Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Feral_Yoda]

Can you tell me one time in the history of the game they've launched a higher level zone next to a lower level zone that couldn't be connected to the next previous level?

Minas Morgul. Granted an 8 level difference isn't much, but it is there.

[TesalionLortus]

But also connected to Elderslade. They've always launched a new zone with a new level cap adjacent to the previous or current level cap. Except where it's separated by teleport.

Because they build zone-by-zone, most of the time? As in, adjacent to zone and there is usually a zone that serves as a lead-up to expansion? (Wildermore, Vales of Langflood, Wastes, you name it) So it tends... to happen? The only time they ever did wholly separated zone would be Northern Mirkwood, and that's probably, like I said, they just wanted to do Northern Mirkwood, Dale, Erebor... all missing iconic locations. Except not even that was fully "unconnected" because, technically, the Hall Under the Mountain was first released with Mordor but then they figured out it's kinda meh it exists separately so that's probably how the idea of Dalelands came to be

[SingularityNow]

Because they build zone-by-zone, most of the time?

No they don't, they build level band by level band. Remember my point, the only way to go by level band adjacent to 140 is into forodwaith (I think that's the name) and I don't think you put a 150 zone there. maybe you do since ROP goes up there to visit Thangorodrim; but I doubt it.

Minas Morgul. Granted an 8 level difference isn't much, but it is there.

It's connected by teleport. You have to get to after battle Minas Tirith.

[Feral_Yoda]

It's connected by teleport. You have to get to after battle Minas Tirith.

Both of the Morgal Vale's neighboring expansion zones (North Ithilien and Mordor) are at least 8 levels lower. Both also existed prior to its expansion and was indeed a hole in the "Mordor" area map. And no you don't teleport directly into it. You must cross into North Ithilien (18 levels lower) from either After Battle Minas Tirith/Osgiliath or South Ithilien before entering the Morgal Vale area, or come from Mordor (which is 8 levels lower).

[TesalionLortus]

No they don't, they build level band by level band. Remember my point, the only way to go by level band adjacent to 140 is into forodwaith (I think that's the name) and I don't think you put a 150 zone there. maybe you do since ROP goes up there to visit Thangorodrim; but I doubt it.

Sorry but you're just creating problems out of nothing. They release zones as their story and geography requires it, they can do anything. As long as it's not directly to a zone like Shire. Though, in some cases, such as Ered Luin, I believe they could warm up to the idea and have lvl cap Lindon next to it because it's fairly easy to bar entryway due to mountain barrier (or maybe even 2 phasing gateways that open up only for higher lvl chars = the Black Gate treatment)

Forodwaith should be lvl cap, actually, nothing else. It's a harsh dangerous place, and you can have some mysterious stuff in there. I would also love higher lvl Eastern/North-eastern Forochel or that Forochel-to-Angmar gap

[SingularityNow]

Sorry but you're just creating problems out of nothing.

If you're having a problem over this discussion, maybe take a step back? There is no problem here, it's just talking about the game. Completely silly to get mad over it.

[TesalionLortus]

If you're having a problem over this discussion, maybe take a step back? There is no problem here, it's just talking about the game. Completely silly to get mad over it.

Dude... that's what I'm doing (=discussion, talking about the game). I just rebutted your point because it seems to me you were jumping to unwarranted conclusions based on mere conjecture, literally nothing else to it

[SingularityNow]

Dude... that's what I'm doing (=discussion, talking about the game). I just rebutted your point because it seems to me you were jumping to unwarranted conclusions based on mere conjecture, literally nothing else to it

Unwarranted? Conjecture? Do you feel that anything here from any post other than a Blue Name is anything other than conjecture? And I'm sorry if you believe my opinion is unwarranted, but these are public forums. Yes, you need to get over yourself. Big time.

[TesalionLortus]

Not going to do that anymore. If you want, you can respond to what I suggested about the dev development process/game with other arguments. Rather than throw some bizarre accusations against me now.

[Hierona]

No they don't, they build level band by level band. Remember my point, the only way to go by level band adjacent to 140 is into forodwaith (I think that's the name) and I don't think you put a 150 zone there. maybe you do since ROP goes up there to visit Thangorodrim; but I doubt it.

It's connected by teleport. You have to get to after battle Minas Tirith.

It is connected to the Vales with Mordor Besieged. That don't mean that zones can not connect to lower or higher level areas. Mordor and Eryn Lasgalen are a similar thing and Mirkwood and Enedwaith too. Nan Curunir and The Great River are too. From Gundabad they can probably go anywhere now if just make a port to somewhere else. I feel Minas Tirith Midsummer is a good guess to continue book V there into Harad or Mordor with Nurn.

[itshuntah31]

The more I think about the Corsair ship, the more I feel like it was an intentional hint at where we are going next.

There's no way it was a bug like the rock, it was placed exactly on a river and in a way that seems deliberate (it is not floating or partly submerged, for example.)

I tried actually swimming to it, but it was impossible due to an invisible wall. The fact that SSG made it so easy to break the bounds UP UNTIL you can see the boat and then there is an invisible wall seems too coincidental.

Therefore, we have a couple possibilities for zones that feature corsairs. I think the biggest thing that determines whether a zone is likely is how easy it would be to create a connection to said zone without having the player stumble through a pre-Minas Tirith zone. If the player has to walk through Western Gondor to get to Anfalas, the fact that there are still so many Corsair camps even though the war with Sauron is over will be pretty immersion breaking.

They could just have us sail to a new zone like Umbar, but that goes against Scenario's philosophy of keeping everything connected.
Maybe they'll utilize the pretty "out of time" Cape of Belfalas or that awkward long path leading to Central Gondor as an excursion point for the island of Tolfalas?
The easiest zone (and the one it makes the most sense to) create a new after-battle version for is South Ithilien, as it already could naturally connect to the rest of March of the King. Maybe we will get that plus a bit of Southern Gondor?
Lastly, they could just use a portal at Anfalas to jump us forward in time.

[TesalionLortus]

The fact that SSG made it so easy to break the bounds UP UNTIL you can see the boat and then there is an invisible wall seems too coincidental.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly (I assume it wasn't patched either? Haven't been to check). Also, note how it's just quiet from the devs, vs - if that was a funny mistake or something - you would typically expect some fun throwaway comment :P But somehow they stay away from this

Therefore, we have a couple possibilities for zones that feature corsairs. I think the biggest thing that determines whether a zone is likely is how easy it would be to create a connection to said zone without having the player stumble through a pre-Minas Tirith zone. If the player has to walk through Western Gondor to get to Anfalas, the fact that there are still so many Corsair camps even though the war with Sauron is over will be pretty immersion breaking.

Placing it in a weird place like that though... certainly made me wet for some strange one-ship Corsairs adventure, somehow, somewhere. Rather than this big "ups, Corsair forces again!" But truth be told who can tell about the war time period issue - in practice, you got entire Rohan during war too, and that's literally in-between major areas of the game, so it's not exactly off for neighboring areas to be badly synced in time. Unless they went crazy and redone/recopied the whole of Gondor but in After layer and with clear skies. But... somehow I don't see the value? Better if they delved in some of these valleys or placed some additional cosmetic villages/cities throughout Gondor that we have, to make it feel more lived-in.


I remember them saying we'll go back to some "familiar places" first? Which could mean many things, like parts of Gondor, Rohan and Théoden's funeral, perhaps even Mordor (as a prelude to Borangos/Nurn), or back to Mirkwood and surroundings, and towards Rhun. True, the corsair ship would bring Gondor to mind, but then again, I'm not exactly keen on any ideas of Corsairs as a huge threat/concern right now, after the disastrous blow they suffered at Pelargil, and what Aragorn gotta do canonically is to outright reconquer Umbar, not make friends/alliances/pseudo-vassals of some of them (and any peace treaty achieved with the pirates who used to harass your coasts throughout history independently of any Sauron influences... holds no realpolitik value, but their fleet being down for the time being is enough of a practical assurance). So no idea, they can just push it and take us towards Umbar anyway for reasons but I don't believe there is any way that wouldn't make it look off (and exactly like they're pushing it) narratively. So makes me think the ship might really be a sort of early Minhiriath sneak peak, after all. Like, maybe they already have an idea to go there at some point and a stray Corsair ship might play a part in it.

PS: Also, I would really love for the next expansion to actually resolve some plot threads maybe? Soooo many of those...

[Arnand_the_Fox]

PS: Also, I would really love for the next expansion to actually resolve some plot threads maybe? Soooo many of those...

There's not too many more plot threads I could see them introducing at this point anyways. We've been to every major city, and pretty much every significantly inhabited region of western Middle Earth excpt like Lindon

[TesalionLortus]

There's not too many more plot threads I could see them introducing at this point anyways. We've been to every major city, and pretty much every significantly inhabited region of western Middle Earth excpt like Lindon

But exactly. It is where the lore and map details are sparse that they can actually introduce even more of these... and so far the track record was more plots/loose ends introduced than resolved for every major content release. Minas Morgul had the greatest number of these resolved to date I think (not counting the book's events), so like Gothmog, two of the Gurzyul dropped dead and Black Book resolved - but it still left us with plenty of things/characters actually introduced in the Black Book epic and then switched to Gundabad instead, which from earlier stuff, only really dealt with Hrimil but introduced 10 more or so.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

But exactly. It is where the lore and map details are sparse that they can actually introduce even more of these... and so far the track record was more plots/loose ends introduced than resolved for every major content release. Minas Morgul had the greatest number of these resolved to date I think (not counting the book's events), so like Gothmog, two of the Gurzyul dropped dead and Black Book resolved - but it still left us with plenty of things/characters actually introduced in the Black Book epic and then switched to Gundabad instead, which from earlier stuff, only really dealt with Hrimil but introduced 10 more or so.

I think that really leans on how much of what people think is "unresolved" is actually unresolved in the devs' minds, and how many of the plot threads we think are unresolved are actually the same plot thread, and we just don't know it yet.

Not to mention, things tend to seem the most complex right before the big reveal that its all connected. I can think of 27 new maps that would ultimately just resolve a large number of currently existing story arcs into a handful of larger stories. Tying the disaster in Rhun, all of the other Easterling/Blue Wizard/Ayorzén plots, the earth tremors, the Throkhar/other nameless plots, into one would be very easy. Throw in Tahar-Gafol(sp) and the Minstrel class prophecy for good measure.

[Feral_Yoda]

If they didn't want to redo South Ithilien they could easily just start with Harondor at the road/blockcade/gate there at the edge of the map... or Take us through Nurn and/or Near Harad first on the way to Umbar. We don't always seem to take the most direct path places.

As far as the corsair fleet... the majority of it was lost at Peligir but that doesn't mean that was the entirety of it. There were a fair number that were off the coast of Belfalas and inbetween the two cities. Any number of those (and more further west and south), and even some back home around Umbar could still exist.

Harondor would be hope as it would be interesting to see the remains and ramification of what a conquered area of Gondor would look like. It fell quite awhile ago if i remember my lore right and was basically ruled over by the Haradrim and corsairs. There has to be lots of interesting stories there. Even if most consider it a desolate land.

[miriadel]

joining Aragorn and Eomer in their road trip East seems a solid potential thread. After all, that's what they went on to do after the wedding (that we already have in game, it just needs to connect to a new epic book), eradicate the easterlings and Mumak menaces, and a pit stop at Nurn to officially give the land to the Mordor human slaves (of which we already have a quest chain that plays in Talath Urui)

or it can be none of these things. After Mordor, what the devs have been doing is make up their own stories. basically, fanfiction within the licensed material. So, they can do whatever they want, wherever they want, there doesn't need to be any connection

[TesalionLortus]

joining Aragorn and Eomer in their road trip East seems a solid potential thread. After all, that's what they went on to do after the wedding (that we already have in game, it just needs to connect to a new epic book), eradicate the easterlings and Mumak menaces

In Fourth Age, unspecified when (so that's something to play with) and these would be many different trips no doubt, but in Fourth.

[miriadel]

oh yeah, I forgot about that... still, he could perhaps send us there as sort of "scout, assess the situation for the immediate future". There surely is a hook that the story devs can use

[Arnand_the_Fox]

joining Aragorn and Eomer in their road trip East seems a solid potential thread. After all, that's what they went on to do after the wedding (that we already have in game, it just needs to connect to a new epic book), eradicate the easterlings and Mumak menaces, and a pit stop at Nurn to officially give the land to the Mordor human slaves (of which we already have a quest chain that plays in Talath Urui)

or it can be none of these things. After Mordor, what the devs have been doing is make up their own stories. basically, fanfiction within the licensed material. So, they can do whatever they want, wherever they want, there doesn't need to be any connection

Minor correction here, the Mumakil come from the south, not the East. And Aragorn wouldn't "eradicate" either. Slap the Easterlings around a bit, to show them Gondor isn't to be taken lightly, sure. Though, at this point, with Rhun in... well... ruins due to whatever catastrophe happened there, I don't see much need for Aragorn and Eomer to ride East any time soon. That's just punching people while they're down.

If anything I would more suspect the Blue Wizards coming a bit more east, trying to take care of the Easterlings fleeing to the Dale Lands and surrounding areas, asking Gandalf/the player for help in dealing with whatever the problem is.

[miriadel]

of course I didn't say "eradicate" literally XD just like he doesn't go do a "road trip" but serious business.

[Phantion]

You mean the thing that never existed? That was never the game we were making, and thank goodness for that. Realistic travel times would have prevented us from telling *any* of the storylines we wanted to tell, including those from LotR proper, and would have made for a very short-lived game indeed. Would there have been an audience for that? Sure! A tiny one.

I'd have played it, and I'm sure you and some of the other geography fans would have too, but this is better.

MoL

Dear MoL,

Thanks so much for this! I'm sorry if my post sounded a bit off or irritating - not my intention! Actually, I want to say that this shows how awesome your game really is.

Get this:

It took me till Great River to realize the true scale of LOTRO's game-world. That means that I thought LOTRO was lore-geographically accurate all the way up till that point. That means you and your whole Team more than exceeded in your jobs with me: you caught me under that magic spell ALL that way through the game - and even with me knowing the game's real scale now, you still do. That theme in Cardolan . . . Bill Champagne sure outdid himself on that main running theme of the zone. Perfection.

So, actually: thank you - and I absolutely do agree with you. It is much better!

I'd say I'd only wish there was some way you and Scenario could consider, when South Farthing enters the game someday, to maybe... alter/expand a few locations in the southern Shire. Yondershire is very successful and more on LOTRO's main map scale. I do wish there was some more distance between the Abandoned Elf Camp and the Road, the Elf Camp and Woodhall, and the Marish / Bamfurlong - so that... just on LOTRO's own scale, things could feel more distanced from each other in those areas. I know it would probably take a ton of work . . . but I really think it would be very well-worth the effort - especially if you considered doing it by expanding southward

It would be cool to see other missing things added - like the footbridge Frodo, Sam, and Pippin cross southwest of Bag End, the large hollow fir tree where they spent the night near Green Hill Country, the place where they woke up and heard the Nazgul's wailing, maybe have a more prominent bush where the Hobbits hid from the Black Rider looming right above them, etc. Even if it's more, like with Tyrn Gorthad, doing this by expanding more southward (*a very smart move to expand Old Forest / Barrow-downs without having to remove a lot of current stuff from its locations) . . . I think it could do a world of good for the southern Shire while keeping things on LOTRO's overall scale. So maybe that Road in Green Hill Country winds a bit more south before it circles back to Odo's Leaf Farm and maybe it goes a lot more south of the Abandoned Elf Camp to fill-in with more of the trees and shrubs Tolkien describes Gildor's Company leading the Hobbits through and so on (*while leaving current questing areas / locations more or less in place, including Narrowcleave, etc.).

I don't think you'd need to really worry about "the game could feel too big in the starter areas" after Yondershire and CardoSwan; making Eriador feel far more wide and open so far to me has been a great positive! It's a relief to not feel like I'm on a Disney World ride and these are the "railroad tracks" the ride goes through!

You're all awesome! Thanks for keeping Middle-earth alive and thriving these many years!

Cheers!

[k40rne]

Much agreed!


Now, about their story problem, where they demand that the Redhorn Pass be blocked in Volume II:

A- Move the avalanche slightly higher and place a "kill-wall" there, much as with the very closed Black Gate in the Wastes. After reaching say level 120, you can complete a quest that opens up the Pass.

B- Said quest would also open a previously sealed / phased-and-invisible-walled passage collapsed by boulders while level 59 --- breaking open the Redhorn Pass only at level 120+ after completing said quest.

I still can't understand for the life of me, with their tech with "Black Gate closed" vs. "Black Gate opened," why they couldn't do something similar with the Redhorn: keeping the pass closed for Volume II for story purposes, opening the pass later post-War-of-the-Ring (*which would help with Galadriel and company returning that way also).

Cheers!

They could also do this without the need for a new quest because the phasing tech developed in S. Mirkwood allows us to be gated whether or not we had that Epic quest completely already. Consequently they could do this for Central, Eastern and Old Anorien Gondor's red Skies to become blue skies by changing the Dayfile(s) based on if you completed the quest that allowed you to enter Mordor or not.
.

[k40rne]

I wish @Scenario will bring us a casual stroll on Cardolan & Swanfleet the sooner, the better.

As for the thread, once we know the next landscape content, I'd like to start guessing the one after this. Given that SSG seems to avoid contiguity between zones with very different levels and that the next release should be level cap, I'd vote for Harondor.

Maybe Garan or the best explorers here have some piece of news about what's next.

I think it's Umbar as well. Severlin stated many times "we can smell the sea salt". They specifically stated it won't be the Grey Havens yet (although that don't rule out Forlond and Harlond exactly), Scenario said it was very far from Minhiriath, so it shouldn't be Lond Daer. Scenario also said he liked & was reusing the Dol Guldor fortress road (there are probably the biggest clues here). So it only leaves a few places. Anfalas and Far Gondor which wouldn't make a lot of sense. Sea of Rhun seems a bit unlikely as you'd have to build a long way into Rhun first. Sea of Nurn is possible, but also quite unlikely. The most likely answer is Umbar (ties in with the Rings of Power also) although it is pretty far south, in Harad, even past Harondor. But it would allow the whole Thorongil story to come forward.

I'll just say this, I had guessed after Wildwood they were likely going to work on the Greenway, and connect the Royal road to Eastern Enedwaith, but if they didn't specifically state it's too soon for Mithlond, then i'd assume it would be that - even without them mentioning "sea salt".

[Phantion]

I think it's Umbar as well. Severlin stated many times "we can smell the sea salt". They specifically stated it won't be the Grey Havens yet (although that don't rule out Forlond and Harlond exactly), Scenario said it was very far from Minhiriath, so it shouldn't be Lond Daer. Scenario also said he liked & was reusing the Dol Guldor fortress road (there are probably the biggest clues here). So it only leaves a few places. Anfalas and Far Gondor which wouldn't make a lot of sense. Sea of Rhun seems a bit unlikely as you'd have to build a long way into Rhun first. Sea of Nurn is possible, but also quite unlikely. The most likely answer is Umbar (ties in with the Rings of Power also) although it is pretty far south, in Harad, even past Harondor. But it would allow the whole Thorongil story to come forward.

I'll just say this, I had guessed after Wildwood they were likely going to work on the Greenway, and connect the Royal road to Eastern Enedwaith, but if they didn't specifically state it's too soon for Mithlond, then i'd assume it would be that - even without them mentioning "sea salt".

I actually think the little tidbit you give here about "reusing the Dol Guldor fortress road" does start to make Nurn a more likely candidate IF they view it as a "salt water inland sea."

It's adjacent-south of Gorgoroth - so connected with existing landscape. It's Mordor's "bread basket" - so it would have conditions suitable for growing crops unlike the lands surrounding Mount Doom. We know from the quests hunting the Nine in Mordor Besieged that there are indeed dark fortresses in Nurn that some of the Nine lorded over.

So . . . would Dol Guldor-ish roads make sense connecting those dark fortresses to each other, to give it a little bit of a different look than Gorgoroth while keeping Sauron's dark mark on it? Yes.

Umbar . . . maybe, if there's a dark fortress that Sauron's servants use to "lord" over the haven. It's still possible. But Umbar also has a substantial Gondorian and Numenorean history to it as well . . . so, Dol Guldor's roads wouldn't come first to my mind - though it's still possible!

I think we can pretty much narrow it down to Umbar, Nurn, or a complete surprise none of us can foresee. We know, at least, there are no Dol Guldor-ish roads in Lindon! Hehehehehe!

Cheers!