fear it only deepens the question.
We have three examples from lore of noted combat between Free People and Balrogs. In two of the encounters, it was an elf that fought with a balrog. In one encounter it was a wizard that fought with a balrog. All three encounters with balrogs resulted in the death of both the antagonist and protagonist. I always considered Gothmog as the mightiest balrog, but he was defeated by an elf. Yet Gandalf fought with Durins Bane, and died as well. Either Gandalf is no more powerful than previous age elves (a premise I do not personally hold), or Durins Bane is more powerful than Gothmog. Individual characteristics can also greatly affect the equality of one particular encounter. It is not valid to say 'an elf' defeated a balrog, it was an 'exceptional elf with exceptional abilities'. But the abilities of a Maiar IMO should be higher than that of any of the elven race present in the 3rd age and at least equal to a 1st or 2nd age elf.
Which brings me to my original comparison of balrogs and the nazgul in the 3rd age. Could Glorfindel have defeated Durins Bane, or any other balrog present in the 3rd age (if there are any others)? Clearly he was capable of facing down several nazgul, but perhaps above posters are right in that the strength of the nazgul lies in different areas rather than raw power and combat related skills. Not that I consider balrogs as stupid, just better equipped for direct combat.
So how to make the seeming variance of:
Gothmog > Durins Bane,
Gothmog < elf,
Durins Bane < Gandalf,
yet Gandalf > elf
work in harmony?
As I said earlier: Ecthelion + deep waters of the Fountain of Gondolin > Gothmog (not just Ecthelion by himself)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunford
Glorfindel + falling into a chasm > that other Balrog (not just Glorfindel by himself)
Whereas Gandalf seems to have destroyed the Balrog of Moria by his own efforts, with its subsequent fall in ruin from the mountain-top just being the dramatic ending. So Gandalf > Elves, and all is good :)
More accurately,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunford
Gothmog > Durin's Bane
Gothmog = The most skilled Elf in war, in the entirety of Arda (Only exception Fingolfin)
Durin's Bane < Gandalf (By a small margin)
Gandalf > Your average Elf
The Heroes of Elves and Men of the first age (such as Ecthelion, Fingolfin, Hurin, Turin) were definitely stronger than Gandalf When it comes to combat. Leadership-wise, Gandalf was slightly better, as he also had Narya. But when you're fighting a Balrog, leadership doesn't hold that much weight.
DB used magic, something which Gothmog and the other Balrogs never did in the books IIRC. That's why it took someone special, like Gandalf, to beat him. Note, I say special, not stronger. I don't know whether this power was exclusive to DB. Also, his power increased as he lied in sleep for 5000 years.
If Ecthelion fought DB 1v1, Ecthelion would have won. But if he went through the same physical and mental strain that Gandalf did, the duel would have killed DB and him both. Though Gandalf is a Maiar and all that jazz, Ecthelion was a badass legend in combat.
As for Glorfindel, he would not have won against the Nazgul if he fought them. He just jumped them, as he was one of the few people the Nazgs could see. Also, he was a First Age hero, albeit not even near Ecthelion in strength. But Fear was an important weapon he had. If the Witch-King ever prepared before fighting him, I wouldn't be too sure of Glorfindel's victory.
As for Gandalf vs. Generic First Age Elven Hero (the very top tier, I'm looking at Fingolfin over here as an example), I'll use the same format as before:
Physical: Fingolfin wins
Psychological: Draw. Fingolfin could make the Orcs flee from their wrath, but Gandalf could bring hope like no other to the Freeps
Magical: Gandalf, obviously
Leadership: Another draw. Gandalf brought hope to his armies, whilst Fingolfin did not inspire as much as Gandalf, his leadership and strategical skills were far better. IMO.
Thus, IMO, They are evenly matched.
Lets put it this way....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunford
Gothmog > Durins Bane
Gothmog > average elf
Gothmog =< powerful elf of the 1st/2nd age
Gandalf >= Durins Bane
Gandalf <= Gothmog
(important point) Gandalf << Olorin (his Maia form)
Olorin > Elf, Durins Bane
Olorin >= Gothmog (supposedly, coz no one knows)
The important point everyone forgets is that Gandalf is NOT a Maia in full form when he fights Durins Bane, while Durins Bane is a full fledged Maia with no restraint on its power.....not to mention he is already tired and spent from his effort to seal the door to the chamber of mazarbul......so it was actually a weakened Gandalf against Durins Bane......and even then he fought till the death......If Olorin were to fight Gothmog or Durins Bane, the fight wouldve been much different....
Infact considering that Gandalf in his weakened mortal form could defeat a full Maia like Durins Bane before perishing himself, we can imagine what Olorin in his true form would be like.....
balrogs are maiarQuote:
Originally Posted by Dunford
nazgul are men, that are between life and death, granted limited powers by sauron
it goes without saying that balrogs are clearly superior
gandalf had trouble killing 1 balrog, on weathertop he held many nazgul off all night and came out of it fine
The Witch-King was not with Nazgul that day when Gandalf was attacked. Gandalf himself said that even he feared the Witch-King. Many points raised in the past few pages show that the Witch-king actually did come very close to DB in terms of power.Quote:
Originally Posted by richsabre
Remember, Sauron himself is giving the Nazgul their power. Durin's Bane, no matter how strong, was not nearly as powerful than Morgoth's sidekick. This is Sauron without the Ring. Had Sauron the Ring, the Nazgul would have increased in power enough to be an immensely difficult challenge even to the Heroes of the First Age. The Witch-King? He'd be more powerful than most Balrogs (By most I mean excluding Gothmog, at the very least.)
ENOUGH with saying the Maiar trump all races of Middle-Earth! END RACISM IN LOTR!:p
No, seriously, quite a few guys belonging to the races of M-E were more powerful than most Maiar.
When has Gandalf said he "fears" the Witch King? O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
If you mean when he says to Denethor, "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared"
When I read that, I read it as " For one has come that I feared would be sent against Gondor"
So I really think....although its just my take on it, he meant that he was worried that Sauron would send a powerful Lieutenant like the Witch King against Gondor.....this action is what he feared.....not the Witch King himself.....
Lol :o were since Maiar were sort of demi gods, the debate would always continue ^_^ but yes, a VERY few guys of ME can be said to be more powerful than Maiar.....Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Earendil to name a few :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
and just to emphasize it again.....people really need to stop treating and assuming Gandalf as a Maia.....he isnt.....Olorin is a Maia.....Gandalf is his mortal avatar....we cannot make a direct comparison unless we considered Gandalf's full power unleashed....
Well, if that's true, it's just weird how he cut off his statement like that. He should have said "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared *would be sent*"Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblade5445
IIRC, Denethor asked Gandalf why he came back and asked mockingly whether Gandalf was evenly matched, or overpowered by the Witch-King. Gandalf Doesn't deny this. The text says that he kept silence and "didn't retort" or something along those lines.
I think Gandalf is understandably worried by the Witch-King's presence:
They both use magic of nearly equal potency (WK enabled Grond to break the Impenetrable Gates, Gandalf set fire to nuts and threw em at wolves :p)
They both are great leaders
WK has the physical strength of a Troll, Gandalf is a genius (and an INTJ according to some psychologists)
They both are very, very wise.
Gandalf vs WK would have definitely been a tougher duel for Gandalf than the one with DB. Considering WK's strength and the many other factors, such as the 8 other Nazgul to aid him.
Oh, and though Glorfindel is an amazing hero and whatnot, he doesn't come close to Ecthelion and Fingolfin. The only Elves stronger than many Maiar were Glorfindel, Galadriel, Elrond and a few others. Their "power" was in skill in arms, foresight and knowledge. Elrond is part-maiar too.
Infact, all the Dunedain are part Maiar... THEY HAVE INFILTRATED OUR PURE RACES!:D
I appreciate the comments. It seems that the telling observation is that Gandalf, although also a Maia, had enough of his powers reduced to make the fight with DB a near equal contest. I've always considered Gandalf as the most powerful being in the 3rd age that is on the side of good but understand that he was also limited in his powers.
Makes sense now, thanks!
Just a thought about Orcs, and how they where *made* :
I think when Meriadoc and Peregrin are at Fangorn, they hear about that matter. Something like, Melkor created the orcs, as he wanted to create his own elves. But he was unable to create something of his own (because he wasn' t anywhere as powerful as Eru after all), so they just are somewhat shattered elves. Same as if a child would rebuild something an adult created, and of couse fail with it' s own work.
He (Melkor) also tried to create his own ents, and they came out as trolls...and so on.
Please correct me if I' m mistaken :)
I think there's an important aspect of war being left out of the equation here:
S*** happens. The US Army is widely held to be the most powerful fighting force on the planet. But is it unassailable? Not by a long shot. There are not only widely varying circumstances and random chance events that can work for or against the US Army, but there are also the strengths and weaknesses of any two combatants. US Army (ie, technology, size, superiority) would probably still have a bit of trouble with the army of People's Republic of China--their manpower is unmatched.
We know the US army certainly has trouble with non-standard warfare (Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan). Might alone is not enough to definitively answer these arguments, is what I'm saying.
So with that being said, let's re-examine things:
First off, Morgoth is stronger than Sauron, Sauron is stronger than Balrogs. Sauron might not be stronger than Gothmog.
HOWEVER, we also know that, given time, most creatures of morgoth/sauron tend to increase in power, perhaps as they have time to really come into their own with regards to the corruptions that have been bestowed upon them. For example, Glaurung was "relatively weak" when he first showed up, but then increased in power and presence. Smaug himself talks of how he used to be fairly squishy until he got his armor of gemstones etc. I think it's worth considering that Balrogs might also develop in strength as time goes on. In fact, the only instances we have of such beings diminishing over time rather than getting stronger is Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman, and all of those three were artificers. Tolkien REALLY believes in the power of the spirit as opposed to the power of the toys that we make for ourselves. Where he could, he even gave spirits to tools, such as Huan (who would have been viewed as slightly better than property back then, no question), gave a spirit Angrist? I think. One of those swords, anyway.
So I don't think it's all that incredible to claim that Durin's Bane could have paralleled or even excelled Gothmog in strength given that 2 ages have passed since the two were last out on a date.
As an aside--the "guidance" that Sauron gave his armies, the "cohesion" and "tactics" buffs, so to speak, I think it was the abruptness of their disappearing that sent the monsters into a panic, rather than its removal turned them into ambulatory vegetables...
In any event, let's now look at those combats:
Ecthelion/Glorfindel: both potent 1a elve who have seen the Trees and lived among the Gods. These things are not insignificant "buffs". In fact, I think it would be wicked cool to see a "Vision of the Trees" buff on Galadriel in game, giving her some amazing stats/effects or soemthing. Ecthelion also has an added "buff" of the fountain. And hell, probably some sort of "last stand" buff to boot. Do not ignore circumstances! The enemy who is cornered will tend to fight more fiercely when he knows he's already dead. It's a central tenet of Bushido---samurai were encouraged to think of themselves as already dead.
Fingon held his own against Gothmog until he was 2 manned. Though whether or not he could have continued to do so had he not been two-manned is in extreme doubt. Gothmog seems to have single-handedly slain ALL of Fingon's personal guard...Still, we know that Feanor and sons (with attendant armies) were able to hold their own against a whole bunch of them at once, and though Gothmog delivered a mortal wound to Feanor, that's not that high a price to pay when beset by a what was probably 5-10 of them at once...
Olorin in his natural form probably would have defeated the DB quite handily, but not through contest of arms. Olorin was always a wise person first. I see a potential confrontation between DB and Olorin going down more like Finrod vs Sauron. Yes, a singing-battle. Song (and the lore that is sung about) IS magic in Middle-Earth. Story-telling is likewise quite potent, but a lesser version of the same thing. Hence why Bilbo's book is such a central theme in LOTR and Hobbit. Remember, the author of the books seems a little biased towards both literature and history, specifically with regards to sagas, odes, etc.
Gandalf vs. Balrog - dont forget! Gandalf has Narya, the "flame of Anor" (not an insignificant thing), but the first thing he pulls out is the "Servant of the Secret Fire". This is probably his most potent defense/offense. This is essentially like saying "You have no chance against me". It is not that this gives him any super buff, but rather the wisdom that it implies--Gandalf KNOWS about the world, he knows where things fit, and most of all, he knows about the Song. He knows that, in the end, the song will resound the glory of Eru. And the Balrog knows it too. The combination of the ring and the fact that Gandalf has a doom to follow is potent--it's almost a way of prophecy to say that, in the end, I'll still be alive and you won't. And we know that the rings of power enact their own agency (although admittedly it is under Sauron's tenuous control). If there was a way to seemingly by chance, somehow emerge the victor you can bet your ### that Narya was looking for it.
Gandalf, in the end, did not beat DB by his own strength of arms. It seems that, in fighting the Balrog, Gandalf pursued it for quite some time. I think that a lot of the restrictions that were placed upon him were relaxed for that time period, because he was dealing with a spirit of the elder world. It would be pointless to set the Grey Wanderer against a friggin BALROG. You can make pretty fireworks and set pinecones on fire. The Balrog can create a massive sword and whips of fire if for some reason it decides that it can't just curbstomp you with its own hands and feet. And yes, I can only presume that Balrogs are fire-breathing. Hell, they're probably shadow-breathers too.
Anyway, as much as these combats seem to give us a trend to base speculations on, I don't know how much they can, since the variables involved in each confrontation are so diverse.
Would a Balrog be able to single-handedly take out Minas Tirith? Yes. Khazad-Dum? Yes. Lothlorien? Probably. Rivendell? Probably. Any other city whatsoever? Yes. Those might help you put the Balrog's power into context better than grudge-match fights.
minas tirith.....dont knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Andjay
khazad dum- yes, it happened
lothlorien and rivendell- mmmm debatable....galadriel and elrond both had rings of power- as gandalf had the 3rd....i do not think that a balrog would take them out
If I have a really awesome gun which can penetrate through almost anything, I still can't take an entire city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andjay
A Balrog can be as tough as he wants, but he'll give the Gondorim a good laugh as he bangs the gates of Minas Tirith with a sword.
If a Balrog was as strong as you say it was, Sauron would've been working at McDonalds. IMO:
DB did NOT take Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves fled from the Balrog, and since they began running out of Mithril (DB blocked them off), they abandoned Moria. Later, the Orcs took it.
This was different, as the Dwarves found DB inside their kingdom. Not even Sauron could open the Gates of Hollin or wtvr. Now, People in Minas Tirith couldn't have "dug too deep", or found an old Balrog in a storeroom. Even then, one Balrog cannot take an entire city.
We're talking about Balrogs, not the Great Dragons of the First Age *sniggers as he adds another factor to all the confusion*
When the Balrog of Moria drove out the Dwarves, the Elves of Lorien panicked and many fled. They were terrified of the thing, of the thought that it might come for them next. As it was, it was probably happy enough to take Moria for its domain, rather than risk tangling with Elves. It'd have sensed that some great power dwelt in those woods, even though it wouldn't have known whose it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by richsabre
Same goes for Rivendell. Noldor, again, and not just any Noldor at that but at least two powerful Elf-lords. Not the sort of place for even an evil Maia to mess with unless they'd got an army at their back.
Anywhere else, though, would have been a different matter. If the Balrog could see off a city full of Dwarves, that suggests it was near-unstoppable by any ordinary means. Anyone looking to fight such a supernatural monstrosity would have to be seriously supernatural themselves in order to stand any chance at all.
It wouldn't have to just walk up to the place. A Balrog was a creature of shadow as well as flame, and we know that it didn't have to show its fiery nature. It could also veil its power, as other Maiar did. So, guess what? Balrogs could use stealth as well as brute force, they wouldn't have to confront an entire city in order to either get into one or to then drive the people out. In the First Age, though, the cities Morgoth wanted to get at were Elvish (Men did not build cities, then) and that was a whole different ball-game. Only brute force or treachery would avail him there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
The Balrog did actually defeat the Dwarves, though, when it killed their king. They knew they couldn't kill the thing, so effectively it did take the place by the simple expedient of making it impossible for them to stay.Quote:
DB did NOT take Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves fled from the Balrog, and since they began running out of Mithril (DB blocked them off), they abandoned Moria. Later, the Orcs took it.
Wait, were the Grat Dragons more powerful than the Balrogs? Explain to me about them please, I'm very confused!Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
Not as such. But properly supported, dragons were the business when it came to laying waste to a city.Quote:
Originally Posted by amien
Well, Glaurung entered Nargothrond without much resistance, and Ancalagon even drove the army of the Valar back, until Earendil came....I guess at least Ancalagon would have been stronger than a balrog.
The only dragon I really read about in the books was Smaug. I never got very far into the Silmarillion. :( My reading skills just weren't up to par. lol..... :(
Smaug was only one of the average dragons that survived into the Third Age.....there were armies of dragons under Morgoth's rule.....Quote:
Originally Posted by amien
And actually Gandalf does mention Ancalagon the Black in the Lord of the Rings : Fellowship of the Ring -
As for dragons being stronger than Balrogs, thats again a topic thats vague with no proof.....Ancalagon and his dragon army fought off the armies of the Valar.....so its definitely a possibility that dragons are extremely powerful and have ancient magic in them.....just as balrogs....and to top it all, Dragons are cunning and wise....exceptionally so......I doubt if Balrogs possess that kind of cunning.....Quote:
"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever."
Morgoth was the only Vala who could not change shape. Sauron lost the ability after the fall of Numenor. It is implied that Balrogs cannot change shape either, as any Maia associated with Morgoth soon lost the ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
As for DB destroying Khazad-Dum, yes, you are right. But remember, the Dwarves were running ot of Mithril, thus extinguishing any hope in them to fight off the Balrog (The hope which remained with those who did not actually see the Balrog).
It was said in the Lost Tales that the Dragons were the only creatures who rivalled the Balrogs in terms of strength and ability to destroy. But they were not as strong as Balrogs. Only certain Dragons, like Ancalagon the Black and Glaurung, were stronger than an "average" Balrog. Not Gothmog, certainly.
What I said has nothing to do with changing shape; I agree that the Balrogs were 'stuck' in one form. The Balrog of Moria isn't fiery all the time, though: it bursts into flame when it wants to. The key thing is that it's shrouded by shadow. Great for lurking in the dark. Very handy in a naturally dark place like Moria, also handy at night in the outside world although not so much against Elves, who could see perfectly well by starlight alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
I was under the impression that the Dwarves abandoned the place after the Balrog killed Nain, who'd only ruled for a year after his father was killed. We're told that the Dwarves then either fled or were destroyed. That sounds like the Balrog actively driving them out, to me, not just a lack of mithril.Quote:
As for DB destroying Khazad-Dum, yes, you are right. But remember, the Dwarves were running ot of Mithril, thus extinguishing any hope in them to fight off the Balrog (The hope which remained with those who did not actually see the Balrog).
Given how enormous Ancalagon must have been, I would have said that in terms of sheer destructive force he was the most powerful weapon Morgoth ever had in his arsenal. However, dragons could be slain far more easily than Balrogs. Glaurung was, after all, mortally wounded by a single sword-thrust; in his younger days, he'd been badly mauled by heavily-armoured Dwarves. By contrast, Gandalf hewed away like a madman at the Balrog of Moria ('ever I hewed at him', yes?) with a legendary sword but it simply would not die, he evidently had to wear it down bit by bit: a Maiar could seemingly use its power to sustain its physical form, until it became exhausted.Quote:
It was said in the Lost Tales that the Dragons were the only creatures who rivalled the Balrogs in terms of strength and ability to destroy. But they were not as strong as Balrogs. Only certain Dragons, like Ancalagon the Black and Glaurung, were stronger than an "average" Balrog. Not Gothmog, certainly.
Exactly. Now, if a Balrog ever attacked Minas Tirith alone, neither fire nor shadow would have concealed him, under the Sun or the Moon. Even though he may be completely shrouded by shadow in the night, all Races can sense a Balrog (Or a Nazgul) approaching: the Men would have smelled the stench, felt the heat and a sudden fear seize them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Of course, they wouldn't have thought it was a Balrog. But they would have raised an alarm thinking the Nazgul are approaching. Then, thanks to the light caused by their torches and all, the Balrog would have been spotted.
It is well nigh impossible for a Balrog to take Minas Tirith on his own, and it is impossible for even a Balrog to break the impenetrable walls of the city. When it comes to breaking impenetrable walls, you need a Great Dragon or something terrific like Grond+the WK's magic.
You are right about the Dwarves leaving after Nain was killed. But think, why would Nain stay and try to fight the DB? Only this: The veins of Mithril found by the Dwarves were guarded by DB. Also, DB didn't come running out into the Upper Halls, or many of the major cities within Moria. Moria is huge. The Dwarves could have stayed there, though under deadly fear.Quote:
I was under the impression that the Dwarves abandoned the place after the Balrog killed Nain, who'd only ruled for a year after his father was killed. We're told that the Dwarves then either fled or were destroyed. That sounds like the Balrog actively driving them out, to me, not just a lack of mithril.
The reason why the Dwarves fled, or eventually had to flee, were: (in orded of priority)
1. DB
2. They lost almost all their mithril, upon which their economy depended
3. The evil of DB attracted many creatures of evil, such as Goblins.
Remember, we are not talking about strength, but power. Power is something much more vast. Why is China so powerful? Not only because of its military strength, but also its economic power, and the resultant diplomatic influence.Quote:
Given how enormous Ancalagon must have been, I would have said that in terms of sheer destructive force he was the most powerful weapon Morgoth ever had in his arsenal. However, dragons could be slain far more easily than Balrogs. Glaurung was, after all, mortally wounded by a single sword-thrust; in his younger days, he'd been badly mauled by heavily-armoured Dwarves. By contrast, Gandalf hewed away like a madman at the Balrog of Moria ('ever I hewed at him', yes?) with a legendary sword but it simply would not die, he evidently had to wear it down bit by bit: a Maiar could seemingly use its power to sustain its physical form, until it became exhausted.
Glaurung could control people's minds. Already the people who could face Glaurung had to be brave, legendary heroes, such as Turin. Even Turin's mind was dominated by Glaurung. A Balrog cannot do this.
Also remember, the Silmarillion is not the same as LOTR. In the fall of Gondolin, Tuor destroys five Balrogs. That'll make em seem pretty weak, eh? But Tolkien's ideas were premature then, and by LOTR, Balrogs were extremely powerful. Meanwhile, in the Silmarillion/ Lost Tales, they were not.
No: Maiar could hide their power (Gandalf did that all the time), and as I said it's plain from the book that Balrogs weren't fiery unless they wanted to be. When Gandalf glimpsed it momentarily for the first time, he saw something 'dark as a cloud' that blocked the light, with no hint of fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
As for the Nazgul, they had to be very close indeed before ordinary people would feel anything. When Merry went for a stroll in Bree, he felt the presence of one of the Nazgul but it was only yards away, in the shadows just outside the light of the lamp he was standing under, close enough that he got a dose of the Black Breath from it.
If it could get inside by stealth, then it'd be game over. There were plenty of places where it could have hidden itself during the day (there were many houses that were lying empty) and then gone prowling around at night. It'd be like a horror movie, people would keep disappearing until the whole place was terrorised. If a few Barrow-wights could drive everyone out of Cardolan through fear, then a Balrog could do the same to a city. There's no parallel to this in the First Age, remember: Men did not build cities, then.Quote:
It is well nigh impossible for a Balrog to take Minas Tirith on his own, and it is impossible for even a Balrog to break the impenetrable walls of the city.
Because Khazad-dûm was their home, founded by Durin himself, and their ancestors had lived there for millennia. Of course they'd keep trying to fight for the place, it wasn't just about mithril.Quote:
You are right about the Dwarves leaving after Nain was killed. But think, why would Nain stay and try to fight the DB?
Not straight away. That happened well after the Dwarves had gone.Quote:
The evil of DB attracted many creatures of evil, such as Goblins.
Exactly. Dragons were incredibly strong, and powerful in some ways (breathing fire, and messing with people's minds) but not in others. On the whole, a Balrog was more powerful.Quote:
Remember, we are not talking about strength, but power.
A Balrog couldn't do that particular trick, sure enough, but they weren't all about fiery swords and whips either. The Balrog of Moria nearly blew Gandalf away using magic, when they had their first encounter. 'The counterspell was terrible. It nearly broke me.'Quote:
Glaurung could control people's minds. Already the people who could face Glaurung had to be brave, legendary heroes, such as Turin. Even Turin's mind was dominated by Glaurung. A Balrog cannot do this.
Umm... no. TFoG wasn't published as part of The Silmarillion for just that sort of reason, that so much had changed since it had been written. BoLT exists in a different context; you can't just lump the two together like that. Tolkien never finished the much-needed rewrite of TFoG that would have brought it into harmony with the rest of his later writings.Quote:
Also remember, the Silmarillion is not the same as LOTR. In the fall of Gondolin, Tuor destroys five Balrogs. That'll make em seem pretty weak, eh? But Tolkien's ideas were premature then, and by LOTR, Balrogs were extremely powerful. Meanwhile, in the Silmarillion/ Lost Tales, they were not.
@Radhruin_EU
The Balrogs could hide their power, but I don't think they could prevent the "fear" sense. Only two creatures on the Books could stimulate this sense: the Balrogs and the Nazgul. If we presume there is a "radius" of fear around the Balrog, it's certainly larger than that of a Nazgul.
Now, you are saying that the Balrog could get inside by stealth: But how? The only way is that he'd sneek his way past the Gates, but even at night, the Guards will not miss a large shadow blotting the stuff behind it. Balrogs aren't ninjas, they can't turn invisible, and the Guards are not drunk on duty.
Like I said before, there is no mention of the Balrog ever entering the Upper Halls of Moria. For all we know, he stayed at the Lower Levels. Nain could have just sealed off the area by making a gate similar to the Hollin Gate. The skill of the Dwarves of Moria was at its peak when the Balrog was freed. If Sauron couldn't open a gate like the Hollin Gate, even with the power of the Ring, DB couldn't either. Nain could keep his precious little Kingdom.
But Nain went back and tried to fight the Balrog, for revenge, perhaps; but even if he didn't want to take revenge, the Dwarves had to get the Mithril back as they depended on it. I'm not saying that lack of Mithril was the main reason why the Dwarves left, but it was certainly one of the reasons.
Ancalagon was said to be "the greatest defence Morgoth had". This means that he was certainly more powerful than the handful of Balrogs left with Morgoth. I don't know why I'm getting the feeling that this means that Dragons could be more powerful than Balrogs.
I myself said that you cannot compare TFoG and LOTR. Perhaps you missed that point. If you think that a Balrog is powerful than any Dragon, state why you think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Yes Balrogs did have some sort of magic as well, but so did Dragons....their skin armor was supposed to hold ancient magic which made it almost close to invincible....except ofcourse everyone of them supposedly has a weak spot which obviously is exploited.....and they were physically stronger too.....I'd hazard a guess at a balrog and dragon being almost equally powerful....
Since the origins of dragons is not mentioned anywhere, its hard to judge because we know the origin of Balrogs and hence knowing that they are maia, we can be sure of the category in which they fall....
And actually, dragons were not the only creatures that Morgoth bred in his armies that we dont know the origin of.....there was Carcaroth, then the vampire whose name I forget.....Morgoth's forces were exceptionally varied and tremendously powerful.....
okay, okay, let's keep this civil, please?
The only point on which I will weigh in is on the point of the dwarves and Moria.
Tolkien himself states that he based the dwarves on the Jews. Now for the Jews, Israel was the holy land, their home, promised to them by God 4,000 years ago. 2,000 years ago, they lost it to the Romans and after about 70 AD, they were dispersed from the area and around the world. For any other nation, the ensuring 1900 years would have seen them to cease as a people and to be enveloped within other nations. That has happened time and time and time again throughout history. The Assyrians were masters at doing that to other nations they conquered.
However, despite being spread throughout the world into many nations and countries and continents, the Jews maintained their identity as a nation and their desire to return to Israel and Jerusalem--for 2,000 years! And when, at the end of WWII, 100's of thousands went back to Israel and Jerusalem to re-establish the political nation of Israel.
What I'm saying is that though the nation of Israel had ceased to exist politically in Palestine, they continued to exist ethnically for over 2,000 years. That is really remarkable!
Also, during the entire 2,000 year diaspora of the Jews, the entire time, they called Palestine their homeland and wanted to return. Now really, what is there in Palestine that would be considered that valuable? The place is pretty much sand and desert! It wasn't anything economical that drew the Jews--it was their heritage and the fact that it was their historical homeland. There could have been absolutely nothing but rocks, and they still would have fought to return and rebuild their nation there.
So, back to Middle Earth. The Dwarves, as plainly stated by Tolkien himself in his letters, were based on the Jews. That's why they had their own distinction as a people, their own secret language, etc. Tolkien himself said this. He also stated that Moria was to the Dwarves what Palestine was to the Jews. It wasn't just the economical value of the mithril in Moria that drew the dwarves; it was the fact that it was their homeland.
It wouldn't have mattered to the dwarves if there wasn't a single drop of Mithril left in Moria; they would have still fought and bled and died for it over and over and over again throughout history until they either got it back or ceased to exist as a people, because it was their heritage and their home. This was their primary focus for Moria. I'm not saying the mithril wasn't important, but it was just the icing on the cake to them; the heritage of Moria was the single most important reason why the dwarves would not give up on it.
Ah, I'm sorry, I just read my post again and noticed I sounded really angry. My bad, I became a bit too sarcastic after watching a couple of House episodes :D No offence, Radhruin, if there is any group of people I like, it's the lore junkies.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllySanders
Dont. Mention. Israel and Palestine. On. The. Forums.Quote:
Also, during the entire 2,000 year diaspora of the Jews, the entire time, they called Palestine their homeland and wanted to return. Now really, what is there in Palestine that would be considered that valuable? The place is pretty much sand and desert! It wasn't anything economical that drew the Jews--it was their heritage and the fact that it was their historical homeland. There could have been absolutely nothing but rocks, and they still would have fought to return and rebuild their nation there.
We all have different opinions on it. Trust me, this discussion won't end well if you mention sensitive stuff like that.
I'm pretty sure Gandalf told Pippin that the sole reason the Dwarves wanted to come back to Moria was Mithril.Quote:
So, back to Middle Earth. The Dwarves, as plainly stated by Tolkien himself in his letters, were based on the Jews. That's why they had their own distinction as a people, their own secret language, etc. Tolkien himself said this. He also stated that Moria was to the Dwarves what Palestine was to the Jews. It wasn't just the economical value of the mithril in Moria that drew the dwarves; it was the fact that it was their homeland.
It wouldn't have mattered to the dwarves if there wasn't a single drop of Mithril left in Moria; they would have still fought and bled and died for it over and over and over again throughout history until they either got it back or ceased to exist as a people, because it was their heritage and their home. This was their primary focus for Moria. I'm not saying the mithril wasn't important, but it was just the icing on the cake to them; the heritage of Moria was the single most important reason why the dwarves would not give up on it.
It went something like this, IIRC:
"Then why do the Dwarves want to come back?" asked Pippin
"For Mithril" answered Gandalf
... yeeeah sorry for repeating what I said, only in dialogue.:o
What did the Witch-King's magic do for Grog exactly?
Oh? Why? By the sound of it, the Balrog was outside the Chamber of Mazarbul for quite some time watching the Orcs' fruitless efforts against the Fellowship. When it went quiet, the Balrog walked into the room to see what was what. There'd been a deep voice to be heard outside the room, on or off, including after that big Orc-chief had been killed by Aragorn. The implication is that the owner of that mysterious deep voice was none other than the Balrog, and yet nobody in the room senses anything. Later, when it showed itself properly, wreathed in flame and with its power openly declared, they could sense its aura of power and terror from a distance that must have been tens of yards at least. So like other Maiar, it seems it can hide its power and with it, the fear. The fear comes from its power, that's the thing, it's all part and parcel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
3AM on a really dark night and you wouldn't even see a moving shadow.Quote:
Now, you are saying that the Balrog could get inside by stealth: But how? The only way is that he'd sneek his way past the Gates, but even at night, the Guards will not miss a large shadow blotting the stuff behind it. Balrogs aren't ninjas, they can't turn invisible, and the Guards are not drunk on duty.
On the inside, Moria was evidently too complex to defend effectively. It's a city, not a fortress: once the enemy get in, it's game over in short order. That's what happened to Balin's expedition, they failed to hold the eastern gate and the Bridge against the Orcs.Quote:
Like I said before, there is no mention of the Balrog ever entering the Upper Halls of Moria. For all we know, he stayed at the Lower Levels. Nain could have just sealed off the area by making a gate similar to the Hollin Gate. The skill of the Dwarves of Moria was at its peak when the Balrog was freed. If Sauron couldn't open a gate like the Hollin Gate, even with the power of the Ring, DB couldn't either. Nain could keep his precious little Kingdom.
Yes, one of the reasons but not the only one!Quote:
But Nain went back and tried to fight the Balrog, for revenge, perhaps; but even if he didn't want to take revenge, the Dwarves had to get the Mithril back as they depended on it. I'm not saying that lack of Mithril was the main reason why the Dwarves left, but it was certainly one of the reasons.
I don't know why you are, either. We're told that Balrogs were the deadliest bane of Elves, except for the Dark Lord himself (i.e. Morgoth originally, and then Sauron). Dragons had notorious weak spots, their underbelly was vulnerable; Glaurung was beaten up by Dwarves, and mortally wounded by just one man. Smaug was brought down by one man, too. You're confusing size with power. It's not like Gandalf's physical form was big, was it?Quote:
Ancalagon was said to be "the greatest defence Morgoth had". This means that he was certainly more powerful than the handful of Balrogs left with Morgoth. I don't know why I'm getting the feeling that this means that Dragons could be more powerful than Balrogs.
And yet you went and did it anyway :rolleyes:Quote:
I myself said that you cannot compare TFoG and LOTR. Perhaps you missed that point.
Because we're told so!Quote:
If you think that a Balrog is powerful than any Dragon, state why you think so.
OK, you're right on this one. Forgot that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Uh.. they have something called torches, y'know, fire... They don't exactly guard the City of the Kings in the blind darkQuote:
3AM on a really dark night and you wouldn't even see a moving shadow.
You're presuming that all the Dwarves had seenthe Balrog and known that they couldn't have fought him. Many Dwarves didn't know jack about DB. They still left, because of the reasons I presentedQuote:
On the inside, Moria was evidently too complex to defend effectively. It's a city, not a fortress: once the enemy get in, it's game over in short order. That's what happened to Balin's expedition, they failed to hold the eastern gate and the Bridge against the Orcs.
Certainly. In fact, it wasn't that huge a reason compared to DBQuote:
Yes, one of the reasons but not the only one!
Ancalagon pushed back the very Hosts of the Valar. Meanwhile, the Host of the Valar destroyed most of the Balrogs. *Sigh* let's just agree to disagree.Quote:
I don't know why you are, either. We're told that Balrogs were the deadliest bane of Elves, except for the Dark Lord himself (i.e. Morgoth originally, and then Sauron). Dragons had notorious weak spots, their underbelly was vulnerable; Glaurung was beaten up by Dwarves, and mortally wounded by just one man. Smaug was brought down by one man, too. You're confusing size with power. It's not like Gandalf's physical form was big, was it?
The comparison I made was something like this:Quote:
And yet you went and did it anyway :rolleyes:
"You'd think that outer space is black, and your hair are black. Thus your hair is outer space. Right? Wrong. It is not"
Over here, you cannot accuse me of comparing hair to outer space.
Where?Quote:
Because we're told so!
BTW sorry for sounding angry in my previous post. It was unintentional.
@amien
Grond did strike the Gates, but the Gates still held. The WK cried out a spell 3 times, and then finally, Grond shattered the impenetrable Gates.
that's okay--that's the problem with only being able to communicate in writing--we can only see the words and not the mannerisms behind the words that would better let us know each other's intents. Humans use body language so often!Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
I am well aware that Israel is a divisive topic. However, the quote was mean to be placed in a purely historical sense and was in no way inviting a commentary on the political and religious landscape of the Middle East. Also, like it or not, Israel and the Jews are a part of history; refusing to even mention them for fear of argument, especially when mentioning them only in passing and in a benign third-person manner, only serves to invite more propaganda and to silence history. How does it serve humanity if we choose to ignore and silence the parts of history that repulse us? Does that not instead invite us to repeat the mistakes of the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
In any case, I was simply stating what Tolkien himself said, both in his letters and in his interviews:
"The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. " - JRR Tolkien, Interview with J.R.R. Tolkien, First broadcast in January 1971 on the BBC Radio 4 programme 'Now Read On ...'. The interviewer was Dennis Gerrolt.
And,
"...I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews; at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the language of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...." - JRR Tolkien, letter 176
Therefore, Tolkien himself was making the comparison, as quoted from his own words. I was not making a commentary on the Jews themselves or of people's perceptions of them, and I do NOT invite commentary on the Middle East or the Jewish nation and explicitly request that no debate on the Middle East be started; please keep all debate central on LOTR only and the current topics at hand. I most certainly do not want to stir hard feelings on delicate matters, and was only referring to statements made by the professor himself!
And in any case, while he might have had that people in mind when he created the dwarves, he in no way meant for them to be an allegory for them. In his own quotes, he described them as being similar to Grimms Fairy Tales and closer to Germanic lore than the elves, but still different:
"...Mr. Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves....." letter 19
"The dwarves are not really Germanic 'dwarfs', and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature." - letter 156
..."The dwarves of my legends are far nearer to the dwarfs of Germanic [legends] than are the Elves, but still in many ways very different from them." - letter 297
The dwarves in any case, were very dedicated to their own history and their own homelands, and while the riches of the Lonely Mountain and of Moria were certainly of extreme importance to them based on their natures, that was not the only reason behind their desire to reclaim those lands. Both were considered to be their homelands and of extreme value to them for that reason as well. That was the only point I was attempting to make in my comments; nothing more.
And for Gandalf's comments to Pippin: do you happen to know where that can be found? I would like to read it! (of course, that will get me off on another passage, and before I know it, I'll have read the next 3 chapters in the book......not a bad way to spend a Saturday afternoon, though :) )
Well, two things about that: first off, the trouble with torches is that they don't give off that much light but it's more than enough to wreck your night vision, so you can't see a damn thing out there in the dark past the firelight. The other thing is that Balrogs were fire-spirits and possessed of considerable magic. We know at least one Maia who could make fires go out as well as starting them. See where I'm going with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
The long-enduring mystery over what DB was suggests that those who got to see it up close and personal didn't survive to tell the tale. Otherwise Gandalf would have figured it out. Hmm, shadow and flame, let me see... ;)Quote:
You're presuming that all the Dwarves had seenthe Balrog and known that they couldn't have fought him. Many Dwarves didn't know jack about DB. They still left, because of the reasons I presented
In point of fact, my complaint was that you tried to lump the published Silmarillion and BoLT together as if they agreed with one another. It's not called the Book of Lost Tales for nothing, there's all sorts of oddities in there. Wimpier Balrogs isn't the only detail that stands out in TFoG, for one thing.Quote:
The comparison I made was something like this:
"You'd think that outer space is black, and your hair are black. Thus your hair is outer space. Right? Wrong. It is not"
Over here, you cannot accuse me of comparing hair to outer space.
Why would Balrogs be considered to be the most deadly bane of Elves, the Dark Lord excepted, if dragons were worse?Quote:
Where?
1. The entire Gate is always illuminated. Even in real life fortresses, gates are always completely illuminated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
2. The Guards wouldn't just chill out if the torches go out. They would raise an alarm for Nazgul. Nazgul could also turn lights off using their magic. Thanks to the alarm, the shadowed Balrog will be caught.
That is, if for some reason the Guards left the Gate open the entire night. There are extremely ridiculous circumstances in which a Balrog would actually be able to take Minas Tirith.
IIRC there were a few Dwarves who knew... Dain Ironfoot comes to mind. But that was after the Fall of Moria.Quote:
The long-enduring mystery over what DB was suggests that those who got to see it up close and personal didn't survive to tell the tale. Otherwise Gandalf would have figured it out. Hmm, shadow and flame, let me see... ;)
Alright, alright, I'm sorry I called TFoG the Silmarillion by mistake.Quote:
In point of fact, my complaint was that you tried to lump the published Silmarillion and BoLT together as if they agreed with one another. It's not called the Book of Lost Tales for nothing, there's all sorts of oddities in there. Wimpier Balrogs isn't the only detail that stands out in TFoG, for one thing.
Not because the Balrogs killed truckloads of Elves... the 3 million Orcs killed more.Quote:
Why would Balrogs be considered to be the most deadly bane of Elves, the Dark Lord excepted, if dragons were worse?
Feanor and many other Elven Kings were killed by a Balrog. Also, Balrogs have a very high kill count per head, considering how there were only a few of them.
The thing is, there was only one Acalagon. Ancalagon as an individual was more powerful than most Balrogs. However, he didn't fight that long to earn as bad a reputation as the Balrogs.
I love how we're having 4 arguments at once :D
1. Can a Balrog take Minas Tirith by itself?
2. Was DB the sole reason why the Dwarves fled from Moria?
3. Is Areorlas an idiot for mistaking TFoG for the Silmarillion?
4. Are the Balrogs stronger than all Dragons?
This is confusing:p
How could anyone catch anything if it were not just dark, but supernaturally dark? Men couldn't cope with things like that, it'd be something they'd never even encountered before. The Nazgul didn't have that trick of moving in a shadow of their own making, they weren't powerful enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
If Gandalf could find his way into Dol Guldur by means of Maiaric tricksiness, there's no reason to think a Balrog couldn't do the same at a fortress Men had built. It'd be easier, if anything, because that place didn't have the sort of scary sleepless watchers that Sauron's fortresses did.
We don't know if he'd seen it or sensed it, or what it was he might seen. Just a lurking shadow, probably, but a shadow with a presence - I imagine the Balrog didn't want the Dwarves to forget who really owned the place. Dain certainly got the message :)Quote:
IIRC there were a few Dwarves who knew... Dain Ironfoot comes to mind. But that was after the Fall of Moria.
There's no argument to be had there. DB had the place to itself for a good long while.Quote:
2. Was DB the sole reason why the Dwarves fled from Moria?
One thing that I was never ale to fully understand was that the Elves were said to be the greatest crafters, yet the dwarves were able to create gates that Sauron couldn't pass. I know that the Dwarves were really Aeul's (Spelling.. again) children. He was the Valar of smithing/crafting, dwarves obviously held the monopoly over the skills in crafting.
Also, this is a stupid question, but what was the purpose of creating the elves? Were the elves created by Iluvatar, or another Valar?
As I was typing this I just thought of a third question :P
but werent the dwarves/Aeul punished for him awakening them prematurely? I know the Elves were the "First Born" though, what is the signifigance behing that?
The Elves and men were created by Iluvatar (Eru) as an independent act of his own, separate from the creations of the Valar. That is why they are called the children of Iluvatar and refer to him as "father". Whereas everything else in Middle Earth were created by the Valar and Maiar following the direction given to them upon their own creation and from the music taught to them by Eru himself. This is why the Valar longed for and looked forward to the coming of the elves and men. (though sometimes it seems that they got the elves and that was it :))Quote:
Originally Posted by amien
The dwarves, however, were created by Aule himself--not Eru--because he was impatient for the coming of the children. He longed for someone to teach his work and about Eru and thus created the dwarves. Eru rebuked him, yes, because he ran ahead of his creator's design, but did not punish him for it; instead, he accepted the creation and gave life to the dwarves, adopting them as his children. However, because it was Eru's design that the elves awaken first, he had Aule put the dwarves asleep until the time appointed for them. At least, that's how the legend goes according to the elves :D
This is from the Letters of Tolkien, letter 212, written by Tolkien himself (who I think is an excellent authority on the subject :p):
"Elves and Men were called the 'children of God' because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight, derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children. The uncorrupted Valar, therefore, yearned for the Children before they came and loved them afterwards, as creatures 'other' than themselves, independent of them and their artistry, 'children' as being weaker and more ignorant than the Valar, but of equal lineage (deriving being direct from the One); even though under their authority as rulers of Arda. The corrupted, as was Melkor/Morgoth and his followers (of whom Sauron was one of the chief) saw in them the ideal material for subjects and slaves, to whom they could become masters and 'gods', envying the Children, and secretly hating them, in proportion as they became rebels against the One (and Manwe his Lieutenant in Ea).
In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was part of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death - not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or 'magic' to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of 'mortals'. Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron - it leads the small to a Gollum and the great to a Ringwraith."
Also from the same letter:
"Aule, for instance, one of the Great, is a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity: for Aule had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Iluvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold', said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and they movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'
Then Aule in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: "I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar.
'Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'
This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves; but the Elves report that Iluvatar said thus also: 'Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forstalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.' And he commanded Aule to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Durin the eldest who had none. There they should sleep long, until Iluvatar bade them awake. Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Iluvatar. And of the fate that Iluvatar has set upon the children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it."
I think the fact that Aule's understanding of the children was imperfect explains why dwarvish women have beards and why it's so difficult to tell them apart :D
Though now I wonder: from these 13 dwarves came the 7 houses of the dwarves. But how did Durin have a line and a house if he had no mate? Because Aule spread them out throughout the world when he put them to sleep. Did they all gravitate to each other and intermarry amongst their children? How long would that take, I wonder?
The 7 Houses were separate, so I'm guessing there was no intermarrying. I guess the only logical conclusion is... uh oh, someone cheated...Quote:
Originally Posted by AllySanders
Though I agree, that would have been difficult if they had thousands of miles between them. Perhaps, since Durin lived so long, he married one of the children of the other 6 Dwarves?
@Radhruin_EU
Dol Guldur did not have impenetrable walls. Dol Guldur did not not have only one, nearly impenetrable Gate. Dol Guldur wasn't guarded by vigilant Men of Minas Anor (vigilant even though their power waned), but was guarded by mere Orcs. Dol Guldur did not have a Palantir. The only way in which Dol Guldur was better than Minas Tirith was that it had Sauron, in his weakest form till date.
Gandalf often visited Minas Tirith and would have eventually figured there was a Balrog there if it had entered, thanks to the method you're suggesting it would use, "slowly taking out civillians and spreading terror". How? He was a Maiar.
There were still a handful of Dunedain in Gondor.
Sorry, but I still think it's a ridiculous idea that a single Balrog can take the most powerful Fortress Good had in the TA.
And how's that relevant to an entry by stealth? However Gandalf managed to get into Dol Guldur, I rather doubt it involved knocking a hole in the walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
That's an awfully definite thing to say when we have no information to go on.Quote:
Dol Guldur did not not have only one, nearly impenetrable Gate.
As I already said and you should in any case know full well, Sauron had sleepless watchers at his fortresses, those creepy statue things. Very, very nasty. Truly ceaseless vigilance. Not to mention whatever other horrors he had there that made the place so terrible - I mean come on, it cast a dark shadow over all of Mirkwood, and the southern half in particular. Its owner wouldn't have been known as the Necromancer for nothing, the place must have been awash with evil spirits. Yet here we have Gandalf, managing to get in there and poke around, even if he did only barely avoid being caught.Quote:
Dol Guldur wasn't guarded by vigilant Men of Minas Anor (vigilant even though their power waned), but was guarded by mere Orcs. Dol Guldur did not have a Palantir. The only way in which Dol Guldur was better than Minas Tirith was that it had Sauron, in his weakest form till date.
It seems to me that if one Maiar can pull off stunts like that, denying all possibility of the bad guys doing that in reverse is a bit much. Look at what it took to keep Elvish cities safe and secure in the First Age, and that was with keen-eyed Elves to defend them rather than just Men.
Unless he was busy elsewhere, as he evidently was when the Balrog was making Moria a place of horror. An actively-involved Balrog, actually on Sauron's side and doing stuff for him and privy to his plans, would have been the worst thing that could ever have happened. Just as well the Balrog only seems to have wanted a quiet life and a nice dark place to call its own.Quote:
Gandalf often visited Minas Tirith and would have eventually figured there was a Balrog there if it had entered, thanks to the method you're suggesting it would use, "slowly taking out civillians and spreading terror". How? He was a Maiar.
The thing about Minas Tirith is that however grand it is, it's in the Third Age. The Balrog was a full-on supernatural terror from before the First Age, something Men were simply not equipped to deal with. Just as with Smaug, had it ever become actively involved on Sauron's side the mayhem it could have caused would have been unbelievable (and almost certainly fatal to the Free Peoples).
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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Yeah Sauron wouldve been very powerful had he had an active Balrog on his side....but Sauron is not a Valar like Morgoth.....Sauron, although very powerful himself, did not have an army even a fraction of what Morgoth's army was......Sauron did not have enough power himself to control Balrogs and Dragons....even the nazgul, his most terrifying servants, are under his command because of the nine rings of power with which he ensnared them....he most probably did not have the power to command such powerful and magical creatures as balrogs....
And the Balrog himself.....when he laid Moria to waste and made the dwarves flee, its safe to assume, he was only clearing out the disturbance in his place of rest and hiding.....it did not do so to purposely take over the dwarven kingdom.....just like all the other servants of Morgoth and Sauron, things like the Balrog apparently would need a driving force.....someone's will that drove it, to do dangerous deeds such as attacking Minas Tirith.....with no such force of will, a single Balrog couldnt think of attacking let alone taking out something as powerful as Minas Tirith....and even if it did, it wouldnt be successful......creatures like those needed a master to command their strength for purposes of destruction and domination....just like the entire army of Mordor fled when the Dark Tower fell....they were still enough to overpower the Captains of the West with ease....but they did not because powerful as they are, they cannot fight on their own at their full potential....they lacked the force of will.....if cornered, or if their home is threatened, maybe yes....like Durins Bane when someone disturbed him in Moria....but otherwise, it wouldnt be capable enough of such deeds....
And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....
So for the purpose of that debate, unless it had a master like Morgoth, a solo balrog could not take out Minas Tirith or Lothlorien or Rivendell.....imo....cause destruction, yes.....but conquer, I doubt it.... :)
Sauron had, in fact, been the Balrogs' superior back when he was Morgoth's lieutenant, but that was ancient history. He certainly couldn't control beings like that, but he could come to some private arrangement with them (much as he'd come to an accommodation with Shelob). As it was, DB obviously wasn't interested in risking itself for Sauron's glory, but that was seemingly fine with Sauron because that kept Moria out of the hands of the Dwarves and with it, the mithril (he coveted the stuff, he just couldn't get enough of it). Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff :)Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblade5445
A palantir would only look where you told it to, it wasn't like an early-warning system or anything. The one in Minas Tirith wasn't working properly at the time anyway due to Sauron messing with it via the one he had. Remember, he used it to show Denethor only what he wanted him to see, until the poor bloke decided all was lost and went mad.Quote:
And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....
Sure, a Balrog would be reluctant to tangle with the likes of Elrond or Galadriel but Men and Dwarves, no problem. That's why the plot keeps DB lurking in Moria instead of going walkabout :)
You know, I just realized that the last person to talk to the last dragon was a simple Hobbit from an unknown(uncouth according to Radagast) area in the back waters of Middle Earth called the Shire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
I can't imagine Smaug being Sauron's lackey after all that time being on his own. He just seemed too independent. Maybe back in the day but in Bilbo's time? I just can't see it. Especially with him kicking back on a pile of treasure.
I'm staying out of the main argument here :p but only want to say that perhaps if Sauron offered Smaug a cut of the riches of Minis Tirith, he might have been able to get Smaug involved on his side--after all, dragons can never seem to have enough riches! At any rate, Gandalf obviously feared Smaug's involvement.
Here's a question: Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled through Moria before the fellowship's trip through there. Aragorn encountered something terrible and wasn't keen on going back, but Gandalf had no problem with it (don't pay attention to the movie's portrayal; it didn't match the books).
Also, when we get to the battle at Balin's tomb and afterwards, when Gandalf sends them ahead and uses his spells and encountered DB for the first time, it seems he didn't know what it was.
It just appears to me--and I will admit that it's been a while since I read it so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it--but it appears that Gandalf didn't know that DB was in residence in Moria. Is that how it appears to others?
If that is so, that could be a big plus for the balrog in terms of stealth.
Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!
that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance :D If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymphonic
Yep exactly the point.....Smaug most probably wouldnt work for Sauron willingly.....even if Sauron had tempted it with more treasures because dragons are exceptionally cunning and wise creatures.....I dont think even Sauron would've been able to come to a deal with one of them and get them to work for him....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllySanders
Gandalf obviously knew that Durin's Bane lived in Moria....but he did not know the nature of the creature.....as in what exactly it is......cause no one had faced it since the dwarves had......the movies show Saruman knowing what it is exactly.....but thats not true......no one knew it was a balrog in there......all that everyone knew a dangerous creature lurked in Moria called by the name of Durin's Bane....
Also Gandalf did not expect to face whatever Durin's Bane was, when they passed.....he was hoping to cross Moria without even arousing the orcs......he merely wanted to cross without raising any sort of alarm.....and he was only expecting to face orcs if at all any alarm was raised accidentally.....
So even when he encounters the balrog for the first time in the chamber of mazarbul, he understands he was facing a very powerful magical being.....but only understands the full truth and nature of the creature when Legolas yells out that a Balrog has come.....Gandalf then realizes what it is and decides to face it..... :o
So its not as much the stealth of the balrog that is the plus but rather its anonymity.....no one has seen Durin's Bane since the dwarves fled and there is no record nor anything at all of the exact name of the terror in moria.....just whispers and dread of a dark dangerous creature.......
His dealings with Thorins and co. and the whole Smaug affair does sound like something Gandalf would do to manipulate people into taking out a powerful enemy.....but I think he did that merely because Smaug by himelf was becoming a threat to that part of the world.....too much so.....Quote:
Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!
that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance :D If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.
Also, if I read it correctly, Gandalf mightve been looking forward to getting a dwarven kingdom to be re-established in the Lonely Mountain.....Imho, he dint do it to take out Smaug fearing an alliance with Sauron, but more so to get a dwarven stronghold in that area which would later help in the final battles with Sauron.....if Smaug is defeated, Gandalf knew that the area of the Lonely Mountain, Dale and Northern Mirkwood would become very powerful utilizing the treasures of Smaug's hoard and would be strengthened with the alliance of three very strong races.....the Men of Dale, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Elves of Mirkwood......which does turn out to be true.....King Thranduil, King Dain and King Brand do make a good stronghold in those parts against the armies of Sauron in the war of the Ring.....so my guess would be that he did the whole Smaug manipulation more to achieve this alliance of free peoples more than out of fear of Smaug's alliance with Sauron..... :)
i think its at least accepted that gandalf wanted another frontier for the war of the ring, which as it happened was needed with both dale and erebor, and he also wanted smaug out of the way
i dont know if its been said yet, but gandalf and thorins meeting in bree is wrote about in the unfinished tales
*eek!*Quote:
Originally Posted by richsabre
Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place! :p
This comes from the appendices to Return of the King, Apenndix A, Part III, Durin's Folk, concerning Gandalf and his thoughts on Smaug:
"On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be acheived?
'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; ' and now we hear that Dain has fallen.......Yet things might ahve gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles ini Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what migh thave been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. but that has been averted--bcause I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree.'"
Surmising from Gandalf's own words, he clearly DID at least fear that Sauron would have been able to use Smaug as a weapon against Lorien and Rivendell in particular. So while certainly establishing the people of Dale and the dwarves of Eriabor in strength so to be able to appose the armies of the east was part of Gandalf's intent, so too was the singular destruction of the dragon to keep Sauron from using him.
It also seems that if he had not convinced the White Council to drive Sauron from Dol Goldur, that Sauron would have taken the war into the north with intentions of reclaiming Angmar and sweeping south from there, destroying Rivendell first and then everything else in his path.
ah, i dont know about this, and quite frankly i havnt got the time to re read all these post looking for it, as ive found this thread hard to keep up with anways, so for whatever its worthto prevant a pointless argument i retract that comment about this appartently unmentionable book (which i will refer to as UT) just to be safe :D anyways, even without where those sources come from, ive always believed that it was obvious what gandalf was doing when thorins co got togetherQuote:
Originally Posted by AllySanders
Well, I personally admit that I lost the argument. Radhruin has convinced that if a Balrog managed to enter Minas Tirith using stealth and secrecy, he would be able to take Minas Tirith, albeit slowly.
If a Balrog entered Minas Tirith, as a plus point to him, Sauron would take the opportunity and attack Minas Tirith, and I bet Minas Tirith won't be able to face the Nine and the Balrog together. But this would also cause panic in ME, causing Rivendell and Lorien to possibly send aid. Good ol' Gandalf would also come.
But the Balrog alone vs. Minas Tirith would be victory for the Balrog, as Radhruin pointed out, though it may be under extraordinary circumstances. Thanks for taking part in that rather stretched out argument :)
can you please direct me to this argument as i cannot find it and would like to know what the chocolate you are referring toQuote:
Originally Posted by AllySanders
thanks
This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblade5445
---
In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
---
So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!
Thank you so much for posting this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Norliriel
Someone mentioned the Gandalf snuck into DG? When was this? I know that Sauron used to live there as the "Necromancer" who corrupted Mirkwood. I thought the only great tower that Gandalf entered was Orthanc.
Gandalf went in...I want to say twice. It's been a while since I read the appendices to LOTR...which I believe is where I read that. Anyway, it's clear that he went in sometime prior to "The Hobbit". That is where he found Thrain, Thorin's father, who gave Gandalf the map and key for the Lonely Mountain that Gandalf gives to Thorin in early parts of that book, and that happened some years prior to that adventure as there is some kind of lag in time from the visit to Dol Guldur and the unexpected party that is made clear from the conversation in the Hobbit where the map first appears.
Gandalf had nothing to fear from the Witch-King when it comes to 1v1 combat. Neither did the Witch-King fear Gandalf, though I'm not saying he was stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norliriel
But when it comes to leading an army, I think both of them have quite a lot to fear from each other.
Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?
I don't think so other than that Elrond is a master of lore, very wise. In Tolkien's world there are many times when characters have a moment when they suddenly see something yet to come. You could call it the non-overt magic of the world or maybe even visions planted by Iluvatar, the hand of fate perhaps, part of the Great Music.Quote:
Originally Posted by amien
This is just conjecture on my part, and I don't know if there's any lore to back this up, but I always thought Elrond's gift of foresight was due on some level to his possession of the ring Vilya.Quote:
Originally Posted by amien
Of course, as tuor said he was master of lore and knowledge can often help lead to anticipating what might happen. He had been observing the nature of people and events for a long time too.
I cannot really remember much LotRO-style 'magic' foretellings from Elrond from the books, where he is simply an over 6,000-year-old descendant of the High Elves. His father is essentially a god. (Well, Elf-hero guarding the morning star. Unless you accept Tuor to have part of Ulmo's power, then the actual god-blood comes from the mother's side.) Also, his early childhood was in the presence of a Silmaril, which means that some part of reason on what is natural to him can be abandoned right away. And later on, he was fostered by Maglor, of all the people. And then got a Ring of Power.
My post from some pages back, which illustrates the power of Elrond. By "he" I refer to Elrond, of course.Quote:
1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron
#3 isn't entirely correct, though: Elrond's host escorted most of the survivors of Eregion into Rivendell, where they were besieged by a part of forces loyal to Sauron until Númenor took part in the war. Now, lots of the more in detail descriptions of the War of Elves and Sauron in the Second Age is apocryphal, but it is my understanding that some of the Elves of Eregion did flee the realm with the Galadhrim force Galadriel had sent to help Eregion (marching thru Moria), and ended up in Lórien. And then there is Lindon, which very likely had the highest number of Noldor alive, even if Eregion might have the highest ratio of Noldor to others. In any case, the majority of the inhabitants of any realms would be non-Noldor - I seem to remember a quote that in the First Age, about one fourth of the Elves in Beleriand were Noldor and the rest Sindar, but I'd need to find a source for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt123
We do actually have a single direct mention of High Elven havens in Middle-earth at late Third Age:
"It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings. But where that may be, though the Lord and Lady may know, I do not."
- Haldir of Lórien
Now, Haldir isn't a reliable source (even by his own admission), but if he's right, then "beyond the land of the Halflings" essentially means that those havens are in Ered Luin or Lindon (possibly in the Emyn Beraid). It is, however, mentioned in the Appendices that Elrohir and Elrond did stay in Middle-earth with their High Elven relatives, so at least a few did stay in Rivendell, and elsewhere it is mentioned (in plural) that there were High Elves in Rivendell. So while the word only is not correct to describe Rivendell as a Noldorin refuge, perhaps the word chief might be more suitable. (Though causality here is broken - most likely it would be an important refuge because of Elrond.)
@Mithfindel
You are absolutely correct there. However, in my post, I didn't count the Grey Havens as a Haven for High Elves because the Elves went there to prepare for their journey West. So I just counted it as a port.
Rivendell would be the only Haven for High Elves where they go to "live", not just prepare for sailing out of Middle-Earth.
Rivendell seems to be more important to High Elves than anywhere else at that time: besides Elrond, Glorfindel is there, as well as 'Elvish smiths' with the skill to reforge the Sword of Kings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithfindel
Then there's what Gildor Inglorion has to say:
'We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'
Rather than Lindon, which is interesting.
Regarding Elrond's foresight: Lúthien, her mother Melian, and Idril - all ancestresses of Elrond - were all gifted in that way, so Elrond's foresight was probably at least partly inherited.
As for Arwen possessing it as well - probably. She did foresee that Aragorn would have use for the banner she embroidered for him, for one.
Not as interesting when you consider the context. Gildor was himself a resident of Imladris, and therefore was speaking for himself and those close to him. We can surmise that he visited Bombadil, but we don't know whether and how often he visited Lindon. [Edit: Considering how closed off Lothlórien was to the rest of Middle-earth, it his highly unlikely that Gildor knew the status of the Galadhrim and the Noldor of that realm.] You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Tolkien was using Gildor and his band as a device to convey to the reader that the time of the Elves was passing. By having Gildor refer to the Exiles, Tolkien was tieing into the history of Middle-earth that would eventually be published posthumously. (Tolkien had hoped to have The Silmarillion published at the same time as The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, there wasn't much interest in the former at the time.) Tolkien often used this device to make his fiction appear to be a real history. You may recall the pretense of the material that appeared in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings was a translation from 'The Red Book of Westmarch', a history of events compiled by Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise.
It's interesting because he's not just anybody, he's a somebody: Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. So there were nobles who preferred to live in Rivendell rather than Lindon. Why, if Lindon's supposed to be so wonderful? It strikes me that Rivendell was simply the most stimulating place to be. Lindon was probably a little melancholy, not only because of its faded grandeur but because that view out to sea could only remind everyone of the West and all those who had gone there.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock
It allows the possibility, but it doesn't imply that as such. As I read it, it simply suggests that 'some' still lived peacefully in Rivendell whereas 'most' had already gone into the West, which doesn't have to leave any remainder at all apart from the obvious exception of Gildor and his companions (those who've felt the urge to leave, who can no longer be at peace in Middle-earth).Quote:
You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.
That's very likely true. Bilbo said that the Last Homely House in ImladrisQuote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Of course the heart of a Hobbit is not the heart of an Elf. Still, I think everyone agreed that Imladris was a very special place.Quote:
...was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.
It is true that Lindon was not preserved by a Ring of Power as were Imladris and Lothlórien, yet I imagine that it had its places that were still fair.
Oh my, we might fill a few pages about discussing Inglor and the House of Finrod. When the LotR was written, Inglor was the same Elf as Felagund, and Finrod was Finarfin - when LotR was revised, most names were changed to match the other mythos, but these two were kept the same. (Admitted, changing them would've added a whole new amount of questions, as Finrod (Findoráto Ingoldo, not Arafinwë) was childless in Middle-earth (his spouse-to-be decided to stay in the West and wait for him). Though yes, most known/named (Half-)Elves with a connection to Noldor do live in Rivendell.
Edit: In addition to the Ring of Power, several places are mentioned to have some kind of power depending on the people who live there: In this case, an Elven realm would have a distinctly 'Elvish' air. Of course, in the late Third Age, this might be likened to the end of a summer or a long, warm autumn. (Can't find the quote, but one of the characters compared Rivendell into an eternal autumn if Lórien is an eternal spring.)
And one more note on Lindon - as Gildor himself says, many of his folk had went across the sea, which implies that Lindon wasn't as densely populated at the end of the Third Age as it used to be at the end of the Second one. Yet, we do have evidence that there were some settlements there, as Cirdan continued to rule over Mithlond (the Grey Havens). Now, there isn't anything mentioned about Lindon in particular, so it can be only speculated how many Elves were left there - probably not much, and what was left was probably mostly the Sindarin folk, ruled by Cirdan. Given that Gildor is a Noldo, it would be more logical that he would prefer to spend more time among his closer Elven kin, i.e. the Noldor, rather than among the Sindar, especially after there are very few Noldor left in the Middle-Earth.
Regarding Gildor's knowledge of Lothlorien, there can be some arguments why, even if he knew about it, he may not really care travel there. There were some good notes on Celeborn's origin earlier in this thread, but regardless if he is from the Sindar (those ruled by Thingol but never went to Aman) or the Teleri, he is certainly not a Noldo. In turn, this would imply that his folk are also most probably Sindar and some other Dark Elves (like Laiquendi, the Green Elves of Ossiriand, or the Nandor, also located in Northern Mirkwood under Thranduil's rule). Thus, Gildor would not have much reason to go to Lorien, given that most of his kinsmen and friends are in Imladris.
By the way, I will digress a little bit. As it is generally believed that Eregion's exiles were moved to Rivendell, it will be interesting to muse a little bit what exactly they were. Since Celembrimbor was of high prominence, being a grandson of Feanor himself, it could be easily surmised that many of his Noldor followers were actually of Feanor's sons' folk. This would also explain why Celembrimbor didn't heed much to the advice of Lindon at the time when he was forging the Great Rings - after all, these were the people ruled by the other branch of the Noldor royal family, the second and third son of Finwe (Feanor being the first). So, there could have been some residual animosity left, as even after there was no reason to fight among each other (the Silmarils were long gone), I'd guess that there was not much love between the people ruled by Feanor's sons and those who followed Fingolfin and Finrod.
All this more or less explains why the major settlements of the Elves wouldn't have much to deal with each other, unless to fight against a common enemy (Sauron) ...
The only problem that I can see from that theory is the fact that Celebrimbor lived among Finrod's people, and actually broke relations with his father to stay in Nargothrond when Curufin and Celegorm were expelled from there by Finrod's nephew after their plots had been revealed. Celebrimbor chose to remain in Nargothrond, and to be allowed to do so, he must have had to been willing to accept Finrod's nephew as his lord, and as such could not have had animosities held toward the heirs of Fingolfin and Finarfin. So I don't think there would have been animosity held between Celebrimbor and those peoples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adanamir
Of course, that doesn't speak, necessarily, for those of Feanor's house, and it would make sense to say that after the War of Wrath, seeing as all the sons of Feanor were now gone, that the few who remained of those folk would naturally accept Celebrimbor as lord, being that he was the only heir of Feanor left on the other shores (as Maglor had disappeared) that Tolkien tells us about (as he mentioned in passing that other sons of Feanor were probably also married--Maglor being one of them, so it's possible they had un-named children along side those un-named wives, whether they remained in Valinor or followed their fathers).
I think there could have been a good deal of animosity still held between the survivors of the war of the folk of Feanor and the folk of Gil-galad and Cirdan. The sacking of the havens at Sirion was still very fresh in everyone's minds, Silmarils or no, and that would have been difficult to just forgive and forget. It might have been considered a good idea to just separate. On the other hand, Eregion wasn't settled until around SA 700; that's a long time to live amongst the other peoples in Lindon--plenty of time to finally put the old animosities to rest. And they had all fought together in the War of Wrath, so that too might have gone a long way to heal or at least begin healing disputes. Of course, it could be that they were naturally separated anyway, as Gil-galad ruled from Forlindon and Cirdan from Harlindon--perhaps in the Second Age they were already seperated. It will still seem, though, that all the remaining Noldor, no matter to which son of Finwe they belong, held Gil-galad as their king, including Celebrimbor and his people.
So I suppose the question that arises is what was the motivating factor for the settlement of Eregion in the first place? Being that it was so close to Moria and a ready supply of Mithril, and that the remaining Noldor were naturally craftsmen and smiths, it could simply be they settled there because they wanted to be nearer to their supply, and had nothing to do with animosities at all.
Also, there are several different versions of the founding of Eregion floating around, thanks to Tolkien. One story states that Celebrimbor settled it and that Galadriel and Celeborn chose to live there with him, another says they three co-ruled the place until Sauron came along and the forging of the power rings began, while another says that Galadriel and Celeborn settled it and that Celebrimbor went with them and usurped power after the forging of the power rings began.
In any case, Galadriel and Celeborn and their folk lived in Eregion, and as Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod and certainly had no love at all for Feanor, I would think that there couldn't have still been animosities floating amongst her folk and the remains of Feanor's people, else they would not have chosen to live together in Eregion.
But that's just my two sense :p Is there any more information out there on the founding of Eregion and the reasons for it?
You do give some very valid points, but I still believe there is room to allow for my theory. Just to point out, that the Exiles didn't actually fight in the War of Wrath, at least according to the Silmarillion. It was explicitly pointed out that only hosts from Valinor and Men fought in the last battle against Morgoth, while the exiled elves were sidelined.
Anyways, my point is that at the beginning, Celembrimbor wasn't really an elf of very high status. Indeed, he was the son of Curufin and grandson of Feanor, but his prominence as a crafter came mostly after he settled in Eregion (though he was probably respected among Elves much before then). And as it often happens, with great skill often comes hubris. Thus, even if Celembrimbor was far more willing to heed to advice from the House of Finarfin at the beginning, it is not impossible that he believed he was powerful enough to do what he thinks is right a thousand years later. By the way, "animosity" is probably a stronger word than I intended, it's much more as if Celembrimbor wasn't willing to follow blindly unreasonable (in his view) concerns of some distant Elf lords.
Regarding Galadriel and her stay in Eregion - yes, there are different versions, thanks to the Professor, but one of them is also that Galadriel and Celembrimbor (who ruled over the land) were close friends, not impossible as Galadriel never had a position of power in the First Age. Anyways, the thing is that this remains only a theory, and any explanation is possible. After all, it remains unclear how many of Feanor's people remained in Middle-Earth, especially when they were given forgiveness to return to Valinor at the end of the First Age. The simplest explanation is indeed that Celembrimbor's desire for knowledge made him ignore the warnings from Lindon, and his heritage had nothing to do with it.
That's the one I go with. While he had his suspicions, Gil-galad didn't go so far as to command that the Noldor should shun Annatar and so it wasn't as if Celebrimbor and the other Gwaith-i-Mirdain were defying their High King's will. Celebrimbor simply didn't heed the warnings because he'd been seduced by all the wondrous possibilities that Ring-lore offered. The physical distance between Eregion and Lindon would have helped, there, and the strong creative spirit in Eregion made it fertile ground for anything so new and interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adanamir
Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were of comparable strength. Gandalf did win, most definitely, but he was almost totally spent and lay near death for a while (and apparently had a near-death experience), but he did survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothic
Balrogs were of varying strength. The Great Balrog of Moria was perhaps the oldest and most powerful.
No, Tolkien confirmed that Gandalf did actually 'die', and was then sent back.Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus
RE: Noldor and Lindon vs. Imladris
I only wanted to add that I have the impression that the western sea itself was a powerful pull on the Elves, and especially the Noldor. And as such, any Noldor that wanted to stay behind and live in/defend/enjoy Middle Earth might have found it impossible to do so in close proximity to the sea.
I can truly imagine Cirdan only remains out of the powerful sense of duty (Ensuring the safety of the port / 'last one out' sort of thing)
So then if you (a Noldor Elf) literally cannot bear to live near the sea (Lindon) without crossing over into the Undying Lands, your optimal residence would be Imladris (by default, although 'default' is a really unfair characterization :) )
No clear answer, but lends support as to why there MIGHT be more Noldo in Imladris vs. Lindon (though all this is conjecture IMO)
@Buddahspalm
That's what I'd suspect as well. Legolas just looked at the Sea and wanted to leave Middle-Earth.
However, Legolas was from the Sindar, or at least had strong Sindarin ancestry (given that there is no info on his mother), so the call to the West should apply to Cirdan's folk as well. I'd rather say that the difference was in the fact that Cirdan's people were predominantly born and raised at the seaside, so it wasn't such a big shock to them, compared to elves that had never seen the sea before.
I have a slightly different explanation for the disparity in population between Lindon and Imladris. After all, Imladris had always had a specific purpose, being settled as a safe heaven during the fight against Sauron towards the end of the Second Age. Thus, it was quite natural that it gathered quite a few prominent elves, and mostly Noldor, who had always had a more active role in fighting Morgoth and later Sauron. In the Third Age, this goal was preserved, given that Elrond very well knew that Sauron was not destroyed permanently, as long as the One Ring remained intact. Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.
This sense of purpose most probably helped to keep more Noldor there than in Lindon, where High King Gil-Galad was dead, along with many others who fell at Dagorlad and later during the siege of Barad-Dur. Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.
Nobody actually knew that for a fact, although it became an obvious inference once Sauron was known to have returned in the Third Age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adanamir
Only in passing; the Northern Dunedain didn't actually live there, they had a 'fastness' of their own somewhere else. Aragorn and his mother had been very much an exception.Quote:
Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.
Most of Lindon had apparently been abandoned, and allowed to go back to nature - the remaining population had become concentrated along the coast near the Havens. It'd make for some very scenic ruins, which for once wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) be full of nasties :)Quote:
Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.
Much of Lindon had never left its natural state. In typical real-life places you have a concentration of the population in towns and cities--this was especially true before mass transportation--with wilderness in the surrounding areas. I imagine that Elven settlements were not too different than human settlements in this regard. I can't ever recall reading anything about Elven farms or homesteads, and don't know whether they existed or not. The Sindar were great sailors, so we can guess that they may have derived at least some of their food from the sea through fishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Since Lindon did not play an important role in the events of TA 3018-3019, other than being a point of embarkment for the Undying Lands at the end of LOTR, Tolkien didn't leave us with much information about for this time period. Most of we may say about it is speculation, and, in my opinion, should be stated as such rather than stated dogmatically.
In LOTR Tolkien was very clear that the time of the Elves was soon coming to the end. We also know that most of the Elves who had not been slain during the many wars throughout the millenia had already left Middle-earth, and others, like Gildor and his company, were merely biding their time before they, too, would leave. However, we also know that some Elves were determined to stay in Middle-earth until they faded.
Those who are interested in this topic may wish to read 'Why did the Elves Leave Middle-earth' by noted Tolkien scholar, Michael Martinez.
Hang on, a couple of things there. First off, in any pre-industrial society the overwhelming majority of people live on the land, not in towns and cities. Secondly, there's a big difference between areas that have hardly anyone living there and true wilderness; even a few people can start to make a difference. When there were a lot of Elves there Lindon wouldn't have been in its natural state at all, no country that's got people living there ever is if it's anything more than just a handful and that's allowing for the idea of Elves being better at living in harmony with nature; they'd still have to extract resources from the land, grow crops, keep animals (if they wanted wool to weave, for instance), manage the woodlands (they'd need a steady supply of both wood and charcoal, for example), quarry for stone and metal ores, dig for clay so they could make pottery, all that long list of things you need to do in order to be both well fed and have a sophisticated material culture. My point was that most of the place had chance to go back to something like a natural state since it had been largely abandoned for a few thousand years.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock