Rings of Power

[Fadil]

No, really not, and I'll tell you why.

In the book, Elendil is the son of the Lord of Andunië and so high nobility, a descendant of the minor branch of the Line of Kings. His father Amandil was adviser to the king, occupying the position Pharazon has in the series. So \Elendil's a major figure from the get-go and that's how he ends up being the leader of the Faithful and ultimately the High King once they flee to Middle-earth.
In this series, Elendil is some descendant of fallen petty nobility and just a ship captain. That's a major change. So you can't simply be all "but it's the same character" like that. The scenario is very different. - his entire life would have been very different to that of his namesake in the book.
And to top if all, Amandil is the leader of the Faithful to start with and Elendil's fully invested in that, not conflicted.

And while we're at it, Pharazon was the king's nephew (so not just some populist politician) and the leader of the King's Men (the most powerful political faction), in active opposition to Tar-Palantir's policies and that was what drove the king to despair.
Being one of the Faithful, Tar-Palantir chose to die before old age made him unfit to rule, in favour of Miriel taking the throne. At which point Pharazon forced Miriel to marry him (despite them being first cousins, so it wasn't legal) and usurped the throne.
And Pharazon and Miriel should be nearly the same age, too. So again, very different.

There are differences, absolutely. I never said the series followed the books to the letter, because its clear it doesn't.
But you are so obsessed with details that you can no longer see the big picture, so to speak.
The big picture of the different factions of Numenor, where one wanted to remain close to the elves, and the other not. Where a powerhungry, populist politician takes over
and is then further corrupted by Sauron, which ultimately led to the destruction of Numenor, is the same.

They create their own story in this story so to speak. Love it or hate it, I dont really care.

[Radhruin_EU]

There are differences, absolutely. I never said the series followed the books to the letter, because its clear it doesn't.
But you are so obsessed with details that you can no longer see the big picture, so to speak.
The big picture of the different factions of Numenor, where one wanted to remain close to the elves, and the other not. Where a powerhungry, populist politician takes over
and is then further corrupted by Sauron, which ultimately led to the destruction of Numenor, is the same.

No, just pointing out that if you change a character's entire family background and life history, it's not the same character. That the series retains some core concepts like the Faithful etc. doesn't change that.

Also Pharazon wasn't a populist politician, he was a member of the royal family with a claim of his own to the throne (just not as strong as Miriel's) and it was a GoT-style power grab. That's not just a detail, that's big-picture stuff.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Much repeated blurb

I pop in and out of this thread from week to week and it still makes me chuckle how the most vehement opponents are still posting much and continuing the conversation and interest. If it is that bad for you then maybe stop stoking the fire and let it fester and go out if that is truly what you think it will do.

[Radhruin_EU]

I pop in and out of this thread from week to week and it still makes me chuckle how the most vehement opponents are still posting much and continuing the conversation and interest. If it is that bad for you then maybe stop stoking the fire and let it fester and go out if that is truly what you think it will do.

Err... maybe because the series is still ongoing? There's a thought.

[paintpixie]

I pop in and out of this thread from week to week and it still makes me chuckle how the most vehement opponents are still posting much and continuing the conversation and interest. If it is that bad for you then maybe stop stoking the fire and let it fester and go out if that is truly what you think it will do.

I read threads on these forums and others, and it always makes me chuckle how there are people out there who are so bothered that other people make posts complaining about something rather than ignoring that thing. And rather than ignoring those people, they instead choose to add their opinion to the thread, but not about the issue the thread is about, rather the people who find it important enough to say something about. As though they are so morally above the topic, but they just want to make sure the people in it are aware of it.
I'll bet it could go on eternally, too, with all of our moral superiority over one another. ; P

(I think the show was made poorly, and have no interest in it, btw.)

Additionally, (I'm not suggesting the show is evil.) there is a saying along the lines of "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" (or something to that effect). If people feel strongly about something, whether this show, or the state of the game (a big deal for fans on ANY game forum), or anything else, it is their responsibility to speak up about it. In this case, I suppose evil could be switched out for mediocrity...
The people who complain the most are usually those who have it the closest to their hearts, and who are we to judge what somebody holds dear and will "fight" over?

[DKenny]

I read threads on these forums and others, and it always makes me chuckle how there are people out there who are so bothered that other people make posts complaining about something rather than ignoring that thing. And rather than ignoring those people, they instead choose to add their opinion to the thread, but not about the issue the thread is about, rather the people who find it important enough to say something about. As though they are so morally above the topic, but they just want to make sure the people in it are aware of it.
I'll bet it could go on eternally, too, with all of our moral superiority over one another. ; P

Exactly. One group is complaining about a bad show, perhaps one in which they had some hope it would be good. The second group is complaining about the people saying bad things about the show. It's not symmetrical, as the first is talking about the show and the second is talking about other people's opinions of the show.

(I think the show was made poorly, and have no interest in it, btw.)

Superficially nice look. Horrible writing / story. Epic fail.

Additionally, (I'm not suggesting the show is evil.) there is a saying along the lines of "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" (or something to that effect). If people feel strongly about something, whether this show, or the state of the game (a big deal for fans on ANY game forum), or anything else, it is their responsibility to speak up about it. In this case, I suppose evil could be switched out for mediocrity...
The people who complain the most are usually those who have it the closest to their hearts, and who are we to judge what somebody holds dear and will "fight" over?

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

[Arnenna]

Exactly. One group is complaining about a bad show, perhaps one in which they had some hope it would be good. The second group is complaining about the people saying bad things about the show. It's not symmetrical, as the first is talking about the show and the second is talking about other people's opinions of the show.

I'm fine with others not liking the show. Each to their own and all that, and happy to read their views.

But also happy to post my own opinion on the show, which - doesn't seem to be acceptable by some, and is seen as - group 2.

[DKenny]

I'm fine with others not liking the show. Each to their own and all that, and happy to read their views.

But also happy to post my own opinion on the show, which - doesn't seem to be acceptable by some, and is seen as - group 2.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion of it. If you enjoy it then I really don't have much to say about it. Notice, my response to your comment was specifically related to the content of the show (i.e. whether or not one can describe what's happening in the show as "Numenorean history unfolding", not whether or not you enjoy that content (which of course I have no say in).

[TesalionLortus]

They create their own story in this story so to speak. Love it or hate it, I dont really care.

Yes... and the question is why? What is the reason? Why possibly do it? When they have the rights to the correct story...

At the same time, let me tell you: such great story about Numenor with the same result but something is missing... hmm, wait... what could it possibly be... Unless I was sleepy somewhere, so far nobody mentioned the long Numenorean lifespan and bothered to introduce/explain that to viewers, not once. And that's as far off as you can possibly get, also the showrunners are skilled crowd manipulators apparently, because during the meetup with fans they knew all the right things to say (like favourite Tolkien theme and the answer was mortality) but then the show came out and these things can't be found anywhere in the story about Numenor... oh, wait, they made elves loose immortality... Was that the mortality they were talking about then? Must have read the wrong book then...

Well, it's things like this that make me in awe of the lengths of stupidity an "adaptation" may go to... The point is: there was NO reason for these changes and yet there they are, there was no reason for them to "create their own story in this story" (as if they didn't have the rights lol) and yet they've done it

[Arnenna]

Yes... and the question is why? What is the reason? Why possibly do it? When they have the rights to the correct story...

At the same time, let me tell you: such great story about Numenor with the same result but something is missing... hmm, wait... what could it possibly be... Unless I was sleepy somewhere, so far nobody mentioned the long Numenorean lifespan and bothered to introduce/explain that to viewers, not once. And that's as far off as you can possibly get, also the showrunners are skilled crowd manipulators apparently, because during the meetup with fans they knew all the right things to say (like favourite Tolkien theme and the answer was mortality) but then the show came out and these things can't be found anywhere in the story about Numenor... oh, wait, they made elves loose immortality... Was that the mortality they were talking about then? Must have read the wrong book then...

Well, it's things like this that make me in awe of the lengths of stupidity an "adaptation" may go to... The point is: there was NO reason for these changes and yet there they are, there was no reason for them to "create their own story in this story" (as if they didn't have the rights lol) and yet they've done it

Elves are immortal in the sense that they do not die of old age etc. They can recover from wounds that would kill humans, but they can be killed, and many die in battle. Numenoreans are not immortal. They have long life, as in, a normal life, just like every other human, which means they too can die in battle, from injuries, sickness etc. Lifespan has nothing to do with how long they live. They can live up to 300 - 400 years, as long as they don't die before that of something like sickness, accident, or battle.

The average lifespan for human beings out in the real world is 70 - 85 years, but, they can still die at any age between that and the day of their birth.

Numeronean history is unfolding slowly in the series. We already hear of long lost relations with the elves and I think there will be plenty more on that to follow.

[DKenny]

....Numeronean history is unfolding slowly in the series. We already hear of long lost relations with the elves and I think there will be plenty more on that to follow.

No, it isn't. Other than the name "Numenorean", it has nothing to do with Tolkien's history of Numenor.

[Arnenna]

No, it isn't. Other than the name "Numenorean", it has nothing to do with Tolkien's history of Numenor.

How would you know though, if you're not watching it. Is this something that you've picked up from the Youtube critics? All I can say is, you've been misinformed. This history of Numenor is unfolding, and there are references to the source material. I think we will see a lot more of it later too.

[DKenny]

How would you know though, if you're not watching it. Is this something that you've picked up from the Youtube critics? All I can say is, you've been misinformed. This history of Numenor is unfolding, and there are references to the source material. I think we will see a lot more of it later too.

You seem to dismiss a lot of criticism by attributing it to "Youtube critics". There are a lot of places on the internet where plots are summarized, and discrepancies / inconsistencies / contradictions are described / explained. You're entitled to your view that it is "Numenorean history". Too many glaring contradictions / discrepancies for me to accept it as such.

[Arnenna]

You seem to dismiss a lot of criticism by attributing it to "Youtube critics". There are a lot of places on the internet where plots are summarized, and discrepancies / inconsistencies / contradictions are described / explained. You're entitled to your view that it is "Numenorean history". Too many glaring contradictions / discrepancies for me to accept it as such.

Okay, Youtube was just an example, of course there are other places where the show is being dissected and discussed. Sorry, but I'm not going to list them all when referring to the criticism. They all do - the same thing.

I'm purely interested in how you can formulate any opinion based on the opinion - probably biased opinion, seeing as they are criticising the show - of others.

There has been mentions of Numemor and it's history in the show. Granted, there is a lot more that could be added, but, that may come later. I didn't get that info second hand, from anyone else. I got it straight from the show. Discrepancies and contradictions, now, I made no mention of those. There are some of those too. My response was to the post that said that there is no history of Numenor - when there is.

If all you do is go looking for negative reviews, then all you will find is negative reviews.

[TesalionLortus]

They have long life, as in, a normal life, just like every other human, which means they too can die in battle, from injuries, sickness etc. Lifespan has nothing to do with how long they live. They can live up to 300 - 400 years, as long as they don't die before that of something like sickness, accident, or battle.

The average lifespan for human beings out in the real world is 70 - 85 years, but, they can still die at any age between that and the day of their birth.

Numeronean history is unfolding slowly in the series. We already hear of long lost relations with the elves and I think there will be plenty more on that to follow.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, their lifespan is 300-400 years, which is like a wonder from the perspective of a regular man - this was kind of like... the main theme behind Numenoreans and you're saying that's not something the show should actually focus on here and bother to mention?



There is no Numenorean history here, and whatever there is was largely subverted. Here, key things behind Tolkien Numenoreans:

- Long lifespan and being gifted the island by the Valar, kind of a big deal and key element
(none of which mentioned in the show... except for Miriel lashing out that "they earned what they have" but that doesn't make any of it clear, so no, these things were not established AT ALL)

- They received many gifts from elves at first - so elves helped them to thrive, perhaps taught them important stuff, not merely just as friends and guests but as teachers and benefactors too
(this is something the show did hint at... somehow and mostly visually but hardly anywhere near close to important and hardly any context for it; there was even that scene when Elendil started to talk in elvish and wanted to share some background information about this rich history but... guess what, powerful warrior Galadriel wouldn't have any of it, "take me where I need to go, I'm no softie, where my revenge!")

- Ban of the Valar so they still gotta deal with mortality, which is the gift of all men. So the key element and theme of their story and tragedy is still missing here. Like... seriously? Not even once highlighted yet? This is a joke, really. Also, remember what I said about the creators, they knew all the right things to say to the fans they engaged in talk with and mortality, as they admitted, was "their favorite" Tolkien theme... but somehow is missing for Numenoreans here so go and figure what it might possibly mean and whether they were being honest or maybe they're just full of BS and don't care at all
(Ah but what the show is doing is having Numenoreans shout about completely imagined "stolen jobs" and "elven invaders". Really? How is that the story of Numenor again?)

- Long lifespan makes them, in fact, actually quite superior to all other men both in skill and wisdom, something that the show did not acknowledge and did not communicate at all... maybe because they wanted them to be generic humans like our real world so they can be framed as regular racists and xenophobic people, not complex peoples who actually have a certain sense of superiority and an unnatural advantage that brings them closer to elven kind?
(so again, none of that in the show, just regular humans screaming "they're taking our jobs!" on a rally)

- Because of the above... they actively explored all the seas, build colonies and helped "lesser men" prosper and counter Sauron
(nothing on the show suggest any of this, for all we know they don't have any active colonies and don't do much sailing other than around Numenor)

- Because Sauron was able to sway at least some of the people of Middle-earth to his cause (who were in general more easily swayed by shadow) one would imagine it was usually up to Numenoreans to tidy things up politically. So, in a sense, they could think of themselves a bit more highly and like they're morally superior and a shining beacon of righteousness and wisdom on these shores, which would make their turn and fall into outright supremacists and Black Numenoreans a little bit more nuanced and more tragic, just like it was supposed to be
(the show doesn't have this premise either, because in the show it was subverted and the elves gotta deal with "lesser men tempted by evil" - again, the people of Numenor are just randomly racist towards a "low man" of Middle-earth in the tavern, initially for no reason, so that's not Numenor at all, more like a forced mirror of American politics and social issues, in a contrived over-the-top representation).

- Because they explored all the seas and enriched themselves far and wide... they grew tempted by forbidden waters and grew bolder - the ban started to weight on them
(in the show they clearly weren't really enriching themselves in this way and who can even tell where they were sailing at all because Numenor, the famous sailors, are hardly even showed doing anything meaningful with their ships)

- Because of THAT they grew distanced from the elves and, in fact, jealous of their immortality
(the show says about the relations falling apart but doesn't really say why... if anything, with all the racist rallies and one-liners against the elves, and no word about the ban or their mortality with the baggage of extended lifespan... a viewer is just going to assume they're mostly just racist jerks who don't like elves for race reasons and standard irl bigotry, rallied by a populist figure... and that's clearly the show's intention with omitting all these other things so again, how is THAT a story of Numenor?)

- As the consequence, their colonies turned into fortresses and the colonialism started to show
(the show's colony that was mentioned was apparently abandoned and no longer active, besides... it was the elves who occupied the Southlands and were "helping" the men... so that's just another subverted thing and another key thing taken away from Numenor)

- No mention of Umbar so far, one of the key places of Numenorean/Black Numenorean history and one of their key key ports of Middle-earth. The abandoned colony mentioned in the show was Pelargil, surprisingly, so they can't even get something like that right.
(in canon, Pelargil was most likely created by the Faithful as their main hub, and they've got that in the Appendices)

- Colonies means resources and these resources would eventually create the splendor of the island that we see in the show
(except in the show it's contrived and exist in a vacuum out of nothing, apparently)

- Numenor had powerful fleets and some of the most impressive armies, except not really horsemen (it would also be quite logical for long distance mariners to prefer sea warfare and more easily deployed footmen)
(in the show they don't have armies, just volunteers, they don't have combat experience, and their ships are a joke if 3 is the best they could do and it's even more laughable that 3 small ships were enough for 300 men and all horses... like, we should have seen entire FLEETS of Numenoreans by now, where is that Numenorean history you're talking about?)

- They would eventually be outright oppressing peoples of Middle-earth and deforesting its shores to empower themselves and challenge Sauron
(oh, the show's Ar-Pharazon wanna have tributes from a dirty village now? how does that change things? it came a little to late, I would say... and with contrived context that makes it super weak because they already are super rich with impressively large dockyard, also Southlanders are so unimpressively poor they wouldn't enrich them in any way and 300 men wouldn't be enough to do it anyway)

- Ar-Pharazon's drive and ambition was to be king of the world of men and challenged Sauron over it
(Ar-Pharazon of the show mentioned elves who will be taking orders from them... so that sounds like just another subversion and the weight is being put elsewhere)

- That's hardly the most important thing at this point but yeah, they were supposed to be European looking and would be worried about purity of blood, at the very least at royal level, to keep their gift. In fact, it was a recurring theme that reappears in Gondor affairs too, so pretty important stuff with these people...
(but hey, the show's version is just random diversity, that's so "cool" - another theme butchered and removed)

- Their relationship and knowledge about the Valar was quite different than worship and they would know about the One, an actual creator god
(instead, the show's Numenoreans refer to them as gods and... they worship the sea, like seriously, it's not just a silly saying or anything, The Sea Is Always Right!!! is almost an equivalent of the biblical bull statue...)

- Miriel wasn't the Queen regent and Ar-Pharazon was no mere advisor and populist leader, he actually had a lesser claim to the throne, and, with Miriel's father there was a direct mention of strife and rebellion, so YES, Numenor was very GoT-like and it should have been treated a bit like that. Tolkien mentions Al-Pharazon "seizing the scepter" and refers to different kings as holding the scepter, which brings to mind this kingly, powerful nation at its peak, with offshore colonies and powerful resources, with political infighting and - sometimes - "the game of throne" (or desire for the place at "the small council" table, or perhaps for the position of the governor in a rich colony, which must have been the festering center of some serious corruption, because that's where all the surviving Black Numenoreans came from)
(none of that in the show... just a populist "they're taking our jobs" Ar-Pharazon and deviations from canon with Miriel... to make her a black girl power in the show... that they've recently blinded, so great "empowerment" I guess lol)

- We had the King's Men (of which there would be different political factions and houses no doubt) and Faithful (as the minority, with holdings in the West of the Island)
(No King's Men as a faction here and no noble houses of any kind mentioned yet, Ar-Pharazon just an advisor. They've only got Faithful and elf friends right - but even then Elendil if of no noble house as he should be and the mentions of the West of the Island they do have on the show... are completely devoid of any context, like an afterthought )

- The Island will be eventually destroyed by waves, sure, but... it should come as a surprise and a punishment for something nobody expected they would dare to do. Not come in dreams and prophecies of the future, which is complete BS and needless.
(which is all given far more spotlight in the show than anything from these other important key elements)

I mean, really... I could go on but... it's really THAT self-evident. 18 key factors and theme I could think of off the top of my head and only 2 of these actually in the show and even then largely diminished, done in a way that is shallow or unclear to people unfamiliar with the source material. Where is the history and story of Numenor again? The one that they're building towards? If the thing is 1% from canon and largely subverted and changed, then it stops being an adaptation.

Your post inspired a bit lengthy answer but it was nice thinking about all the Numenorean things from Tolkien. What a great adaptation it could have been... if at least 30-50 % made it into the show...

I hoped for a better show.

We all did... that's why people voice their dissatisfaction, bewilderment and disbelief at this sort of writing. Like, no one expected, even with bad people at the helm, that Tolkien material could turn out THIS bad. One could compare Tolkien to a historical account of events, so, in a way, it's a fantasy based on the historical account of fantastical epic events. The appendices they've got hit this point closer home since it doesn't really have narrative but got key history and how things unfolded written down and chronicled. History in TV was VERY rare and badly done for many many years now (if you don't count medieval times and above, plus viking, there is also a lot of viking stuff...). And even before that, not to mention recently, there were plenty of inaccurate, weird adaptation choices for historical events over the years. But none of them as ridiculously done and a giant miss as RoP... except in Bolywood! Plus, they've got it all said plainly by Tolkien in the Appendices so I'm tired of people coming up with the excuses and their favorite (as it would seem) "adaptation and making choices because they "don't have" the rights." Tolkien was pretty clear. It's not something like the sort of thing House of the Dragon gotta deal with, like the unreliable narrator sorting out other unreliable narrators (and they make some pretty neat adaptation choices there, so this show is such a great contrast to RoP).

If it's not in the appendices of The Hobbit + LotR, the showrunners can't use it. That means what they use to fill in the gaps will be their own creation, not stuff from other publications of Tolkien. That means this show is going to contradict established lore. It literally has to. They can't use the stuff they don't have license for. They have to make up something that looks different from the stuff they're not allowed to use.

Hmm, just noticed your post and this would be a good answer for you because all of the stuff I mentioned I'm pretty sure is covered in the Appendices... so yeah, tired of this "gotta dance around" argument when they actually have the rights to all the things that matter that most of us wanted to see and couldn't imagine this story without. I'm just not sure, why some people feel like they gotta defend these so-called showrunners with such far-fetched claims? You've read these things yourselves, no doubt, deep down you know most of that is covered by the Appendices anyway and, since you played LOTRO, deep down you know one can dance around the lore in ways that remain respectful to the main premise or motive (though, if something was really said in something they don't have the rights to, I wouldn't have mind a bit more crazy unexpected type of dancing around, as long as the core things are adapted well)