Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Captain Developer Diary

To me, the buffing “role” of the Captain is inherently part of the class and shouldn’t be restricted to any one trait line. Therefore, a major part of these changes is making the Leader of Men trait line focus more on tanking. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Tim 'Raskolnikov' Lang and post your comments here!

Overall, I'm very pleased with these changes.... Only thing I can think of is something I'll have to put some minimal focus on over the coming months: the will/might stat changes.

no mention of the increased cooldown on inspire and strength of will? I seem to recall that being mentioned in previous cappie related dev posts. Currently the cooldowns are less than their durations which is helpful, especially if inspire misses (no effect is applied on a miss). Having the CD on strength of will as it is now is convenient since you dont have to re-apply the buff immediately.

hopefully the lack of a mention means the cooldowns are not being changed.

"The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)." - please tell me this is JUST for LoM ... ? If it's a class change ... argh. I've spent considerable effort capping out my Fate\Will because I can O/T well enough with ~450 Might, but I need the Fate\Will because I'm spamming heals\buffs as they come up.

#donotlike

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Originally Posted by be0wulfe

Captain tanking/off-tanking ... prepare to get flamed\trolled\laughed at :(

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And we can block without a shield? As the Champ dev said, I guess we can block with our face!

Turbine is doing a really good job here. They certainly now how to improve the game for the players. I'm looking forward to this. Keep the good work on turbine!

YAY blocking with all 2handers and YAY mights gives us tactical ofence and outgoing healing
but i think our DPS will be poor again

*clap clap* well done, solid update for captains:

• major tanking update(I really like how it was done) will easily suit captain for 3 and 6 mans(with proper gear of course). Handy when no tank is around + You still get all buffs and some heals.
• healing which was already fine was tweaked a bit and rezzing became major role.
• personal dps should be more than fine with those tweaks and skill updates. This will be huge for leveling, soloing and some 3-man action.

Kudos to Raskolnikov and whatever other devs that was brainstorming about this class for NOT tying buffing to some line and freeing Leader of Men line. While one trait line for main role works fairly well for other classes, it was really bad for captains, limiting them to it for any group content. After all everyone loves us for the buffs in 1st place, but it's not the most interesting thing to do as it's quite static unlike healing. So buffing + some major role to do was a perfect direction to head for. Thank You!

While the bulk of the changes were already known, it's nice to see captains become might centric.

Once again, thank you Rask, you rock =)

Edit: Is Shield of the Dunedain still a fast skill, or did it go back to normal?

Only thing im worried about is power problems again. In SoA captains were the biggest power suckers around but then Moria came and started adding Will/Fate to armor which gave us a big enough power pool along with decent ICPR that power still had to be managed but wouldn't burn out 30 seconds into a fight. With the stat changes I can see them pushing Might on our gear which means our power pools will drop again and put us at SoA levels.

You all missed something very important here: Blade-brother at level 74. That is Horrible!!! This means that a +25% damage To Arms is not only unavailable to us at the start of RoI, but it means that the Captains leveling up will not get this bonus either. If anything, this change is a huge reduction to Captain DPS. Why? We should be able to choose between the -brother's as soon as we get Shield-Brother. What use is reducing threat on an ally for levels 22 to 74? Not a lot.

I understand you need to provide new filler skills between now and 75, but I would much rather you release Improved Blade and Song-Brother rather than restrict them until the 70's. Have the improved version provide the critical hit bonus passive and the threat from healing reduction.

You need to realize that you have made leveling a Captain even harder with this change. Not all of the goodies should be available only at End-game.

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Originally Posted by be0wulfe

"The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)." - please tell me this is JUST for LoM ... ? If it's a class change ... argh. I've spent considerable effort capping out my Fate\Will because I can O/T well enough with ~450 Might, but I need the Fate\Will because I'm spamming heals\buffs as they come up.

#donotlike

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Like you're going to have the same gear, LIs, or... well, just about anything after the next 10 levels? The only permanent thing you could have are the stat tomes, and that's only +50. Fate will still matter, especially with crits being much, much bigger for heals. You'll instead stack Fate, Might, and raw Power, which is more efficient than stacking Will anyway.

Overall looks very nice to me. I think the block with any 2-H weapon will allow some diversity of weapons choices.

I too am a bit concerned about the power issue. Will has now become a trash stat for Capts far as I can see, so power pools will dwindle somewhat. And we'll be able to spam big attacks ever faster. Song Brother and Blade Brother Power over Time from inspire will help, as will Now for Wrath, but still may find ourselves sucking wind pretty quickly. Time will tell there, but the power cost legacies may become even more important than they are now...

I agree with the upthread comment that Blade Brother would very nice at a lower level.

I think the 10% CJ chance on Kick remains a trash bonus. To get the most out if it you'd have to spam Kick ever 30 seconds. Most of us reserve Kick for an interruptable event and don't want to do that. I'd MUCH rather see LOM give a -15s Kick cooldown. Interrupting is often expected of tanks anyway, and this would help with that aspect.

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Originally Posted by RtrnofdMax

You all missed something very important here: Blade-brother at level 74. That is Horrible!!! This means that a +25% damage To Arms is not only unavailable to us at the start of RoI, but it means that the Captains leveling up will not get this bonus either. If anything, this change is a huge reduction to Captain DPS. Why? We should be able to choose between the -brother's as soon as we get Shield-Brother. What use is reducing threat on an ally for levels 22 to 74? Not a lot.

I understand you need to provide new filler skills between now and 75, but I would much rather you release Improved Blade and Song-Brother rather than restrict them until the 70's. Have the improved version provide the critical hit bonus passive and the threat from healing reduction.

You need to realize that you have made leveling a Captain even harder with this change. Not all of the goodies should be available only at End-game.

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Are you kidding? The change to the red capstone alone will boost Cap DPS by a hefty amount, the extra DOT at level 68 increases it further.

I honestly have no idea how you can think Captain DPS will be reduced because Blade brother is available near the level cap. +25% damage for a few seconds is not much really in the scheme of things, with the other boosts I probably won't notice.

I'm rambling now, but my main point is I can't fathom how this a 'huge' DPS reduction.

OT: Everything looks fandabydozy thankee. Soloing should be a lot quicker and more fun now. Much props devs.

Hey i like most of the updates buuuut....

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous. Don't wanna be rude but this sounds really stupid to me. There is a reason why you can't parry ranged physical attacks, no need to explain k? There's also a reason why avoiding attacks with your weapon is called parry. To block something, you want to use a shield instead. So your giving captains a third avoidance although it makes completly no sense. Why not boost parry instead?

Don't like this at all.

But good thing is, that i'll lmao everytime my captain is blocking some arrows with his greatsword, because i'll think of someone who decided that this makes perfect sense.

Look at it this way. What can't you do now at level 65 that you could before? It's nice for us level 65 folks to think the world is just 10 levels away, but there is a lot before that. To Arms legacies are available at level 45. This means that you will be going through Urugarth, Carn Dum, Helegrod, The Rift, All Moria Instances, BG, and OD all without being able to give To Arms to your DPS. You may think of your DPS as what number pops up when your sword hits something, but your DPS is actually your contribution to the group DPS.

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Stat Changes:
The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will). Further information can be found in the New Stat Updates Dev Diary.

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It ain't pretty, but this seems like the only way to balance the stat changes for captains.

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We’ve also made quite a few quality of life improvements:

“Time of Need” has had its cooldown reduced from 20m to 5m.
“Shield of the Dunedain” has had its cooldown reduced from 10m to 5m.
“In Defence of Middle-earth”:
Is now a toggle (with no cost).
Continues advancing in magnitude after level 50.
“War-cry” has had its magnitude changed from -10% Attack Duration to -15% Attack Duration.
Note: This is because the trait “Captain of War” has been repurposed, see below.
The buff from “Herald of War” continues advancing in magnitude after level 50.
Heals, Heal-over-Time effects, and Damage-over-Time effects have had their Critical Multiplier changed from 1 to 1.5


A large change has been made to the Legendary Trait “Defy Corruption”:

This Legendary Trait is now “Fellowship-brother”: Your Brother skills (“Inspire”, “Strength of Will”, and “To Arms”) now affect your entire fellowship with lesser versions of those effects.

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This all gets a thumbs up.

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Leader of Men:
“Improved Kick” has been moved from the 3-set bonus to the 2-set bonus.
There is an additional 3-set bonus which reduces the Cooldown of “Threatening Shout” by 10s.
The trait “Adherent of Elendil” has been moved to the “Lead the Charge” trait line, replacing “Focused Strikes”.
NEW trait “Echoing Shout” allows the skill “Threatening Shout” to affect up to 3 targets.
The trait “Captain of War” has been changed to “Alert Guard” which gives “Defensive Strike” an increase to Parry Chance.
The trait “Composure” has been changed in two ways:
Reduces the Morale Cost of Time of Need by 50%.
No longer reset the cooldown for “Cry of Vengeance”.
The trait “Blood of Numenor” has been moved to the Hands of Healing trait line (replacing the trait “Subtle Command”).
NEW trait “Improved Routing Cry” adds a Force Taunt to the skill.
The Legendary Capstone Trait “Leader of Men” now has the following abilities:
When using “Shield-brother”, the Captain also receives the full benefits of the Shield-brother skills (“Inspire”, “Strength of Will”, “To Arms”).
Routing Cry no longer requires a Defeat Event.
The Captain is able to Block when wielding a 2-handed weapon.

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Although I haven't really been clamoring for a boost to tanking skills, this seems like it should help.

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Hands of Healing:
The trait “Relentless Optimism” has had its magnitude increased from +10% Critical Heal Magnitude to +50% Critical Heal Magnitude.
The trait “Subtle Command” has been replaced by “Blood of Numenor”.
The trait “Blood of Numenor” has received several improvements:
Decreases the induction time of “Escape from Darkness” by 2 seconds.
“Escape from Darkness” has its cooldown reduces by 10 minutes.
The target of “Cry of Vengeance” revives with +50% Morale and Power.
The trait “Strength from Within” no longer prevents the summoning of Heralds and Archers.
The Legendary Capstone Trait “Hands of Healing” has an additional ability:
When using Song-brother, the Captain also receives the full benefits of the Song-brother skills (“Inspire”, “Strength of Will”, “To Arms”).

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Thumbs up! All this looks useful.

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The Legendary Capstone Trait “Master of War” has been improved in several ways:
There is no longer a +15 second Cooldown penalty on Shadow’s Lament.
Shadow’s Lament now provides the Battle-readied effect on a successful hit.
When using “Blade-brother”, the Captain also receives the full benefits of the Blade-brother skills (“Inspire”, “Strength of Will”, “To Arms”).

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This sounds like a nice dps boost for high-level captains.

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Level 66: Improved Sure Strike – On a successful hit, reduces the active cooldown of “Battle-shout” by 2 seconds.
Level 68: Improved Grave Wound – When hitting a target affected by “Cutting Attack,” adds a second damage-over-time effect to the target.
Level 70: Song-brother
Inspire (Song-brother) – A melee attack which provides a power-over-time effect to your Song-brother.
Strength of Will (Song-brother) – A buff which reduces the Power Cost of your Song-brother’s Healing skills by 10%.
To Arms (Song-brother) – A buff which increases the Outgoing Healing of your Song-brother by 25% for 10 seconds.
Level 72: Improved Cutting Attack – Reduces the Movement Speed of your target by 25% for 20 seconds.
Level 74: Blade-brother
Inspire (Blade-brother) – A melee attack which provides a small heal-over-time effect and a small power-over-time effect to your Blade-brother.
Strength of Will (Blade-brother) – A buff which reduces the Attack Duration of your Blade-brother by 5%.
To Arms (Blade-brother) – A buff which increase the Outgoing Damage of your Blade-brother by 25% for 10 seconds.
Note: The Shield-brother version of “To Arms” now provides -15% Incoming Damage for 10 seconds.

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There are a couple of nice dps skills here, especially Strength of Will (Blade-brother) which if combined with the legacy (if the legacy remains unchanged) might be overpowered.

The removal of the damage buff from To Arms (Shield-brother) is a serious decrease to captains' usefulness before they reach level 74. I'm not happy about that. But if the current Shield-brother skills (damage buff, incoming healing buff, and heal-over-time) were so overpowered that they can no longer be used simultaneously, then so be it. I don't plan on spending much time below level cap with my captain, but the journey to level 75 for a new captain will be long.

An earlier dev diary proposed increasing the cooldown for Inspire to the duration of its heal-over-time effect. Since the skill currently doesn't provide the heal if it misses, this could be a significant downgrade. Since outgoing healing will now be bolstered by might, it would be fun if Inspire's heal were correlated to the damage from the attack instead of outgoing heal rating, but only if the cooldown remained the same as it is now.

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Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Hey i like most of the updates buuuut....

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous. Don't wanna be rude but this sounds really stupid to me. There is a reason why you can't parry ranged physical attacks, no need to explain k? There's also a reason why avoiding attacks with your weapon is called parry. To block something, you want to use a shield instead. So your giving captains a third avoidance although it makes completly no sense. Why not boost parry instead?

Don't like this at all.

But good thing is, that i'll lmao everytime my captain is blocking some arrows with his greatsword, because i'll think of someone who decided that this makes perfect sense.

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I'm not so sure this is as rediculous as you make it out to be. I think of a block as a deflection as well, and it's certainly the case that a greatsword or something else could have a chance to deflect a ranged attack. A close physical attack could certainly be blocked by a two-handed weapon as well -- think to any of the movies (or fighting movies in general) where a two-handed staff or pole type weapon blocked a sword or batted away a blow.

I think it's a great example of creativity on the part of the devs, and gives us a reason to bring back the halberd and other 2-handers for our captains :)

I am very excite!

With the confirmation that we have a "main" stat, my apprehensions with the RoI changes are largely satisfied. And all these new traits and trait consolidations look positive and well thought-out. I especially love that it doesnt seem as if there is one captain traitline to rule them all. All three have a purpose and each will probably be called for in different situations or groups with a buncha pubs. If I were assured that there would be a little breathing room for the Brother skill cooldowns (inspire and SoW), I'd say I was fully satisfied.

Thanks, devs!


PS

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Originally Posted by Aphasial

I'm not so sure this is as rediculous as you make it out to be. I think of a block as a deflection as well, and it's certainly the case that a greatsword or something else could have a chance to deflect a ranged attack. A close physical attack could certainly be blocked by a two-handed weapon as well -- think to any of the movies (or fighting movies in general) where a two-handed staff or pole type weapon blocked a sword or batted away a blow.

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I would agree that block with 2-handers is a useful game mechanic for us. I'd like to see it. Makes about as much sense as attributing our ability to raise the morale of our compatriots to our physical might as opposed to our forceful will--which is to say, it makes practical gameplay sense.
But what your describing there--blocking an attack with your weapon--is pretty much the definition of a parry.

I am happy to see a full on diary for Captains stating all the changes. While I know not everyone will be happy that Might is our primary stat for damage and healing, I think consolidating to one stat will be better for Captains in the long run.

Two things from the Dev Diary that I did not like:

A) Improved Routing Cry - Can we please please PLEASE get a better name for a trait than this? Especially if it could be something more Captain-esque like our other trait names (my suggestion would be Now for Ruin or Cry of Anger, but anything is better than Improved)

B) Song-Brother at level 70, Blade-Brother at level 74 - I think having these only come into play in near the new level cap is unfortunate. Leader of Men, Hands of Healing, and Lead the Charge all have capstones which augment the three Brothers, and those legendaries can be obtained by level 60. However only Leader of Men will get to use the Captain getting the full bonus of the Brother at level 60. Hands of Healing and Lead the Charge have to wait 10-14 levels to do the same. Not to mention Captains who are leveling up will not get to increase the damage of their herald (or group members) using To Arms. It is going to take people a while to get down the concept of the Three brothers and which to use. Isn't it better to let Captains use them as they level up, so they can be better versed in them when they finally do reach the cap? I'd hate for the reason we have to get these at 70 and 74 be due to all classes have to get X new skills so those are being thrown in to appease that, despite the downsides it has to our class at lower levels.

Hey turbine , you couldnt make me any happier than you did.

I wont say much , peeps above covered everything , just 1 thing.

Give us a gear EXACTLY like DN !!!!!!!!!!!!
With that i mean : Might-Agility-Vitality-Fate boosts and MOST important : BIG power pools. ( Adding death-event minus CD again wouldnt be bad either hehe : P : P : P )

Dont make us build a decent power pool (3-4k at least ) through will/fate caster jewels now that will is useless.

Changes/improvements are all great , what we only need right now is a DN gear number 2 . Cheers again turbine <3

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Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Hey i like most of the updates buuuut....

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous. Don't wanna be rude but this sounds really stupid to me. There is a reason why you can't parry ranged physical attacks, no need to explain k? There's also a reason why avoiding attacks with your weapon is called parry. To block something, you want to use a shield instead. So your giving captains a third avoidance although it makes completly no sense. Why not boost parry instead?

Don't like this at all.

But good thing is, that i'll lmao everytime my captain is blocking some arrows with his greatsword, because i'll think of someone who decided that this makes perfect sense.

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And how many times have you seen mobs without shields, or animals, block your attacks? It's not without precedence in the game.

Plus, captain with a heavy shield would be ridiculously OP - high threat and crazy good survivability. Enough survivability to make a warden look like a fervor champ that just agroed 30 mobs and started to tank them still in fervor..

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Originally Posted by Aphasial

I'm not so sure this is as rediculous as you make it out to be. I think of a block as a deflection as well, and it's certainly the case that a greatsword or something else could have a chance to deflect a ranged attack. A close physical attack could certainly be blocked by a two-handed weapon as well -- think to any of the movies (or fighting movies in general) where a two-handed staff or pole type weapon blocked a sword or batted away a blow.

I think it's a great example of creativity on the part of the devs, and gives us a reason to bring back the halberd and other 2-handers for our captains :)

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I doubt that anyone could block arrows neither with a 30-40 pound war hammer or halberd, or simply any polearm weapon nor with a greatsword. This only happens in ninja movies but not in middle earth :> and not on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And how many times have you seen mobs without shields, or animals, block your attacks? It's not without precedence in the game.

Plus, captain with a heavy shield would be ridiculously OP - high threat and crazy good survivability. Enough survivability to make a warden look like a fervor champ that just agroed 30 mobs and started to tank them still in fervor..

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While I completely agree with you, I have to say it's bugged me to no end that a captain archetype can't use a large shield. From a fantasy perspective, it makes no sense. I could rationalize a champion archetype not being able to use a shield over a captain type. It just aggravates me that I can't have a sword/shield cappy.

/rantoff

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And how many times have you seen mobs without shields, or animals, block your attacks? It's not without precedence in the game.

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Good point, and how many classes, captains excluded, you saw blocking arrows with their weapon? All mobs can block, regardless of whether they visually wear a shield or not, because they simply dont wear any equip(just try monsterplay). Its just a decission that all mobs can block.

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

I'm really looking forward to these changes, how I play and equip my cappy now will vary a lot from how I'll play it at lvl75.

Couple of concerns so far:
With our outgoing healing linked to might we'll still be very much reliant on will & fate for power pool and regen. Vast majority of relics and jewels with might on dont incorporate will or fate. I hope Turbine have allowed for this with end game gear.
“Cry of Vengeance” can no longer be reset with time of need (composure trait). I see some cooldowns have been reduced but hope the frequency of our rezzes havent been reduced overall.
We're going to need those extra LI slots, LIs for healing, tanking, plus the usual buffing LIs!

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Originally Posted by Erethal

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

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I think that is a very interesting and sensible idea, and I'd be all for it... Only issue is all marks share a cooldown now, so it may have practical problems.

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Originally Posted by gorma_eu

I doubt that anyone could block arrows neither with a 30-40 pound war hammer or halberd, or simply any polearm weapon nor with a greatsword. This only happens in ninja movies but not in middle earth :> and not on a regular basis.

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You find THAT idea ridiculous, but not the idea of a Loremaster throwing a burning pinecone at battle-hardened trolls, orcs, etc to kill them?

You know this is a video game right? And that middle-earth isn't real?

Looks great all around. And for you trollies crying about the block.. where did you get the idea that blocking can only be done with a shield? I'm pretty sure the people who MAKE the game have control of this, not your pre-concieved notions.

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Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Hey i like most of the updates buuuut....

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous. Don't wanna be rude but this sounds really stupid to me. There is a reason why you can't parry ranged physical attacks, no need to explain k? There's also a reason why avoiding attacks with your weapon is called parry. To block something, you want to use a shield instead. So your giving captains a third avoidance although it makes completly no sense. Why not boost parry instead?

Don't like this at all.

But good thing is, that i'll lmao everytime my captain is blocking some arrows with his greatsword, because i'll think of someone who decided that this makes perfect sense.

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Hey, my warg, not to mention every landscape mob out there, can block, with or without a shield. I'll admit it's abit weird, but hey, it's fantasy based video game. Live the fantasy, block with your face!

Rask, a few questions for you:
1) Is Shield of the Dunedain going to be a fast (as indicated by your post in the captain forums) or a normal skill (as indicated by the dev diary)?

2) How will Strength of Will's legacy affect the various Strength of Will's?

3) There are three captains in a fellow, each one using a different brother on a different person. All have the fellow brother trait slotted. Will the affects from all of the brothers stack, or will only the most recently used Inspire, Strength of Will, and To Arms count?

4) Since Shadow's Lament and Rally Cry have cooldown reduction legacies, any plans to add a cooldown reduction legacy for Routing Cry?

5) Is Time of Need's morale reduction legacy going to be adjusted?

6) Since there are general healing legacies, any possibility of adding general damage related legacies?

Thanks again!

I hope they think planned the new jewellery/armour sets with this might-instead-of-will-for-tactical-healing in mind.

As for now I see the majority of captains who focus on capping might run with 3k-3.5k power pools. Remember, no stat tomes (will nor might) as the builds shouldn't be influenced for something that's not available in-game.

That's way too low in a raid setting. Meaning that for the present scenario, changing from will to might as a key stat would be fail since captains wouldn't be able to keep up for long.

Just saying.

PS: I don't even play my captain that much no more. Heck, I don't play that much no more. But let's hear what others say. :)

Cheers

Overall, I have to say that I'm quite pleased with the Captain changes. I agree that I'd like to see Song Brother and Sword Brother earlier, but can live with it. I'm looking forward to playing my Captain to check out the changes once the expansion goes live!

Who says you can't block with a two hander?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw7Plkbjbcg

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Originally Posted by Erethal

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

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I agree that this would be a good idea, especially since the three marks each match a respective trait-line in functionality? Why should a LoM Captain be better at using Telling Mark than a LtC Captain? Shouldn't the LtC Captain (or at least a Captain with 2 LtC) be better at using Telling Mark than a Captain with nothing in LtC?

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think that is a very interesting and sensible idea, and I'd be all for it... Only issue is all marks share a cooldown now, so it may have practical problems.

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Na right now if you have a mark on a mob and don't have 2 LoM traits and switch marks, the 2 marks that aren't active go on the 10 second cooldown, but not the active mark so they can definitely adjust the cooldowns on the marks independently if they want to as it doesn't seem like it would be that complex to code.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Rask, a few questions for you:
1) Is Shield of the Dunedain going to be a fast (as indicated by your post in the captain forums) or a normal skill (as indicated by the dev diary)?

2) How will Strength of Will's legacy affect the various Strength of Will's?

3) There are three captains in a fellow, each one using a different brother on a different person. All have the fellow brother trait slotted. Will the affects from all of the brothers stack, or will only the most recently used Inspire, Strength of Will, and To Arms count?

4) Since Shadow's Lament and Rally Cry have cooldown reduction legacies, any plans to add a cooldown reduction legacy for Routing Cry?

5) Is Time of Need's morale reduction legacy going to be adjusted?

6) Since there are general healing legacies, any possibility of adding general damage related legacies?

Thanks again!

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I would love to see a Dev answer these questions as they have been asked for a while.
I would also add:
7) Are they still going to change the cool downs on x-brother skills since it is likely they are still going to have x-brother skill effects end if we don't have an active x-brother.


On a separate note, I am happy that we now have Might as the source of our outgoing healing and tactical offense. Thus our heavy armors will mesh with those used by guardians and champions more. This will greatly simplify heavy armor itemization as all heavy armor classes will value Might as a key stat. Hilariously, this also means that a Banner of War will improve a Captain's Outgoing Healing. Yes I find that funny, in a good way, as it now gives Captains more of a reason to use the War Banner.

And for those worried about power pools... go for ICPR and straight +power gear as that is more efficient than +will gear anyways for increasing the size of our power pools. This is the same type of gear that non-casters may consider to help their power pools since they can have power issues as well. Also we have to consider what sort of itemization we'll be getting, but now we can definitely focus on fewer stats like other classes while still being effective in all our roles, so no need to gear swap due to re-traiting, which is great. Hopefully the itemization will be available to avoid the power issues we had back in SoA.

And for the 'blocking without a shield is strange' remember parrying with a weapon is redirecting the attack away from you, blocking an attack with a weapon is using the weapon to stop the attack. When you see two sword-fighters lock blades with each other, that isn't parrying, that is blocking. Yes blocking an arrow sounds strange, but hey it is possible to chop an arrow out of the air with a sword and that stops the attack (sort of) so that could be considered blocking. Can do the same sort of motions with an axe, or a club or a hammer, or a halberd. And for those who want to do sword&board you would give up some offense, but gain more defense over a captain that is using a 2-hander to block as I doubt we'll be getting the +armor and crit defenses that shields (even light shields) have. Thus Sword&board should not be rendered obsolete by this change as it would still be a viable option for those who wish to use it.

Overall wow. Amazing and generous on part of Raskolnikov and devs.

1) Block without a shield? That's rather generous. But still sweet. Other Captains can block with their face. Me? With my nose.

2) Might > Will? Yeah that's gonna mean some adjustment but still sweet. And surely gear/rewards will move in that direction. I like this change because we don't have to divide/choose between "damage or heals"? Stack Might and we get both. Nice.

3) Blade Brother rather late now. :( But with all the gifts there needs to be a trade-off somewhere. Maybe.

4) With changed cooldowns suddenly certain seldom-used skills become genuinely useful. This also means more difficult choices for which legendary skills to slot.

5) The basic thinking "Cappies will always buff... but now they can choose to tank or heal or DPS" was inspired.

I think our general usefulness is going to go up a couple notches.

Overall, I like the changes. i hope it will be nice to concentrate on Might rather than having to raise all the basic stats!

I have two worries:

- Shield-brother is now a skill optimized for dropping onto the tank. We get it pretty early... but we don't get Song-brother and Blade-brother until very late! While leveling nowadays it is great to Shield-brother one's herald... but now until level 70 the Shield-brother buffs do little for the herald (who may not be taking damage).

- Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill? Song-brother might benefit non-healers and most classes would like the DPS buffs of Blade-brother... but it seems to me that in group content, if the Captain is being main healer or tank or concentrating on DPS, the others in the group won't want the capstone-matching -brother buff. So the captain has to decide: am I buffing them, or buffing them with the wrong buff just so *I* get the right one?

I guess my main worry is that Shield-brother is being changed to something less generally useful in order to make room for the 2 new -brother skills... but you don't get them until you're 70 and 74. That's a long slog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by be0wulfe

"The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)." - please tell me this is JUST for LoM ... ? If it's a class change ... argh. I've spent considerable effort capping out my Fate\Will because I can O/T well enough with ~450 Might, but I need the Fate\Will because I'm spamming heals\buffs as they come up.

#donotlike

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Honestly, 10 levels plus the stat changes including more of a stat on better gear to make upgrades more appealing pretty much means anything you are wearing now is not going to be worth anything at 75.

Very nice upcoming changes indeed, from my lvl 65 soloing-only captain point of view. Things I especially like are:

* "The trait “Strength from Within” no longer prevents the summoning of Heralds and Archers." So now I can finally slot this trait to get some additional healing for myself, as before it was useless because I couldn't summon heralds...

* Master of War legendary changes are great, as with right legacies I should be able to spam Shadows Lament quite often, and getting battle-readied state after successful hit doesn't hurt either. Also Blade-Brother will be nice skill to use with this legendary, instead of shield-brother.

EDIT: Oh, and I most certainly like that Might is now affecting tactical offence and outgoing healing instead of will, as at the moment my Might seems to be 461 while Will is only 189 :D

I'm quite happy with the proposed changes, and it only increases my newfound enthusiasm for the Captain class. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shukar

Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill?

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If you're tanking for a group, wouldn't you want the fellowship's healer or other squishy to have the benefits of a skill that will make them more durable? Ideally you will be handling aggro, but a little backup plan doesn't hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous.

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In real life, a weapon can be used to parry (redirect the energy of an attack) or block (absorb the energy of an attack). The first maneuver relies more on dexterity and the second depends more on strength, both of the weapon and the wielder. A two-handed weapon, which normally is heavier and longer than a one-handed weapon, would be an appropriate weapon to block with so long as the wielder has sufficient might to handle doing so.

The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)

Well, thats really a horrible change. Clearly, someone who proposed that does not fully grasp cpts skill set and role in a group.

Cpt was one of few classes or only one who needed all stats at reasoanable levels:

Vitality - cos of maximum morale and the fact that quite a lot of skill cost morale aswell
Agility - to increase the chance to crit which opens up most powerfull cpts skills
Might - for melee offence
Will - high pool of power aswell as outgoing healing rating
Fate - icpr and icmr

The reason for last 2 and its also a reason why putting outgoing healing ratinto into might is a bad idea is that cpt have no means to regain his own power at all hence the necessity to keep high maximum power and icpr.

Obviously, cpt could not max all stats so usually( in group/raid setup) most cpts rightly have choset to max will/fate and vitality. Might was not as important in group cos cpt's role is not dps so extra 10% dps doesn't not make much difference.

With RoI expansion Turbine have decided to remove all primary stats caps aswell as increasing secondary stats caps.

Looking at initial cpt proposed changes and stats dev diary, cpt was supposed to stay preety much the same (only class). That created a problem. Cpts dps compared to other classes (other class have the means to prioritise their stats.) would be even smaller. The gap would increase by 20 % or so.

Kudos to Roskolnikov for reacting to feedback and attempting to solve this. Unfortunately the solution is not perfect, in fact its even worse than it was.

As i stated above cpt's lack skills and ability to regain power so even thou tact offence rating (outgoing healing) has been transformed into might, cpt will still have to keep very high will and fate. Otherwise cpt will run out of power very quickly. It was easier to give up on might (dps -not very important) than it will be on power.

There is still time to change it before expansion and i do hope that developers would reconsider this changes.

Here is my proposal.

Instead of getting all secondary stats into might, lets put all of them into will (including melee offence). That way cpt could focus on 3 stats mostly - Will/Fate then Vitality. Still you probably would need agility at decent number but this solution would resolve imminent power problems for cpts. I do not believe it would overpower cpt in any way cos all other classes can focus on 2/3 stats. So way not allowing cpts doing the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarathelion

Obviously, cpt could not max all stats so usually( in group/raid setup) most cpts rightly have choset to max will/fate and vitality.

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"Rightly" have chosen this? So does that mean my captain's build is "wrong" then? (I focus on might, will and vitality.) Speaking less rhetorically, I doubt you have anything other than anecdotal knowledge to support your assertion that "most" captains focus on will, fate and vitality.

More to the issue at hand, the changes in equipment itemization should allow for more tailored attribute builds. Hopefully the developers will offer items that will be suitable for a captain's usual balancing act. Strong use by captains of crafted food and scholar items would also help, not to mention the assistance of other classes such as the lore-master.

@Tarathelion

I think might giving tactical offence and outgoing healing is genius decision.

With the RoI, every class will have one primary and maybe one secondary stat to aim for. If captains would keep the necessity to focus on all 5 stats it would put a huge burden on itemization for captains. You would need 3 completely different sets (dps, tank, heal), imagine there are 2 set alternatives for each class, there should be 6! for captain? Plus designing non-set heavy armour is much much easier when all heavy armour classes consider might as main stat.

Anyway, lets break down how it can be done without any complex changes:
Might - main stat for obvious reasons
Vitality - secondary stat
Agility - no need for agility, as was stated by devs many items will have critical rating(now increasing rating for all types of criticals)
Will/Fate - I think low power pool and low icpr may be an issue, in my opinion best solution is to decrease captains skills power cost by 20-40%?

So captains as every other class will keep 1 main and 1 secondary stat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fin.

@Tarathelion

I think might giving tactical offence and outgoing healing is genius decision.

With the RoI, every class will have one primary and maybe one secondary stat to aim for. If captains would keep the necessity to focus on all 5 stats it would put a huge burden on itemization for captains. You would need 3 completely different sets (dps, tank, heal), imagine there are 2 set alternatives for each class, there should be 6! for captain? Plus designing non-set heavy armour is much much easier when all heavy armour classes consider might as main stat.

Anyway, lets break down how it can be done without any complex changes:
Might - main stat for obvious reasons
Vitality - secondary stat
Agility - no need for agility, as was stated by devs many items will have critical rating(now increasing rating for all types of criticals)
Will/Fate - I think low power pool and low icpr may be an issue, in my opinion best solution is to decrease captains skills power cost by 20-40%?

So captains as every other class will keep 1 main and 1 secondary stat.

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Humm that´s not exactly true. Every melee class has two secondary stat, unless before RoI. After RoI, i believe Agility will serve still Champions and Guardians, and same about Captains: agility will improve evade and that will be needed for a tanking captain. Also, Will and fate will be needed for healing captain. Caster classes do have three "main" stats: Will, Fate and Vitality (let´s face it, Vitality is a secondary stat for EVERY class). Also, you must expect a class that fulfill several roles to need several stats. I´m sure the devs will find a balance for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

Also, Will and fate will be needed for healing captain. Caster classes do have three "main" stats: Will, Fate and Vitality (let´s face it, Vitality is a secondary stat for EVERY class). Also, you must expect a class that fulfill several roles to need several stats. I´m sure the devs will find a balance for this.

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Why will Will be particularly useful for a healing Captain? It provides only power of real use. Caster's (and Captain) historically used will because it provided tac offense/outgoing healing. That apparently no longer applies to Captain. IMHO Will becomes our least needed stat regardless of the role we pick. But we may have to prioritize raw power and even more ICPR than now...

Herellomar,

My knowledge may be anecdotal. Its based on opinions of cpts i know or that i have inspected (the ones the are well geared). It is my opinion that might is the least desirable stat from all of them atm. I've seen some cpt that are build on might but they are moslty build for ettenmoors. To answer your question, in my opinion might is a luxury stat, its not necessary ( i view these changes from raiding point of view). That is my opinion thou, you are entitled to disagree.

Having said that that is not my point.

As for itemization, yea if the changes stay the way , you would need to balance all stats. The problem is, there is no cap on stats anymore, so other classes can focus on their 2-3 stats without keeping other ones at decent levels. My point is, if they want for any class to focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality, let allow cpt do the same. Putting everything to into might its an attempt of doing that. In my opinion its failed attempt becouse of power problems.

Fin

I think in general we have the same opinion: let cpt focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality. My point is , make it will and not might.

The solution you are proposing could work aswell, having said that i highly doubt that they will lower the power requirements on skills atm, they could make some new skill that will allow cpt to regain some of his power or change existing one. (there is an option in HoH line to get benefits from song brother on yourself aswell, power over time from inspire).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shukar

- Shield-brother is now a skill optimized for dropping onto the tank. We get it pretty early... but we don't get Song-brother and Blade-brother until very late! While leveling nowadays it is great to Shield-brother one's herald... but now until level 70 the Shield-brother buffs do little for the herald (who may not be taking damage).

- Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill?

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Good points. I stand by my opinion that overall the changes are great. But I don't think I fully recognized how much is lost by making Shield-brother so late in levels.

Your point about sharing the -brother skill is a good one. But it occurred to me that I don't often "shield buddy swap". Some Captains can pull that off but when raiding I generally - not always - pick one person and leave it at that. If the tank is taking vast amounts of damage and it's not a dps race I shield-buddy the tank. (Pretty much all of Barad Guldur, Ost Dunhoth Fear, Ivar, and so on.) If the tank is basically okay but dps is a big issue I shield-buddy whoever dishes out the most dps. (Ost Dunhoth Disease, Wound, Gortheron, and so on.) And sometimes I do switch shield-buddies for different stages of a fight. (Hunters for Lieutenant stage one, then the tank after dismount. Hunters for Disease on the trees, then the tank when the guardians are up.) So with the changes even if the Captain is tanking we might choose the Shield-brother skill most important for that particular situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarathelion

As for itemization, yea if the changes stay the way , you would need to balance all stats. The problem is, there is no cap on stats anymore, so other classes can focus on their 2-3 stats without keeping other ones at decent levels. My point is, if they want for any class to focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality, let allow cpt do the same. Putting everything to into might its an attempt of doing that. In my opinion its failed attempt becouse of power problems.

Fin

I think in general we have the same opinion: let cpt focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality. My point is , make it will and not might.

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I think the ship has sailed here. Yes, they could go back and switch. But fact is, for a melee class Might makes more sense. The other heavies want Might, which makes stats desired on heavy armor common to all and makes itemization quite a bit simpler. They otherwise need non-set Heavy armor pieces for Captains with distinct stats emphasis from heavy armor pieces for Guards/Champs. The side benefits of might (mitigations) are what tanking capts would want, a line they are pushing in this release.

Will becomes largely a trash stat to Capts, wanted only for power which we may get in some other way. Might followed by Vit will be our biggest numbers I guess, and Agility/Fate wanted to a moderate degree for crits/ICPR (more emphasized if crit focused build perhaps). And the +75 IDOME will help with that :)

Delgon,

It is a fair point, on heavy armour itemization, it would make it harder to create heavy gear. In my opinion cpt suffer cos of it, and Turbine convenience should not be enough to justify that. The chances of changing anything now are slim, even thou anything in diary is subject to change.

As for might making sense, i'm not so sure. Tbh the direction Turbine've taken regarding primary and secondary stats doesn't makes much sense. Outgoing healing and tactical offence from might does not really make much sense either.

As for tanking cpt's, well the only way i can see them tanking, if there is no guard/warden or champ in group. Cpt is losing to much in that line. 3-mans maybe. Tbh, would prefer yellow line to be focused on support role than tanking, but well, to much to ask

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarathelion

Delgon,
As for tanking cpt's, well the only way i can see them tanking, if there is no guard/warden or champ in group. Cpt is losing to much in that line. 3-mans maybe. Tbh, would prefer yellow line to be focused on support role than tanking, but well, to much to ask

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I didn't say it would work, just that they are pushing it. Clearly Capt's tanking capabilities are getting a big boost. Enough that stuff that takes some effort/group coordination, like tanking even easier stuff like GS in an orderly way, will become more reasonable -- yes, you can do it now, but if tanking means "all mobs on the tank" it requires a more clueful group than a real tank needs as is. But not enough of a boost that Capts will be a tank of choice for harder material IMHO.

And btw, all the other skill changes are looking nice, esp brothers and slow on cutting attack (finally i will be able to chase creeps)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Why will Will be particularly useful for a healing Captain? It provides only power of real use. Caster's (and Captain) historically used will because it provided tac offense/outgoing healing. That apparently no longer applies to Captain. IMHO Will becomes our least needed stat regardless of the role we pick. But we may have to prioritize raw power and even more ICPR than now...

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Will gives raw power. And that´s always needed, specially if you have gear with low power pool. "only" is not a word i´d choose for a low power pool class as captain is. You will need a fair power pool and this means either Will, or +power gear. I noticed healing captains, but actually every kind of captain will need a fair amount of power ... like most of classes, even non caster ones.

And ICPR has been always a must on every character i did, except maybe on a guardian. It has advantages always over raw power stat. Any class can make good use of ICPR :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

Will gives raw power. And that´s always needed, specially if you have gear with low power pool. "only" is not a word i´d choose for a low power pool class as captain is. You will need a fair power pool and this means either Will, or +power gear. I noticed healing captains, but actually every kind of captain will need a fair amount of power ... like most of classes, even non caster ones.

And ICPR has been always a must on every character i did, except maybe on a guardian. It has advantages always over raw power stat. Any class can make good use of ICPR :)

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But historically, a Captain choose say 20 will over 80 power, as the will had major side benefits (healing output, tac) that compensate for the fact that you'd only get 60 power from the will. Hence the word "only", after the change you will only take Will for the power. I'm guessing +power and +ICPR will be prioritized over +Will, and Will is in general going to be the lowest captain stat by a fair bit. Are you not agreeing with that assessment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

But historically, a Captain choose say 20 will over 80 power, as the will had major side benefits (healing output, tac) that compensate for the fact that you'd only get 60 power from the will. Hence the word "only", after the change you will only take Will for the power. I'm guessing +power and +ICPR will be prioritized over +Will, and Will is in general going to be the lowest captain stat by a fair bit. Are you not agreeing with that assessment?

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I agree about Will not as important as all the physical stats, and maybe for long fights Fate could be important, but honestly it doesn´t give that much ICPR, and by soloing i´d prefer to refresh my out-of-combat power regeneration coming off Will. Same about Fear saves, although considering captains can cure them, is not such an issue. Still, it´s easier to find +Will items than ICPR or +power ones.

So i guess we will see captains still trying to get Will -although not as much as before.

Plus, considering itemization coming, it´s possible now to "choose" which stats you want in your gear. We should be getting heavy armor/jewelry with different stats and also with ICPR/power/morale, so it will be a matter of taste for each of us to decide which item is better for our playstyle.

With recent changes, captains will be much better, and even more beloved in fellowships.

I agree with you, Delgon. The only thing Will will mean to us in September is +3power/1will. Power pool is important, and I believe that picking gear with raw Power on it will alleviate the power we won't be getting from neglecting will in favor of might.

Hopefully this will mean we have a little bit less to worry about because currently, every stat is important for a captain (some arguably a little more than others).

The viability of this change is going to come down to what sort of gear we get at 75.



On another note, what relation will Agility and Fate have to our melee and tact crit ratings come RoI? Same as before, with the only difference being that crit rating on items affects both tactical and melee? Or will we have a "main crit" stat as well? I didnt quite pick that up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think the ship has sailed here. Yes, they could go back and switch. But fact is, for a melee class Might makes more sense. The other heavies want Might, which makes stats desired on heavy armor common to all and makes itemization quite a bit simpler. They otherwise need non-set Heavy armor pieces for Captains with distinct stats emphasis from heavy armor pieces for Guards/Champs. The side benefits of might (mitigations) are what tanking capts would want, a line they are pushing in this release.

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A number of folks keep coming back to the "they're doing this partly to make itemization easier for non-set Heavy Armor", which is a nice thought, but I think that Turbine just chose a stat and stuck with it. If it were really about making itemization for non-set Heavy Armor easier, why did Turbine also choose to make Might the Warden's primary stat, when the other two Medium Armor wearers use Agility as their primary stat?

Lovely changes, but I'm also one of the people not fond of having might as our primary stat. To me it makes much more sense to have both might and will as primary stats.

Just make it (Might*4 + Will*4) = Melee Offence and Outgoing Healing rating. The multiplier should be between 3 and 4 I think. Above 4 would be too overpowered, under 3 would be too weak compared to other classes. We need the high will because our skills just cost too much power. Also, if the rating is calculated this way, it's an acknowledgement of the captain being a true hybrid class.

The only way to justify the might focus is a huge decrease in power costs for our skills. That, or make might and will equal, as they're equally important for a captain (except that might isn't all that important for a captain).

Critical Hit Rating – will replace the separate melee, ranged and tactical critical hit ratings previously appearing on items. Critical hit rating will enable all attacks to have an increased chance to critical hit.

I believe this is a good change. To only have to focus on might for tact and outgoing healing will definately help us(me). After all, will/fate has been pretty low sometimes in my captains life, raw power and icpr has always been preffered.

Has there been any mention of what will happen to the legacy for increased healing from Str of Will when applied to the new -brother skills? I don't really see a problem with -25% reduced power costs, but for Blade-bro are we looking at -20% attack for 30s (traited + legacies) out of every min? That we then apply to the group with the new Legendary? And war-cry being changed to the previous traited 15%, 1/2 the time you're running with a Capt you can expect to attack 35% faster (and the rest of the group swinging 25% faster?)? Does this stack with, say, a champ's flurry?

It just seems really OP to me, considering I never bothered with traiting war-cry cause I found 10% to be enough of a dps boost.

I like the changes to the trait lines, and the different brother skills will be interesting, but I'm reserving judgment on those till we see how they play out.

The only thing I don't like are the stat changes. When the first dev diary came out about them, I was really happy that Captains remained unchanged, because my main is a captain and I very much enjoy having a balanced build with all my stats in the 400-500 range (pre-buffs). Captains can do a bit of everything, so we need to have a bit of all the stats. It might be different than other classes, but, hey, we're not other classes!

In my opinion, stats should all do the same thing for every class. It doesn't make sense to me that one class should get more or less or a different effect from the same stat. So, different classes need to stack different stats because the effects of those stats are more useful for their skills or role, but there is nothing wrong or unfair about that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rammie

Just make it (Might*4 + Will*4) = Melee Offence and Outgoing Healing rating. The multiplier should be between 3 and 4 I think. Above 4 would be too overpowered, under 3 would be too weak compared to other classes. We need the high will because our skills just cost too much power. Also, if the rating is calculated this way, it's an acknowledgement of the captain being a true hybrid class.

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Considering that might will give 10 to Melee offence, Outgoing Healing, and Tactical Offence, that would be a nerf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Aurochs

I like the changes to the trait lines, and the different brother skills will be interesting, but I'm reserving judgment on those till we see how they play out.

The only thing I don't like are the stat changes. When the first dev diary came out about them, I was really happy that Captains remained unchanged, because my main is a captain and I very much enjoy having a balanced build with all my stats in the 400-500 range (pre-buffs). Captains can do a bit of everything, so we need to have a bit of all the stats. It might be different than other classes, but, hey, we're not other classes!

In my opinion, stats should all do the same thing for every class. It doesn't make sense to me that one class should get more or less or a different effect from the same stat. So, different classes need to stack different stats because the effects of those stats are more useful for their skills or role, but there is nothing wrong or unfair about that.

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Since they adjusted how all the classes draw for each stat, it would only make sense that they would do the same for the captains.

Jaerek, I dont think SoW legacies have been discussed much, and thats a good thing to bring up. I'm curious about it myself. I would like to correct a few of your misconceptions, though, and add a few thoughts of my own.

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Originally Posted by jaerekviserys

Has there been any mention of what will happen to the legacy for increased healing from Str of Will when applied to the new -brother skills? I don't really see a problem with -25% reduced power costs, but for Blade-bro are we looking at -20% attack for 30s (traited + legacies) out of every min? That we then apply to the group with the new Legendary? ... ...

It just seems really OP to me, considering I never bothered with traiting war-cry cause I found 10% to be enough of a dps boost.

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I don't believe there has been mention, so for now we can only assume it works the same way as Shield-brother SoW does now. Also, SoW is essentially a constant buff; 30s is for To Arms.

This is how SoW works now. The increase from the Strength of Will legacy currently does not apply to the whole group even with Leader of Men traited.

Say, at base without a SoW legacy on your LI, you give:
+5% incoming healing to your shield-brother

Then, when you trait Leader of Men:
+5% incoming healing to your shield-brother, +4% (I think thats the number) everyone else

Then, when you add a maxed out SoW legacy to the mix:
+20% incoming healing to your shield-brother, +4% everyone else

Here's another reference besides what I've observed: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Elbor..._Captain_Class
This differs from the To Arms legacy which is currently transferred to the whole fellowship with LoM. At 30s of every minute, traited and max legacied.

So assuming BB SoW will work similar to SB SoW, the SoW legacy will max out to -15% (not counting the base -5%) attack duration for blade brother, and I doubt it will apply to the rest of the group. The devs probably implemented the SoW legacy the way they did with the Shield-brother incoming healing because, yeah, it might be a little OP to spread out +20% or so to everyone. And you are correct, spreading that big attack duration decrease to the whole fellowship would be OP as well.

Hmm, with the new capstone changes--specifically, some Brother effects applying to you the captain in full--we might be able to get it so that the Blade-brother and the Captain have -20% attack duration and the rest of the guys have -4%. Thats purely conjecture, though.

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Originally Posted by jaerekviserys

...And war-cry being changed to the previous traited 15%, 1/2 the time you're running with a Capt you can expect to attack 35% faster (and the rest of the group swinging 25% faster?)? Does this stack with, say, a champ's flurry?...

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Decreased attack durations stack multiplicatively, according to this gentleman on his 4th post. This is a great topic; I learned a lot.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...PS#post5466238

Love the change from will > might as our main priority, and I agree with delgon on pretty much all the issues surrounding the debate.

However I will add one more reason, I loved building for might on my captain I hate building for will and fate. Many captains feel as I do.

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Originally Posted by Rammie

Lovely changes, but I'm also one of the people not fond of having might as our primary stat. To me it makes much more sense to have both might and will as primary stats.

Just make it (Might*4 + Will*4) = Melee Offence and Outgoing Healing rating. The multiplier should be between 3 and 4 I think. Above 4 would be too overpowered, under 3 would be too weak compared to other classes. We need the high will because our skills just cost too much power. Also, if the rating is calculated this way, it's an acknowledgement of the captain being a true hybrid class.

The only way to justify the might focus is a huge decrease in power costs for our skills. That, or make might and will equal, as they're equally important for a captain (except that might isn't all that important for a captain).

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I agree, but if they're releasing a dev diary this close to release, seems unlikely they're going to change their minds. There is precedent, since they've made radical changes in the past even after a change was released, but seems unlikely. imho.

Interesting that no one else in the thread was taken by this change:

The skill “Noble Mark” has been changed to better support its role as a tanking skill:

• The damage-over-time effect has been removed.
• Any player (except the Captain) who attacks the target of Noble Mark receives -10% Perceived Threat for 10s."

Though the damage over time effect of Noble Mark was pretty useless in most scenarios, the skill had value situationally as a pulling tool. It was cheap, effective, and easily switched out to something more useful as the mob approached. I used it frequently this way, and will miss having that as an option. In fact, if it still had a bleed it's likely I wouldn't switch it out at all, as the new -threat to the rest of the party has value.

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Originally Posted by Jenara

Though the damage over time effect of Noble Mark was pretty useless in most scenarios, the skill had value situationally as a pulling tool. It was cheap, effective, and easily switched out to something more useful as the mob approached. I used it frequently this way, and will miss having that as an option. In fact, if it still had a bleed it's likely I wouldn't switch it out at all, as the new -threat to the rest of the party has value.

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I generally range pull with either threatening shout or battle shout anyway. I think being able to use any of the three marks without pulling is a bit of a feature, though in the case of noble where you are tanking most likely you'll be doing the pull anyway. I like to open with battle shout to start the cooldown at the earliest point...

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Originally Posted by Jenara

I agree, but if they're releasing a dev diary this close to release, seems unlikely they're going to change their minds. There is precedent, since they've made radical changes in the past even after a change was released, but seems unlikely. imho.

Interesting that no one else in the thread was taken by this change:

The skill “Noble Mark” has been changed to better support its role as a tanking skill:

• The damage-over-time effect has been removed.
• Any player (except the Captain) who attacks the target of Noble Mark receives -10% Perceived Threat for 10s."

Though the damage over time effect of Noble Mark was pretty useless in most scenarios, the skill had value situationally as a pulling tool. It was cheap, effective, and easily switched out to something more useful as the mob approached. I used it frequently this way, and will miss having that as an option. In fact, if it still had a bleed it's likely I wouldn't switch it out at all, as the new -threat to the rest of the party has value.

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The one issue I have with the new Noble Mark is that it does not decrease the perceived threat from healers unless they are also attacking the mob, which can be a problem. It would be nice if the debuff was just a blanket -10% perceived threat for everyone BUT the captain who placed the mark, instead of the person having to keep hitting the mob every 10 seconds to get that effect. That way it will help with Captains dealing with healers drawing threat as much as the DPSers drawing threat. Right now the healers would have to keep throwing attacks every 10 seconds which generates additional threat, uses power (unless it is melee auto attacks), and is time spent not healing. And there are situations you don't want the healers close enough to auto-attack due to point blank aoes and the fewer people hit the fewer people that need to be healed.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I generally range pull with either threatening shout or battle shout anyway. I think being able to use any of the three marks without pulling is a bit of a feature, though in the case of noble where you are tanking most likely you'll be doing the pull anyway. I like to open with battle shout to start the cooldown at the earliest point...

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I'm the same way, when I range pull it is either with Threatening Shout or Battle Shout, although I can see some people pulling with Noble Mark, pulling with Battle Shout is better for the cooldown issue as you mentioned, but we do have means of a 40m pull since that is the range on Noble Mark, although I prefer using Threatening Shout for range pulls since it also has a good range. Although I do like how Telling and Revealing mark don't cause agro since then you can preemptively use them just like some of the preemptive debuffing loremasters and burglars can do.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I generally range pull with either threatening shout or battle shout anyway. I think being able to use any of the three marks without pulling is a bit of a feature, though in the case of noble where you are tanking most likely you'll be doing the pull anyway. I like to open with battle shout to start the cooldown at the earliest point...

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Isn't Noble Mark still a ToT?

That's what was doing most of the pulling, if memory serves....

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Isn't Noble Mark still a ToT?

That's what was doing most of the pulling, if memory serves....

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I assumed it was the damage tick, but could easily be wrong there. Guess we'll have to see.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I assumed it was the damage tick, but could easily be wrong there. Guess we'll have to see.

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I believe the threat is immediate but the DoT is not. That's why it takes a while for the level 1 critters to die from it.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I assumed it was the damage tick, but could easily be wrong there. Guess we'll have to see.

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The damage tick used to be instant but that was removed shortly after the trait set features were introduced and Captains realized with 2 LoM traits they could rapidly toggle Noble Mark and manage to do some ranged damage in the moors by continually doing the initial tick of damage over and over again. I never tried it so I don't know what DPS it would crank out but I doubt it was more than 200dps since the initial tic would be around 70 damage or so and I can't remember how fast people could toggle it, but even only 3 toggles a second would result in 210dps, but with macros that or maybe even more could have been possible.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I believe the threat is immediate but the DoT is not. That's why it takes a while for the level 1 critters to die from it.

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Yep.
Mark them and then they run around for 10 seconds and then they fall over when first tick of damage goes off. When I'm bored and a critter has been getting annoying with the 'tab to a new enemy target' I'll sometimes mark it to get it out of the way.

I like might over will by far. I know some raiders are big on Will for captain but Will has never been a primary stat for Captain and it is not slotted often except for very focused end game players. A class design has to be for all players and not just a small subset who do raids; it has to work for level 1 up through max level, it has to work for soloers and casual groupers and hardcore groupers. Will has only benefited outgoing healing for a relatively short period of time, before then Captains slotted Will only because they found themselves short of power.

The benefit of using Might means that it's just going to work naturally for Captains even without much thinking. Most of the heavy armor has Might on it, very little has large amount of Will or a Might/Will mix. So you pick the heavy armor quest rewards, or go with crafted, and you'll get the stats you need. Plus the design of captain has always been a front row melee character, not a back-row healer. It makes sense to gear up like a front row class who can take hits and mitigate damage.

Most captains I think won't be reading this dev diary or knowing explicitly what stats are really important. The high end players however will be focusing on all these details, maybe even building spreadsheets to optimize things. These are two very different groups of players, and both groups are very important to Turbine. If they set the main stat of Captain to Will they make the high end players who already have Will slotted happy, but they'll confuse the average captain who is wondering why they aren't as effective as they used to be. But if they make Might the main stat then most captains benefit by default and the high end players will adapt like they always do after every change, and over ten levels they'll be hunting down new gear for every single slot anyway.

Now we'll just need Will to overcome power problems, if we still have those problems. This makes us no different from any other melee class in that regard. Hopefully the expansion also tweaks power costs of skills (hint hint to any devs seeing this :-).

Another question for Rask:
Does the 4 Trait Lead the Charge bonus only affect Melee Critical Chance, or will it affect melee, ranged, and tactical critical chance? This change would also mirror what we're seeing in the gear, which is the consolidation of the specific critical chances.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

I like might over will by far. I know some raiders are big on Will for captain but Will has never been a primary stat for Captain and it is not slotted often except for very focused end game players. A class design has to be for all players and not just a small subset who do raids; it has to work for level 1 up through max level, it has to work for soloers and casual groupers and hardcore groupers. Will has only benefited outgoing healing for a relatively short period of time, before then Captains slotted Will only because they found themselves short of power.

The benefit of using Might means that it's just going to work naturally for Captains even without much thinking. Most of the heavy armor has Might on it, very little has large amount of Will or a Might/Will mix. So you pick the heavy armor quest rewards, or go with crafted, and you'll get the stats you need. Plus the design of captain has always been a front row melee character, not a back-row healer. It makes sense to gear up like a front row class who can take hits and mitigate damage.

Most captains I think won't be reading this dev diary or knowing explicitly what stats are really important. The high end players however will be focusing on all these details, maybe even building spreadsheets to optimize things. These are two very different groups of players, and both groups are very important to Turbine. If they set the main stat of Captain to Will they make the high end players who already have Will slotted happy, but they'll confuse the average captain who is wondering why they aren't as effective as they used to be. But if they make Might the main stat then most captains benefit by default and the high end players will adapt like they always do after every change, and over ten levels they'll be hunting down new gear for every single slot anyway.

Now we'll just need Will to overcome power problems, if we still have those problems. This makes us no different from any other melee class in that regard. Hopefully the expansion also tweaks power costs of skills (hint hint to any devs seeing this :-).

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Not to mention that leveling a captain using anything with will is going to make it suck pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by jaerekviserys

It just seems really OP to me, considering I never bothered with traiting war-cry cause I found 10% to be enough of a dps boost.

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traited war cry is a great dps boost compared to our other traits. war cry and now for wrath are pretty much the only traits i always have on no matter what

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Since they adjusted how all the classes draw for each stat, it would only make sense that they would do the same for the captains.

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I agree it makes sense for them to do it for captains if they did it for other classes, but my point was that it doesn't make sense to do it for any class. Why should any stat have a different effect for one class than it has for another class?

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Aurochs

I agree it makes sense for them to do it for captains if they did it for other classes, but my point was that it doesn't make sense to do it for any class. Why should any stat have a different effect for one class than it has for another class?

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Because different tactics, involve different abilities and the use of those stats. A burgalers skills are based primarily on his agility or slight of hand. Guardians are all about how mighty they are and can absorb many blows with there heavy shield and heavy armor.

Captains are supposed to Inspire, Impress, and Raise the spirits of those who see him fight through the strength and valiance of his attacks. Might is the obvious winner in the captain scenario, or would you prefer a weak and enfeebled captain going in for a valiant strike that impress's no one because it bounces off.

happy cappie waiting for RoI here.
I just think that blade brother comes too late (should be available at about 60 not 74...) but in general - GREAT NEWS

Thank You

All good, all nice! I'm very happy since this is my 2nd favorite class! Additional ensurance for offtanking in Leader of Man, a boost in Hands of Healing (which was most needed) and Lead The Charge seems to have the same dps lol... but hey, we're a GROUP SUPPORT class right? If we're thinking about dps in a fellowship or raid, Leader of Man makes our group rock high on it. Red traits are really for solo and they never disapointed me on questing and skirmishing. Again, if you want to damage fast like a dps class, go create one.

Only ooooone thing I didn't liked tho and I plead you to think about it. I understand why you put the block chance on 2-handed for leader of man, but.. really, blocking? Isn't "blocking" with a weapon, a parry? I know monsters can do that even when they don't wield shields but.. can't it be a bonus to our parry instead? We can get our own parry buff and then a good bonus for it from the LoM trait set would do it. Please don't make us block without shields, it degrades conception.

On a similar topic... now that I read that champions wont use shield anymore, what will happen to the light shields? Will only the ministrels wear it lol? Because now captains certainly won't (well most didnt anyway), f you put physical attribute light-shields no one will roll on it. Hope you guys re-design light shields to only give ministrel-desireable traits and... please, PLEASE if you're proceding that way, remove the one-handed legendary captain weapons alltogetether - they'll be there just for us to laugh at them.. or to tell the poor newbie captains they just wasted their resources/time by crafting/leveling a 1-handed LI weapon =P

For the king!

" I understand why you put the block chance on 2-handed for leader of man, but.. really, blocking? Isn't "blocking" with a weapon, a parry?"

No. A parry and a block are two seperate actions.

per definition:
parry-to ward off (a thrust, stroke, weapon, etc.), as in fencing; avert.
2. to turn aside

block-prevent or impede the motion or flow of (something or someone) by introducing an obstacle.

Any weapon can block a strike(though one made of wood would not be a wise choice).

Blocking with a weapon and blocking with a shield are the same. The only difference being the object you are using to block the incoming attacks. Blocking an attack just prevents you from getting hurt and forces your opponent to try again. A parry is diverting the stike of your opponent which has numerous effects such as throwing them off balance , disarming, or leaving them wide open for a fatal blow.

Why lotro made shield use the only way to block who knows....probably a balancing thing.

I like the idea of our power and crit rating coming from might. I guess I am unusual as a captain because I run with my might almost capped out, and my fate taking a back seat. Can't wait to see what my bad boy can so with the changes...Either way, gotta roll with the punches

Two overlooked things needing fixes that I never see mentioned and dunno why not.

Why do banners disappear after five minutes? Makes no sense for it to vanish. If there's some legitimate reason for it there should be something on the tooltip like Duration: 5m. There's no way to know about this other than hearing it from others or learning the hard way.

New defeat events should reset the timer for using defeat event skills like rally cry. It's quite annoying to see a mob die and then see your defeat event skills grayed out because the timer for it just expired on some previous kill. Say you wanted to skip that first defeat event because it made sense to do so and you figure on just using a War Cry after the next. NO. Now you get nothing. I can't imagine this is intended or liked by anyone.

All the upcoming changes look great by the way.

With regards to Might becoming the sole Captain stat of importance:

Frankly I think the devs made a mistake here. I think the underlying premise is deeply flawed. If one HAS to unify everything to a single stat, which in itself seems like a dumb idea, Captains should have been unified to use Will or even Fate rather than Might. It seems like a lot of the Captain's abilities come from the force of his/her personality rather than the strength of his/her arm.

If having to switch gear when going from Tank to Healer to DPS roles is the driver for the changes, I just don't see why things had to be unified to a single stat. The obvious change would have been to go from:

Might*10=>Melee/Tac & Will*10=>Heals
to
((Might+Will)/2)*10=>Melee/Tac/Heals
or
(Might*5)+(Will*5)=>Melee/Tac/Heals

Gear that buffs either helps, but the overall effect is the same as that given to the Guardians & Champions for Might. This would have eliminated the need to switch gear when switching roles, but kept the Captains distinctly different from the Champions et alia. We're all using computers here. The math that generates character stats could be a lot more complex than Might*10=>Melee Damage.

I can only assume that the devs didn't go down this route because they didn't want to tie healing to Might... oh wait that's exactly what they did do. Do you think they realize that?

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Originally Posted by ydoc

Captains are supposed to Inspire, Impress, and Raise the spirits of those who see him fight through the strength and valiance of his attacks. Might is the obvious winner in the captain scenario, or would you prefer a weak and enfeebled captain going in for a valiant strike that impress's no one because it bounces off.

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You're describing Conan not Aragorn; a Champion not a Captain. Will or Fate would be better stats if only one must be chosen. There would have been nothing wrong with having the Captain class as fundamentally different in design than the other classes.

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Originally Posted by Siquayetsga

With regards to Might becoming the sole Captain stat of importance:

Frankly I think the devs made a mistake here. I think the underlying premise is deeply flawed. If one HAS to unify everything to a single stat, which in itself seems like a dumb idea, Captains should have been unified to use Will or even Fate rather than Might. It seems like a lot of the Captain's abilities come from the force of his/her personality rather than the strength of his/her arm.

I can only assume that the devs didn't go down this route because they didn't want to tie healing to Might... oh wait that's exactly what they did do. Do you think they realize that?

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Well then lets just make him will based..... take away his heavy and 2h give him a staff and robes.... oh wait

Mights going to give healing/damage/defence...I see no problem here.

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Originally Posted by Siquayetsga

It seems like a lot of the Captain's abilities come from the force of his/her personality rather than the strength of his/her arm.

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Quite technically, a leader's abilities (especially in Middle Earth/medieval times) come from both, so your idea to make it might*5 and will*5 wouldn't be bad except might also gives mitigation, block, and parry, which are useful for tanking so Turbine decided to choose might as our primary stat.

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Originally Posted by Siquayetsga

You're describing Conan not Aragorn; a Champion not a Captain. Will or Fate would be better stats if only one must be chosen. There would have been nothing wrong with having the Captain class as fundamentally different in design than the other classes.

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Aragorn isn't a captain in lotro, he's a warden. Boromir, who is described as the strongest member of the fellowship/the strongest living man in Middle Earth, is whom the captain class is based off of. Boromir inspired the men of Gondor because of his feats of bravery and strength, not because he was a good speaker or a tactical genius. It makes perfect sense for captains to use might as their primary stat as the class is based off of this character. Not to mention will/fate provide absolutely no bonus to tanking, which Turbine wants captains to do in RoI. (As a side note, even if captains were based on Aragorn, in the books Aragorn, like Boromir, inspires people through his skill on the battlefield.)

IDOME needs to be 40-50m or 30min because this 25m is really frustrating, please fix ASAP